Forum: Author Hangout

society has associated 'Lolita' with pedophilia

I agree with that. There's even a term "loli" for cartoons that depict it.

But unfortunately Lolita is a young temptress. Probably from the novel with the same name. I don't think there's another word that pertains to an underage temptress.

Unfortunately, society has associated 'Lolita' with pedophilia, so I wouldn't reuse it.

Mostly because people are stupid.

Pedophilia deals with an attraction to pre-pubescents. That means 10 or under.

Hebephelia deals with adolescents, from 11-14.

Ephebophilia deals with attraction to those post-adolescent, but still young (15-19).

ETA: Done. Teen Siren code added to the system.

Now I have to go recode my stories! 🤪🤪🤪

ETA: Done. Teen Siren code added to the system.

It's not in the Category Search.

I suggest you also add an Ages tag of 'Early Teen' to cover the ages 13 to 15 and 'Mid-teen' to cover the 16 and 17 year olds for use where the cast is not mostly teenagers.

Plus most here won't understand the reference

Me too. I found it on the internet and still don't understand it :-(

AJ

Listen to the song "Living Next Door to Alice" by Smokie. That was a common audience callback, and there are many videos around to show this being done.

Oh, I don't know why she's leaving
Or where she's gonna go
I guess she's got her reasons
But I just don't want to know
'Cause for 24 years
I've been living next door to Alice
(Audience shouts out "Alice? Who the fuck is Alice?")

This was common for many years. Much like around 20 years ago when it became popular to shout out "Hey Motherfucker, get laid, get fucked!" during the Billy Idol rendition of "Mony Mony".

I got it right away. I always loved that song by Smokie.

precociously

Precociously (adj) "of or relating to behaving like in an unexpectantly mature manner"?

in an unexpectantly mature manner

So, not pregnant (yet)!

AJ

True. I get that the size of it fits better on the category search page. However, it could be a bit cryptic to some - RAAC and BTB as examples. I had to do some research to figure those out when they first appeared.

That means I have to be less lazy. ;-)

That means I have to be less lazy.

Lazy author, lazy readers?

what about "precociously seductive"?

That could be applied to males as well as females.

AJ

That could be applied to males as well as females.

Isn't that the point? After all, an age code that only applies to one sex is more than a bit sexist. It may not be used for boys, but only because we have such a small gay readership on the site, which derives mostly from the poor reception of the gay genre stories by existing SOL readers. But it is a very lucrative literary market, though not especially boy-centric.

What I read in the Wikipedia article on the novel, she wasn't a temptress, she was stalked, groomed, and molested by a man who had a preexisting interest in young girls and who married her mother just to get access to her.

You might want to read the book before you trust Wikipedia with a summary of a very controversial book.

For example, in May of this year (2021-05-08 to be exact) an edit was made to change 'sexually involved' to 'sexually abused'. That changes the entire character of the description.

Two days earlier, the words 'controversial novel' were removed as 'unnecessary', again hiding the fact that the story IS controversial.

There is not a uniform agreement on the book and a LOT of misunderstanding (on all sides).

But there is quite a bit of the plot laid out there, enough for me to make my own value judgements unless they are outright making stuff up.

It's very easy to twist the plot to create the impression the reviewer wants to create. There are serious problems with Humbert's behavior, but the book is far more complex than modern revisionists would like it to be. Wikipedia editors tend to be absolutists on certain topics. This is one of them.

(And yes, I realize I made an absolutist statement, but I'm not purporting to 'fairly' report information like an encyclopedia should do.)

I don't necessarily trust it. Particularly with value judgements. But there is quite a bit of the plot laid out there, enough for me to make my own value judgements unless they are outright making stuff up.

When the only ones allowed to venture an opinion are those who'd prefer burning the book, you tend to get a very lopsided view of a work of art.

My understanding of the twist was that Lolita knew exactly what Humbert was up to and did nothing to discourage him.

Other mileages may vary - it's up to people to read the story for themselves and make their own minds up. And definitely don't take the Wikipedia (spit!) article as trustworthy, considering just how susceptible it is to woke revisionists.

AJ

not describe a person as oriental'. What you're supposed to use instead is anyone's guess.

Asian?

Asian?

I'm asian but not oriental. So it always ticks me off when people use it to refer to East Asians. As an asian myself, from the Middle East, I don't know really what's the stigma behind the use of Oriental. Can somebody enlighten me? In my social circle I have many Chinese and Japanese acquaintances and I've asked them, and none of them have any issue with being described as oriental.

