Serious question. At the point now where I'm finishing up "Off The Deep End", and outlining another book-length story. The outlined one doesn't contain any underage stuff, but I'd hate to have to rewrite OTDE to make them start as high school seniors, even though there's no proper sex before the latter part of the story when the characters are well and truly old enough.
But then, how explicit can you get? I can't find any guidelines other than "If we take your book down it's not allowed."
The dividing line appears to be, nothing sexual is allowed of someone under 14 years old. For 14 and older, anything is allowed.
So next question then: do you list them under romance? I know GYounger lists under "coming of age", yet the 'Stupid Boy' books are chock full of U18 action.
For 14 and older, anything is allowed.
So for beastiality stories the animals have to be at least 14 years old.
But then, how explicit can you get?
Your subject implies what are the rules on Amazon's KDP, but REP's answer was for SOL. Which are you asking about?
Asking specifically about KDP. I know the SOL rules.
I'd be interested to know too. Several people have complained that the actual content doesn't seem to matter - as soon as one person objects, Amazon take the story down and there doesn't seem to be any readily available form of appeal, not that Amazon will tell you what you're appealing against.
AJ
I'd be interested to know too. Several people have complained that the actual content doesn't seem to matter - as soon as one person objects, Amazon take the story down and there doesn't seem to be any readily available form of appeal, not that Amazon will tell you what you're appealing against.
That's basically my understanding.
Although there is a caveat there about anything that suggests "under 18" is likely to be purged with extreme prejudice unless you have a major publisher behind you. If it's over 18, you seem to have more leeway, at least so long as you don't "surprise" people with graphic content.
But that could go back to "as long as nobody complains."
Asking specifically about KDP. I know the SOL rules.
Nothing illegal is allowed. That's underage sex (under 18 years old), incest, bestiality, and so on. Can you get away with it? If no one complains, Amazon doesn't know.
As to your specific question of characters under 18 not having sex until they're 18. That's fine. In fact, in my current novel, I allude to some of the characters having had sex when they were under 18. I don't believe that's a problem.
As to your specific question of characters under 18 not having sex until they're 18. That's fine. In fact, in my current novel, I allude to some of the characters having had sex when they were under 18. I don't believe that's a problem.
Hmmm. Problem is the 'teenage fumbling' parts that aren't 'sex' sex but are more explicit than a 'fade to black' YA. I don't want to risk getting banned from KDP...
I don't want to risk getting banned from KDP...
From what I've seen said on it, the only way to not risk getting banned from KDP would be to not use KDP.
You could be trying to sell math textbooks through KDP and if someone complained that they were racist or some other *ist, you'd be screwed.
I ran afoul of Amazon's "standards" when that group in Europe threatened to boycott Amazon for publishing books about pseudo-incest and listed a ton of book titles that had words like "Daddy" in them. Amazon never published a list of "banned words" but a little detective work revealed that Neither the title nor description can have any familial title in it and be safe. My book "Tumblr Sister" got banned, so I changed it to "Tumblr Step-Sister" and that stayed up for a month before it got banned, too. So far "Tumblr Sibling" has stood the test of time, though sales plummeted. Basically, they don't want the religions right to be able to SEARCH for pseudo incest or other "objectionable" material. They'll still publish it, but only if it's with characters that are over 18. To combat that, I put a blurb in my profile (and on some individual books) that explains the book had to be censored to meet Amazon's standards, and offers to provide a copy of the uncensored book for free, with proof of purchase. That has been very popular. I get a couple of dozen requests for those each week.
18+ rule ignores reality.
Amazon and DT publishers are really good at that.
In the US at least, stories DON'T fall under child pornography laws.
There have been attempts, some successful, to prosecute pedo stories in the US under anti-obscenity laws.
However, the successful cases that I am aware of aren't just underage sex, but depict the violent rape and torture of prepubescent children 8 or younger.
ETA: The big problem is that the law in most countries, the US included ignores reality.
In the US at least, stories DON'T fall under child pornography laws.
Publishers do not take risks with unknown authors. They follow the market and the loudest voices, not the laws, sadly.
~ JBB
Oh well. I was hoping to put the revised, edited version of OTDE up on KDP because of the KU thing, but not if it's at the risk of getting ban hammered.
if you are skipping KDP you may want to use Bookapy and / or Lulu. I've all of my stories available for sale through both of them.
Bookapy no problem. I heard some dodgy things about Lulu though, with regards to delays in payments, etc. What's been your experience?
I heard some dodgy things about Lulu though, with regards to delays in payments, etc. What's been your experience?
I've had no issues with payments from Lulu at all, and I've been using them for 13 years or more.
The only problem I ever had with Lulu about money was very early when I allowed some books to be on-sold by Amazon and Apple via Lulu and had some major issues with Amazon and Apple screwing up sales, refunds, and forcing price changes to suit their preferred prices. After getting pissed off about that I did revisions of those books, pulled them so they got pulled from Amazon et al, then loaded the new versions with new ISBNs with Lulu for sale through Lulu only and all has been well with regards the money. I did have a minor issue with the epubs I made due to the way the check program runs, but that's easily handled with a minor edit after the epub is first created and before it's uploaded to Lulu. BTW - the check program is one Amazon and Apple insist they use and Lulu simply runs it over all of the epubs as that's easier coding for them.
NB: despite having those old version pulled from Amazon they still show on their site and now they still sell the odd copy of one of the epubs but none of the print books.
Ahh, that seems like it might be the source of the issues - Lulu reselling through Amazon. Good advice, thank you.
I was hoping to put the revised, edited version of OTDE up on KDP because of the KU thing,
If you enroll in KDP's Select program (the KU thing), you must be exclusive to Amazon. So you would have to take the story down everywhere else.
Now if you have a different version on Amazon, it's my belief that's acceptable. I happen to have a revised version of a story on SOL on KDP enrolled in their Select program. But I'm not 100% sure that's legit. I think it is, though.
I think that is legit too, but I'm more concerned about someone flagging it because of my 'tasteful yet arousing' descriptions of adolescent dry humping.
'tasteful yet arousing' descriptions of adolescent dry humping.
In my opinion, that is underage sex.
I attempt to keep the "wrong" people away by listing it as erotica and even stating that it's an "erotic thriller" or "erotic novel" on the cover. But I have no underage sex.
In my current novel, the adult woman tells her fiancee that she had sex with another girl when she was young. I allude to that with another character as well. And another character was raised by a prostitute mother and it's alluded to that his mother's prostitute friends "educated" him in matters of sex. But none of those are described. One adult character simply tells another adult character. It does take place in 1882, not that that matters.