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Slush Piles?

Charles Jeffries 🚫

After finishing up my most recent story, my partner (who is used to reading fanfic, and had been beta-reading for me all along) asked if I was going to post a Slush Pile at the end of it.

If you, like me, don't recognize that term, it basically means "the collection of stuff you rewrote or edited out that didn't make it into the final text, sometimes with additional author commentary on why".

I don't see people posting slush piles around here, and I wonder whether it would be considered "bad form" (as it's sort of padding your story length stats), or whether there's a sense that readers don't care, or maybe some other reason why not.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

I don't have slush piles because if I edit something out, I don't save it.

Otherwise, it's just like a movie showing deleted scenes.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

I don't have slush piles because if I edit something out, I don't save it.

Otherwise, it's just like a movie showing deleted scenes.

I agree, if I cut something, I either rewrite the passage entirely, or the scene really doesn't fit the story. 'Slush pile' indicates there is enough content to compose a self-contained story in itself (i.e. an independent subplot which got chopped, rather than edited changes).

I'd rather readers DON'T rank my sub-par rumblings, who why expose ourselves to needless ridicule or criticisms?

Now, I do have some completed stories which ended up getting cut (during editing) before they were scheduled to be published, largely due to continuity flaws which I couldn't correct without wrecking the story. But again, if it's not suitable for publishing, why diminish my reputation with an obviously problematic story.

I could see publishing it under a pseudonym, so posting it wouldn't besmirch my reputation, but … it that case, where do you draw the line between 'fairly good' and 'outright dreck'?

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

Pretty much the same. I do have some deleted text (for instance, the Book 1 plot to manipulate Angie's inheritance to launder gambling profits is considerably different from where it was before my editors pushed changes, and I still have the original text.

I'm not sure that's interesting, though. Certainly reading it wouldn't add that much. Knowing it's been changed is probably more interesting.

I do have a large volume of notes indicating plotlines that I expected to go differently than they did. That's not a slush pile. It might be worth a blog entry, or two or three or ten :)

In the spirit of the original question - I can see a case where an author wrote e.g. an ending that they found unsatisfying. If they still had it, posting it might be interesting, in the same way that a 'deleted scene' ending can be interesting for film. Some readers might prefer the deleted ending.

Relatively uncommon, though, I think, and it might change the story into something of a 'choose your own adventure'.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

I'm like StarFleet Carl, in that if it's edited out it's gone.

However, I've always understood a 'slush pile' for an author as being the list of works in progress or finished stories deemed not ready to publish yet. While for a publisher it's the list of submitted manuscripts not yet checked to see if it's worth publishing.

helmut_meukel 🚫
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

While for a publisher it's the list of submitted manuscripts not yet checked to see if it's worth publishing

In John Ringo's Princess of Wands is a description of a slush party (Book two, Chapter 11). It starts with

"Why don't you come down to the room?" Larry said, gesturing down the corridor. "We're having a slush party."
"What's a slush party?" Barb said, uneasily.
"First con?" Angie asked, waving the way.
"Yes?" Barbara replied. It was unlikely that she was being lured away to be axed, but she also wasn't used to being invited to a hotel room except by drunken businessmen who ignored her ring.
"Slush is the stories that are submitted to the magazine," Larry said. "It just . . . piles up. There's no way to stay ahead of it. So from time to time we bring it all to a con and invite people in to read it. That gets ninety percent, at least, thrown out. Then we can concentrate on the rest."
"That seems a bit . . . brutal," Barb said as she got to a half open door and followed Angie in. "I mean, people work hard on those stories. You just let anyone . . . toss them out?"
"Wait until you read some of them," Angie said, laughing.

It's not only the list but literally the pile(s) of unasked-for manuscripts.

HM.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

the pile(s) of unasked-for manuscripts.

My understanding is that it's the piles of manuscripts that are not bad enough to warrant immediate rejection but don't leap out and grab the publisher either. In times of desperation, leafing through the slush pile can produce a story or a book to fill a hole in a schedule or quota.

AJ

Vincent Berg 🚫

@helmut_meukel

It's not only the list but literally the pile(s) of unasked-for manuscripts.

The idea then is that you get someone (i.e. anyone to doublecheck, just in case it's not actually a wonderful piece of literature begging to be developed and published for a million sales! I dare say that most of the SOL 'never-published' stories would barely reach a score of 4.0 (i.e. not crap storytelling, or even gay toilet training, but more likely promising stories with utterly unsatisfactory ending)!

Charles Jeffries 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Yeah, I guess I should have said; I'm aware of the general-publishing definition of the term and that it's different, but I'm using the fanfic-specific definition above for the sake of this discussion.

