Forum: Author Hangout

Plotting and POV

JoeBobMack 🚫

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm in the "mushy middle" of the first draft of my current WIP. I'm working my way out of it, which mostly involves re-working my chapter summaries document because the book as written had diverged too far from the book as planned. I got things cleared up and made good progress for several chapters, but, I've just finished a draft of a key chapter and it, too, is different in some critical ways from the summary.

Reviewing the chapter I wrote and comparing it to the chapter summary I plotted, I realize there are events, outcomes, and developments in the summary that simply couldn't get in the chapter given the point-of-view character I used. In fact, there is no POV character that could give me everything I planned. Plus, the characters demanded some things happen differently once I started writing. Okay. Just need to re-work the summary to match and think about what scenes I need to move the overall storyline along.

What I've realized from this is that I do my initial planning for a book from pretty much an omniscient POV, but then write in either 1st person or 3rd close. At the big picture stage, I'm not in a character's head. When I write, I am, and it makes a difference.

I'm not unhappy about this or trying to "fix" it; I do this for fun and am just trying to learn and grow and tell a story that I'm enjoying. But, the thoughts of others here have helped me learn, so I thought I'd mention this. Anyone with similar experiences? Insights? Lessons learned?

Replies: Vincent Berg REP Switch Blayde Switch Blayde StarFleet Carl

Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Personally, it sounds like your putting too much emphasis of your plot summary (which I assume is actually your story outline?). As a story unfolds, they almost invariably drift from what was originally intended, and it's always been thus. Even for the mainstream publishers that require a formal outline before authorizing advanced payments, there's no 'penalty' to changes to the basic plot before publication. The summary shows (supposedly) that you've thought the story out and are 'on track' and heading in the right direction, but few ever stick religiously to the story outline.

When I stated that I write from the summary, since it states in few words the underlying primary story conflicts (the main conflict in the short summary, and the secondary conflicts in the detailed summaries used on most distribution sites), I frequently have to modify the summary. This is especially true once I've written most of the first draft and actually know where the story is going, as it provides a renewed focus on what's most vital about the story (i.e. conflicts change over time).

But my latest book is a prime example. The story features someone who gets glimpses of the future and receives messages from beyond the grave. Given the open-ended nature of the book, it was hard to control the story at first, as I'd write a short diversion and it would consume most of the chapter. As a result, I'd frequently have to 'revise' each chapter 2 or 3 times to 'rein in' the story spoilers (things planned several chapters in advance which got revealed in each chapter).

Then, as I got into the heart of the book, that became less of an issue as I was focusing on the story's main plot points/issues. However, the pacing was problematic and the chapter lengths dropped significants (5,000 - 6,000 down to 3,000 - 4,000).

That's when I finally got a handle on the story, as those 'out of control' diversions were actually the glue holding the story together. While I still needed to keep a tight rein on them, they kept the tensions consistent, keeping each chapter exciting, even as the story built with few dramatic surprises. Now, that story is once more flowing, and I'm struggling to keep up as the story once again takes on a life of it's own.

In the end, certain stories are so open ended that it's difficult corralling and riding herd on them, but there's generally a way of managing the story--once you get a feel for it--where the story can flow without washing away the underlying plot.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Vincent Berg

The summary shows (supposedly) that you've thought the story out and are 'on track' and heading in the right direction, but few ever stick religiously to the story outline.

Yes, yes! That's the way it feels. Once I have chapter summaries that create a book that seems to make sense, I can start to write. But, eventually, I get to a point where the chapter summary just doesn't express what needs to happen. Maybe it's just that my characters really wouldn't do what I've written in the way I've written. Or, maybe something else needs to happen. Or, maybe the whole point of that chapter no longer fits. The big picture of the book will likely still be headed toward the same end, but the path to get there needs to change!

Now, that story is once more flowing, and I'm struggling to keep up as the story once again takes on a life of it's own.

Exactly. Once I get the knot unraveled and have new sequence of chapter summaries from the sticking point forward, I can find the right POV character, the motivations and reactions make sense, and chapters flow easily. Until I hit another sticking point! It's back and forth between my omniscient big picture and telling the story as the "lived reality" of the characters.

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Maybe it's just that my characters really wouldn't do what I've written in the way I've written.

That's actually evidence of successful writing, when you define the characters well enough, that they (the characters themselves) what they'd do in any particular setting, and if you ask them to do something that runs counter to their natural inclinations, they'll balk. (By the way, that's also the most common cause of writers' block, when the characters refuse to comply with an author's demands and the writing freezes up, though it's usually easily rectified once to determine where you've gone wrong.)

maybe the whole point of that chapter no longer fits.

