Only about one to two readers in a hundred post a score for my stories. Is that typical across SOL? I'm quite curious about the reactions of the other 98%. (And it seems most who do vote either think the story is quite good or quite bad.) Does anyone have any suggestions or strategies for eliciting more votes?
Engagement is hard. As a rule of thumb, only about 10% of the readers of a forum ever post or comment. Why ratings have even lower rates, I don't know, and I'm curious to hear what others can tell us.
It's funny - I consider the reader count much more important than the voting count.
I was just thinking that it would be great if there was a strategy to get more people to read my older stories. I look at my early reader count and it is not nearly as high as my later stories. Yet, I consider my earlier stories to be better. It's almost as if because they are 3+ years old they are "Stale" and no one wants them anymore - but they want me to rush the latest story.
If you think of a way to engage on this - I am all ears.
I was just thinking that it would be great if there was a strategy to get more people to read my older stories.
"Novels sell novels."
So if someone reads a novel and likes it, they'll look to see what other novels the author published. It should be the same with stories on SOL. It's even easier on SOL to get a listing of the author's stories.
It's funny - I consider the reader count much more important than the voting count.
And you determine this, how? I am genuinely curious, I'd like to see what my reader count is.
I know you can't reliably use the number of downloads, those numbers are not accurate if the story has more than one chapter. ONLY counting the last chapter is probably the most accurate, but that ignores anyone who bailed early.
The number of votes would leave you with a mistaken impression that hardly anyone read the story. My most voted on story is at 3608 votes, but with an averaged download count of 51160, or last chapter count of 49010. So... about 7% of readers voted by that measure.
Anyway, what am I missing?
Anyway, what am I missing?
Not missing exactly, but a couple of minor points.
A premier member who downloads the whole story will cause the download count to be incremented but not the chapter counts.
The download count for the final chapter is in more danger of underestimating the number of readers who actually read it than the previous chapters.
AJ
Let's be clear here, then.
For those who rely on reader count, where/how are you getting an accurate reader count?
where/how are you getting an accurate reader count?
I suspect that's only possible for single-chapter stories, but I look forward to other opinions.
AJ
I'm pretty sure it's not possible for single-chapter stories either, unless I'm misunderstanding. My belief is that the first story-part (e.g. the whole story, for a single-chapter story) will get a very high download count due to browser prefetching.
As noted elsewhere in here, my Foreward has a download count about 4.5x that of my first chapter. I truly doubt it's actually been downloaded, much less read, that many more times than the first chapter.
Is there a distinction to be made between single chapter stories and no chapter stories? One or two of mine have no chapters - click on the link and you're straight into the story without having to click on a chapter link. Your 'Debate 101' is like that.
AJ
Yes - a bit of testing suggests that no-chapter is different than single-chapter. It's hard to be sure, but I can't see any obvious triggering of 'extra' downloads by poking 'around' 'Debate 101' without actually opening it.
As noted elsewhere in here, my Foreward has a download count about 4.5x that of my first chapter. I truly doubt it's actually been downloaded, much less read, that many more times than the first chapter.
That's known behavior. On the detailed stats page for a story, it states:
Please note that the first part's download count is always way over-inflated because some browsers download the first part automatically when a reader views the story's index page.
I did note that when I first mentioned it. My goal was to illustrate the truth of that detailed stats page observation.
Only about one to two readers in a hundred post a score for my stories. Is that typical across SOL?
From my own experience and that expressed by others in past threads, 2% isn't unusual, the average is almost certainly far less than 10%
I'm quite curious about the reactions of the other 98%. (And it seems most who do vote either think the story is quite good or quite bad.)
Some readers only vote after reading the last chapter, often they forget when the last chapter is finally posted.
Some readers feel entitled, those are the ones who demand authors write faster etc, apparently gratitude is a sign of weakness, so voting is a waste of their time.
Since certain other sites allow voting but not changing a vote, some readers assume that applies here on SoL thus they too wait for the last chapter before voting. Note that they vote after reading which can be months after the posting date.
Then there are those who vote because they love the author or hate the author/genre/codes.
Does anyone have any suggestions or strategies for eliciting more votes?
Suggestions are plentiful, effective, not so much. The tried and trusted footnote asking/begging your reader to vote might gain a few votes, widening your plea to include voting for any story might gain more votes. The one I personally dislike is the "I'll post more when I get x votes". It is petulant and downright rude.