The point of this wasn't the definition, it's the question of whether posting the "cutting room floor" bits is worthwhile or interesting.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

I've not heard this odd fanfic definition until now.

As to removed stuff being shown after it: I can see the point of showing funny cut scenes at the end of a film, but I see no point or relevance in including cut text at the end of a book. Heck, it's hard enough to get people to read the cast lists and any tech manuals to help them understand the story, so why clog the space with scenes you felt weren't good enough to leave in the story?

AmigaClone 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

The point of this wasn't the definition, it's the question of whether posting the "cutting room floor" bits is worthwhile or interesting.


Sir Arthur C. Clarke
wrote 'The Lost Worlds of 2001'. That book is a combination journal and 'cutting room floor' scenes that never made it to the final book. I think some scenes might have been early concepts of ideas that after some changes appear in '2001 a Space Odyssey' novel.

Radagast 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

Spider Robinson had this to say back in 1979. From 'Time Travellers Strictly Cash':

Five years ago Jim Baen was the editor of Galaxy magazine, in the process of making it the second-best-selling magazine in the business. I was a novice sf writer, with no novels and fewer than half a dozen short stories published. Jim had bought exactly one of these for Galaxy (well, it was the only one I showed him), and a couple of times when I'd passed through New York he had thrown me a double saw-buck for a day's worth of reading slushpile. "Slush" is the technical term for unsolicited manuscripts, and for about 99.6% of them, it is a very charitable description indeed. The remaining four tenths of a percent are what keeps sf alive and growing, and in particular they were what was keeping Galaxy alive and growing five years ago, as the publisher gave Jim a monthly budget of two cheese sandwiches, a firkin of salt and a buffalo nickel with which to produce the magazine. Furthermore each month's budget tended to actually leave the accounting department in the following fiscal year, or worse. Jim needed his slush combed pretty thoroughly. (I wish to note here that to my knowledge Jim always warned his writers at point-of-sale to expect late payment. I have known editors less forthright.)

The above is part of an essay on becoming the SciFi reviewer for Galaxy and later for Analog, titled 'Spider Vs the Hax of Sol III.
I thought this line would appeal to our authors:

A critic tells you whether or not it's Art; a reviewer tells you whether or not it's any damn good to read."

whisperclaw 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

I think appending it to the story would just be a distraction. However, after I published a story here I followed up with a few blog posts with additional background info that was more like a "director's commentary." If you have "slush" you want to share, I think that would be the better way to do it without muddying up the final version of the story.

Replies:   Radagast  monkeysmut
Radagast 🚫

@whisperclaw

In Dead Tree Press, Wen Spencer published several of her deleted scenes as interesting filler in, IIRC, Project Elfhome. She also stopped publishing new works shortly afterwards. She has a nice steady income from Patreon and appears to be competing with Robert Jordan and George R.R. Martin for who can take the longest to publish the next installment in a series.
The all time winner for publishing deleted scenes has to be Christopher Tolkien. Sadly, he left for the Grey Havens last year.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@Radagast

She also stopped publishing new works shortly afterwards

Publishing date for her next book in the Elfhome universe – Harbinger – is 4/5/2022.

HM.

monkeysmut 🚫

@whisperclaw

Oh, huh. I hadn't thought about using the blog for that, that's a good idea. There is the limitation that old blog posts get deleted eventually, but that might be okay.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

I'm not sure why you would want to do that. If it adds to the story, it shouldn't be cut. By cutting it, you're saying the story is better without it.

It's not like scenes cut from a movie. Those are typically done to keep the showing time down.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It's not like scenes cut from a movie. Those are typically done to keep the showing time down.

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

Don't know about books but it's different from (tv) movies that are edited to a very exact length and with specific predefined points to slice in commercials. Books are lot more lenient in that way so I suspect that editing just to cut the length is not common. Books that are to long are more likely to be split into two and editing is to create a sensible split point.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Keet

Books that are to long are more likely to be split into two and editing is to create a sensible split point.

Different lengths are targeted in different genre and what happens if the publisher thinks it's too long for one book, but not long enough to make two books?

Dominions Son 🚫

@Keet

Don't know about books but it's different from (tv) movies that are edited to a very exact length and with specific predefined points to slice in commercials.

The highlighted portion would only be true for TV. Theatrical releases of feature films do NOT all have exactly the same run time.

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

The highlighted portion would only be true for TV. Theatrical releases of feature films do NOT all have exactly the same run time.

