Forum: Author Hangout

Are presidents limited to serving no more than two terms?

PotomacBob 🚫

The Constitution says: No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.
S'far as I can tell, the Constitution does NOT limit the number of times an individual can serve as president, only the number of times an individual can be elected.
What if, say, however unlikely it may be, that George W. Bush were to agree to run for VICE president, and Dick Cheney to run for president on the same ticket, with the understanding that, after serving one day, Cheney would agree to resign the presidency. If you don't like those two names - fit in anybody you like, as long as the one running for president has not already served two terms and the one running for Vice President has already served two terms.
Would anything prohibit George W. Bush from serving as president for the next 4 years? I am not asking about the politics of the matter or even the practicality. Just whether it would be constitutional.

Replies: StarFleet Carl Remus2

Michael Loucks 🚫

Nobody can be Vice President who isn't constitutionally eligible to be President.

Replies: PotomacBob Switch Blayde

PotomacBob 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks
11/24/2019, 3:10:40 PM

Nobody can be Vice President who isn't constitutionally eligible to be President.

Are you sure? I may have missed it, but I didn't spot anything in the Constitution saying that. Do you have a citation?

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Nobody can be Vice President who isn't constitutionally eligible to be President.

The Speaker of the House is the 3rd in line to be president. In this scenario, would Bush be eligible to be the Speaker of the House?

If Cheney was president and went on a hunting trip with his VP, well, you know what happens when Cheney has a gun on a hunting trip. The Speaker could end up being president.

Replies: Dominions Son Not_a_ID

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The Speaker of the House is the 3rd in line to be president. In this scenario, would Bush be eligible to be the Speaker of the House?

If a person in a given spot in the presidential succession list is ineligible to be president, they would likely get skipped over. The various cabinet officers in the list don't need to meet the eligibility requirements for the presidency.

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The Speaker of the House is the 3rd in line to be president. In this scenario, would Bush be eligible to be the Speaker of the House?

As there are exactly zero requirements for selection of the Speaker of the House other than they have majority support in the House of Representatives, it is certainly possible for Bush43 or Obama to become Speaker. It just would be historically unprecedented, and likewise extremely unlikely.

Given the term limits amendment, I could see a legal argument for the Speaker having been a prior sitting president, and a succession event happening where the Speaker becomes PotUS again. But that would likely end up becoming a court case that would be very interesting to see play out as SCotUS would need to fast track it to resolve the issue within 2 years. ;)

Given the closest we've come to such a scenario play out was under Nixon over the course of 45 Presidencies, it is unlikely that we'll see such an event take place outside an act of war, or very "lucky" act of terrorism.

In Nixon's case, they replaced the VP with Ford through Congressional processes prior to Nixon stepping down, so the (Democrat) Speaker didn't assume to Presidency at the time.

It is possible in the unlikely even that a term limited PotUS does become Speaker in the future(hasn't happened to date; in fact, I think John Quincy Adams is the only former PotUS to serve in the House after serving as PotUS), they'd likely allow him to assume office as "Acting PotUS," appoint a new VP, and then before the two years are up, resign and possibly resume congressional duties.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

The 12th Amendment requires the VP to be eligible to be president, as Michael said. The term limitation is the 22nd amendment.

While the 20th Amendment is said to supersede the 12th, the wording of the 2oth doesn't exactly say that, but it does give the Congress the power to declare the elected vice-president as not qualified to the position. It would be an interest US Supreme Court case, but I think the wording of the qualification standards for the VP in the 12th can be successfully argued as still applying due to the 20th not directly addressing that aspect.

In short your scenario wouldn't happen as the proposed VP wouldn't be qualified to stand.

Replies: PotomacBob

PotomacBob 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater, The 12th Amendment requires the VP to be eligible to be president, as Michael said. The term limitation is the 22nd amendment.

Found what you referred to as the last sentence to the 12th amendment - "But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

The way I read it (and my free opinion is worth what you paid for it) the 12th and 20th are not in conflict over VP eligibility, so I'm guessing the scenario I outlined would not be constitutional, as you and Michael Loucks stated.
However, the scenario Switch Blayde suggested (Bush as speaker) would not violate, s'far as I can tell, either the 12th or 13th Amendment, but would require both the presidency and the vice presidency to be vacant before the Speaker could become president.
Doesn't the Secret Service insist that the President and Vice President avoid traveling together or appearing in the same place at the same time just to make that eventuality less likely?