The caveat to increasing the number of readers who vote is that it might not actually improve your score. Whilst every author probably expects more votes to equal higher scores, it is possible that the extra votes cast will not enhance your score.
Personally I think we need a scientific study to determine why the vote button is so like the clitorus. Many guys are vaguely aware that it is rumoured to exist, but damn few know how to find it.
It's the same way with things like YouTube. I hear so many YouTubers bed for subscribers and to "click the bell to get notified". Most YouTubers have about 10% subscription rate.
The caveat to increasing the number of readers who vote is that it might not actually improve your score. Whilst every author probably expects more votes to equal higher scores, it is possible that the extra votes cast will not enhance your score.
Understandable. I'm not really concerned with getting a better score. I'm just curious what the silent 98% think. My guess is that if everyone had to vote, most of the 98% votes would be somewhere in the middle. But maybe most of them would be 2's and 3's.
My guess is that if everyone had to vote,
Ye'd get a hellacious amount of 1 votes from the people who don't like being forced to do things like voting. They'd do that just on general principle of hating being forced, regardless of how they felt about the story.
I usually wait for the final chapter or the seventh chapter (if the story is longer than 7 chapters) to turn on voting.
This way I give people enough time to make a decision about the story.
Is that typical across SOL?
votes as a percentage of downloads for for my stories at SoL is 2.5%, for Fine Stories is 4.9%, for SciFi stories is 4.5%
In past discussions on this many people reported 1% to 1.5 % so 2% st SoL is good.
My patent recipe for engagement:
Write stories at least 200KB.
Post a chapter daily or every few days.
End many chapters with a minor cliffhanger.
Have a footnote pleading for feedback.
Also:
You won't get more votes, but you'll score higher if you also disable voting until the end.
End many chapters with a minor cliffhanger.
to me the above is grounds for a disengagement with the story and author.
I, like many others, regard cliffhangers as a cheap trick by a lazy hack writer as it fails to complete the sub-plot action within the chapter.
a cheap trick by a lazy hack writer as it fails to complete the sub-plot action within the chapter.
or it's to set up the next chapter.
I'm using the term "cliffhanger" as a page-turner rather than a person hanging over a cliff in danger of dying. If there's nothing to make the reader turn the page to find out what is going to happen, why would they keep reading?
or it's to set up the next chapter.
I'm using the term "cliffhanger" as a page-turner rather than a person hanging over a cliff in danger of dying. If there's nothing to make the reader turn the page to find out what is going to happen, why would they keep reading?
If you CAN turn that page and there is another chapter. One more reason to wait with reading a story until it's finished. If you have to wait a few days even a page turner becomes frustrating very fast.
If you have to wait a few days even a page turner becomes frustrating very fast.
I don't take chapter posting on SOL into consideration when writing. I write as if the reader has the entire novel/story in front of them. I may consider it when posting, but not writing.
I feel the same way about starting a chapter with what happened in the previous chapter as discussed in another thread. I guess it makes sense if the previous chapter hasn't been posted for a while and the reader forgot what was happening, but if both chapters are there I find it boring and annoying to re-read what I just read.
So the nuances of SOL do not determine how I write. If a reader wants to score it low because of that, so be it. The integrity of the story is more important to me than the score.
I'm the same way. I write what I write; I'm not taking chapter posting into consideration. On the other hand, I'm aware of it when posting, and have gone out of my way to NOT post a true edge-of-your-seat cliffhanger, because I never intended the reader to not have access to the short-term resolution of the situation. In the cases where a chapter leaves a major situation unresolved I've posted the following chapter.
There should always be enough going on that people want to read the next chapter (and, right now, my story is at a slow point and I may be failing a bit at that, but it'll pick up a lot shortly), but true cliffhangers from chapter to chapter are really an artifact of the posting process, nothing more.
If you CAN turn that page and there is another chapter.
so why split the action over 2 chapters - that's just silly.
so why split the action over 2 chapters - that's just silly.
In 3rd-limited, the POV changes.
so why split the action over 2 chapters - that's just silly.
Yep, that was my point. Like you stated, the end of a chapter should be a good natural stopping point for the reading session.
or it's to set up the next chapter.
