Home » Forum » Author Hangout

Forum: Author Hangout

New site with missing contributors information

Keet

In January this year a unique collaboration started between author (REP), editor (TeNderLoin), and reader (Keet). The goal was to create a site that provides information about missing authors, editors, proofreaders, and others who have contributed in any way to SOL, and to pay respect to those who are no longer among us. I think we have succeeded.
Today the site is launched: ReaderInfo.net-Contributor Status
This site replaces and extends the list that was maintained for a short time in the 'Deceased Authors' thread.
Lazeez has added a link to the SOL home page on the bottom left under 'Links' called 'Author Info' so you don't have to search for it here in the forum.
The site respects anonymity and privacy like SOL does. No cookies, no advertisements, no tracking so go and check it out!

Replies:   Switch Blayde  ian181
Switch Blayde

@Keet

Thanks for doing this.

May I suggest you change the cross to RIP? I wouldn't want a cross next to my name.

What happens when someone has multiple pen names? Rachel Ross had many (e.g., rache, god of porn, etc.).

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Switch Blayde

What happens when someone has multiple pen names? Rachel Ross had many (e.g., rache, god of porn, etc.).

Currently we have a page for each pen name. For now we limit it to only the pen names known on SOL. See for example Ogre1944. We don't know all pen names that belong to the same author although in time and with help from the SOL community we can get far. For an author with many pen names we might have to figure out a different way.

This is all new and it has taken a lot of time and effort in a relatively short period. We welcome suggestions such as these. I'm sure we will incorporate a lot of such suggestions if it improves the site.

Switch Blayde

@Keet

Currently we have a page for each pen name.


I'm not sure what that means. rache, god of porn, and others are pen names known on SOL that do not have a page but have the same status as Rachel Ross because they are all her.

Lazeez can cross reference them. The question is how would you display them.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Switch Blayde


Lazeez can cross reference them.


Yes he could. However, we are trying to avoid additional work for him. There are a number of things that we could ask from Lazeez, but we haven't had time to identify what to ask for. Then we would need to decide if it would be appropriate to ask of him for certain things and what wouldn't be proper to ask for. The first thing Keet, TeNderLoin, and I need to decide is whether we want to add a contributor's additional pen names to the listing. If Lazeez has a listing of alternate pen names that he would share, then we could use it if he would care to share the listing; but we don't want to have him spend a lot of time creating a listing for us.

The question is how would you display them.


That is part of the issue the 3 of us need to discuss.

Replies:   joyR
sharkjcw

Woodmanone just posted a story in the Beyond the veil of sleep series

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR
Updated:

@REP


If Lazeez has a listing of alternate pen names that he would share, then we could use it if he would care to share the listing; but we don't want to have him spend a lot of time creating a listing for us.


One of the 'complaints' often aired is about authors pulling their stories from SOL. An oft suggested reason is that they got married/found god etc.

Whilst I trust that Lazeez would consider sharing author information to be a breach of trust, I also think you could inadvertently cause more authors to pull their stories.

rache is not a good example as for various reasons many of her stories written under different pen names were either acknowledged or combined.

Currently there are authors using a number of pen names, for reasons they consider important, any intent to link those pen names is bound to cause some to simply stop posting and pull their stories because they don't want them linked.

Whilst I applaud your intent, I would caution against anything that Lazeez would not consider appropriate on SOL (if he had the time)

Ernest Bywater

@joyR

I strongly suspect the cross listing of pen names will only happen where the authors have public acknowledged them or the author is dead and they're known. Having checked the site I see no pen names cross listed for active or unknown authors. Mind you, I didn't see any cross listings for deceased authors, either.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@joyR

Whilst I trust that Lazeez would consider sharing author information to be a breach of trust, I also think you could inadvertently cause more authors to pull their stories.

We had a long discussion about multiple pen names. As REP stated we are still in the process of deciding how to handle them and one of the main points is to avoid linking pen names where the author doesn't want them to be linked. Another point is that some authors have a long list of pen names and some pen names that were never used on SOL although many will know some of these pen names.
When we started this project the very first point between us collaborators was that whatever we created we had to do it with a clear consciousness and in an ethically and morally acceptable way. I'm not giving examples but we discussed specific pen names that we will never connect on the site because we know the author doesn't want it. We will find a solution to connect pen names for authors like Rachael Ross but we are still trying to find the best way to do that.