Like everything else, consider your outline as a tool, rather than a requirement. It's designed to give you direction, but not to dictate how you proceed. When the story starts drifting, trust yourself to keep it in check, and then let it go, just to see where it takes you.

In the end, you really don't need an authoritative outline. No one is ever going to 'review' your outline and determine whether you adhered to it or not. It's only purpose it to get you started, and as long as the story works, no one really cares how you got there.

Once I get the knot unraveled and have new sequence of chapter summaries from the sticking point forward, I can find the right POV character, the motivations and reactions make sense, and chapters flow easily.

That's your sticky wicket. You need to have a good feel for the story, where it's going and where it's likely to end up, in order to determine the optimal POV to employ. As you've noted, making the wrong choice and substantially curtail what story elements you can reveal or even employ in your story. However, they are usually 'work arounds' for those cases where you get yourself into trouble.

REP 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I have found that when I try to control the path a story takes to match an outline, I end up with scenes that do not go and fit together the way I envisioned.

I have learned to define the start and end of the story, and to define key milestones/scenes I want to include. Then when I write the story, I let the scenes develop as they will and adapt my roadmap for future chapters to fit what I wrote. Eventually, I include most of the scenes that I defined at the start, and just accept that the planned scenes not included, just didn't fit into the evolving story. I like to think that the end result is an integrated set of scenes that flow from one to the next smoothly when read.

Replies: JoeBobMack Switch Blayde Switch Blayde

JoeBobMack 🚫

@REP

I have learned to define the start and end of the story, and to define key milestones/scenes I want to includ

Yes, once I've gone from basic concept to a bare outline to chapter summaries, it seems I usually have some key plot points that I know have to be there. The rest can morph a little (or a lot) or, as you say, drop away, as the book actually gets written.

I let the scenes develop as they will and adapt my roadmap for future chapters to fit what I wrote.

Thank you. That seems to fit my experience.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@REP

I have learned to define the start and end of the story, and to define key milestones/scenes I want to include. Then when I write the story, I let the scenes develop as they will and adapt my roadmap for future chapters to fit what I wrote.

That's how I do it.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@REP

I let the scenes develop as they will and adapt my roadmap for future chapters to fit what I wrote.

Or often, for those of us who don't use a detailed outline up front, go back and add/change things in already written chapters to accommodate what you are now writing in future chapters.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫

@Switch Blayde

You can include me in that group. I define major scenes without outlining them. As I write, I decide which scene(s) to include next. Typically, I am integrating multiple scenes at the same time. When a chapter hits about 20 pages, I find a good breakpoint and start a new chapter; no chapter outlines.

Updating existing chapters for changes in chapters currently being written is normal for me. That is why I don't post until all chapters have been written, revised, and edited.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I do my initial planning for a book from pretty much an omniscient POV, but then write in either 1st person or 3rd close.

That's a big mistake. One of the first things the author needs to decide is the POV of the story.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

One of the first things the author needs to decide is the POV of the story.

That might be best practice but I know from my hibernating writers' group that's not how many writers work. It's not uncommon for writers to start a story and even get most of the way through before deciding that it isn't working and they need to change the POV. And that can be a long and painful process.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde JoeBobMack

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

It's not uncommon for writers to start a story and even get most of the way through before deciding that it isn't working and they need to change the POV.

I was addressing POV as in omniscient, limited, 1st, etc., but who the POV character is is probably even more critical to decide up front.

Think of the novel "To Kill a Mockingbird." It's written in 1st-person from Scout's POV (the young girl) so it's a coming of age story. Imagine how different the story would be if the POV character was her father, the lawyer. That would be the novel Grisham would write. It would be a legal story. Or what would the story be like if written from the black man's POV? A much different story.

I can't understand how you can start a story without knowing who the POV character is up front.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

I was addressing POV as in omniscient, limited, 1st, etc., but who the POV character is is probably even more critical to decide up front.

In the writers' group the biggest problem seems to be between first and third, so you're right about the POV character. Whether it's limited or omni comes a very distant 3rd place (if at all).

AJ

JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

It's not uncommon for writers to start a story and even get most of the way through before deciding that it isn't working and they need to change the POV.

I should have been more clear. The first book in this series is 1st person POV, and I had that character and the crucial initiating scene as the very earliest idea for the book. So, that book is 1st person.