Is it something woke, like the liberals' refusal to use what latinos describe themselves as (latinos) and insisting on using Latinx instead (which ironically can't be pronounced by latinos).

What gets referred to as the Middle East would be the West Asia, not East Asia. Japan is off the East coast of Asia.

Thank you for the geography lesson. I had no idea. 😏

What I said still applies.

I don't know really what's the stigma behind the use of Oriental

In today's cancel culture/politically correct environment, it seems anything used in the past is viewed as discriminatory/racist today. I don't know why there isn't pushback on the NAACP name. The "CP" stands for "colored people." If someone would call that group of people colored people they would be cancelled.

As an asian myself, from the Middle East

That shows my ignorance. I never considered the Middle East as Asian. Years ago I became friends with a girl from India who said she was Asian. That surprised me too. Asian to me is a group of people like the Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, Vietnamese, etc. My bad.

I never considered the Middle East as Asian.

Well, simply look on a map and figure out what Continent it is on. The term can be used both in describing an ethnicity, but also a location.

"American" is not quite an ethnicity, yet. But give it another 100 years or so and we will likely evolve into one.

"American" is not quite an ethnicity, yet. But give it another 100 years or so and we will likely evolve into one.

Actually, given the past 4 years, I think "American" is a distinctive enough category to describe a complete range of racist, sexist, homophobic stereotypes. The assumption is that anyone still living here is willing to accept that label, so ...

I'm asian but not oriental. So it always ticks me off when people use it to refer to East Asians. As an asian myself, from the Middle East, I don't know really what's the stigma behind the use of Oriental.

Actually, you are. But over the course of time, the definitions have changed.

The term actually dates back to the Ancient Romans, and quite literally it covered everybody to the East of where they were. And the kingdoms of that time (like Judea) were often called "Oriental Despotic Rulers".

And everything where they were and farther west was "Occidental". Quite literally from the Latin words for "East" and "West".

But over thousands of years, the definitions have changed and shifted.

People don't like to be compared to rugs.

Persians don't mind being called Persians and there are Persian rugs.

Call someone from Iran an Arab and they'll quickly say they're Persian.

That article might be your answer.

Interesting article. As I said before, it seems anything a white person says about a non-white person is racist.

In the article she used a facetious example of calling someone from Mississippi a Southerner as being racist. I think it was the Allman Brothers who had a song that called out Neil Young for his song Southern Man. I guess the implication was that Neil Young is a racist (to Southerners).

In the article she used a facetious example of calling someone from Mississippi a Southerner as being racist. I think it was the Allman Brothers who had a song that called out Neil Young for his song Southern Man. I guess the implication was that Neil Young is a racist (to Southerners).

It is much more involved than that. But it was Lynyrd Skynyrd in "Sweet Home Alabama".

Young had long been friends with the band, and he had written a song critical of many in the South at the time.

I saw cotton and I saw black

Tall white mansions and little shacks

Southern man, when will you pay them back?

I heard screamin' and bullwhips cracking

How long? How long? How?

And in essence, "Sweet Home Alabama" was a response to that. And one that Neil got right away, but many missed and still do. Especially in one of the most well known refrains.

In Birmingham they love the governor (Boo! Boo! Boo!)

Now we all did what we could do

Now Watergate does not bother me

Does your conscience bother you?

Tell the truth

Even to this day I hear people call the song "racist", which proves that those who say that have never really listened to it, or know the era. They were actually booing George Wallace, of "Segregation Today, Segregation Tomorrow, Segregation forever!" fame.

And that they not only "did what they could do", but had a clear conscious over it. And challenging what anybody being critical might have done themselves at the time.

Anybody that has heard the works of Lynyrd Skynyrd should know that is not true. Their second album (the same one with "Alabama") features "The Ballad of Curtis Loew", a staple on radio stations in the area to this day.

Basically the song of a young boy who is so fascinated by an old black blues player that he would give him all of his money and go to listen to him every chance he could, even though he would get in trouble with his parents for doing that.

Even Neil Young in his own autobiography said that the ribbing they gave him was deserved, and that he had essentially stereotyped all Southerners based on only what some were saying.

he had essentially stereotyped all Southerners based on only what some were saying.

Depends on the era. For my current novel, which takes place during the 1940s, I researched the Dallas Morning News newspaper.

