Forum: Author Hangout

Currently we have a page for each pen name.

I'm not sure what that means. rache, god of porn, and others are pen names known on SOL that do not have a page but have the same status as Rachel Ross because they are all her.

Lazeez can cross reference them. The question is how would you display them.

Lazeez can cross reference them.

Yes he could. However, we are trying to avoid additional work for him. There are a number of things that we could ask from Lazeez, but we haven't had time to identify what to ask for. Then we would need to decide if it would be appropriate to ask of him for certain things and what wouldn't be proper to ask for. The first thing Keet, TeNderLoin, and I need to decide is whether we want to add a contributor's additional pen names to the listing. If Lazeez has a listing of alternate pen names that he would share, then we could use it if he would care to share the listing; but we don't want to have him spend a lot of time creating a listing for us.

The question is how would you display them.

That is part of the issue the 3 of us need to discuss.

I strongly suspect the cross listing of pen names will only happen where the authors have public acknowledged them or the author is dead and they're known. Having checked the site I see no pen names cross listed for active or unknown authors. Mind you, I didn't see any cross listings for deceased authors, either.

A bunch of us here are heathens, ya know, so putting an ancient torture device after a deceased heathen's name "don't get it".

The military maintains a list of images to use for funerals for each religion. I believe the images are public (i.e. free of charge, though you would need to credit them). That would be a decent place to start. But even then, rather than assuming that everyone is Christian, by default, a safer bet is to use the more general tombstone, as it wouldn't inadvertently misidentify anyone (unless they were still alive).

Using specific symbols would require that we know the religion of the contributor to be able to set the correct symbol. We can forget about that too.

I agree with that, and you'll note that I never suggested adopting the "RIP" alternative. Rather, simply using a tombstone image is a clearer indication that someone died, without any religious connotations (aside from their not being cremated in an ancient Nordic or Indian tradition).

The key is, there is a big difference between "authors we haven't heard from in a while", and those who have clearly died, and there's got to be a fairly simply way of designating that without tying everyone up in knots. Which is why I suggest checking with the groups who deal with these issues on a regular basis, accepting their standards as the default position.

In short, obviously Christian symbols are a clear no, no, especially given Christianity's history of castigating and humiliating non-Christians. But finding a solution that works in 85% to 90% of cases is fine, as you'll never please 100% of all cases, as some folk are just plain bat-shit crazy!

Lol, how about an icon of daisies, as in pushing up daisies?
lol or a smiley face with x's for eyes. How about a capital D for deceased?

I understand not wanting to insult people. It just seems that you guys are being put through the grinder just to find a way to say somebody croaked that pleases everybody.

The capital D was the only serious suggestion. I feel bad for the guys who are having to spend so much time on an issue like this. I understand death and religion are important issues.

I think their time would be better spent working on the overall project then stressing over this. Another solution would be to make a second column for religion. D for Dead or A for alive in one column. Then a symbol or whatever for any religion or n/a for none and ? for unknown and call it done.

Just my two cents

The capital D was the only serious suggestion.

d. is far more common, often enclosed in brackets when indicating those in a list who are now deceased.

AJ

Another solution would be to make a second column for religion. D for Dead or A for alive in one column. Then a symbol or whatever for any religion or n/a for none and ? for unknown and call it done.

Again, that topic is best dropped entirely. While most family members won't worry too much over whether Grandpa SickFuck wrote porn, but they're likely to argue strenuously that he ever renounced their religious upbringing!

The capital D is the best alternative for a symbol I have heard so far. If we do that we'll probably get someone who argues that the letter should be pink or something ;)

Agreed. How about the following: "D" for deceased, "?" for 'reported to have died, but still undetermined' and 'U' for 'has burrowed deep underground, and no longer wishes to be disturbed, you sordid wankers!'?

Though we may also need a 'W' for "currently in the witness-protection plan', or due to convoluted legal reasons, is no longer allowed access to a computer to acknowledge that he's still active". 'D

Lol, how about an icon of daisies, as in pushing up daisies?