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

Doesn't the Secret Service insist that the President and Vice President avoid traveling together or appearing in the same place at the same time just to make that eventuality less likely?

I believe so. As to being the speaker, I suspect a person not able to be President due to having served 2 terms can still be a member of the house, but they would be excluded from the Presidential line of succession, so Bush as Speaker would be skipped over if the Pres and VP both died.

BlacKnight 🚫

You can be President up to two and half terms without any particular shenanigans... get elected as VP, serve out less than half of a late President's term, and then get elected for two terms of your own.

It's technically possible to serve an unlimited number of terms, as long as you're never actually elected President. The term limit clause doesn't kick in until you've been "elected to the office of President" at least once, so as long as you keep getting there by being elected VP (or further down the chain) and promoted to the Presidency through the succession rules, and never actually get elected to the Presidency, you can keep doing it forever.

People are going to start getting suspicious after the second or third time you step into a dead President's shoes, though...

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@BlacKnight

People are going to start getting suspicious after the second or third time you step into a dead President's shoes, though...

You think?

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

You think?

Why kill them? Just get them to resign after their 731st day in office. There is no constitutional restriction on reasons they can resign after all.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@PotomacBob

S'far as I can tell, the Constitution does NOT limit the number of times an individual can serve as president, only the number of times an individual can be elected.

Two full terms, up to ten years minus one day.

And what you're proposing could NOT happen under the Constitution. George gets elected to President twice, then wants to run as Dick's Vice President. Having served two terms, George is actually INELIGIBLE to be Vice President, because if Dick bit the dust or resigned on day one, he would NOT be able to serve as President.

Let's say George was President, Ronnie was his Vice President. If George resigns or dies on January 19th of the second year of his term, Ronnie can only by re-elected ONCE, because of the 10 year term limit, and a second re-election would violate that. If George resigned or died on January 21st, Ronnie could be re-elected twice.

That's also why neither (real world) George W or Barack H can be vice-president. The Vice-President has to be able to take over as President from Day Two, should the need arise.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Look again at this scenario:
John Doe runs as VP (no prior term as POTUS).
While serving as VP, the presidency becomes vacant, so he serves the remaining time as president, but does not run for president for the next term. John Doe runs again for VP and gets elected.
Now the new president resigns after some time and John Doe becomes president again.
As long as it's always less than half a term, he can again and again run as VP, take over presidency without violating the two terms restriction and finally get elected for two terms as president.

HM.

Replies: Ernest Bywater StarFleet Carl

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@helmut_meukel

HM,

The scenario you mention would require a Supreme Court ruling to decide if it's valid or not as it will resolve around the way they interpret the wording of the 2nd half of the first sentence of the 22nd Amendment.

... no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. ...

It's not clear if they mean more than two years of each single term or more than two years accumulative. It could be argued both ways, and with the way some people in the US Congress have been redefining meanings of words in the past decade, it's all up for discussion.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Ernest,

but even if it's accumulative it still would allow John Doe to get elected for one term after he had held the office of President multible times but never was elected to it.
e.g. 12 years accumulated time during four terms + 4 years as elected president.

The guys who wrote the 22nd Amendment hadn't enough imagination.

HM.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@helmut_meukel

The biggest issue with your proposal is reality. If you're the VEEP and it's time to run for the next Presidential election - you're the incumbent candidate. If you're too weak to RUN for President, you should never have been VEEP in the first place, because you were handed that job and are then expected to DO that job.

Keep in mind that the President and VEEP run TOGETHER - you don't get to separately campaign to become the VEEP.

That and it's pretty much considered 10 years total, even with the weird way this is worded: two years of a term to which some other person was elected President

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

That and it's pretty much considered 10 years total, even with the weird way this is worded: two years of a term to which some other person was elected President

Not exactly. It depends on when the VP took over. If it's before the midpoint of the term of the president he took over for, that term counts against the VP's presidential term limit.

So for example if a VP takes over on the first day of the second year of his predecessor's term, he maxes out at 7 years. One day before the end of the president's second year and that VP maxes out at just 6 years.