Replies:   AmigaClone
Keet

@Ernest Bywater

I strongly suspect the cross listing of pen names will only happen where the authors have public acknowledged them or the author is dead and they're known. Having checked the site I see no pen names cross listed for active or unknown authors. Mind you, I didn't see any cross listings for deceased authors, either.

Correct. See my response to joyR.

Replies:   Safe_Bet
Safe_Bet

@Keet

May I suggest you change the cross to RIP? I wouldn't want a cross next to my name.


I think Switch Blayde's point is (and if not mine certain would be), putting a cross next to someone's name without knowing they are Christian is kind of offensive. A bunch of us here are heathens, ya know, so putting an ancient torture device after a deceased heathen's name "don't get it".

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
AmigaClone

@Keet

REP stated we are still in the process of deciding how to handle them and one of the main points is to avoid linking pen names where the author doesn't want them to be linked.


One idea might be in cases like Rachael Ross where it's publicly acknowledged that they used multiple pen names to use the standard format and include a short paragraph along the lines of "In addition to the pen name ... the author has acknowledged the following additional pen names...

Replies:   Keet  REP  Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Safe_Bet


I think Switch Blayde's point is (and if not mine certain would be), putting a cross next to someone's name without knowing they are Christian is kind of offensive. A bunch of us here are heathens, ya know, so putting an ancient torture device after a deceased heathen's name "don't get it".

A very good argument we certainly will discuss in the team. Thank you.

Keet

@AmigaClone

One idea might be in cases like Rachael Ross where it's publicly acknowledged that they used multiple pen names to use the standard format and include a short paragraph along the lines of "In addition to the pen name ... the author has acknowledged the following additional pen names...

It's a possibility but the pen names wouldn't be visible until you open the page for the 'main' pen name. If you don't know the 'main' pen name you will never see the other pen names.
We received an idea to list all pen names in the selection list and refer to the page of the 'main' pen name. We had that a short period of time before we decided on separate pages for each name. We are going to discuss this in the team and decide if we should go back to that system. The advantage will be that every pen name can be found in the initial list.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Keet

The only reason I brought up pen names was because they would still be on SOL without a status on your site so the default would be assumed active. I was thinking about readers who were wondering about a particular author who they hadn't heard from in a while (not knowing that author was actually a pen name of another).

You don't have to link the pen names. I actually think that's a bad idea. All you have to do is list the same status for all the pen names if you know they're the same person.

So there would be an entry for Rachael Ross as deceased and another for rache as deceased (remember, she was adamant about it being a lower case "r").

Replies:   Keet  REP
Keet

@Switch Blayde

You don't have to link the pen names. I actually think that's a bad idea. All you have to do is list the same status for all the pen names if you know they're the same person.

We are very careful with linking pen names. When in doubt we don't. Read my reply to joyR where I explain a little more.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Keet

Read my reply to joyR where I explain a little more.


I did. I was agreeing with you. I was offering a suggestion what to do with the pen names, keeping them separate but giving them a status.

REP

@AmigaClone

One idea might be


That is one of the options under consideration. There are 2 primary options for adding pen names: 1) add publically known pen names to the Contributor Page or 2) add a "see ..." to the additional pen names that are added in the listing. Both options have advantages and disadvantages.

However, the first question to be resolved is: Should additional pen names be listed on the website? Of course whichever way that question is answered will present problems.

The best solution to those problems would be for a contributor who makes a decision to become an Inactive Contributors to contact us and make their preferences known. They may not want to be listed and we would respect their wishes. They can also be as co-developer of their Contributor Page, which would ensure it has the content they want associated with their pen name. That offer is stated on the website.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@Switch Blayde

You don't have to link the pen names.


Yes that is an option, but when a visitor clicks on an alternate pen name, what will they see as a Contributor Page.

