Forum: Author Hangout

Single-word Sentence Fragments and "But …"

Crumbly Writer 🚫

As usual, M$ WORD continues to drive me bonkers. Not only does it not flip out, randomly jumping to other pages, but it keeps flagging the comma in "But," for removal, as in the following sentence.

"But," Leslie said, standing, "I was in charge of bringing everyone a snack."

I understand the concept, as you're not supposed to add use single word sentence fragments, removing a comma if necessary, but when did it become standard english to remove the comma from attributions?

Is this some weird bug in WORD, or did someone suddenly change the English language while I was sleeping one night (kinda like they did when leading transition words like "so" and "therefore" now require commas, rather than adding them after the clause?

Replies: Dominions Son Quasirandom markselias11 Switch Blayde Emmeran

Dominions Son 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

but when did it become standard english to remove the comma from attributions?

What? Why do you imagine that the word grammar checker would understand dialog attribution?

Is this some weird bug in WORD, or did someone suddenly change the English language while I was sleeping one night

Neither, its a feature.

Quasirandom 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Word is having a failure of machine learning as applied to the messiness of human language. Ignore it and move on.

Replies: daisydesiree

daisydesiree 🚫

@Quasirandom

Word is great in helping me find when I write the wrong your / you're and things like that but it's comma suggestions drive me crazy

I mean crazier ; )

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@daisydesiree

drive me crazy

least it's not a long drive...

Replies: karactr

karactr 🚫

@bk69

least it's not a long drive...

and probably in reverse

Replies: daisydesiree

daisydesiree 🚫

@karactr

and it helps me find its / it's but not in my posts here!

markselias11 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Is this some weird bug in WORD, or did someone suddenly change the English language while I was sleeping one night

It's not necessarily a bug in WORD or a change in the language. I think it's more the limitations of an automated grammar system versus one where you go through and check every word by hand. I just don't think the WORD program has the capability to keep up with the nuances of the English language. Let's face it, we shift what is and is not "grammatically correct" all the time. I remember years ago that when you were doing a list you had to put a comma after everything.

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar, and condoms

When I was in high school that was the ONLY way you could write that sentence. Now it's grammatically acceptable to write:

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar and condoms

I have a similar issue with using words like "Very" and "Really". Word doesn't like me using them. I see those little squiggly lines and it drives me NUTS. I was talking to TeNderLoin about it not too long ago. The example that was given was using the sentence "There was a very big dog" which the article I was reading said wasn't "proper" since "very" is a weak descriptive term. It suggested "There was a monstorous dog". Very big is perfectly acceptable if I just want to describe a dog that is bigger than his counterparts. MONSTOROUS sounds like I'm talking about Cerberus guarding that gates of Hades.

But I digress. WORD does the best it can, but it's just not programmed to pick up nuances in writing. It's not adaptive to individual style either.

Replies: Switch Blayde GreyWolf Crumbly Writer Remus2

Switch Blayde 🚫

@markselias11

"There was a very big dog" which the article I was reading said wasn't "proper" since "very" is a weak descriptive term.

Mark Twain famously said to "substitute 'damn' every time you're inclined to write 'very;' your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."

Replies: markselias11 Crumbly Writer joyR

markselias11 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Mark Twain famously said to "substitute 'damn' every time you're inclined to write 'very;' your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."

Ha! I hadn't heard that quote before. I'm gonna give TeNderLoin a workout now LOL!

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Switch Blayde

So,

"There was a very big dog" which the article I was reading said wasn't "proper" since "very" is a weak descriptive term."

should instead be:

"There was an exceptionally humongous damn fucking dog"? The adjectives are definitely stronger, with an extra one just for the damn editors! ;)

By the way, they technically aren't 'weak' verbs, they're 'passive' (i.e. non-active) adjectives. The whole idea behind not using adjectives is that they're typically a band-aid for badly phrased sentences (i.e. if you use active/action verbs, you won't need so many damn adjectives).

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

So,

"There was a very big dog" which the article I was reading said wasn't "proper" since "very" is a weak descriptive term."

should instead be:

I'd go with BFD: Big Fucking Dog.

joyR 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Mark Twain famously said to "substitute 'damn' every time you're inclined to write 'very;' your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."

Very damn interesting.

Replies: awnlee_jawking

awnlee_jawking 🚫

@joyR

Mark Twain famously said to "substitute 'damn' every time you're inclined to write 'very;' your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."

Shouldn't that be 'edamn' rather than 'every'?

AJ

Replies: joyR Switch Blayde

joyR 🚫

@awnlee_jawking

Shouldn't that be 'edamn' rather than 'every'?