Perfect. That way, if they're definitely dead, you'd show a single daisy, while it they'd had multiple aliases, like Rache, you should display a vast field of daisies! But, if you're unsure of their status, you could show a single bulb, as yet unopened. 'D

It just seems that you guys are being put through the grinder just to find a way to say somebody croaked that pleases everybody.

That was my main point, that you're creating work for yourselves by reinventing the wheel trying to solve what no one else has ever been able to successfully resolve.

In the case of C. S. Lewis, trust me, Christian websites will proudly announce to the world that he was a dedicated Christian, while few others will give a holy fuck. You (the website) don't give a shit what his religious believes were (and have few ways to determine it), all you care is whether s/he's currently alive or not.

The only reason I brought up pen names was because they would still be on SOL without a status on your site so the default would be assumed active. I was thinking about readers who were wondering about a particular author who they hadn't heard from in a while (not knowing that author was actually a pen name of another).

You don't have to link the pen names. I actually think that's a bad idea. All you have to do is list the same status for all the pen names if you know they're the same person.

So there would be an entry for Rachael Ross as deceased and another for rache as deceased (remember, she was adamant about it being a lower case "r").

Read my reply to joyR where I explain a little more.

I did. I was agreeing with you. I was offering a suggestion what to do with the pen names, keeping them separate but giving them a status.

You don't have to link the pen names.

Yes that is an option, but when a visitor clicks on an alternate pen name, what will they see as a Contributor Page.

We are focused on contributors to Lazeez's 3 story websites (WLPC). So only 'Rachael Ross' is listed on SOL as an author. There would be no information on SOL to be used for developing a Contributor Page for her pen names, and we aren't going to search the Internet for story sites with the necessary information. Remember that our website is for WLPC's contributors, not contributors to other story sites.

Therefore, if we don't link her alternate pen names to her current pen name, all we could provide is a blank page.

The only 'safe' way is to treat each pen name as an individual author

To illustrate my point - assume 'TomTom' is an alternate pen name for joyR. If we do not link 'TomTom' to joyR, then what information is publically available for us to add to a Contributor Page.

As an aside, is the intent to include every author who has contributed to a WLPC site, or just those who are 'missed' ??

We plan to add only the contributors that visitors to the website request by sending that request to our info@ email address. Requests via other means will be accepted, but might drop in the crack. As you will note on the website, clicking pen names brings up the contributor's Contributor Page. If there is nothing on SOL for that alternate pen name, there would be nothing to add to that page and it would be "blank". The purpose of the Contributor Page is to provide visitors with "known information" about the contributor. The content is not intended to be an Obituary. If you check the Contributor Page of a few deceased contributors, you would find we general provide: 1) what is known about the contributor's passing and 2) their contributions to the WLPC websites.

The only 'safe' way is to treat each pen name as an individual author, taking care NOT to link pen names unless the author has themselves done so publicly.

That was what I meant.

One idea might be

That is one of the options under consideration. There are 2 primary options for adding pen names: 1) add publically known pen names to the Contributor Page or 2) add a "see ..." to the additional pen names that are added in the listing. Both options have advantages and disadvantages.

However, the first question to be resolved is: Should additional pen names be listed on the website? Of course whichever way that question is answered will present problems.

The best solution to those problems would be for a contributor who makes a decision to become an Inactive Contributors to contact us and make their preferences known. They may not want to be listed and we would respect their wishes. They can also be as co-developer of their Contributor Page, which would ensure it has the content they want associated with their pen name. That offer is stated on the website.

However, the first question to be resolved is: Should additional pen names be listed on the website?

Once more, since the site is only listing deceased authors, I don't see that big of a conflict. Some authors may not want compromising stories they penned under an alternate name showing up in the funeral memorial, but in the majority of cases, readers would want a more comprehensive listing of their work, even if their uninterested in reading it all. If nothing else, it provides a more complete picture of their life's work.

are diametrically opposed positions regarding this issue.

What I said to you in the DM I sent, was:

1. If the contributor has made it known that they do not want their current pen name (i.e., the pen name in SOL's list of Authors) linked to a prior pen name, then we won't link the two pen names. We would most likely not list the prior pen name, but we haven't gotten that far in deciding how to handle the multiple pen name issues.