We are focused on contributors to Lazeez's 3 story websites (WLPC). So only 'Rachael Ross' is listed on SOL as an author. There would be no information on SOL to be used for developing a Contributor Page for her pen names, and we aren't going to search the Internet for story sites with the necessary information. Remember that our website is for WLPC's contributors, not contributors to other story sites.

Therefore, if we don't link her alternate pen names to her current pen name, all we could provide is a blank page.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@REP

Therefore, if we don't link her alternate pen names to her current pen name, all we could provide is a blank page.


The only 'safe' way is to treat each pen name as an individual author, taking care NOT to link pen names unless the author has themselves done so publicly.

It follows that care must be taken if any information is included other than a simple 'status' (retired) (deceased) etc. If for instance you included details, for example; "passed away at Sunset Nursing Home, Texas, date" and that is added to each pen name...

As an aside, is the intent to include every author who has contributed to a WLPC site, or just those who are 'missed' ?? I ask because of your mention of a 'blank page', which infers you intend to include some kind of obituary..??

Replies:   REP  Switch Blayde
REP

@joyR

The only 'safe' way is to treat each pen name as an individual author

To illustrate my point - assume 'TomTom' is an alternate pen name for joyR. If we do not link 'TomTom' to joyR, then what information is publically available for us to add to a Contributor Page.

As an aside, is the intent to include every author who has contributed to a WLPC site, or just those who are 'missed' ??


We plan to add only the contributors that visitors to the website request by sending that request to our info@ email address. Requests via other means will be accepted, but might drop in the crack. As you will note on the website, clicking pen names brings up the contributor's Contributor Page. If there is nothing on SOL for that alternate pen name, there would be nothing to add to that page and it would be "blank". The purpose of the Contributor Page is to provide visitors with "known information" about the contributor. The content is not intended to be an Obituary. If you check the Contributor Page of a few deceased contributors, you would find we general provide: 1) what is known about the contributor's passing and 2) their contributions to the WLPC websites.

Switch Blayde

@joyR

The only 'safe' way is to treat each pen name as an individual author, taking care NOT to link pen names unless the author has themselves done so publicly.


That was what I meant.

richardshagrin

Your list of contributors no longer with us should probably include Benjamin Franklin, who has the same two stories on both SOL and Fine Stories.

Replies:   Keet  REP
Keet

@richardshagrin

Your list of contributors no longer with us should probably include Benjamin Franklin, who has the same two stories on both SOL and Fine Stories.

Do you have a credible source for that? If so we can add him to the list.

REP

@richardshagrin

should probably include


You may be right.

FYI,

We have procedures for processing requests for adding an inactive contributor to the website. It would be best for posters to send their requests to our info@ email address to ensure the request is processed in a timely manner. Requests received from outside that route are more likely to drop in the crack.

As a general rule, we will process requests received via the established route first, and then if time permits we will process requests received via other routes.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Currently we have a page for each pen name. For now we limit it to only the pen names known on SOL. See for example Ogre1944. We don't know all pen names that belong to the same author although in time and with help from the SOL community we can get far. For an author with many pen names we might have to figure out a different way.

To save space and consolidate the duplicate info., I'm simply link all the various IDs to the same page, so anyone looking for one ID would then be directed to the others. It seems a simpler and more elegant approach, and cheaper too (fewer webpages to contend with).

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@sharkjcw

Woodmanone just posted a story in the Beyond the veil of sleep series

Odd, I didn't know he was dead. 'D

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

One of the 'complaints' often aired is about authors pulling their stories from SOL. An oft suggested reason is that they got married/found god etc.

While a lot of the information might border on privacy issues, we're talking about an informational clearing house, rather than reposting their stories. No one needs to 'out' anyone professionally, but readers should have access to discover whatever happened to their favorite authors. Simply listings old IDs wouldn't hurt anyone, despite whether they were using them at the time of their deaths wouldn't really matter.

Replies:   joyR
Crumbly Writer

@Safe_Bet

A bunch of us here are heathens, ya know, so putting an ancient torture device after a deceased heathen's name "don't get it".

The military maintains a list of images to use for funerals for each religion. I believe the images are public (i.e. free of charge, though you would need to credit them). That would be a decent place to start. But even then, rather than assuming that everyone is Christian, by default, a safer bet is to use the more general tombstone, as it wouldn't inadvertently misidentify anyone (unless they were still alive).