Only if you intend cussing out a specific type of round Dutch cheese.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee_jawking

Shouldn't that be 'edamn' rather than 'every'?

It took me a while to figure that one out.
(That's why I rarely do global replaces.)

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

It took me a while to figure that one out.

The most recent episodes of 'Deep Space 9' shown on UK network TV were directed by Adamn Brooks ;-)

AJ

GreyWolf 🚫

@markselias11

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar, and condoms

When I was in high school that was the ONLY way you could write that sentence. Now it's grammatically acceptable to write:

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar and condoms

Interesting. That's the 'Oxford comma' (or serial comma), which I was definitely NOT taught in high school. It is, and may always be, controversial. I prefer it, but understand people who don't.

Replies: markselias11

markselias11 🚫
Updated:

@GreyWolf

Interesting. That's the 'Oxford comma' (or serial comma), which I was definitely NOT taught in high school. It is, and may always be, controversial. I prefer it, but understand people who don't.

I've always grown up using it. This is an example of WHY I've been told to use it.

https://annhandley.com/ah/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Oxford-comma-explained.png

Replies: awnlee jawking Grey Wolf

awnlee jawking 🚫

@markselias11

Am I the only person who thinks the second part is misleading? Wouldn't something stronger than a comma needed to introduce a list, albeit of only two names?

AJ

Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@markselias11

The Wikipedia page for the serial comma is full of interesting examples on both sides of the debate.

Wikipedia: Serial Comma

There are many cases where the serial/Oxford comma removes ambiguity, some where it creates it, and a few where neither comma style resolves ambiguity. Rewording is the only solution in some cases. Of course, these are hard to catch for an author, since you know how you meant the list.

Overall, I think it's better.

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@markselias11

When I was in high school that was the ONLY way you could write that sentence. Now it's grammatically acceptable to write:

Actually that's known as the serial comma, and it's handled differently in America than it is in the Brit English universe. So, it's once more a case of 'pick a side and stick with it', rather than either one being right or wrong (just never mention that to other side, or you'll have a long, long fight on your hands!

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@markselias11

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar, and condoms

When I was in high school that was the ONLY way you could write that sentence. Now it's grammatically acceptable to write:

Mom told me I needed to buy eggs, milk, sugar and condoms

Up until I exited academia in 78/79, the first one was expected for everything I wrote. I'm long on STEM, and short on Lit as far as education and training goes, so for the latter subject's finer points, others will be more knowledgeable. However it's a habit now, and from what I can determine, many of the Lit specialist will argue those finer points until, and if, hell freezes over.

As such, the best advice I've been given is go with what you know as there are few, if any, indisputable rules to go by.

Replies: Crumbly Writer

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Remus2

As such, the best advice I've been given is go with what you know as there are few, if any, indisputable rules to go by.

Again, the general guideline is "be consistent". Readers will recognize your own style differences and will adapt, but if you change mid-stream, they'll typically come down hard. So establish how you handle those situations and you'll be fine with all but the sticklers, whom you'll never satisfy anyway.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

So establish how you handle those situations and you'll be fine with all but the sticklers, whom you'll never satisfy anyway.

That is what I'm doing now. After many attempts to write 'properly' I've ditched them all as they don't flow in my mind.

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Remus2

That is what I'm doing now. After many attempts to write 'properly'

not even the Lit Profs agree about what is properly - we could go with how Chaucer wrote, or Shakespeare, or Dickens, or Wadsworth, or any other author who sold books around the world, and you'd have about as many different 'proper' ways to write as there are authors on the list - definitely one for every publishing house.

Replies: Crumbly Writer

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

not even the Lit Profs agree about what is properly - we could go with how Chaucer wrote, or Shakespeare, or Dickens, or Wadsworth, or any other author who sold books around the world, and you'd have about as many different 'proper' ways to write as there are authors on the list - definitely one for every publishing house.

The primary reason why I keep championing different writing techniques, isn't based on which I prefer more, but on my role as an Independent Publisher, and my attempts to bring standardizations to my own stories, rather than any overwhelming urge to dictate standards for anyone else.

Thus in looking for consistent trends, I tend to stick with the longer literary tends in publishing, rather than what are the current publishing nuances.

But like any author, I prefer bucking trends and going my own way, for the sake of the story, rather than merely going with the 'flow' (of the masses, not the story flow, which is more about pacing and your narrative 'voice).

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

"But," Leslie said, standing, "I was in charge of bringing everyone a snack."

I typed that sentence into my version of Word and it did not flag an error.

There is no error. That's how you punctuate dialogue. The comma isn't part of the dialogue sentence. It's separating the beginning of the dialogue from the dialogue tag.

