Forum: Author Hangout

Photographs of Characters

PotomacBob 🚫

Most authors on SOL (at least in the stories I've read), in describing characters, include descriptions of a character's physical appearance.
Some authors in some stories on SOL let the readers know that the physical appearance of some of their characters are based the physical appearance of well-known people, and they provide links to or references to those well-known people so we readers can look for ourselves.
I understand why an author would use a photograph of someone to help "see" what a character might look like and make it easier to write a description. Does anybody know what readers think? Does access to a photograph of a real person help the reader "see" the character? Or does the photograph of a real person detract from what the reader sees in his/her own mind?

Replies: REP StarFleet Carl Pete Fox Keet joyR irvmull irvmull Pete Fox awnlee jawking Freyrs_stories

REP 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Does access to a photograph of a real person help the reader "see" the character? Or does the photograph of a real person detract from what the reader sees in his/her own mind?

It seems to me that both are true. It depends on the reader.

Some people have very good imaginations, so a photo is not necessary. They prefer to create an image that they like, so a photo creates conflict between their imagination and the photo image.

Some people have very poor imaginations. They have difficulty creating a satisfactory image, so a photo is very helpful.

I believe the main thing in a story is creating the characters' personality. Photos don't help and can cause a problem when the photo is of a known celebrity that has a personality that is very different than what is described in the story.

Imagine showing a photo of a male celebrity who is known to have a very strong personality and opinions. Then provide a description that conflicts with celebrity personality and opinions.

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@REP

Imagine showing a photo of a male celebrity who is known to have a very strong personality and opinions. Then provide a description that conflicts with celebrity personality and opinions.

Exactly.
Suppose that the character in the story is described as the most ethical and good person around with a reference a photo of a celebrity. A year later...
News comes out that the celebrity is actually a rapist/child molester/abuser. It happened multiple times in the last years.

A photo in itself can help but never reference a publicly well known person.

Another thing is that sometimes a celebrity is only know to real old timers because he/she was a celebrity many years ago. Younger readers will have no idea who you referring to.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@PotomacBob

Does access to a photograph of a real person help the reader "see" the character? Or does the photograph of a real person detract from what the reader sees in his/her own mind?

As a reader, I typically don't need a photograph. I can picture the person in my mind. There are frequently times in dead tree novels that the picture on the dust jacket doesn't match my mental image of the character involved.

As an AUTHOR, I've found it easier to pull up a real world picture, so that I can at least one point of reference for the character.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

There are frequently times in dead tree novels that the picture on the dust jacket doesn't match my mental image of the character involved

Not only your mental image, but quite often the description by the author. I've read the artist of the cover picture got only title and the blurb to work from!
The decision maker at the publisher didn't care to read the book or at least an excerpt with the description either.
The author claimed his first sight of the cover image was when the book was in print already.

HM.

Dominions Son 🚫

Does access to a photograph of a real person help the reader "see" the character? Or does the photograph of a real person detract from what the reader sees in his/her own mind?

For me as a reader, it depends on how good the authors description of the character is, assuming the author bothers with a physical description.

If the description is good, I wouldn't bother with a photograph even if a link to one was provided.

On the other hand I've seen "she looked like {female celebrity XYZ}" with no further description. In that case a photo would help.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Dominions Son

I've seen "she looked like {female celebrity XYZ}" with no further description.

That can really not work so well.

Consider, back in the early/mid-90s, many stories with celebs/celeb lookalikes went with Gillian Anderson. And while she's rather attractive for a 50+yo, she's not quite as much of a "every nerd's fantasy".

I mean, even one day, the Jessica Alba references in DVA won't make much sense. (Actually, she's still pretty fine, although describing her currently as a 'goddess' is not as accurate as it was twenty years ago.)

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@bk69

That can really not work so well.

I don't ever think that works well, but not for the same reason as you.

Yes, female celebrities age, but you can reference them to a specific age/point in their career, and pictures of THAT will always be available.

I just think it's shitty not to even attempt a proper description of your own on top of the looks like XYZ.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Dominions Son

Yeah, but if I specify a character looks like Betty White did when she was 30, the reader is gonna have a momentary flash of current Betty White before the sentence is over, and that could have a bad result.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking Mushroom

Dominions Son 🚫

@bk69

Yeah, but if I specify a character looks like Betty White did when she was 30, the reader is gonna have a momentary flash of current Betty White before the sentence is over, and that could have a bad result.

Perhaps, but:

1. Only applies to women who remain celebrities into their later years.

2. It's actually temporary. Eventually you get to a generation of readers who won't have that kind of knowledge of the celebrity in question.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@bk69

if I specify a character looks like Betty White did when she was 30

I, as a reader, will immediately mark down your authorial skills.