The main ingredient of a cliff hanger is to have an incomplete serious action that's waiting to be finished. Thus the cliff hanger should be part of the next chapter or part of the next chapter should be part of the chapter the cliff hanger is in. Splitting the action over 2 chapters isn't right. The majority of people see chapter ends as places they can put the book down to sleep or go back to work or whatever, and splitting the action like that means they can't do that, thus it makes a total mockery of having a chapter end and there is no need for chapters at all in such a story, so even a 200,000 word story should be a single chapter than 20 chapters with cliffhangers
The main ingredient of a cliff hanger is to have an incomplete serious action that's waiting to be finished. Thus the cliff hanger should be part of the next chapter or part of the next chapter should be part of the chapter the cliff hanger is in. Splitting the action over 2 chapters isn't right.
I use the term "cliffhanger" not to be literally hanging off a cliff.
In my WIP, I end a chapter with:
Lt. Wiley said, "I need to see other patients." She turned and walked away.
There was something she wasn't telling him.
To me, that's a cliffhanger, as in a page turner, as in "Ohmigod, what isn't she telling him?" The reader may not find out what she's not telling him in the next chapter. It may be in the one after that. But it's a cliffhanger because the reader wants to know what it is she isn't telling him.
Another chapter ends with:
"I should explain. I got carried away and I thought—"
"Get out!"
What's the cliffhanger? Their relationship. Will they make up? Will she forgive him?
Sometimes you start a new chapter right in the middle of an action scene if the POV changes (writing in 3rd-limited). Sure, you can do it with a scene change, but it can be done with a new chapter. And that could be a literal cliffhanger.
Lt. Wiley said, "I need to see other patients." She turned and walked away.
There was something she wasn't telling him.
To me, that's a cliffhanger, as in a page turner, as in "Ohmigod, what isn't she telling him?" The reader may not find out what she's not telling him in the next chapter. It may be in the one after that. But it's a cliffhanger because the reader wants to know what it is she isn't telling him.
There are levels of 'severity' to cliffhangers. If you think about it then every chapter has a sort of cliffhanger, simply because the story hasn't finished yet. It's the type of cliffhanger that almost forces a reader to the next chapter that is objected to.
Lt. Wiley said, "I need to see other patients." She turned and walked away.
There was something she wasn't telling him.
Is that a POV change?
AJ
Lt. Wiley said, "I need to see other patients." She turned and walked away.
There was something she wasn't telling him.
Is that a POV change?
No. Not in this case. Although written in 3rd-limited, the entire novel is from a single character's POV. But the scene ended so the chapter ended. But I left it with an unknown that is explained later. As I said, I use the term "cliffhanger" loosely.
An example of changing POVs and therefore starting a new chapter in the middle of a scene is in my first novel, "Sexual Awakening." Chapter 2 is from Elizabeth's POV. She's put in a situation where Jeff is masturbating her in a movie theater. The chapter change happens with her orgasm because the POV switches to Jeff.
She grabbed Jeff's forearm with both hands, holding it tight while her lower body jerked with short, quick humps. With his palm pressed against her clitoris and his finger inside her, every movement caused a jolt of pleasure. Elizabeth's body tensed and her knees snapped shut, squashing his hand between her thighs. She shook. She squealed. Her body shuddered. Her fingernails dug into Jeff's flesh as her hips jerked twice more.
And then she went limp. Her arms dropped to her sides and her chin to her heaving chest.
Chapter 3
Elizabeth's squeal echoed throughout the theater causing Jeff to turn in his seat and peer into the darkness. None of the men behind them were watching the movie. He glared at one man whose eyes shot up to the screen. The next looked to the side. And so it went with each man he made eye contact with.
Jeff remained sitting sideways when his attention returned to Elizabeth. He rested his right elbow on top of the seatback with the side of his face cradled in his palm. He studied her, leaning in for a closer look in the dim light.
No. Not in this case.
Okay. I take that to mean it's from Lt Wiley's perspective. It just seemed odd from that small snippet.
AJ
Okay. I take that to mean it's from Lt Wiley's perspective. It just seemed odd from that small snippet.
No. The whole novel is from Boyd's POV.