Replies: Crumbly Writer helmut_meukel

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Switch Blayde

There is no error. That's how you punctuate dialogue. The comma isn't part of the dialogue sentence. It's separating the beginning of the dialogue from the dialogue tag.

The point is (and I do have one lying around here somewhere), the newest versions of Word only flags that one instance of an attribution, and it seems to be related to one-word sentence starters, but it doesn't seem to apply to "However," … or "So," …
so it's gotta be a big old fat bug!

But the newer grammar rules were introduced about 5 or 6 upgrades ago (i.e. several months ago, and therefore only if you automatically upgrade the app, which is always a mistake (ex: see my comments about Word jumping around and refreshing the screen in a different place).

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

so it's gotta be a big old fat bug!

With MicroShit it's never a bug, it's an undocumented feature.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Switch Blayde

"But," Leslie said, standing, "I was in charge of bringing everyone a snack."

[...]

There is no error. That's how you punctuate dialogue. The comma isn't part of the dialogue sentence. It's separating the beginning of the dialogue from the dialogue tag.

Hmm, you are right, the comma isn't part of the dialogue, so why is it placed within the quotes?
Ok, I know the answer: it's the English way to be different from other languages. :-)

HM.

Replies: Crumbly Writer Grey Wolf

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Hmm, you are right, the comma isn't part of the dialogue, so why is it placed within the quotes?
Ok, I know the answer: it's the English way to be different from other languages.

Actually, once you get into story pacing, you realize that, more than anything else, the comma, like the colon, semi-colon and period, signify delays in speaking of a predetermined length (a semi-colon is longer than a period, but not as long as a full colon, which can sometimes take all day to poop out!).

Thus, at least in terms of story pacing and how readers literally read the passage in their minds (always a bad habit, but one which most readers are unable to break), it denotes a forced pause, and the speaker (narrator?) takes a breath to read the next sentence fragment.

Replies: Grey Wolf richardshagrin

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

I completely agree with the observation about the comma indicating pacing, which I sometimes use when breaking the rules in punctuating dialogue, where the way people speak often doesn't contain breaks.

For instance:
"Of course I love you." vs "Of course, I love you."

The second is more 'correct', but most people don't pause when using 'of course' to lead a title.

That said, the pacing argument doesn't have a thing to do with why the comma goes inside vs outside the quotation mark. Quotation marks don't really affect pacing.

My pet peeve on quote marks has to do with single quotes. I'm using single quotes to punctuate titles of other works. That itself isn't 'correct' - they should be italicized - but since, like many writers (SOL and elsewhere), I'm using italics to denote emphasis, single quotes are a good fallback.

So:
"I want to go see 'Star Wars'."
vs
"I want to go see 'Star Wars.'"

The second is arguably more correct, but in my use of single quotes, the quotes contain the title, and there is no period in the title Star Wars. Since there's still a double-quote in which to place the period, I'd prefer to punctuate it that way.

"I want to go see 'Help!'", on the other hand, is good as is, since the exclamation point is part of the title and it doesn't need a period.

richardshagrin 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

a full colon, which can sometimes take all day to poop out!).

Is that why Europeans colonized the American continents? I suppose it was a poopy experience for many of them.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

On the other hand, suddenly finding yourself with a semi-colon is life threatening and requires immediate emergency surgery to fix.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@helmut_meukel

it's the English way to be different from other languages

This isn't exactly true. It's the English way to assimilate bits of every language it comes in contact with, strip out many of the complications but leave just enough to cause confusion, and move on. If you look at the history of English, it used to have things like gendered word endings (or beginnings) and very complicated tenses. Every time it got into enough contact with another language, things got cut loose.

This is partly why we have so very, very many words - we keep grabbing things from other languages. This makes English very expressive (and very good for wordplay) at the cost of needing really, really big dictionaries.

And, of course, British English (arguably more 'real') places commas outside quote marks rather than inside, as does International Standard English.

It might be fair to say that it's the English way to be different from itself.

Emmeran 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Grammar rules be damned, I simply ignore the software and keep writing. I have editors to decide whether the Oxford comma is in vogue this week or not.

The quickest way to minimize your creative output is to worry about little crap that can be sanded smooth later.

Replies: Crumbly Writer

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Emmeran

Grammar rules be damned, I simply ignore the software and keep writing. I have editors to decide whether the Oxford comma is in vogue this week or not.

If I left comma formatting to my editors, one would set it while another would reset it. For me, I'm more concerned with consistency, and more often than not, I keep the formatting consistent between each story. It drives my editors nuts, but at least readers know what to expect after a few pages.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Single-word Sentence Fragments and "But …"

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