However, the overall story involves a growing group of individuals coming into contact with magic and shaping its entry into the world by their own unique situations and strengths. When I got to the second book, I realized I just couldn't do that by staying with my main character's 1st person POV. So, I shifted to using multiple 3rd person limited POV, one POV per chapter (average of 2,500 words per chapter).

As I'm working out the general structure of a book, I get an idea of what's got to happen. I lay out the main events, then begin writing brief chapter summaries (I try to be brief - sometimes ideas flow and, yeah). I try to have a POV character in mind as I write those summaries, but I'm often not fully shifted out of the big picture mode. So, for example, I just finished a critical chapter in book 4 where one of my characters foils a robbery attempt. I didn't decide the POV character at the time I wrote the chapter summary, but, when it came time to write, I chose another female character with the action taker at the time But, the chapter summary included some additional ideas about how this action would result in publicity that would affect things, witness statements, photos taken, etc. No way my POV character can deliver that, so now I have to decide how to get that in.

I am trying with each book to more carefully think through the chapter summaries, but, at some point, I just have trouble getting that deep into the POV character without just starting to write. In fact, bits of dialog and description can end up in my summaries. Even more than just bits when I'm not careful. When that starts to happen too much, I just go ahead and start writing, figuring I'll work things out as I go along.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

experiences? Insights? Lessons learned?

When my first novel was rejected by a traditional publisher with feedback like, "show don't tell" and "don't head-hop," I had no idea what those terms meant. So I researched them and that's when I began studying (and hopefully learning) the craft of writing fiction.

I rewrote that novel many times. It took years. Whenever I learned something new, I rewrote it. The most difficult rewrite had to do with POV (that is, addressing "don't head-hop").

I once decided to revise the hundreds of short stories I had written using my new writing techniques so that I could post them on SOL. I quit trying after a few. The only way to have rewritten them was to write in omniscient. By then I didn't write in omniscient so I gave up.

The point is, for me, POV is the hardest part of writing fiction. It's a must to decide it up front.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

The point is, for me, POV is the hardest part of writing fiction. It's a must to decide it up front.

From this and your other comments above (which I very much appreciate, by the way), it seems that you do you story development, almost from the very first concept, from the point of view of a character. Correct?

Thinking about this, Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress comes to minds. I can imagine RAH sitting at his desk one day and thinking, "A story about how the moon was settled as a penal colony and rebels against earth to get its freedom would be cool." Then perhaps he fleshes it out with them shipping food stuff to earth via the launchers and that their weapon would be to throw rocks. That's what I mean by big picture, omniscient. But, for the book to be what it is, I'd guess he had to settle on Manny as his 1st person narrator pretty quickly. From that comes a lot of the structure of the story, including some "we found out later that..." components, and a lot of telling about the actual revolution. This would fit your approach, right?

Replies: Switch Blayde Vincent Berg

Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

you do you story development, almost from the very first concept, from the point of view of a character. Correct?

I never thought about it, but I don't think so. I guess that's true when I only have one POV character, but sometimes I have different POV characters for different scenes. That's how the reader learns what the main character doesn't know.

What I know before I start is:

1. the main characters and their relationships
2. the plot's conflict (what the protagonist wants/needs)
3. the inciting incident (what sets the conflict in motion)
4. the plot's climax/conflict resolution (how it's going to end)
5. sometimes a theme

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Switch Blayde

1. the main characters and their relationships
2. the plot's conflict (what the protagonist wants/needs)
3. the inciting incident (what sets the conflict in motion)
4. the plot's climax/conflict resolution (how it's going to end)
5. sometimes a theme

Thanks! That's very encouraging, because I realize that I knew those things when I started this book. What you and others have shared encourages me that struggling with these kind of things, and even having to go back and forth between my chapter summaries and the way the chapters turn out and revising one or the other periodically as I work through the first draft is very normal. That is very helpful.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

But, for the book to be what it is, I'd guess he had to settle on Manny as his 1st person narrator pretty quickly. From that comes a lot of the structure of the story, including some "we found out later that..." components, and a lot of telling about the actual revolution.

That's a big part of it, but rather than asking '3rd Omni of 1st Limited', your central question should be 'how can I best convey this story', and worry about form later.

If you can't account for wide tracts of the story through 1st, you figure out which techniques would work, and what the cost of each would be. Unfortunately, rather than sitting down and researching it, much of us start with badly mistaken assumption, waste months/years, before decided to adopt an equally mistaken assumption.