If I wrote it as an internal thought, the "There was something she wasn't telling him" would be "What isn't she telling me?"
score higher if you also disable voting until the end
In my opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, most readers who don't finish a story don't like it, or have at best an "average" opinion of it. So the readers who read every chapter, if they vote once the story is done, probably
rate the story higher than people who quit while it was still being posted. It probably is the reason votes are higher for stories that wait for x number of chapters before voting is enabled. The readers who would have voted it 6 or less never got to the point where they could vote.
I feel as if I'm missing something here (which happens, not infrequently). How are you determining the reader count?
I can look at downloads, which gives me some idea, but some of those may be rereads or something else. It's hard for me to tell what's a 'reader' vs something else.
If I go by downloads of a chapter that's, say, 5 chapters back (to allow for readers who read a few chapters at a time, once a week, etc, while hopefully not pushing too much into the 'reread' territory), about 1/6 of my readers are voting. But, of course, some votes are likely 'parting shots'. If I pick one of the first few chapters (with very high-download counts) it's 1/20, but then those are the most likely to have been reread.
The total download count has almost no resemblance to the per-chapter download counts, so I have no way to make sense out of it. By 'almost no resemblance', adding up all the chapters except the Foreward (which I know will be artificially high), the download count is about 3x the official download count of the story.
So: how are people counting readers? Is there a metric I'm missing?
My stories are almost all quite short, many of them fewer than 500 words, so I think it's likely the download count and reader count is quite similar. Then again, it may be that a lot of people who download don't read the story. And it may be that some downloads are not people at all. (Is that possible at SOL?)
It's pretty clear from what Lazeez has written that the downloads of the first chunk of a story (the whole story, if not broken into chapters) can be non-reader downloads. If someone looks at the info page many browsers will fetch the first chunk. That's why I ignore the Foreword in any consideration of counting downloads.
My Foreword has about 4.5x the downloads of Chapter 1. I truly doubt that many people are repeatedly rereading the Foreword, and I doubt I'm losing over 80% of people because they don't like the Foreword. If I am, I must be doing something really, really wrong in the Foreword!
I truly doubt that many people are repeatedly rereading the Foreword, and I doubt I'm losing over 80% of people because they don't like the Foreword. If I am, I must be doing something really, really wrong in the Foreword!
From what I read here in the forum a lot of readers don't bother reading a foreword so I doubt it would cause loosing readers.
When I like a story, I usually score it high. When I don't like the story, I don't finish it and think it's unfair to score it when I haven't read the whole thing. However, if an author squicks me by going into untagged areas that disgust me, I express my opinion by giving him an exceptionally low score.
I cannot speak for others but I quit voting when I realized how broken the voting on SOL is.
I read a story, noticed the score, thought the story was better than that and voted a 9 because it was really good but not perfect, the score went down.
I read a story, noticed the score, thought the story was better than that and voted a 9 because it was really good but not perfect, the score went down.
The system removes the highest and lowest 5% of votes when calculating the score.
This is why stories with fewer than 20 votes don't show a score, because 5% of 20 is 1 and only whole votes can be removed.
If your vote pushes the story to exactly the next multiple of 20 votes so that 1 more vote gets removed from the top and bottom, The score can move in either direction no matter what your specific vote was.
At that point, the change in the score depends as much if not more on the distribution of the prior votes than it does on your vote.
Another writer on here said he had a story with one vote before he stopped allowing voting. That vote was an 8 and the story had a score of 6.6
Another writer on here said he had a story with one vote before he stopped allowing voting. That vote was an 8 and the story had a score of 6.6
Impossible.It wouldn't show as score without at least 20 votes. Stories with fewer than 20 votes show a score of -
I can see the score on my author page even before they get to twenty. Once they hit twenty the score is available to all the readers.
I don't usually vote much, but I frequently comment on stories that have them enabled. Generally what I want to say about stories can't really be expressed as a simple number. And I have problems rating your stories in particular, because they tend to be both very short and very weird, neither of which are conducive to assigning a numerical rating to them.
I will admit I did 1-bomb the one that you posted as a series of one-sentence "chapters", and which, after stringing us along for several days, turned out to be a snuff story.