2. I we know of or are made aware of additional pen names, we will list them and reference the current pen name. Ogre1944 is a test case on the current site, so you can see how we are thinking of handling the issue.

Then:

a. If the inactive contributor is still with us and objects to our linking pen names, we will update the website to resolve the linkage.

b. If the inactive contributor has passed away, we will resolve any issue that the heirs or estate have with the deceased being listed on the website. That may require removing all references to the current and past pen names.

The above is the probable implementation of what Keet, TeNderLoin, and I agreed on in our initial agreement. I don't see any conflict.

We're even waiting for permission to add photo's of Wes Boyd and Mike Cropo although those same photo's are published on their sites.

That's a separate issue, as it's a copyright restriction, rather than a privacy concern. In cases of copyright or trademarks, NO response is considered a definite "no"!

rather than a privacy concern

It is a privacy concern in that someone who knows/knew the contributor could link the pen name to the person using the pen name.

It is a privacy concern in that someone who knows/knew the contributor could link the pen name to the person using the pen name.

Again, that 'privacy' concern is the exclusive domain of the deceased author. While the family members may be embarrassed, at most they'd get a few 'tsk, tsks', or more likely a 'You poor thing' rather than outright condemnation or losing their jobs over it.

I've learned, if you don't want to see what your family members are doing when alone, then don't search for their naked pictures online. Knowing they're there won't unpost them, but will haunt your nightmares for years to come!

I'm glad you agree that situation is likely to occur. I'm saddened that you apparently don't care at all about its effects.

It's not that I don't care, I just think the caution is a bit overblown. 'Outing' someone after they're dead is completely different than doing it while they're alive, working, and the information may cost them their jobs, career advancements or standing within the community. After they've died, any blowback would be restricted to the temporary embarrassment by their families—with little risk to their careers or social standing.

What's more, simply listing the names is highly unlikely to inflict much damage. It may be wise to omit any pseudonym's like "ButtFukR Deflux", but it's doubtful anyone reviewing a simple listing would make any associations unless they're already familiar with those writings. Few people, when reading death notices, are going to research each article written under multiple pseudonyms. However, who would will be loyal fans, searching for anything written by the author that they missed due to cross-postings.

The SOL privacy restrictions exist primarily to protect the author's privacy, not to prevent mild discomfort from their survivors long after they're gone. More sensible restrictions, just as eliminating any obviously embarrassing pseudonyms, but in the end, embarrassment doesn't last very long, while losing a job and being talked about within your chosen industry can last for your entire life.

I still think we should be sensitive to such embarrassment, but the privacy restrictions of the individual don't necessarily extend past the individual's life. Once again, I think everyone's concerns are overblown by focusing on the rare extreme examples. A simple listing of names isn't likely to harm anyone who isn't responsible for the deceased author's actions.

Knowing ahead of time that, after my death, you would feel no compunction about embarrassing my family, would prevent me from posting any stories to SOL.

Alas, no one is suggesting we send out a mass-mailing to family members, or local newspapers. This is an informational site, ONLY accessible through certain sites, and with NO references to anything they may have done during their lives.

It's simply a list of authors who are now deceased, and which public aliases they may have also published under. If someone is SO focused, that they'd visit a know sex-stories site, track down the secondary site, and then cross-reference each ID listed, just to publicly shame family members, then they're the 'SickFuck's, not the author who once used that alias.

P.S.
Wasn't it "FuckSick" instead of "SickFuck"?

Umm ... are you perhaps intending to refer to "FickSuck"?

I Have to agree with Joy R. Think you have a great idea, however, you have carried it a bit far with the Pen names linkage and things like crosses assuming Everyone is Christian, which they are not.
The idea that the three of you can make a decision yet MUST DISCUSS with the team when people object seems ass backward.

Why did you not discuss things first and why did Laz just jump to endorse it. I think you have exceeded this sites purpose. Great idea but you have gone off into the weeds with it. You seem bored or something.

Jim I'm surprised you went along with things?

yet MUST DISCUSS with the team when people object seems ass backward.