I have absolutely no idea who Betty White is/was. Is she a real person, a cartoon character, a film or television role?

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I have absolutely no idea who Betty White is/was.

Seriously? She's a well known actress. She plays(played) one of the three main characters on the TV show Golden Girls.

Replies: Ernest Bywater Eddie Davidson awnlee jawking

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Dominions Son

She plays(played) one of the three main characters on the TV show Golden Girls.

Betty has been on TV and film since the first days of TV - originally as a product model and later in various acting roles.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Dominions Son

I appreciate the frame of reference.

If I didn't know who Betty White was (she is literally a pioneer of powerful women in television being the first female talk show host and producer with 50+ years in show business), I have this cool thing called "Google" which allows me to access the entire sum of human knowledge pretty much.

So I can use that to look up her nudes to help me fap to a Golden Girls fanfic.

It may seem "lazy" but what I often do is offer the physical description in the context of the story organically and if I do have a basis I have someone say something like:

"Wow, you look like Dana Plato"

"I've been told that before. Who is she?"

"She used to play the daughter on the show Different Strokes"

"I never heard of that either."

"Watch Nick at Nite"

Meanwhile, the reader still knows she has a slightly upturned nose, sandy blonde hair, cute butt, smallish boobs, light dusting of freckles on her cute face.

For people like me - getting a reference to a celeb is not a bad thing at all because I also tend to think "Oh that person looks like (XYZ celebrity)" anyway.

Replies: Dominions Son BarBar awnlee jawking Ernest Bywater StarFleet Carl

Dominions Son 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

It may seem "lazy" but what I often do is offer the physical description in the context of the story organically and if I do have a basis I have someone say something like:

"Wow, you look like Dana Plato"

In my opinion, that is the way to do it.

BarBar 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

It may seem "lazy" but what I often do is offer the physical description in the context of the story organically and if I do have a basis I have someone say something like:

"Wow, you look like Dana Plato"

I totally agree with this approach.

OR If you as an author have a particular celeb in mind, put a photo of them on your screen and write a physical description of what you see. Then put that physical description in your story. Nobody need ever know you are basing your character on a celebrity.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

Meanwhile, the reader still knows she has a slightly upturned nose, sandy blonde hair, cute butt, smallish boobs, light dusting of freckles on her cute face.

How on earth is someone from a different culture supposed to deduce that from your extract? Or are your stories written specifically for your particular tribe?

AJ

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@awnlee jawking

How on earth is someone from a different culture supposed to deduce that from your extract? Or are your stories written specifically for your particular tribe?

Google Images works wonders.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

Meanwhile, the reader still knows she has a slightly upturned nose, sandy blonde hair, cute butt, smallish boobs, light dusting of freckles on her cute face.

I very much doubt it, as they'd have to leave the story to do an Internet search on Dana Plato to understand what the hell you're talk about. That's about both the actress and the show as I'd not heard of either until this post.

While I did watch a lot of evening and weekend TV from the mid 1960s to the mid 1990s, I only watched what I felt was the better shows available on the TV stations here in Australia. I don't even remember if I ever saw Different Strokes on a TV broadcast schedule.

Replies: daisydesiree

daisydesiree 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I agree with this. I had to look up dana plato. Different Strokes sounds like the title of a porn movie but it's a comedy. Describe the celebrity attributes.

dd

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@daisydesiree

I agree with this. I had to look up dana plato. Different Strokes sounds like the title of a porn movie but it's a comedy. Describe the celebrity attributes.

It was also a Hard 'R' rated movie that specifically starred Dana Plato, so she could lose her 'little girl' image from the TV show.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

I believe she also appeared in Playboy for the same reason. Several child actresses tried that.

StarFleet Carl 🚫
Updated:

@Eddie Davidson

It may seem "lazy" but what I often do is offer the physical description in the context of the story organically and if I do have a basis I have someone say something like:

"Wow, you look like Dana Plato"

Yes, you look ashen ...

Dana Plato has been dead for 21 years, and was cremated.

I've seen discussions where someone said, "He looks like Elvis.", and the other person asked, "Army Elvis, Movie Elvis, or Fried Peanut Butter and Banana Sandwich Elvis?"

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Jay Cantrell's Unforgettable Weeks has a grandmother talking about flashing The Beatles and the Rolling Stones. The teen she is talking to doesn't really know who the Beatles are and goes Eeewwww! at the idea of flashing the fossilized Stones.
Give it another decade and the Rolling Stones will be known as the Head Stones and all of The Beatles will be laying on their backs with their arms & legs crossed in the air, so even that gentle reference to how pop culture fades will be gone, like tears in the rain.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

TV show Golden Girls.