But they do try to keep movies to some viewing time. The longer films don't allow as many showings in the theater as shorter ones. Definitely not the same as TV, though.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dominions Son

Theatrical releases of feature films do NOT all have exactly the same run time.

The vast majority range anywhere from 1.25 to 3 hours. Anything outside of that is unlikely to ever see the light of day outside of a televised broadcast that's likely to be cut mid-season due to poor ratings on a less-than stellar network (i.e. between reruns of 'Two and a half Men' and 'The Golden Girls').

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

The vast majority range anywhere from 1.25 to 3 hours.

But it's an almost continuous range between those two end points vs made for TV series which are either 30 minutes or 1 hour (less commercial breaks), with nothing at all in between.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Somewhat picky point: broadcast TV. The majority of what's considered 'TV' nowadays - at least in the US - are cable or streaming shows where show length varies quite a bit. The cable services will insert filler if they need to round off to match the start time of the next thing; streaming services simply don't care.

The Emmys (managed by the 'Television Academy') consider streaming shows to be 'television'.

Yes, this is a very recent change, but it's the way of the world in 2021.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Grey Wolf

are cable or streaming shows where show length varies quite a bit.

Actually the streaming shows may vary, but cable shows other than sports or movies tend to stick to the 30 minutes or 1 hour TV (less commercials) format from broadcast TV. The only real exception to this are the premium commercial free cable networks (like HBO and Showtime) that you have to pay extra for above the cost of a basic cable hook up.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

Not sure how things have changed over time, since I don't watch them that much anymore, but both MTV and Nickelodeon (among others) used to run odd-length shows relatively commonly, filling the gaps between shows with videos, shorts, ads for other shows, etc.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Those used to be commercial free premium networks, but both worked to get themselves onto basic cable packages and that changes things.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

I watched MTV on the day it launched, and it was basic cable at the time, at least on our provider. Not sure about Nickelodeon, though.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Keet

Don't know about books but it's different from (tv) movies that are edited to a very exact length and with specific predefined points to slice in commercials. Books are lot more lenient in that way so I suspect that editing just to cut the length is not common. Books that are to long are more likely to be split into two and editing is to create a sensible split point.

Actually, mainstream publishers will often have specific word limits on stories. They'll go over them for well-known authors, or for works which appear to be promising, but if a story is so long that it wouldn't be worth publishing it in either paperback or hardback (i.e. print form), then it's just not worth it and if necessary, they'd simply require it be rewritten as a series instead.

Independent, online publishing doesn't have any of those problems, as there's no specific 'page count' costs, so they can be as long as the author wants them to be!

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

I believe the first Harry Potter was pruned significantly. After JKR became a roaring success, she had much more editorial control over her books, hence all the bloatware.

AJ

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Dominions Son

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

yes, there are times they do get cut.

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

Yes, they do. The example that leaps to mind is the The Stand, by Stephen King. It was originally published in abridged form, lopping off 150,000 words.

About ten years later, The Complete and Uncut Edition was published containing much of the material that had been edited out.

One key thing missing from the abridged version is 'Trans Can Man' meeting 'The Kid' and their cross-country journey.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

At the risk of irritating the typo gods - Trans Can Man would be a rather different character ;).

I'm a fan of the longer edition, but that's probably not a surprise, given the sort of story I'm writing. King is a great argument against 'Chekhov's Gun' for those who like that sort of story. His works would, in general, be lesser if someone had required that everything that happened (or even every second or third thing) aid the core plot.

I've always felt that 'The Stand' is beautifully flawed. It's a terrific work, a great read, engaging characters, good story (possibly excepting the primary resolution) - but it's entirely and painfully U.S.-centric. Even given the limitations of a post-apocalyptic world, the odds that 'only Americans need apply' in a cosmic showdown between good and evil is fairly low. If nothing else, considerable lip service should've been paid to the paucity of non-American involvement with some explanation given. Characters should have noted that both Good and Evil seem to be a little lax at recruiting.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Dominions Son

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

Yes, they do.
About 1960 to 1980 the major German publishers of pocketbook editions of original English SF and crime novels had a strict page limit for those books. All had the same number of pages. They cut some books significantly, even crippling the story.

HM.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@helmut_meukel

About 1960 to 1980 the major German publishers of pocketbook editions of original English SF and crime novels had a strict page limit for those books.

Those a genre-specific limits, based on the perceived demands of the genre audience (ex: Romance used to be routinely mostly short 'beach-read' length, until fairly recently, when they started to reach near Saga level lengths.

But even there, the primary determinant is the cost of print publishing, not what the readers are or are not willing to read, only what the publisher is willing to underwrite!