As I said earlier, 3 people is a small group. When others view what we have done, they bring a new perspective and their perspective may be different than ours.

As far as I am concerned, it is proper to discuss something different than what one previously decided on and to change your position if you think it needs changing.

the site is only listing deceased authors,

Not true. The website also lists contributors who are retired, on hiatus, have long-term medical problems and may become active again, and those who are inactive for unknown reasons.

In many of the unknown cases, there are indications that the contributor may have died without anyone on SOL learning of their death. Listing them as deceased would be an assumption that we try to avoid.

In many of the unknown cases, there are indications that the contributor may have died without anyone on SOL learning of their death. Listing them as deceased would be an assumption that we try to avoid.

Now that is a bigger concern than embarrassing the deceased children. In that case, I'd restrict releasing the other pseudonyms to ONLY confirmed deaths, just to ensure that mistakes are not made inadvertently. But that's essentially a single flag on the site: "is the author deceased (Y/N)?"

other pseudonyms to ONLY confirmed deaths

In creating the website, the 3 of us established policies regarding privacy. Those policies are intended to protect everyone from the hypocrisy of our societies. We are just as concerned about the embarrassment of a deceased contributor's family as we are about the real life problems that could result from being 'outed'.

The main thing about the policies we put in place is, we are willing to reevaluate the policies and modify them if we deem they need to be changed. We are in the process of doing that now based on this thread's posts. However, coming to a consensus takes time for an issue like this one, and it takes time to determine how the resulting decision is to be implemented.

The 3 of us are a small group, so involving the views of additional people results in views that may not have been considered previously. joyR has a valid point and we are taking steps to evaluate and modify our handling of multiple pen names.

One idea might be in cases like Rachael Ross where it's publicly acknowledged that they used multiple pen names to use the standard format and include a short paragraph along the lines of "In addition to the pen name ... the author has acknowledged the following additional pen names...

That's difficult info to get once everyone has died, but if you're interested in collected such information now, in preparation for when you'll need it in the future, I have one additional pen name (not counting "Crumbly". I only used it to keep the fallout for posting a 'gay sex' story on SOL from affecting my other stories, but even then, it didn't get much pushback, so I've got no problems with sharing it.

One of the 'complaints' often aired is about authors pulling their stories from SOL. An oft suggested reason is that they got married/found god etc.

While a lot of the information might border on privacy issues, we're talking about an informational clearing house, rather than reposting their stories. No one needs to 'out' anyone professionally, but readers should have access to discover whatever happened to their favorite authors. Simply listings old IDs wouldn't hurt anyone, despite whether they were using them at the time of their deaths wouldn't really matter.

Currently we have a page for each pen name. For now we limit it to only the pen names known on SOL. See for example Ogre1944. We don't know all pen names that belong to the same author although in time and with help from the SOL community we can get far. For an author with many pen names we might have to figure out a different way.

To save space and consolidate the duplicate info., I'm simply link all the various IDs to the same page, so anyone looking for one ID would then be directed to the others. It seems a simpler and more elegant approach, and cheaper too (fewer webpages to contend with).

That is one of the options we are considering.

Determining the manner of implementation that or one of the other options must also take into account the privacy issues such as the contributor not wanting one or more of their alternate pen names being linked to their main pen name.

On the website, an inactive contributor is defined as a person who is no longer active in the SOL, Finestories, and Sci-Fi Fiction websites.

Being deceased is just one of the reasons why a contributor would be considered inactive. The Scot announced his retirement. That immediately qualified him as an inactive contributor. cmsix is in a facility were he has little or no contact with the outside world. MysteryWriter announced he was having problems staying focused. Shakes Peer2B posted in his Blog that he planned to take a two-year hiatus from writing

Many authors haven't posted or don't plan on posting for over 2 years. That makes them inactive contributors, but once they return to being active contributors on the websites, they will be removed from the listing of inactive contributors.

On the website, an inactive contributor is defined as a person who is no longer active in the SOL, Finestories, and Sci-Fi Fiction websites.