I've heard of that. It even made it to UK TV. It sounded as exciting as mouldy bread so I never watched it.

AJ

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@awnlee jawking

She was also the slutty one on either the Dick Van Dyke or Mary Tyler Moore show. (Or maybe the character crossed over too?)

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@bk69

I'm not sure Dick Van Dyke's show made it to the UK. I think Mary Tyler Moore's did but it was daytime TV.

AJ

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Ah... I would've figured them to be about as well known over there as something like Fawlty Towers is over here. At least for MTM.

Mushroom 🚫

@bk69

Yeah, but if I specify a character looks like Betty White did when she was 30, the reader is gonna have a momentary flash of current Betty White before the sentence is over, and that could have a bad result.

Not me at all. Hell, my first memories of her was from the Mary Tyler Moore Show when she was in her 50's, and she still looked damned good. As well as her frequent appearances on Password with her husband, and on Match Game.

I think of her, and still picture Sue Ann Nivens.

Replies: Eddie Davidson

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@Mushroom

I think of her, and still picture Sue Ann Nivens.

I think that is how you can tell how old/cool someone is.

The same is true from the actor Tim Curry.

If you know him from Clue or Legend that puts you in a certain category.

If you know him from the Wild Thornberry's as the dad that puts you in another.

If you know him as Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture show that puts you in the correct category. ;)

To me, Betty White will always be Sue Ann Nivens and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

Although, she was pretty Golden on the Golden Girls. That was just a role that Sue Ann Nivens was playing to me.

Replies: palamedes bk69 Mushroom StarFleet Carl

palamedes 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

So do you have a deck of Betty White playing cards then ?

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@palamedes

So do you have a deck of Betty White playing cards then ?

The finny thing is, that actually exists. And tell me you would not have wanted one of her in the day.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1007/15/nude-playing-cards-women-of-the-world-betty-white_1_caa82fb4299f10f8797c7e25cadad695.jpg

In the 1940's she did more than a few pinup and topless shoots.

https://www.yolocelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/betty-white-naked-7-photos-celebsdude.com-86.jpg

hubba-hubba

Replies: Dominions Son palamedes

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Mushroom

Your links don't work. The first throws a 404 error and the second gives me access denied.

This should work for the second.

https://www.yolocelebs.com/betty-white-naked-7-photos/

Replies: madnige

madnige 🚫

@Dominions Son

The first throws a 404 error

A 403 (forbidden) error - it's there, but you can't get at it. The site has a subscription service model, so I'd guess that that's unlikely to be circumventable.

palamedes 🚫

@Mushroom

I preffer dark hair but hey if the lights are out ;)p

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@palamedes

So true. On so many levels.

bk69 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

If you know him from Clue or Legend that puts you in a certain category.

Huh?

If you know him from the Wild Thornberry's as the dad that puts you in another.

What?

If you know him as Frankenfurter

Oh, ok. What was that other stuff you mentioned?

(note: Rocky Horror is timeless, and pretty much all ages should know it. Whether it was seen in theater when it was released, or seen in theater during the many, many screenings ever since. Usually in 'art' cinemas that are much more suited than mainstream theaters.)

Mushroom 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

If you know him as Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture show that puts you in the correct category. ;)

I think of him for 3 outstanding performances, and 1 of his voice jobs.

Rocky Horror, It, Earth 2 (which I swear he channeled Mark Hamill as The Trickster for the original Flash TV series), and Hexxus from Ferngully.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

The same is true from the actor Tim Curry.

If you know him from Clue or Legend that puts you in a certain category.

If you know him from the Wild Thornberry's as the dad that puts you in another.

If you know him as Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture show that puts you in the correct category. ;)

You forgot 'The Hunt for Red October' in there.

And he'll always be Frankenfurter ...

When I was in college, EVERY Friday night one of the theaters in town did a midnight showing of RHPS. If I remember correctly, I think it was for about five or six years in a row. Talk about Cosplay ...

Darian Wolfe 🚫

For myself, I prefer a scant description as I prefer the picture I create in my mind. I prefer it to even the written description. It actually pulls me out of suspension of disbelief when so and so is written as blond when I KNOW they are brunette. I know because they are a brunette when I look at them in my mind.

awnlee jawking 🚫

From a philosophical point of view, since we're supposed to be aspiring wordsmiths, isn't it a sign of failure if we have to resort to alternative media because our wordsmithing skills are inadequate?

AJ

Replies: Remus2 Dominions Son Eddie Davidson

Remus2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I'd have to agree with that. If they need to resort to pictures, maybe they need to be writing a comic book instead.