Thanks for this information. I apologize for doing the short chapters story. I wanted to find out how chapters worked. I will look into deleting it and reposting it as a non-chapter story. Though the story involves death, it isn't to my mind a snuff story. Do you think that stories with murder in them should always be coded snuff? In this case, I don't even think it was murder. It wasn't intended. I'm not very good with story codes, but I don't think that death necessarily qualities as snuff. And I did code the story "caution." My feeling is that your score of "1" is bad behavior. If you hated the story give it a score of "2." (Or get the admins to change the description of "1.")
Do you think that stories with murder in them should always be coded snuff?
No. SOL's definition of "snuff" is:
Killing being done during the act of sex. (Non-sexual murder is in violent)
Do you think that stories with murder in them should always be coded snuff?
No. SOL's definition of "snuff" is:
Killing being done during the act of sex. (Non-sexual murder is in violent)
I trust you have it right, but to my mind it's clearly wrong. A loving husband and his loving wife make love and he dies of a heart attack during the act. Snuff? No way!
I trust you have it right, but to my mind it's clearly wrong. A loving husband and his loving wife make love and he dies of a heart attack during the act. Snuff? No way!
Yes, he has it right, but you are confused.
It's
Killing being done during the act of sex. (Non-sexual murder is in violent)
A loving husband and his loving wife make love and he dies of a heart attack during the act. Snuff? No way!
Of course not. That would be considered a natural death not a killing.
A good way to rephrase it would be: Murder committed for the sexual pleasure of the murderer.
This is most typically portrayed as being done during sex at the moment of orgasm.
Um. A girl literally smothered another girl with her pussy. If that's not snuff, I don't know what is. Or did I misread what happened? I have no desire to go back and read it again to make sure.
I probably wouldn't have given it a 1 for the content alone, because you did have the Caution tag. I probably wouldn't have given it a 1 just for the obnoxious formatting... though frankly I think the one-sentence-per-day posting would quite legitimately justify "You call this a story?" But the combination of the two, so that the reward for following what really wasn't a story for several days was, surprise, dead girl... yeah, I 1-bombed it, and I have no remorse.
And I don't see this as bad behavior. It's not like I voted on a story that I hadn't read or something. I read the story, I formed my opinion, and I voted accordingly.
Though a lot of the authors here keep trying, fundamentally, you can't tell readers how to vote — both in the sense that you cannot control the vote they cast, and in the sense that the vote is their opinion, and you can't tell someone their opinion is wrong. Sometimes people aren't going to like your stuff. Sometimes they're not going to vote the way you want them to. It happens.
If it helps, that's the only one of your stories I've so strongly disliked. There have been a couple that I've skipped because of codes and/or description, and more than a few where my main reaction has been, "... what the fuck did I just read?" But generally I've liked them, and even the ones that I'm not so fond of are at least quick reads, and usually come with sexy pictures.
And the sincerest kind of vote: I keep reading the new ones every morning.
Um. A girl literally smothered another girl with her pussy. If that's not snuff, I don't know what is. Or did I misread what happened? I have no desire to go back and read it again to make sure.
I wouldn't call that snuff. I feel that with snuff there's a predetermined intention to kill while having sex. What you described feels more like an accident in the moment of passion.
I wouldn't call that snuff. I feel that with snuff there's a predetermined intention to kill while having sex. What you described feels more like an accident in the moment of passion.
If the girl was bound or restrained in some way then the face-sitter has a duty of care, so it would at least be negligent homicide.
If however she was not restrained in any way, how did the face-sitter not realise something was wrong? Suffocation usually involves struggle, then unconsciousness, prior to death.
Whilst fiction isn't often acquainted with fact, a face-sitter who is utterly oblivious? Hmm...
If the girl was bound or restrained in some way then the face-sitter has a duty of care, so it would at least be negligent homicide.
Yep, that's a different situation.
@Keet
.I wouldn't call that snuff. I feel that with snuff there's a predetermined intention to kill while having sex. What you described feels more like an accident in the moment of passion
If the girl was bound or restrained in some way then the face-sitter has a duty of care, so it would at least be negligent homicide.
For me, snuff=murder as sexual kink.
Intent is important, but not by itself definitive. Premeditation is definitely not required.
A two party sex act is not necessary, and not definitive if it happens.
The definitive element is the killer deriving sexual pleasure from the act of killing.
If A hangs B and derives sexual pleasure from it, that's snuff even if there is no direct sexual contact between A and B.