The key is, find a technique that works, and if it doesn't, figure out how to make it work. And if it isn't, then pull the plug and move on to the next project before you reach the point that you're no longer capable of quitting!

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Vincent Berg

The key is, find a technique that works, and if it doesn't, figure out how to make it work.

I love that "make it work." It's not about following the technique; it's about telling the story in a way that others can enjoy.

Replies: awnlee jawking Vincent Berg

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I love that "make it work."

It's far from an absolute. What some readers enjoy, others might think a horrendous mess.

It's easier when you've knocked out a few novels (and 'knock' in that sense doesn't mean 'steal'), and you've got a settled style and a readership following, and rinse and repeat is a valid option (Patterson, Baldacci etc).

AJ

Replies: JoeBobMack Vincent Berg

JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

What some readers enjoy, others might think a horrendous mess.

Yup. I guess I was thinking more from the author's perspective - "this works for me." As I mentioned, I'm writing as a hobby, for the challenge and satisfaction of meeting it, possibly for seeing my writing get better (at least in my opinion). Ultimately, I guess if NOBODY likes my work, I'll have to decide I'm just weird, but, if I like my work -- if I feel it's a good story with interesting characters and decently told --then that should be enough. Of course, it would be fun if a few others also got some enjoyment out of it!

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I guess if NOBODY likes my work

If you like your work, others will too.

AJ

Replies: JoeBobMack Vincent Berg

JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Thanks.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

If you like your work, others will too.

That's a key component. If you're merely writing for the genre (i.e. writing what's 'expected'), they you can't expect anyone else to get excited about it. That's why you've always got to pour your soul into your work, writing about the things that cleaves close to your heart so your emotions are there, on each page.

If you're not excited about your work and merely 'phoning it in', then you'd best write for yourself. But if you're honest with your fans, they'll usually see that, and they learn to trust the 'honesty' in your stories, more than any surprise endings, tricks or techniques you employ.

Of course, just like everything else, those revelations need to paced throughout the story, so they get the maximum benefit. You can't just throw them out willy-nilly.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Patterson, Baldacci

Its worth noting that Patterson and Baldacci aren't the ones doing that. Instead, they've developed a style, which they then farm out to new, upcoming authors for recognition and a small share of the profits. It's the other others who are doing the 'rise and repeat'ing for them.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I love that "make it work." It's not about following the technique; it's about telling the story in a way that others can enjoy.

Sorta, but a big part of 'enjoy' is making the story plausible. The key isn't sticking to rules, but understanding the rules enough so you understand the likely pitfalls when you break them. Thus 'making it work' involves taking calculating risks with your story, hoping readers take it the way you hope they will.

The rules/guidelines, such as they are, are there for a reason, not to prohibit authors, but to keep them from diving headfirst into an oncoming train! A major part of storytelling is establishing trust with the reader, which also entails opening on, exposing yourself and telling readers your own emotional truths. In the end, the story is often secondary.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@JoeBobMack

the book as written had diverged too far from the book as planned

Y'all plan your books?

I have a folder on my hard drive called 'Stories in Progress' that has a couple of dozen multi-paragraph first chapters of stories that I've come up with.

Two different crime stories, a zombie story, a swords and sorcery fantasy story, a World War Two story, and a couple of others. They're not outlines - just more or less story ideas. Start typing the first chapter and see where it goes.

I find that if I try to put an outline or plan down, the characters take that outline and run it through the shredder, because this is THEIR world, and they're going to do what they want. What I will do is, when I'm doing something like folding laundry or cutting the grass, is think about the 'big picture' for the world. But putting it down in writing and trying to actually get there is pointless, because things are going to change.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

I started my first book with a main character, a goddess, and a direction. Then I got other characters, they shifted the direction several degrees toward better. I thought I was good. Then they began to demand things about their own stories and making suggestions about the others (at least the ones that they like!).

I've got multiple attempts at notes about how the big world of magic will turn out, but I keep writing new ones, or revising, or layering, or whatever, every time the characters change something. That's why I'm doing the first draft of the fourth book in the series without publishing anything -- I'm waiting for the changes to settle enough that I can feel confident making whatever changes are needed to Book 1 and putting it out there. I'm getting close. Maybe this one will do it, maybe the next.

Like you, I've also got Scrivener files with notes, character sketches, etc. for two other series, one with a first book at 75,000 words.

But, like Switch Blayde, I now need a good idea of the starting and end points, the reason for the journey, and key points along the way. Sometimes they change as I go forward, but, as I'm getting to know the characters, I'm getting better at planning.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Plotting and POV

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