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

From a philosophical point of view, since we're supposed to be aspiring wordsmiths, isn't it a sign of failure if we have to resort to alternative media because our wordsmithing skills are inadequate?

It depends. I would agree with you where alternative media is being used as a substitute for proper wordsmithing.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with alternative media used as a supplement to rather than a substitute for properly done wordsmithing.

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

isn't it a sign of failure if we have to resort to alternative media because our wordsmithing skills are inadequate?

The fallacy is to my wordsmithing skills are inferior if I reference a celebrity. I am just a pervert who likes to picture Morgan Fairchild or Dana Plato in some sexual situation or a reasonable facismile thereof.

If you set your story in a space ship we all have a general idea of what they look like without too much description needed. If you set your story in the "Old West" you've done the same thing. Our minds picture dusty old towns and tumbleweeds.

Having a common frame of reference is not a bad thing.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with alternative media used as a supplement to rather than a substitute for properly done wordsmithing.

Exactly. Opening a story to a picture of a butt, pulled apart, with a pussy dripping down the stool she is sitting and the woman face forward only enhances. It isn't a picture story nor is it a comic book. It is simply a visual supplement. Great way of looking at it.

Mushroom 🚫

I know that early on, Skippy did that with his Summer Camp series, including a slew of pictures to what the girls looked like with I want to say European models.

Myself, I did something similar with Country Boy, City girl. In that I later added in my blog an image of a porn actress that closely resembles the girls as I described them. But I in no way actually based them off of real people. I simply picked an actress from the era which closely resembled how I had imagined then.

ChiMi 🚫

Rarely do I picture a character fully in my mind. Most characters are defined by their characteristics with a pinch of hair colour and style. The look of their faces is completely irrelevant for me.

If I would rank it:

1. all character traits
2. hair colour
3. body scars/defects
4. hair style
5. eye colour
6. height

10. boob size
11. boob perkiness

20. ass descriptions

30. rest of the face that goes beyond "beautiful", "homely", "ugly", etc.
31. hands/finger/toes/feet
32. any vagina visual descriptions
33. any penis visual descriptions

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@ChiMi

3. body scars/defects

Presumably that covers tramp stamps too since they're effectively scar tissue ;-)

AJ

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Presumably that covers tramp stamps too since they're effectively scar tissue

Actually, those would qualify as 'defects'

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@bk69

They are scar tissue that tells you the person is defective.

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

How on earth is someone from a different culture supposed to deduce that from your extract? Or are your stories written specifically for your particular tribe?

I don't understand the comment about 'tribes'. I don't live in one of those. It almost seems like you want to argue or be pedantic or both.

I am not going to argue it with you. If you can't figure out from "slightly upturned nose, sandy blonde hair, cute butt, smallish boobs, light dusting of freckles on her cute face." what that is - get a better tribe.

That being said - when dealing with people they frequently say things to me like "You look like Robin Williams"

I don't have to say "Mork and Mindy Williams or Jumanji Williams?"

I know exactly what version I look like. If I am writing a conversation that occurs organically unless I am writing a smart ass - they would not ask that question.

If you call a young woman "Dana Plato-esque" - she would probably be able to infer you mean Dana Plato before she was put in an urn. I am not sure why we need to have this absurd conversation.

Ultimately, I think this also boils down to if you are a visual storyteller or not. Many people process information differently.

"How it feels" is sensory. Sensory learners react different way than visual learners.

"How it sounds" is auditory - again - different sense is their primary frame of reference.

Visual learners tend to look up when they are trying to recall information - almost as if they are looking it up in their mind.

People like us tend to need a visual frame of reference. I frequently put people into a "You look like (this person)" category when I meet them. It's just a natural thing for me. It may not be for you.

That being said - illustrated stories predate all of us and people have been including them on the covers of books since the earliest days.

I see no harm in letting the reader in on presenting a picture to tell a story. In fact, I feel that it is a bit presumptuous to say that someone lacks the ability to write simply because they also enjoy a picture.

Replies: awnlee jawking StarFleet Carl

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

"slightly upturned nose, sandy blonde hair, cute butt, smallish boobs, light dusting of freckles on her cute face."

I can understand that verbal description. But I can't see how I'm supposed to deduce that appearance from the comment, "Watch Nick at Nite". I presume that's a film, video or TV show that someone from your culture would readily get.

The 'tribe' was a reference to our cultural divisions, not our ethnicities. I imagine there are some people quite a few people in the UK who watched 'Golden Girls'. Some might have even heard of Diane Plato. I don't belong to that tribe.

If you want everyone outside your cultural circle to understand your descriptions, my advice would be to stick to the verbal form.