Replies:   Keet
Crumbly Writer

@AmigaClone

One idea might be in cases like Rachael Ross where it's publicly acknowledged that they used multiple pen names to use the standard format and include a short paragraph along the lines of "In addition to the pen name ... the author has acknowledged the following additional pen names...

That's difficult info to get once everyone has died, but if you're interested in collected such information now, in preparation for when you'll need it in the future, I have one additional pen name (not counting "Crumbly". I only used it to keep the fallout for posting a 'gay sex' story on SOL from affecting my other stories, but even then, it didn't get much pushback, so I've got no problems with sharing it.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

However, the first question to be resolved is: Should additional pen names be listed on the website?

Once more, since the site is only listing deceased authors, I don't see that big of a conflict. Some authors may not want compromising stories they penned under an alternate name showing up in the funeral memorial, but in the majority of cases, readers would want a more comprehensive listing of their work, even if their uninterested in reading it all. If nothing else, it provides a more complete picture of their life's work.

Replies:   joyR  REP
joyR
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Simply listings old IDs wouldn't hurt anyone, despite whether they were using them at the time of their deaths wouldn't really matter.


On face value, I'd agree.

But.

The stated intent is to include any author with a story posted on any WLPC site. So for example, a pen name used on Finestories, when linked to an alternate pen name used on SOL, effectively 'outs' the author, who obviously chose to use different pen names for a reason.

So yes, listing old ID's could hurt someone, their memory, their family. Why take the risk? Why disrespect their privacy?

I'm not suggesting the whole idea is bad, just that failure to consider the issues raised and their effects could easily lead to undesired results, authors pulling their stories from SOL or other authors losing trust in SOL, or indeed, in WLPS as a whole.

joyR

@Crumbly Writer

Some authors may not want compromising stories they penned under an alternate name showing up in the funeral memorial,


I'm glad you agree that situation is likely to occur. I'm saddened that you apparently don't care at all about its effects.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer  Lapi
REP

@Crumbly Writer

That is one of the options we are considering.

Determining the manner of implementation that or one of the other options must also take into account the privacy issues such as the contributor not wanting one or more of their alternate pen names being linked to their main pen name.

Replies:   PotomacBob
REP

@Crumbly Writer

the site is only listing deceased authors,


Not true. The website also lists contributors who are retired, on hiatus, have long-term medical problems and may become active again, and those who are inactive for unknown reasons.

In many of the unknown cases, there are indications that the contributor may have died without anyone on SOL learning of their death. Listing them as deceased would be an assumption that we try to avoid.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Crumbly Writer

The military maintains a list of images to use for funerals for each religion. I believe the images are public (i.e. free of charge, though you would need to credit them). That would be a decent place to start. But even then, rather than assuming that everyone is Christian, by default, a safer bet is to use the more general tombstone, as it wouldn't inadvertently misidentify anyone (unless they were still alive).

We found that the problem is way bigger. Switch_Blade suggested to use RIP instead of the dagger. We almost agreed to do that until I did some more research. I found that using RIP is worse than using the current dagger (it's not a cross, the symbol is called dagger). RIP is a Catholic way of expressing 'Rest in peace'. Because it's Catholic Protestants are told to avoid the term. But it gets worse than that: in Hinduism it could be seen as an insult. In short, RIP is not an alternative.
Using specific symbols would require that we know the religion of the contributor to be able to set the correct symbol. We can forget about that too.
So what's left is to remove the symbol entirely and that's exactly what we are in the process of doing. You can see the changes when I am finished with removing all daggers.

Keet

@joyR

I'm glad you agree that situation is likely to occur. I'm saddened that you apparently don't care at all about its effects.

Don't worry, we are very careful when it comes to disclosing information that a contributor might not want to be disclosed. If there is any doubt about the contributor having no problem with linking his pen names we simply won't link them. It's one of the things we agreed on even before the first word for the site was coded.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Keet

Don't worry, we are very careful when it comes to disclosing information that a contributor might not want to be disclosed. If there is any doubt about the contributor having no problem with linking his pen names we simply won't link them. It's one of the things we agreed on even before the first word for the site was coded.