During the 1920s, when the Ku Klux Klan was a powerful force in Dallas, the Dallas Morning News pushed back against the KKK with its news coverage and editorials.[2] In turn, the KKK, which had a membership that included one in three eligible Dallas men, threatened to boycott the newspaper.[2]

"one in three eligible Dallas men"

But I did include the following disclaimer in front of my novel "Death of a Hero" which takes place in the South in current time:

It's not intended to offend anyone or any group of people in real life, and that includes white Southerners who are not the way the story depicts them.

"one in three eligible Dallas men"

But I did include the following disclaimer in front of my novel "Death of a Hero" which takes place in the South in current time:

That was also the era of the "Kinder and gentler Klan", when they were trying to play themselves off as not a racist organization, but just another Fraternal club.

In the early 1920's, there were chapters in every state, and their meetings were huge. Then in 1925 that all came crashing down around them. That is when the Grand Dragon of the Indiana Klan kidnapped, repeatedly raped, then did nothing afterwards as Madge Oberholtzer died.

The man was later convicted of murder, rape, and kidnapping. And the outrage was so strong that "Second Klan" largely died off outside of the South, and large cities like Chicago and LA.

Remember, that was also one of the high points of Fraternal Organizations in the country. Eagles, Elks, Oddfellows, Moose, Masons, Shriners, Lions, all of those and more were similar in how they were presenting themselves and gaining members. The Klan was trying to do the same thing, but the death of Madge Oberholtzer put that finally to an end and they were forced to return to the shadows.

But in that time, even Presidents, Supreme Court Justices, and everybody from doctors and lawyers to farmers and politicians joined, thinking it has been "reformed". It just took a few years for them to realize that was all a lie.

On the subject of potentially questionable tags, apparently newspeak has decreed that 'thou must not describe a person as oriental'.

And then we have to stop using 'disoriented' as it means not facing east! 🤪

Eastern Asian?

An academic institution is switching from 'Oriental Studies' to 'Asian and Middle Eastern Studies'.

I don't think that would work for a SOL tag :-(

AJ

Two points I'm not sure you're aware of:

1. There are many languages spoken by people who are classed as ethnic Arabs with the two most common be Farsi and Persian, but there are also others.

2. There are different ethnic groups in Asia. There is one called the Hmong who inhabit the mountainous regions from southern China down to Vietnam, and there are two different ethnic groups which the Chinese government has been waging a of genocide against for decades. From what I've read the Japanese regard themselves as being a very different ethnic group to the Chinese and Koreans and there are at least three separate ethnic groups in Japan. Those are examples I'm aware of without having really gone into research on the subject.

Also, on the difference between the Sunni and Shia, think about the troubles in Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants.

I think Farsi and Persian are the same language? But, yes, Iranians don't think of themselves as Arabs. Neither do the Kurds. I suppose a geneticist could find some common ground, but that is not the way most people think.

The most persecuted minority I've heard of in China are the Uyghurs. The Chinese took over their territory in the 18th Century and made it part of China in 1949. Supposedly there are 55 minority groups in China, but I don't know who they all are.

I've heard of the Ainu in Japan. They seem to have been there before the Japanese themselves arrived. The Hmong became rather well-known during our war in Vietnam.

I think Farsi and Persian are the same language?

From what I've learned they are similar and from the same root stock, but are different languages with a lot in common in much the same way as many of the languages derived from Latin or Spanish are different.

Asians in general don't identify with some continent wide identity any more the Europeans do.

That's a curious comparison.

Many who live in the EU use the term interchangeably with 'European', as though the federalist conquest had already been completed.

AJ

Call me when the EU imposes a single "common" language on all it's member states.

Who cares about a common language! The crucial change will be when the European Union has a single, national footie team, like the USA has now and the USSR used to have.

AJ

Thanks for bringing me up to speed on the Lebanese Christians. I didn't know much about them. I also didn't know that there was a distinct Lebanese language. I assume Muslim Lebanese speak it too?

What nobody says is that the written Arabic language is a dead language.

It is, for Muslims, what Latin used to be to Roman Catholic and Greek to the Roman Empire - a lingua franca.

Classical Arabic is the language found in the Qur'an.

Modern Standard Arabic largely follows the grammar of Classical Arabic and uses much of the vocabulary, with words added for concepts from the industrial era.