AJ

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

If you call a young woman "Dana Plato-esque" - she would probably be able to infer you mean Dana Plato before she was put in an urn. I am not sure why we need to have this absurd conversation.

Because it's not absurd. What AJ (and I hate that I'm agreeing with him, but he's right) is saying is that people won't necessarily know who you're talking about, because they didn't watch the show, either because it's the wrong generation, or it's the wrong continent.

You might have to differentiate between Mork Williams and Patch Adams Williams, though, although while Robin Williams didn't change much in that time, a LOT of people do.

If I said, Hey, do you think Helen Mirren was really hot in that movie? You might think I'm talking about the movie, R.E.D., and while she's attractive for an older woman, she's not that hot. But I was talking about Excalibur (or Caligula).

You're making the false assumption that everyone in the world knows what you're talking about.

I just had that come up in the novel I'm writing. I was going to have the main character say to himself, Wow, that guy looks just like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Should be easy, right? Except the novel is set in 1984, and Die Hard didn't come out until 1986.

Ah, well, it's not Christmas until Hans Gruber falls from the Nakatomi Tower!

Replies: awnlee jawking Ernest Bywater

awnlee jawking 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Robin Williams

Robbie Williams, a 'chubby backing dancer' from the boy band Take That, once won a comedy award because people confused him with Robin Williams.

Wow, that guy looks just like Hans Gruber from Die Hard

Watched the film and enjoyed it, so I know what Hans Gruber looked like. But those who aren't fans of violent action movies probably wouldn't. I would expect a higher proportion of Brits would know what Alan Rickman looks like.

AJ

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Brits would know what Alan Rickman looks like.

He looks like the best Sheriff of Nottingham ever.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Because it's not absurd. What AJ (and I hate that I'm agreeing with him, but he's right) is saying is that people won't necessarily know who you're talking about, because they didn't watch the show, either because it's the wrong generation, or it's the wrong continent.

Ayep, alluding to film or TV personalities can be very localised. It's like poor Australian me wondering why a certain writer had two hungry characters suddenly deciding to dance by going to the IHOP. They knew what it meant, but I didn't, then, and I've always had a good idea of US culture; except that one went by my very fast.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

If I don't get a reference I have Google.

If you mention something from pop culture, and I don't know it. I just look it up.

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

If I don't get a reference I have Google.

most people do. However, it means they have to leave the story to look it up in order to understand the scene, and damages their enjoyment of the story. Do that too often and they don't return to the story, and they'll also add you to their 'do not read' list of authors.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

and damages their enjoyment of the story.

Not for everyone.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I've noticed one or two authors who 'describe' their principal female characters by saying that they look like such-and-such a porn star. I've often wondered just how many readers actually google for pictures, knowing they'll probably be from porn sites.

AJ

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I've often wondered just how many readers actually google for pictures, knowing they'll probably be from porn sites.

A good question I doubt we'll ever get a valid answer to.

I often try to give just enough description to allow the reader to picture someone in their mind, but to leave enough not described so they can fill in the detail and take ownership of part of the story as a way of getting them more involved in the story.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I often try to give just enough description to allow the reader to picture someone in their mind, but to leave enough not described so they can fill in the detail

The point at which it is just enough for that will be different for every reader.

Replies: irvmull Ernest Bywater

irvmull 🚫

@Dominions Son

If you describe a character as "the most beautiful girl I ever saw" - better NOT mention anyone whose picture can be looked up on line.

Tastes vary.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

I'll have to disagree. That is intended to showcase the tastes of the character making the statement, not a description for the reader to picture the subject girl.

I'll restate my opinion here in case any one was unclear.

"Looks some real life celebrity" as a substitute for a physical description is bad writing.

A proper written physical description supplemented with either a reference to "looks like (some real world celebrity)" or a link to a specific picture is fine.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Dominions Son

The point at which it is just enough for that will be different for every reader.

true, but it's a wide window for them to work with, and it reaches the most people. if you make it so specific anyone can draw a oicture of the person you can run legal risks, but you'll likely get a lot of emails from people saying you got a specific part wrong.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

true, but it's a wide window for them to work with, and it reaches the most people.

I'll agree that you probably don't want to over-do the descriptions.

Pick a point that you as an author are comfortable with and stick with it.

I think that there is enough variation among readers that trying to find the kind of sweet spot you describe is probably an exercise in futility.

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I think that there is enough variation among readers that trying to find the kind of sweet spot you describe is probably an exercise in futility.

I disagree about it being futile, but mainly because I think it's more of a giant spot than a small spot.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I think it's more of a giant spot than a small spot.