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

About 1960 to 1980 the major German publishers of pocketbook editions of original English SF and crime novels had a strict page limit for those books.

Those a genre-specific limits, based on the perceived demands of the genre audience

The problem I see: they cut the probably already abridgedβ€”by the US publisherβ€”American text during the translation process.
Only the German publishers did this while the Austrian publishers translated and published the same story unabridged, causing two different German language versions.
The readers were unaware of this, but even if someone knew of it, he couldn't buy the other version due to restrictions where they could be sold. A customer had to cross the German/Austrian border to buy the other version!

In the eighties one publisher (Heyne) reissued some books now in new, unabridged translations. About the same time another publisher (Bastei) who was formerly known as publisher of dime novels and pulp magazines started to publish unabridged translations of older US novels. Checking out some of these unabridged versions I realized the original German publications were cut by up to 40%!

BTW, there was no notice in the original German editions that they were abridged!

That some series started in German translations with volume three or four and in most cases the earlier books got never published in German added to my decision to read the books in their original language. German booksellers back then had no English books on display and the prices were exorbitant high.

Apart from book shops in international airports and capital railroad stations I bought most of my books back then during visits to Switzerland, Denmark and Great Britain. When Amazon started in Germany I became an Amazon fan.

HM.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

Don't dead tree books sometimes get edited for length?

Length is taken into account when selecting a novel to publish. Longer novels cost more. As to editing them down, my guess is that's done to make the novel stronger. The best movie I saw on that subject was "Genius" about Thomas Wolfe and his editor "Max Perkins."

richardshagrin 🚫

@Charles Jeffries

"Piles are collections of tissue and vein that become inflamed and swollen. Β· The size of piles can vary, and they are found inside or outside the anus." "Hemorrhoids (HEM-uh-roids), also called piles, are swollen veins in your anus and lower rectum, similar to varicose veins."

So it looks like slush can cause piles. The meaning of slush may be more complicated. "The word 'slush' was coined in 17th century England as the name for half-melted snow and is first referred to in print with that meaning in Henry Best's Rural Economy in Yorkshire, 1641. Of course, that's where the name Slushies, the part-frozen flavoured drinks, came from.

A century later, there was an alternative meaning of 'slush', or 'slosh', which was the fat or grease obtained from meat boiled on board ship. That invaluable guide The Gentleman's Magazine, 1756, referred to it like this:

He used much slush (the rancid fat of pork) among his victuals.

William Thompson made it sound even less appetising in The Royal Navy-men's Advocate, 1757:

Tars whose Stomachs are not very squeamish, can bear to paddle their Fingers in stinking Slush.

Despite it not being the apex of culinary delight it was considered a perk for ships' cooks and crew and they sold the fat that they gathered from cooking meat whenever they reached port. This perquisite became known as a 'slush fund' and the term joins the numerous English phrases that first saw the light of day at sea.

The author William McNally didn't think much of the practice and included a description of it in Evils & Abuses in Naval & Merchant Service, 1839:

The sailors in the navy are allowed salt beef. From this provision, when cooked nearly all the fat boils off; this is carefully skimmed and put into empty beef or pork barrels, and sold, and the money so received is called the slush fund.

In the same year, The Army and Navy Chronicle suggested that a ship's slush fund would be a suitable source of money to buy books for the crew:

To give men the use of such books as would best suit their taste, would be to appropriate what is their own, (viz.) the slush fund for the purchase of such works.

This is the beginning of the meaning we now have for 'slush fund', that is, money put aside to make use of when required. The use of such savings for improper uses like bribes or the purchase of influence began in the USA not long afterwards. The Congressional Record for January 1894 printed this:

[Cleveland] was not elected in 1888 because of pious John Wanamaker and his $400,000 of campaign slush funds.

Slush fundInto the 20th century and we head straight for one of The Simpsons' many cultural references and back to the original meaning of 'slush fund'. In the 1998 episode Lard of the Dance, Homer and Bart instigate a scheme to make money by collecting and selling grease. They try to siphon Groundskeeper Willie's stashed vat of rancid fat from the school kitchen. A fight breaks out over what is clearly Willie's slush fund or, in 20th century cartoon parlance, his 'retirement grease'."

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@richardshagrin

"Piles are collections of tissue and vein that become inflamed and swollen. Β· The size of piles can vary, and they are found inside or outside the anus." "Hemorrhoids (HEM-uh-roids), also called piles, are swollen veins in your anus and lower rectum, similar to varicose veins."

Thus, 'Slush Piles' are the result of drinking too many frozen prune slushies too quickly!

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