Modern Standard Arabic is the language used in most Arabic print publications and is generally understood by educated Arabic speakers.

Colloquial Arabic refers to the spoken dialects of Arabic used throughout the Arab world, which differ radically from Classical or Modern Standard Arabic. These include, but are not limited to, the following Arabic dialects: Lebanese Arabic, Gulf Arabic, Egyptian Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, Jordanian Arabic, Syrian Arabic, and Hajezi Arabic.

My Lebanese friends are all Orthodox Christians, under the Patriarch of Antioch (with a see currently in Damascus, Syria). The bishop who ordained me is from Ramallah in the West Bank, and he speaks what is best called 'Rural Palestinian' Arabic.

[Editied to clarify that I was referring to Arabic dialects.]

By including Lebanese under arabic or calling it 'colloquial arabic' you erase the long Lebanese history and subordinates it to occupying Arabs from the sixth century and on even though our language and civilization existed 3,000 years before the Arabs set foot in the area.

My apologies if I offended you, but that was not my intent. The serial list ended with 'Arabic' which was meant to apply to each of the previous forms. Hence 'Lebanese Arabic', not Lebanese. I made the mistake of including 'Arabic' after 'Gulf' which conveyed the wrong message. I've corrected that.

What I meant was:

"These include, but are not limited to, the following Arabic dialects: Lebanese Arabic, Gulf Arabic, Egyptian Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, Jordanian Arabic, Syrian Arabic, and Hajezi Arabic."

That said, I do understand there is a dispute about the origins of 'Lebanese Arabic', but as I understand it as a layman, the comparative method of historical linguistics provides strong evidence for calling the vernacular 'Lebanese Arabic'.

See, for example: Studying Arabic from the Beirut-based Lebanese Arabic Institute.

For the opposite position, see No, Levantine is not a "dialect of" Arabic by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.

So would a person from Morocco be able to understand someone from Kuwait? Or would that be somewhat dependant on their social class?

So would a person from Morocco be able to understand someone from Kuwait? Or would that be somewhat dependant on their social class?

That depends on a variety of factors. In the main, the variations of Arabic are similar to the variations of the Romance languages - French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian, etc.

There are wide differences in spoken and written Arabic, even in each dialect, not to mention the differences with Classical Arabic (the language of the Qur'an).

The answer is, really, 'it depends'. Many Arabic speakers claim they can understand all other Arabic speakers, but that does not appear to be true in practice, at least in many cases.

I was fluent in Brazilian Portuguese at the time

I went to Sao Paulo once for a business class with colleagues from the Miami area who spoke a little Spanish. Their Spanish didn't help us at all In Brazil.

One of the women from Florida asked a waiter for A1 Steak Sauce. He brought her a bottle of tabasco sauce. But the biggest faux pas she made was to ask for decaf coffee. I thought we were going to be thrown out of Brazil for that.

Regarding the ethnic identities; what do people who live in these places call themselves? I was under the impression that Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, etc., identify more with their nations than with an ethnic identity.

Oh no, very much the opposite.

It is only in the recent decades that the "culture" of Japan started to change enough to no longer put such a stigma on not being "Japanese". But through most of it's history, it was probably the most xenophobic nation on the planet.

Quite literally until the end of the Showa era, outsiders were barely recognized, even if they were born in Japan and lived there all their lives. And it is literally a culture that not only puts a label on those of Japanese descent born in another country, but how many generations they are removed from Japan.

Issei, Nisei, Sansei, Yonsei, as far as Gosei, which is literally the great-great-grandchild of an immigrant who left Japan. And even a Nisei (child born of 2 parents from Japan) at that time was not accepted as being "Japanese".

Others like Korea and China are less so, because of once having been part of larger empires and thousands of generations of people wandering and trading across borders. But even into the late 1800's, Japan was isolationist to such a degree that sailors who were shipwrecked on the islands were killed upon discovery.

It is both nation and ethnicity, who claim to belong to a nation that lays claim to be a single dynasty, a line of unbroken Emperors that can be traced back to when Byzantium was founded, the Assyrian's sacked Thebes, and even before the Israelites were sent into exile in Babylon. That literally is how old their "Imperial Family" stretches into antiquity, and as a result it gives them a rather interesting self-view in the world.

As much as I love the Japanese culture and people and loved living there, it does not blind me to the fact that in many ways, they are "Klingons". And it was really only during the middle Showa era that their antagonism towards outsiders finally softened.