I don't think it's a small spot. I think it's a giant mess and your sweet spot doesn't exist at all.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

enough description to allow the reader to picture someone in their mind, but to leave enough not described so they can fill in the detail

Me too!

Perhaps there's still hope I could become a decent writer one day.

AJ

Rev_Cotton_Mather 🚫

As a reader, I am okay with either a short description or a comparison to a celebrity. My brain can fill in the gaps. But the amateurish way of introducing a character is what will make me consider dropping the story:

"Let me pause here to describe, in excruciating detail, this group of characters, down to exaggerated bust and penis sizes.

"Okay, now that I have done that, let's go back to the story."

Sorry, kiddos, but if you can't work the character attributes into the narrative, you have a lot of work to do on this craft.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Rev_Cotton_Mather

Let me pause here to describe, in excruciating detail, this group of characters, down to exaggerated bust and penis sizes.

"Okay, now that I have done that, let's go back to the story.

I think that's part of the stroke story ancestry of so many SOL stories. In a stroke story, the visuals are vitally important - if not necessarily to the reader, at least to the author. Now, while some argue that giving a physical description of the knockout redhead that includes height (before and after her 6" heels are accounted for) weight and bra size is excessive... it says something about a narrator that he easily picked up all those details in the time it took him to pick his tongue up off the floor. (Yes, he could've come by the information in the time between first encountering her and his relating the story, but let's ignore that possibility.)

In general, tho... yeah, while it's more convenient for the reader to get the visuals all at once, it rarely reads well.

Pete Fox 🚫

@PotomacBob

I searched 'boob size' and found this thread.

I have been having a message chat with SwithBlade complimenting him on his show don't tell style.

I am looking for good words, ways to describe a breast in its various sizes without going A, B, C, DD or apple, melon bla bla... He uses good words like conical for younger then round etc for more mature.

Is there a post or document anywhere on the forum that lays out good show vs tell word for the woman's body and traits like face?

Photo- good question. I often find a picture.. like from the Playboy Archives that is like the person I am writing, then describe my character keeping the image in mind. I only do this for main characters. Sometimes if important I work... 'Jane reminds me of that French actress Eva Greene but shorter". The reader can look her up if interested.

I thought about experimenting with hyperlinks to images but that is not practical or allowed on SOL as far as I know.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking Vincent Berg

Dominions Son 🚫

@Pete Fox

He uses good words like conical for younger then round etc for more mature.

That's shape, not size.

Size: Hand full, two hand fulls.

Replies: Ron Jon

Ron Jon 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Size: Hand full, two hand fulls

Is that a small girls hand or an ape like man's hand...

I'll add handfuls to my quiver but I like conical it's a good word.

Peach equals a small boob, grapefruit half a nice medium tit, but what about that big chested girl? Cantaloupe.

Pete Fox

Replies: Dominions Son Dominions Son Vincent Berg

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ron Jon

I'll add handfuls to my quiver but I like conical it's a good word.

It is a good word, it just doesn't say much about breast size. large breasts are unlikely to be conical due to gravity, but that's as far as it goes for size. Round breasts can by any size from tiny to giant.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Ron Jon

Is that a small girls hand or an ape like man's hand...

Presumptively, the POV character's hand.

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dominions Son

Is that a small girls hand or an ape like man's hand...

Presumptively, the POV character's hand.

Again, rather than describing their physical shape, why not just say "Her breasts seemed to call out to my hand to embrace each one, filling each in a comforting way, as I imagined her eyes twinkling as I did it."

Why pull descriptions from the very bottom of the barrel, just use different, and more meaningful, analogies.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Again, rather than describing their physical shape

We are talking about size not shape.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Ron Jon

Peach equals a small boob, grapefruit half a nice medium tit, but what about that big chested girl? Cantaloupe.

Or patties (i.e. Patty's patties), pancakes, or yearning to break free? There are so many meaningful alternatives, there's no reason to rely on such overused cliches.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pete Fox

Sometimes if important I work... 'Jane reminds me of that French actress Eva Greene but shorter". The reader can look her up if interested.

As a reader I'd prefer you didn't do that. If readers don't know what Eva Greene looks like, you're giving them an ultimatum - jerk yourselves out of the story to look it up, or do without a description. If a character's description furthers the story, it's the author's job to describe them.

AJ

Replies: madnige Ron Jon

madnige 🚫

@awnlee jawking

As a reader I'd prefer you didn't do that.