In that case you three need to get your stories straight, because what you've just said, and what was stated in a message to me, are diametrically opposed positions regarding this issue.

Replies:   REP  Keet
REP

@joyR

are diametrically opposed positions regarding this issue.


What I said to you in the DM I sent, was:

1. If the contributor has made it known that they do not want their current pen name (i.e., the pen name in SOL's list of Authors) linked to a prior pen name, then we won't link the two pen names. We would most likely not list the prior pen name, but we haven't gotten that far in deciding how to handle the multiple pen name issues.

2. I we know of or are made aware of additional pen names, we will list them and reference the current pen name. Ogre1944 is a test case on the current site, so you can see how we are thinking of handling the issue.

Then:

a. If the inactive contributor is still with us and objects to our linking pen names, we will update the website to resolve the linkage.

b. If the inactive contributor has passed away, we will resolve any issue that the heirs or estate have with the deceased being listed on the website. That may require removing all references to the current and past pen names.


The above is the probable implementation of what Keet, TeNderLoin, and I agreed on in our initial agreement. I don't see any conflict.

REP

joyR has made it known that she does not want her prior pen names linked to her current pen name. If she doesn't want to be listed on the website, we won't add her current or prior pen names to the website. If she wants her current pen name added to the website without listing her prior pen names, we will do so.

However, joyR does not speak for everyone on the SOL website. She indicated to me that she believes an unknown number of posters in this thread agree with her. If some of you don't want to be listed as an inactive contributor as offered to joyR (i.e., inactive due to retiring, medical problems, hiatus, or other reason), let us know and we will honor your request.

You can respond with a post here to say add or don't add, or you can send us an email to our info@ email address. The info@ email is probably the best way to ensure we document your request to not be added.

So what do each of you think?

PotomacBob

@REP

privacy issues such as the contributor not wanting one or more of their alternate pen names being linked to their main pen name.


If they are deceased, how are you going to ask them what they want?

Replies:   REP
PotomacBob

@REP

you're proposing opt out - to prevent the listing, the dead author has to tell you he/she doesn't want to be listed?

Replies:   joyR
joyR
Updated:

@PotomacBob


you're proposing opt out - to prevent the listing, the dead author has to tell you he/she doesn't want to be listed?


ETA

"Made public" means excluding information shared in a private email or message.

If it was opt-in, I would support it fully, but ONLY if it was opt-in to in any way link pen names and display -any- information about the author not made public by themselves already.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@PotomacBob

On the website, an inactive contributor is defined as a person who is no longer active in the SOL, Finestories, and Sci-Fi Fiction websites.

Being deceased is just one of the reasons why a contributor would be considered inactive. The Scot announced his retirement. That immediately qualified him as an inactive contributor. cmsix is in a facility were he has little or no contact with the outside world. MysteryWriter announced he was having problems staying focused. Shakes Peer2B posted in his Blog that he planned to take a two-year hiatus from writing

Many authors haven't posted or don't plan on posting for over 2 years. That makes them inactive contributors, but once they return to being active contributors on the websites, they will be removed from the listing of inactive contributors.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@joyR

If it was opt-in,


The problem with that at this time is many of SOL's members come to the Forum and ask us 'What happened to my favorite author?' or some similar question. For some reason, those favorite authors aren't around to opt-in. Our website provides a central point to answer those 'What happened ...' questions without having to respond to such questions in the Forum every time someone who didn't read the prior thread on the same author asks that question.

Replies:   PotomacBob
Keet

@joyR

In that case you three need to get your stories straight, because what you've just said, and what was stated in a message to me, are diametrically opposed positions regarding this issue.

I have to backup REP here because we three do agree on everything before we implement something. My words might be interpreted differently because I'm not native English and my sentence construction sometimes is not the best to present a certain answer.
To make it very clear to each and everyone:
We have agreed on a basic set of rules that we follow.
Ethics and morality come first. We will NEVER provide information if anyone can be harmed by it. There is more time invested in that than we invest in the actual creation of the site and it's content.
We provide information that is already available through other sources like the forum, profiles, and author blogs. In some cases information comes from a different source but then it will still be a freely available public source (often an obituary). We're even waiting for permission to add photo's of Wes Boyd and Mike Cropo although those same photo's are published on their sites.
In short, we merge information that is scattered all around SOL and author sites on a single site for the convenience of readers. You can see that as an opt-in by being already publicly available. That the information is already available indicates that we can use it but we offer the possibility to contributors (or family) to change or delete that.