That's what addressed my concern, as I've likely been 'inactive' for long enough for a few to ask 'whatever happened to him?'.

In my case, since I only created the pseudonym to insulate one set of books/stories from the blowback from writing a story in another more controversial genre, I don't really give a god-damn who knows that I'm the author (as my full name on the cover posted on each of my stories clearly establishes.

There are a LOT more reasons for using pseudonyms than attempting to shelter overly sensitive adult children long after the author has passed on!

Woodmanone just posted a story in the Beyond the veil of sleep series

Odd, I didn't know he was dead. 'D

should probably include

You may be right.

FYI,

We have procedures for processing requests for adding an inactive contributor to the website. It would be best for posters to send their requests to our info@ email address to ensure the request is processed in a timely manner. Requests received from outside that route are more likely to drop in the crack.

As a general rule, we will process requests received via the established route first, and then if time permits we will process requests received via other routes.

If it was opt-in,

The problem with that at this time is many of SOL's members come to the Forum and ask us 'What happened to my favorite author?' or some similar question. For some reason, those favorite authors aren't around to opt-in. Our website provides a central point to answer those 'What happened ...' questions without having to respond to such questions in the Forum every time someone who didn't read the prior thread on the same author asks that question.

Would there be a link from the forum

Not now and I suspect Lazeez would think the link in the Links section is adequate, but I'm not him.

If it was opt-in, I would support it fully, but ONLY if it was opt-in to in any way link pen names and display -any- information about the author not made public by themselves already.

Legally, which is what Lazeez (and hopefully you) are concerned with, there's a clear distinction concerning privacy and liability between living and deceased individuals. Widows and their children are not responsible for the debts accrued by the deceased. Such restrictions do not include release medical issues (as that does compromise the future of their relatives), but that's an exception and not the legal standard.

P.S. As a compromise, how about adding a separate 'author's page' where individuals authors can stipulate their wishes before their deaths (ex: "I don't care whether my pseudonyms are published after I'm dead (y/n)?").

As a compromise, how about adding a separate

That compromise is already addressed, but we are considering changes to the website to make a contributor's options clearer. Check the "Help Improve this Website" section of the Home page.

adding information not made public by the author, that is what I object to

What you are apparently overlooking is accountability. We gather our information from the Public Domain and we did not place the information in the Public Domain. The Public Domain being SOL or another website.

We find information that links the real name of the person using the pen name(s) and links between pen names in the Public Domain. The most probable reasons such information came to be in the Public Domain is:

1. The person using the pen name(s) placed the information in the Public Domain.

2. The person using the pen name(s) revealed the information to one or more of their family or friends, and one or more of those individuals placed the information in the Public Domain.

I will let Keet and TeNderLoin speak for themselves, but in my opinion if information is in the Public Domain because of either of the above reasons, then the person using the pen name(s) has no one to blame but themself. However, I also acknowledge that there are means by which the information may have been placed in the Public Domain without their knowledge and consent.

We are not going to go to every contributor and ask them if we can add their pen name to our listing with additional information. That would not only be too time consuming, but it would also be impossible in many instances.

We will respect their privacy by not including information that we deem to be excessively private, too personal, or embarrassing. We will remove any information from our website that they find objectionable. Once again, the most likely way that information was in the Public Domain is they failed to keep the information private – a secret is only a secret if it is only known by a single person.

seek out and use information not in the public domain

The types of information you are referencing is for our use in determining if a pen name should be listed and when. It is not included in the author's page or made available to others.

So whilst you might ask Lazeez too share a list of author pen names with you,

However, a list of just the pen names showing no relationship to other pen names would not violate author's privacy.

To start with, I would prefer to not bother Lazeez.

I just finished finding and responding to your email, and I did mention in it that I could create such a list from SOL's listing of Authors. Are you aware that the listing of Authors does not include all of the pen names that were used on SOL. I am aware of one that was removed, and there are probably others.

If I were asked about a pen name that had been removed, my probably response to the requestor would be that I am not aware of any such pen name ever being used on the site and that there is no information about that pen name available on the site.