Ditto, not only for AJ's reason, but also, having looked up Eva Greene, it's insufficient as a description - it would need qualification with something like 'playing Morgan Pendragon in Camelot', as the actor's appearance in films is tailored to the wishes of the director. Once you get into that sort of detail, you may as well give a synopsis description instead - otherwise, people who remember her from Casino Royale would have an incorrect impression, possibly leading to cognitive dissonance when something you describe clashes with the reader's incorrect mental picture.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@madnige

having looked up Eva Greene

If there had been a porn clip allegedly showing her losing her virginity on screen, I might have wondered whether that was real blood or special effects.

As to what she looks like ...

AJ

Ron Jon 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

As a reader I'd prefer you didn't do that. If readers don't know what Eva Greene looks like, you're giving them an ultimatum - jerk yourselves out of the story to look it up, or do without a description. If a character's description furthers the story, it's the author's job to describe them.

Good to hear opinion. But you assume that's all there is in the story...I know I will already have given several characters details to the reader. Choosig to reference a know person is natural at times especially is she/he is exceptionally good looking or reminds us of someone. For me will remain a tool in the box. I will admit in a recent story I mentioned in passing at the very end his neice looked liked March 1970 and the great 9 page spread...teasin any reader to go look and find the pictures.

Pete Fox

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Pete Fox

Is there a post or document anywhere on the forum that lays out good show vs tell word for the woman's body and traits like face?

Simple: stop trying to describe (TELL) what they look like, and instead convey how the character reacts to them. Their dimensions are utterly unimportant to the story, but how they impact the protagonists is essentially all that matters.

Does he really care whether they resemble watermelons or not? Doubtful. What does, is the aspects of their personality which appeal to them, and how they relate to their bodies, more than a series of measurements do.

Again, the biggest problem with SDT is that, as an abstraction, they tend to pull the reader out of the story (ex: "A cantaloupe? Really? That seems a rather odd comparison") rather than pulling them fully into the protagonist's personal experiences. They (the readers) are thus not 'feeling' the story, they're merely being led from one event to the next.

Off-the-cuff Example:

When I met Alice, I noted that she appeared a little off balance, a tad top heavy, but what struck me is that it somehow fit her. When speaking, she'd lean back, looking people in the eyes with a commanding presence that capture your attention. It was hard to look away from her, and unless you were much shorter than her, your eyes rarely even registered on her breasts.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Does he really care whether they resemble watermelons or not? Doubtful.

But @Pete Fox has already stated, 'For me if the character is getting naked etc I would like to know how the author sees that person, is she blonde etc. Same with a few other details'.

AJ

Keet 🚫

@PotomacBob

I understand why an author would use a photograph of someone to help "see" what a character might look like and make it easier to write a description. Does anybody know what readers think?

I'm a reader. As with a lot of things, it depends. Some characters are difficult to describe but a picture can paint a thousand words. There is however one big problem with using photographs if the person depicted is (very) well known. If I 'know' the person in the photograph that also connects other characteristics of that person which are not necessarily valid for the character in the story. Men are very much visually orientated and I'm not different so I like incidental illustrations where they supports the story. This especially goes for maps and floor plans that would otherwise require boring, lengthy descriptions or would otherwise be difficult to envision. For persons I would say it's almost always best to use a picture of a totally unknown person unless you want the personal characteristics of a known person to be valid for your story character. In most cases though it would probably not be necessary to describe a person in detail. Does it matter that different readers envision different looks? Does it matter that one readers 'sees' a blond and another readers a brunette? Maybe an exception for something specific to the story or if used to indicate a character but often it will make no difference.

Replies: Pete Fox

Pete Fox 🚫

@Keet

Does it matter that different readers envision different looks? Does it matter that one readers 'sees' a blond and another readers a brunette? Maybe an exception for something specific to the story or if used to indicate a character but often it will make no difference.

For me if the character is getting naked etc I would like to know how the author sees that person, is she blonde etc. Same with a few other details. Otherwise I find it lazy. Also repeat that info occasionally remind us she is a blonde or dark haired. Ill stop reading a story if it does not have those details that help me to see and feel the scenes.

joyR 🚫

@PotomacBob

The lazy option;

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? (Link to licence free generic picture of "summer"

The wordsmith's option;

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" Etc…

For the complete description read William Shakespeare's Sonnet 18

The former option isn't writing, it is more akin to a scribbled note. It inspires nothing.

The latter has been around awhile, survived, prospered and still inspires.

A good story should entertain the reader, be they ditch digger, merchant or prince. All might well take away different ideas of why it entertained them but the story that appeals to a wide audience will survive far longer than the lazy scribble masquerading as prose.

irvmull 🚫

@PotomacBob

Seems to me that if you refer to someone that readers would likely know, they'd not only have an idea of the physical appearance, but of the public persona. Which might be in conflict with the story line.