You are fighting against something that is not there.
We can't link your pen names because if you don't want them linked you will never have made that public. If you did disclose your different pen names in the forum it would be rather hypocritical to mention it there and argue against disclosure in another place with the exact same audience. Still, we will respect that if you make it known to us.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

I'm glad you agree that situation is likely to occur. I'm saddened that you apparently don't care at all about its effects.

It's not that I don't care, I just think the caution is a bit overblown. 'Outing' someone after they're dead is completely different than doing it while they're alive, working, and the information may cost them their jobs, career advancements or standing within the community. After they've died, any blowback would be restricted to the temporary embarrassment by their families—with little risk to their careers or social standing.

What's more, simply listing the names is highly unlikely to inflict much damage. It may be wise to omit any pseudonym's like "ButtFukR Deflux", but it's doubtful anyone reviewing a simple listing would make any associations unless they're already familiar with those writings. Few people, when reading death notices, are going to research each article written under multiple pseudonyms. However, who would will be loyal fans, searching for anything written by the author that they missed due to cross-postings.

The SOL privacy restrictions exist primarily to protect the author's privacy, not to prevent mild discomfort from their survivors long after they're gone. More sensible restrictions, just as eliminating any obviously embarrassing pseudonyms, but in the end, embarrassment doesn't last very long, while losing a job and being talked about within your chosen industry can last for your entire life.

I still think we should be sensitive to such embarrassment, but the privacy restrictions of the individual don't necessarily extend past the individual's life. Once again, I think everyone's concerns are overblown by focusing on the rare extreme examples. A simple listing of names isn't likely to harm anyone who isn't responsible for the deceased author's actions.

Replies:   PotomacBob
Crumbly Writer

@REP

In many of the unknown cases, there are indications that the contributor may have died without anyone on SOL learning of their death. Listing them as deceased would be an assumption that we try to avoid.

Now that is a bigger concern than embarrassing the deceased children. In that case, I'd restrict releasing the other pseudonyms to ONLY confirmed deaths, just to ensure that mistakes are not made inadvertently. But that's essentially a single flag on the site: "is the author deceased (Y/N)?"

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Using specific symbols would require that we know the religion of the contributor to be able to set the correct symbol. We can forget about that too.

I agree with that, and you'll note that I never suggested adopting the "RIP" alternative. Rather, simply using a tombstone image is a clearer indication that someone died, without any religious connotations (aside from their not being cremated in an ancient Nordic or Indian tradition).

The key is, there is a big difference between "authors we haven't heard from in a while", and those who have clearly died, and there's got to be a fairly simply way of designating that without tying everyone up in knots. Which is why I suggest checking with the groups who deal with these issues on a regular basis, accepting their standards as the default position.

In short, obviously Christian symbols are a clear no, no, especially given Christianity's history of castigating and humiliating non-Christians. But finding a solution that works in 85% to 90% of cases is fine, as you'll never please 100% of all cases, as some folk are just plain bat-shit crazy!

Crumbly Writer

@REP

So what do each of you think?

I'm fine with it. My only objection was that the 'supposed' safeguards (at least as expressed by JoyR) seemed excessively strict and wouldn't affect the author's privacy.

As long as we have sensible restrictions, I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to complicate things, I just think you're making it more complicated that it needs to be.

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

If it was opt-in, I would support it fully, but ONLY if it was opt-in to in any way link pen names and display -any- information about the author not made public by themselves already.

Legally, which is what Lazeez (and hopefully you) are concerned with, there's a clear distinction concerning privacy and liability between living and deceased individuals. Widows and their children are not responsible for the debts accrued by the deceased. Such restrictions do not include release medical issues (as that does compromise the future of their relatives), but that's an exception and not the legal standard.