I try to not lie. If I don't ask for a list from Lazeez, my probable response would be the truth based on the facts available to me. Furthermore, if I had a list from Lazeez, knowing an omitted pen name would useless information for I would have no way of learning that persons contribution to SOL.

And your point is …..?

If you don't want to bother Laz and don't have a way to discover old Pens that are not on the system why bother to compile another list when Joy R has linked one already there.

There is little rhyme or reason to list pens just saying they are active!

That was my point.

A list from Lazeez would be of very little use to us, so I don't plan on asking him for one.

We had an idea for how such a list 'might' be of used, but since then realized there would be very little value in obtaining such a list. The additional pen name used by authors are either in SOL's list of authors or they aren't and if they aren't they won't be listed on our website.

Just a thought! If only using the existing Authors list, you placed a D(deceased), a R (Retired), a I (Inactive) and an H (Hiatus or Ill) on that list would not that acomplish what was intended rather than make yet another list/link?

All it would be is for those few, leave the active alone.

Just a thought! If only using the existing Authors list,

That would require Lazeez to do the work, while the new site is done by others without adding to Lazeez's work.

Don't forget that our site is separate from WLPC. We have no say or control over what Lazeez does on his websites. Lazeez has a get deal of say over how we run our website and his primary concern is probably ethics. We are being as ethical as we can be, because it is the proper thing to do; we also don't want Lazeez upset with us for we want to stay on SOL for a variety of reasons.

Don't forget that our site is separate from WLPC.

I know. I was simply pointing out to Lapi that the way you've set it up doesn't increase the workload on Lazeez, which is a good thing.

LOL

Yeah! We already did that with one author who had close to 40 pen names. Thankfully, I only have to generate Contributor Pages for the pen names on SOL. But, it was a bit of work to complete the data collection sheets I use to document where I obtained the information. I still have to generate the Contributor Pages and send them to TeNderLoin for editing. He is going to love that.

Note: CW. Whilst this is in part aimed as a reply to your post, my comments are intended to address concerns, not to harangue you personally.

Your note is noted. 'D

So what do each of you think?

I'm fine with it. My only objection was that the 'supposed' safeguards (at least as expressed by JoyR) seemed excessively strict and wouldn't affect the author's privacy.

As long as we have sensible restrictions, I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to complicate things, I just think you're making it more complicated that it needs to be.

Please DO NOT add any of my Pens to your list. Not sure when I'll die and no cross for me, too many criminals assoc with Religions.

I added 'Lapi' to our tracking sheet with comment to omit your pen name from our site. If you want any of your other pen names omitted, just let me know what they are.

Not sure when I'll die and no cross for me, too many criminals assoc with Religions.

Nowadays, I'm guessing more Christians would demand a gun beside their names, or a MAGA symbol, rather than an outdated cross.

I received confirmation of Goldenmage having passed away, but haven't had time to finish updating his page.

We know, but we are still searching for a credible source to confirm that. We are not going to list a contributor as deceased without it.

In that case, I'd use a qualified tag (ex: 'reported deceased' or 'supposedly still alive'). That way patrons would know that their status is currently uncertain, without making a declarative statement on the facts.

Currently, Goldenmage and his son do not have Blogs on their Author pages. Goldenmage apparently passed in 2008 and his son hasn't been active since 2011.

One of the problems we have with Facebook is we don't know who created the Blue Dragon account. Since you seem to be acquainted with him, point him to our website and suggest he contact me via my SOL email account.

To show a person is deceased there are other symbols that could be used instead of the dagger

You can always use a red heart to represent that they're always in our hearts.

To show a person is deceased there are other symbols that could be used instead of the dagger, for example § ± ǂ.

Sadly, those symbols are still not universally accepted, and are restricted to specific types of computers (i.e. PCs, Macs or 'devices no one ever really cared for').

Unfortunately, the plus or minus symbol would imply that they're 'more or less' dead. :(

I've spectated this thread

You maverick!

AJ

I'm sorry I opened a can of worms here. Just do what you think is right.

Some cans of worms need to be opened, but this is a poor place to do it.

ETA: It really should be done via our website on a one-on-one basis.