An assassin who uses sex as a means to get close to and distract the victim but is emotionally indifferent to the killing itself is not snuff.
The same would go for a jilted lover using sex as a means of distracting the victim. Here the killing is a matter of rage, not deriving sexual pleasure from the act of killing, that's not snuff.
For the F/F face sitting example, there isn't enough context. How does the face sitter react to her partner's death? Is she gleeful? Indifferent? horrified?
What about suicide by auto-erotic asphyxia?
If it was intentionally suicide, yes, it qualifies as snuff.
For me, snuff=murder as sexual kink.
Every definition of 'snuff' I've seen (other than the tobacco related product) has stated it involved an intentional murder with some sort of sexual aspect. They've varied as to the type and extent of sexual aspect, but have all included the premeditated killing of the target. Thus, if someone dies by accident during a sexual activity it can't be 'snuff' as it wasn't premeditated.
I have eliminated the chapters from the story, which, as I mentioned, was an experiment, and I have added the code SNUFF, though by my definition it is not a snuff story. Thanks for your help in clarifying some of my thoughts.
To hang clothes you need clothes hangers. To hang cliffs you need cliff hangers.
Is that what happened to Cliff Richards?
Is that what happened to Cliff Richards?
No, that was 'he said' versus 'she said'. With no physical evidence it didn't go to court so Cliff was able to claim he was innocent and get compensation.
AJ
I had two people vote a one on my latest story. The story codes are exactly descriptive of what you're going to get in that story. I think that they are just trolls. Considering it happened in the same night I'm guessing it was actually the same person with two accounts.
I turned off voting entirely.. I would love to make it so that if you're going to vote three or less, you have to send constructive feedback on why. I feel like otherwise it does seem like trolling from people who had no interest in that type of story that want to punish you for writing it. There is no way I can learn from a three or less vote unless I get constructive criticism.
If there is anything consistent about human behavior, it's the inherent inconsistencies. Please one person, you anger another. Get one person to vote, you stop another from doing so.
If there is a pseudo consistency, it would be that people tend to get upset when they start getting the feeling they are being manipulated. Therefore, my advice would be to simply add a note asking readers to vote or other such straight forward means.
Therefore, my advice would be to simply add a note asking readers to vote or other such straight forward means.
Thanks Remus2. I have done exactly that for a couple of stories. We'll see what happens.
Maybe i can provide some insight into this topic since im an avid reader on this site but i never really rate a story unless its either really good or really bad, it kinda has to be memorable one way or the other.
I suspect your "method" is pretty common, but I do get a lot of votes in the middle too. My own feeling is that if the vote is intended for the author, a comment would better serve. If the vote is intended for other readers, then it might make sense to vote high low and in-between. But I'm sure there are as many ideas as there are readers, and with so few voters, it almost doesn't matter. Again, my main interest has to do with the 98% who don't vote. What sort of reaction did they have?
Myself, I never care much about things like reader count or vote scores. I readily admit I write for my own pleasure, and get most enjoyment from the comments left after a story. Which is also why I am very active in responding to such comments, or letters from fans.
And as many of my subject matters can be a bit dark or things others do not care for, I sometimes laugh at the "1 bombs" I get. Because I know they in general are not actually commenting on my writing, but that the story simply did not turn out as they wanted it to end up.
"Main character who I was enjoying reading about dies in a car crash along with his GF? Boooo, you get a 1, I hated it!" But I laugh, as they obviously missed the entire concept that caused me to write it in the first place.
I can only laugh, and imagine they also went "Booo, how dare you M! Bruce Willis was dead the entire time? Not fair!"
What do you do when you get an extremely negative comment? I've had more than a few of these. I try to reply to everything else.
Yes, I do get the feeling that a lot of the low votes relate to stories that don't turn out happily ever after. Or have themes or content the reader can't abide. Or are very short.
What do you do when you get an extremely negative comment? I've had more than a few of these. I try to reply to everything else.
Yes, that is mostly what gets the lowest ranks.
And if they ask in my comments, I explain that the story was generally written with a specific outcome in mind. Myself, I think that scores should reflect more the writing itself and general plot rather then specifics.
And if somebody is so upset that they do not like how a story ends, I suggest they instead try writing themselves. Now, I mostly write to tell a story, and also as I often joke to "break tropes". And one of them is the "happily ever after" ending.