P.S. As a compromise, how about adding a separate 'author's page' where individuals authors can stipulate their wishes before their deaths (ex: "I don't care whether my pseudonyms are published after I'm dead (y/n)?").

Replies:   REP  joyR
Crumbly Writer

@REP

On the website, an inactive contributor is defined as a person who is no longer active in the SOL, Finestories, and Sci-Fi Fiction websites.

That's what addressed my concern, as I've likely been 'inactive' for long enough for a few to ask 'whatever happened to him?'.

In my case, since I only created the pseudonym to insulate one set of books/stories from the blowback from writing a story in another more controversial genre, I don't really give a god-damn who knows that I'm the author (as my full name on the cover posted on each of my stories clearly establishes.

There are a LOT more reasons for using pseudonyms than attempting to shelter overly sensitive adult children long after the author has passed on!

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

We're even waiting for permission to add photo's of Wes Boyd and Mike Cropo although those same photo's are published on their sites.

That's a separate issue, as it's a copyright restriction, rather than a privacy concern. In cases of copyright or trademarks, NO response is considered a definite "no"!

Replies:   REP
REP

@Crumbly Writer

other pseudonyms to ONLY confirmed deaths


In creating the website, the 3 of us established policies regarding privacy. Those policies are intended to protect everyone from the hypocrisy of our societies. We are just as concerned about the embarrassment of a deceased contributor's family as we are about the real life problems that could result from being 'outed'.

The main thing about the policies we put in place is, we are willing to reevaluate the policies and modify them if we deem they need to be changed. We are in the process of doing that now based on this thread's posts. However, coming to a consensus takes time for an issue like this one, and it takes time to determine how the resulting decision is to be implemented.

The 3 of us are a small group, so involving the views of additional people results in views that may not have been considered previously. joyR has a valid point and we are taking steps to evaluate and modify our handling of multiple pen names.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

As a compromise, how about adding a separate


That compromise is already addressed, but we are considering changes to the website to make a contributor's options clearer. Check the "Help Improve this Website" section of the Home page.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

rather than a privacy concern


It is a privacy concern in that someone who knows/knew the contributor could link the pen name to the person using the pen name.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
ian181

@Keet

On another note,you have Golden Mage down as unknown but I remember reading reading a blog by his son saying he had died.

Replies:   Keet  REP
Keet

@ian181

On another note,you have Golden Mage down as unknown but I remember reading reading a blog by his son saying he had died.

We know, but we are still searching for a credible source to confirm that. We are not going to list a contributor as deceased without it.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Keet

I received confirmation of Goldenmage having passed away, but haven't had time to finish updating his page.

REP

@ian181

Currently, Goldenmage and his son do not have Blogs on their Author pages. Goldenmage apparently passed in 2008 and his son hasn't been active since 2011.

seanski1969
Updated:

You also have Bluedragon as unknown but if you go to his facebook page he has stated he is on a hiatus. JFYI

Replies:   REP
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

Legally, which is what Lazeez (and hopefully you) are concerned with, there's a clear distinction concerning privacy and liability between living and deceased individuals.


Correct. But that isn't my concern.

As I stated;

If it was opt-in, I would support it fully, but ONLY if it was opt-in to in any way link pen names and display -any- information about the author not made public by themselves already.


Suggesting that information would be removed upon request, is not acceptable. Why? Because as we all know, once information is placed on the web, it cannot be completely removed. This is not a case where it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.

The vast majority of authors do not use their real names, does that fact alone not prove that they don't want to be identified? Can you honestly say it is both moral and ethical to post information, link pen names etc without permission of the author? Doing so could cause harm to reputation, family, etc. You simply don't know, so are you comfortable to ignore that and publish regardless.?

A list of names, with known status is a great idea. I have no issue with it. Taking that further, adding information not made public by the author, that is what I object to.

Using the excuse of, 'he's dead' or 'we can't contact him' in order to go ahead is to me, an utter breach of trust.

As for your suggested compromise, unless Lazeez was to create such a question that required an answer in order to log in, most would probably not see it, not bother, etc. How do you then deal with those authors? As with those known to have died, retired etc, do you go ahead regardless, or do you do nothing without permission?