Wheezer 🚫

This is all something of a moot discussion. Didn't y'all on the right side of the aisle elect a POTUS-for-life back in 2016?

Replies: Ernest Bywater joyR Dominions Son

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Wheezer

Didn't y'all on the right side of the aisle elect a POTUS-for-life back in 2016?

Nope, I heard she missed out.

joyR 🚫

@Wheezer

This is all something of a moot discussion. Didn't y'all on the right side of the aisle elect a POTUS-for-life back in 2016?

To date there have been four US Presidents for life;

Abraham Lincoln
James A. Garfield
William McKinley
John F. Kennedy

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@joyR

To date there have been four US Presidents for life;

Abraham Lincoln

James A. Garfield

William McKinley

John F. Kennedy

You forgot FDR and William Henry Harrison

In the US, Presidents for life have a rather short life expectancy.

FDR managed to get into a 3rd term before he died in office, but otherwise, yeah. Most died in their first term, with one other dying early in his 2nd term.

Replies: JimWar

JimWar 🚫

@Not_a_ID

FDR managed to get into a 3rd term before he died in office

Actually FDR was into his 4th term before he died in office. 1932,1936,1940,1944 and he died in office in 1945.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@JimWar

Which is why its good to check that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. With access to modern plastic surgery and 'deep fake' imagery, FDR would still be President.
I note the Spanish govt. Recently dug up the general. Maybe they wanted to check.

Replies: Dominions Son Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Radagast

Recently dug up the general. Maybe they wanted to check.

They were more concerned about him rising from the grave as some sort of undead than about the identity of the body in his grave.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Radagast

With access to modern plastic surgery and 'deep fake' imagery, FDR would still be President.

Polio and it's affects are still incurable, but the disease has been all but completely wiped out. Another president who could barely stand due to the ravages of polio would have been rather suspicious.

Besides, FDR wasn't assassinated or otherwise killed.

He went to great efforts to conceal it from the general public, his heath was already poor when he was elected president the first time, and it declined significantly over his 12 years in office. He died of a stroke.

Even then, it would have been very difficult for the leader of a nation to fake his own death. Today, it would be outright impossible.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Wheezer

Didn't y'all on the right side of the aisle elect a POTUS-for-life back in 2016?

In the US, Presidents for life have a rather short life expectancy.

Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Radagast 🚫

Then there are other factors to consider. Personal prejudice, the urge for power and personal survival are big ones and have always been present in SCOTUS decisions.
Marbury vs Madison saw SCOTUS grant itself a power to review and strike down legislation as unconstitutional.

The Slaughter House case saw the rights guaranteed by the 14th amendment nullified and Jim Crow laws authorized. Then a hundred years of reinterpretation have slowly put those rights back.
Buck vs Bell sanctioned state enforced sterilization. The fix was in, as SCOTUS allowed the plaintiff to be 'represented' by legal counsel that wanted her sterilized and was counsel for the organisation that wanted to sterilize her.
Miller gutted the 2nd amendment. The decision should not have been made as it was moot. Miller had been murdered and his lawyer refused to appear in court.
Faced with a threat of bench stacking, the 1935 court completely reversed itself on the interstate commerce power.
Korematsu v. United States allowed the mass imprisonment of citizens without trial. No one was going to habeus those corpuses.
Roe vs Wade made up a right to abortion that had no historic background, other than the eugenic desire in the ruling class to control undesirable populations.

In recent years Chief Justice Roberts reversed himself at the last minute on the Affordable Care Act and decided a fine was a tax - after irregularities in the adoption of his kids were brought up in those organs of the establishment, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post, along with admonitions to do the right thing on Obamacare.
Justice Scalia wrote the Heller decision that partially restored 2nd amendment rights. He died with a pillow over his face and was buried without autopsy after Hillary's chief of staff paid fifteen million for 'wet work' that night. SCOTUS has declined to uphold that decision since then.
Then there is the Weekend at Ginsburg's shenanigans of the last eleven months, with an 86 year old having a third of her lung cut out, yet she is still 'writing decisions from home'.