Real life is certainly rarely filled with them, so why should my stories be? And even the Lord of the Rings did not have a good ending if you think about it. The Hobbits return to find the Shire destroyed and controlled by Saruman. And Frodo ultimately leaves into exile with the elves, still badly damaged in mind and body from bearing the Ring.
The movies gave it a happier ending, but that of the books was much more somber. Feeling more like it was intended, the feeling of moroseness that England felt after the end of WWI.
Myself, I think that scores should reflect more the writing itself and general plot rather then specifics.
SOL used to have an appeal score and a technical score which relected what you suggest. But voting on each was separately optional and almost no readers voted a technical score.
I would love to see that old system with three categories. Right now it's really hard to know what someone's vote means. I've looked at the write-up on voting. The adjusted average strikes me as misleading. An average of six I gather is supposed to show that the story is rated in the middle of stories, but likely a lot of readers will think this means it's mediocre, when in fact the actual average was above seven, which means the typical readers thought the story was good. Instead of showing an "average" why not show a percentile?
I'm also a bit confused on exactly how dropping high and low votes works. And are those votes dropped forever? If so, that presents a potential problem. Let's say a story had a ten, a bunch of nines, and an eight. So the ten and the eight get dropped. But now a new vote comes in, a one. And then another one. And another nine. So now one of the ones and one of the nines get dropped. But really both ones should have been dropped and that previously dropped eight should have been restored. (Well, maybe it works that way, I don't know. What I do notice is that high and low scores seem to disappear from my distribution chart. I want my chart to show all the votes. Every vote should count!)
Finally, if all the reader has to go on is average, he's not necessarily going to get a good idea of reader reaction. Take a story with a real average of six. That could mean that almost everyone rated the story six. Or it could mean that half the readers rated it ten and half rated it one or two. Or it could mean that the votes were evenly distributed over the entire range. Those are three widely divergent reactions.
I'm also a bit confused on exactly how dropping high and low votes works. And are those votes dropped forever?
No, those votes remain in the system, they just aren't used for calculating the score.
I would love to see that old system with three categories.
It was dropped because 90%+ of readers only voted in the appeal category. It didn't work because almost no one gave stories technical scores.
Only 2% of the readers vote as it is. I don't see a problem with readers voting only in the categories they feel appropriate. I would think if a writer got some low scores in the technical category he might seek some help.
high and low scores seem to disappear from my distribution chart
??
What distribution chart? How do I get to mine?
What distribution chart? How do I get to mine?
Author/editors -->> Story Stats -->> Click on Story you want data on
then it's there as the bar at the bottom of the individual story page.
What distribution chart? How do I get to mine?
If you go to the Authors/Editors resources page and click on the Story Stats link. On the author stats page, click on the name of a specific story and you will get a page of detailed stats for that specific story.
On that page, some authors will get a histogram of the votes used to calculate the story score.
If you don't have it, the only way to get it would be to ask Lazeez for it, and the answer will probably be no.
IIRC, Lazeez had expressed on another thread that not only is he not making it available to new authors, he is considering removing it completely.
I hope Lazeez doesn't remove the vote distribution chart. If I saw only my "average," I'd have no idea whether anyone really liked my story. The distribution chart provides a good clue about how readers received the story. Did Lazeez say why he's considering removing the chart and why he's not making it available for new authors?
Did Lazeez say why he's considering removing the chart and why he's not making it available for new authors?
Of course I did. To cut down on the complaints about the voting system.
So far, since I stopped the distribution chart for new authors, no new authors have complained about how their scores are unfair.
The biggest mistake that I did in 2006 when I implemented the current voting system was to create the distribution chart. It has brought me nothing but headaches.
I'm going to remove it soon from everybody and any author that wants access to it must promise, and stick to their promise, not to discuss the scores publicly or hassle me with complaints about their scores.
I'm going to remove it soon from everybody and any author that wants access to it must promise, and stick to their promise, not to discuss the scores publicly or hassle me with complaints about their scores.
even if the support your position - that's the only reason I haven't made the promise. If I promise never to talk about it I can't support you side of the discussion.
I'm certainly willing to so affirm in order to get such access. I'm intensely curious how wide the distribution is story by story (i.e closer to Gaussian or two love it/hate it spikes). I can't imagine any reason to complain to you about how readers respond to my writing.