For example, I have an older relative who looks very much like HRH Queen Elizabeth II. Probably not useful to point out the resemblance, if she runs a bar and grill in west Texas. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I read a story that described a character as physically similar to a well known celebrity, no, I wouldn't put the celebrity's public persona on that character.

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@Dominions Son

So you say, but I am willing to bet that subconsciously, you can't avoid doing it.

If you can, you will probably enjoy my remake of "It's a Wonderful Life" - starring Al Capone instead of James Stewart.

Replies: Dominions Son Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

If you can, you will probably enjoy my remake of "It's a Wonderful Life" - starring Al Capone instead of James Stewart.

It would almost have to be an improvement.

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

If the character acts differently, that should shine through.

If the author conflates it, that's a different issue.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@irvmull

who looks very much like HRH Queen Elizabeth II.

She looks really, really old now. Probably not a complimentary comparison.

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@awnlee jawking

HRH Queen Elizabeth II

Born: 21 April 1926

irvmull 🚫

@PotomacBob

You are absolutely, 100% right.

Pete Fox 🚫

@PotomacBob

The comments on this topic have been helpful.

when I do use a known actress I am most always talking about body or face. Not personality. Because in the end they are an actor who takes on many persona. Eva Greene is a good example. She has been Vesper in Casino Royal, A warrior Queen, and shared friend in the Dreamers. So if you write Eva Greene in a story say 'her figure/face reminds me of Eva Greene'. If need be you can site a movie or painting or whatever. After all we dont know what the real Eva Greene is really like, but we do know her body.

I think the point is being more concise. I do see the occasional use as being a distraction.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Pete Fox

The one time I've used this kind of device I didn't go for looks just like celebrity X I used body shape similar to X.

Matt had been expecting her to be very skinny, but her general body shape was similar to Beyonce, though her complexion looked to be a shade or two darker than the singer.

Link not in the original.

Replies: Pete Fox

Pete Fox 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Agree. Great way to use reference. Even if I need to go look up Beyonce booty :)

It would be great if could do Hyperlinks

Replies: Dominions Son LupusDei

Dominions Son 🚫

@Pete Fox

Agree. Great way to use reference. Even if I need to go look up Beyonce booty :)

I added the link for this thread. It's not in the story I copied it from.

LupusDei 🚫

@Pete Fox

In any modern browser it's already extremely easy to search for a selection. In e-reader or other media that doesn't have such, a hyperlink wouldn't likely work either.

Replies: Ron Jon

Ron Jon 🚫
Updated:

@LupusDei

In any modern browser it's already extremely easy to search for a selection. In e-reader or other media that doesn't have such, a hyperlink wouldn't likely work either.

True and that is essentially what I do and I am sure others. BUT this is just an argumentative BUT what if the author has a particular specific image?

Not part of the thread but I have wondered about the ability in future epub programing being able to run a curser over things like weapons, locations, people and have an image appear. Basically a futuristic epub. But that is not this topic.

Pete

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Ron Jon

Not part of the thread but I have wondered about the ability in future epub programing being able to run a curser over things like weapons, locations, people and have an image appear. Basically a futuristic epub. But that is not this topic.

I know it's off-topic but as far as I know that is currently not possible in epubs. You can cheat however. What does work in epubs are hyperlinks. Not only links to external sites but also links to jump inside your epub. So you create a link that jumps to your appendix/image/whatever-page and on that page you create a link to jump back to the original link. Cumbersome yes, but it does work.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@PotomacBob

Does access to a photograph of a real person help the reader "see" the character?

Oddly enough, when I see a photograph of a real person (eg in a social media profile picture), I imagine what they smell like.

AJ

Freyrs_stories 🚫

@PotomacBob

I've mentioned it before, but I use AI generated pictures, going through a number of iterations till the Image matches, as close to my imagination the character.

AIs include Dall.e2, stable diffusion and midjourney. each has pros and cons but each with some experimentation can generate very realistic and unique renditions of whatever it is you're trying to represent. from vanilla to steam and cyber punk to traditional fantasy. you just 'guide' the revisions towards your goal(s). has anyone else 'experimented'?

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Freyrs_stories

I've mentioned it before, but I use AI generated pictures, going through a number of iterations till the Image matches, as close to my imagination the character.

Sounds like the perfect way to get a visual representation of exactly the person you want it to be without having the problem of having to use a real photo. An AI generated picture has no (bad) history or preconceived notions connected to it.

Replies: Freyrs_stories

Freyrs_stories 🚫

@Keet

they are very flexible, you can instruct the AI to use a celebrity as a basis too, if you really need to go that route. I don't do that. I use a series of prompts to 'shape' the picture and it's contents.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Photographs of Characters

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