It is often said that SCOTUS does not hear cases until they consider the issue 'ripe'. A cynic could say they don't hear cases until they have sniffed the wind to see what blow back there will be. Wearing a nifty black robe and making lawyers bow and scrape is fun, having your private correspondence released by the NSA, not so much. Pillows are to be avoided at all cost.
So if the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USA decides to appoint a Chairman for Life, SCOTUS will find a way to justify it. I'm beginning to believe that Jerry Pournelle's Co-Dominion may still happen. All we need is the Alderson Drive. I'll volunteer for the first ship off this benighted planet.

Replies: Dominions Son Michael Loucks awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Radagast

with an 86 year old having a third of her lung cut out

A third of one of her lungs, she has two like everyone else.

But yes, Ginsberg is putting on a live performance of the Monty Python Dead Parrot skit.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Dominions Son

A third of one of her lungs, she has two like everyone else.

I've been missing a lung lobe for decades. The remaining lobe can expand to fill the empty space, given enough time.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Ginsburg can't hold her head off her chest. Her lungs expanding several times a minute is doubtful, let alone regrowing.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Radagast

Ginsburg can't hold her head off her chest. Her lungs expanding several times a minute is doubtful, let alone regrowing.

They don't regrow. What happens is the two remaining lobes simply can get larger, so that after several years, you have the original lung capacity with 20% fewer lobes than normal.

Of course, I also found out years later that I should NOT have taken SCUBA classes, because apparently that's supposed to be bad for someone who's lost part of a lung.

As for Ruth Buzzy Ginsburg ... they've got her on massive life support simply because they already know what'll happen when she kicks.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Radagast

Roe vs Wade made up a right to abortion that had no historic background, other than the eugenic desire in the ruling class to control undesirable populations.

IMHO because to rule that it was personal liberty which could be enforced against the government would have undermined much of the administrative state at all levels.

A personal liberty interest to be left alone by the government, even limited to medical care, is a FAR too dangerous a thing for a government to allow. Hell you can't even keep your doctor...

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Radagast

Then there is the Weekend at Ginsburg's shenanigans of the last eleven months, with an 86 year old having a third of her lung cut out, yet she is still 'writing decisions from home'.

Allegedly one's critical thinking skills on average decline from the age of 24. I shudder to think of what sort of precedent-creating judgements an 86yo is issuing. And we Brits are no better off - the judgements of our High and Supreme Courts can sometimes appear inexplicably random. If the law is to be fair, it must be obviously fair.

AJ

Radagast 🚫

I was referring to an FDR Mk2.0 being rolled out, ala Kevin Kline in Dave or Teresa Barnwell appearing on the street outside Chelsea's apartment after Hillary collapsed.
Many years ago Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt disappeared while swimming in the ocean. Theory one is he drowned, theory two is he defected to a Chinese submarine.
The Australian's named a swimming pool after him. If they named a Chinese dish after him I would give more credence to the defection story.

Replies: Ernest Bywater Dominions Son

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Radagast

Many years ago Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt disappeared while swimming in the ocean.

And over 80% of the people didn't give a damn if they found him or not. Most didn't realise he'd gone missing until they read the update in the Sunday papers days later.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Naming a swimming pool after a drowned man was probably a hint as to the regard he was held in.

Terry Pratchett had his Counterweight Continent jailing politicians as soon as they are elected 'because it saves time'. A very British author, with a Pythonesque take on Australians. I do wonder how much of his take was based on real life Australian attitudes.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Radagast

Terry Pratchett had his Counterweight Continent jailing politicians as soon as they are elected 'because it saves time'.

In France, they do it the other way around - only people with criminal convictions seem to be eligible for high government office.

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@Radagast

Kevin Kline in Dave or Teresa Barnwell appearing on the street outside Chelsea's apartment after Hillary collapsed.

I rather doubt something like that would be possible to pull off in real life. Fingerprints and all that.

Radagast 🚫

No need to fool all of the people all of the time, they only have to fool most of the people until loyalists have consolidated their grip on all positions of power. Then the people no longer matter.
This is a basic lesson of history.

Radagast 🚫

In most nations having no convictions is an unofficial requirement to hold office. A criminal record is also frowned upon as it indicates a less competent criminal.

Forum: Author Hangout

Are presidents limited to serving no more than two terms?

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