I can't imagine any reason to complain to you about how readers respond to my writing.
Neither can I, but plenty of authors have complain about the scoring system. The thing is none of those complaining understand the difference in the various past scoring periods and systems and the current one, which is what lies at the heart of the current system to allow the scores to be adding apples to apples instead of adding apples to oranges, peaches and lemons.
any author that wants access to it must promise, and stick to their promise, not to discuss the scores publicly or hassle me with complaints about their scores
I'd be happy to promise that to get access to it.
In the absence of that, simply providing mean and standard deviation would be useful information. I'd much rather have the chart, but either is better than simply a number.
As was noted above, there is a large difference to an author in knowing a '6' is all 6's, vs 1's and 10's, vs even votes across the range.
Maybe the new authors don't understand that the scores don't always show the way people vote. Are complaints a bad thing? From my point of view, the site would be much less valuable without the distribution chart. The chart is definitely the best thing about the voting system. In order to keep it I'd certainly promise not to discuss it publicly. Do you get any feedback from authors praising the voting system? From readers?
Are complaints a bad thing?
They aren't a good thing.
You have to understand. The scoring system has already been repeatedly changed due to complaints from authors and using suggestions from those same authors.
And they still keep complaining.
This is a game that Lazeez can not win. There is no way to make everyone happy.
He's made the only rational choice he had, stop playing the game.
This is a game that Lazeez can not win. There is no way to make everyone happy.
The internet is bursting with different ways for consumers to give quick feedback.
My favorite is a single button for "Thumbs Up." Press it or don't press it. But make it BIG, so that the reader is reminded about it's existence. This button sends a very clear message to the author, that a reader liked the story enough to press 'thumbs up.'
Scoring systems all suck, except when only professionals in the field vote, and even then there will be trolls.
I like the like button.
In some place people have complained that a like button would make it less likely that readers would comment. I think that's unlikely here.
My preference would be for the like button to be labeled "recommend." But in any case, one down the road possibility is for readers to get lists of stories liked by other readers whose likes were similar to their own.
The internet is bursting with different ways for consumers to give quick feedback.
Yes it is.
My favorite is a single button for "Thumbs Up."
Your favorite isn't particularly relevant. Other people have different favorites and that was my point.
No matter matter what choice Lazeez makes someone will be unhappy with it and complain.
Nothing he does with the scoring system will make everyone happy. Someone will complain no matter what.
To be fair, iv only ever gave stories a 1 if they mislabeled or flat out hid tags. I don't mind NTR if i go into a story knowing it has sharing/swinging/cheating/cuckold tags but if i open up a "harem" story and it has sharing but not tagged properly that turns me off completely and even gets me a little riled up.
Yeah it shouldn't be that way and it seems like authors are getting better at tagging their stories properly but there are a few people who still fail to list tags due to "shock value".
To be fair, iv only ever gave stories a 1 if they mislabeled or flat out hid tags.
I've only ever given a 1 in cases where someone posted a political or religious rant without even an attempt to build a story around it.
Yes, that has happened a few times.
I take the "This is not a story" description literally.
"snuff"
"Snuff
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Snuff may refer to:
Contents
1 Tobacco
2 Media and entertainment
2.1 Literature
2.2 Music
2.3 Other uses in media and entertainment
3 See also Tobacco
Snuff (tobacco), fine-ground tobacco, sniffed into the nose
Moist snuff or dipping tobacco
Creamy snuff, an Indian tobacco paste
Media and entertainment
Snuff film, a type of film that shows a murder
Literature
Snuff (Palahniuk novel), a 2008 novel by Chuck Palahniuk
Snuff (Pratchett novel), a 2011 Discworld novel by Terry Pratchett
S.N.U.F.F., a 2011 science fiction novel by Viktor Pelevin
Music
Snuff (band), British band
Snuff (country rock band), US band active in the early 1980s
"Snuff" (song), a song by Slipknot
"Snuff", a song by Slayer from World Painted Blood
Snuff Garrett (born 1938), American record producer
Other uses in media and entertainment
Snuff (film), a 1976 splatter film
Snuff (wrestler)
"Snuff" (CSI), an episode of the TV series CSI: Crime Scene Investigation"