Rep et al are doing something worthwhile, but in doing so they are walking into a minefield. I simply dislike the idea of letting them walk backwards whilst doing so.

Note: CW. Whilst this is in part aimed as a reply to your post, my comments are intended to address concerns, not to harangue you personally.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@seanski1969

One of the problems we have with Facebook is we don't know who created the Blue Dragon account. Since you seem to be acquainted with him, point him to our website and suggest he contact me via my SOL email account.

REP

@joyR

adding information not made public by the author, that is what I object to


What you are apparently overlooking is accountability. We gather our information from the Public Domain and we did not place the information in the Public Domain. The Public Domain being SOL or another website.

We find information that links the real name of the person using the pen name(s) and links between pen names in the Public Domain. The most probable reasons such information came to be in the Public Domain is:

1. The person using the pen name(s) placed the information in the Public Domain.

2. The person using the pen name(s) revealed the information to one or more of their family or friends, and one or more of those individuals placed the information in the Public Domain.

I will let Keet and TeNderLoin speak for themselves, but in my opinion if information is in the Public Domain because of either of the above reasons, then the person using the pen name(s) has no one to blame but themself. However, I also acknowledge that there are means by which the information may have been placed in the Public Domain without their knowledge and consent.

We are not going to go to every contributor and ask them if we can add their pen name to our listing with additional information. That would not only be too time consuming, but it would also be impossible in many instances.

We will respect their privacy by not including information that we deem to be excessively private, too personal, or embarrassing. We will remove any information from our website that they find objectionable. Once again, the most likely way that information was in the Public Domain is they failed to keep the information private – a secret is only a secret if it is only known by a single person.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@REP

I will let Keet and TeNderLoin speak for themselves, but in my opinion if information is in the Public Domain because of either of the above reasons, then the person using the pen name(s) has no one to blame but themself. However, I also acknowledge that there are means by which the information may have been placed in the Public Domain without their knowledge and consent.


Agreed. Absolutely.

Early in this thread you indicated that you intended to seek out and use information not in the public domain.

There are a number of things that we could ask from Lazeez, but we haven't had time to identify what to ask for. Then we would need to decide if it would be appropriate to ask of him for certain things and what wouldn't be proper to ask for. The first thing Keet, TeNderLoin, and I need to decide is whether we want to add a contributor's additional pen names to the listing. If Lazeez has a listing of alternate pen names that he would share, then we could use it if he would care to share the listing; but we don't want to have him spend a lot of time creating a listing for us.


I understand that you three are still formulating a policy, so I will await the outcome with interest.

Replies:   Keet  REP
Keet

@joyR

Early in this thread you indicated that you intended to seek out and use information not in the public domain.

There are a number of things that we could ask from Lazeez, but we haven't had time to identify what to ask for. Then we would need to decide if it would be appropriate to ask of him for certain things and what wouldn't be proper to ask for. The first thing Keet, TeNderLoin, and I need to decide is whether we want to add a contributor's additional pen names to the listing. If Lazeez has a listing of alternate pen names that he would share, then we could use it if he would care to share the listing; but we don't want to have him spend a lot of time creating a listing for us.

I understand that you three are still formulating a policy, so I will await the outcome with interest.


We have agreed on how to approach the multiple pen name 'problem'. If there is no public confirmation from the author we will not link pen names and the page for the pen name will be a very basic default message that can not be linked to another pen name using the text. In case of a deceased author there will be no date because that would refer to another pen name. Only the 'main' pen name will have a date if the contributor is deceased.

If the author disclosed other pen names that are used on SOL we will link these to the 'main' pen name by referring to the contributor page of that pen name. We are in the process of doing exactly that with one of the authors on SOL with many pen names. Most will have no link to the 'main' pen name. The problem is that for some of these pen names 'everyone knows it's ***' but the author didn't disclose that or we didn't find where (yet). If anyone can point us to where an author did confirm other pen names we can change the way the pen name is displayed and link it. In some cases we will not link pen names or list a pen name at all even if the author disclosed the link himself. There are a few cases where an author started a new pen name because he found his writing below par because of illness and he didn't want to 'pollute' his existing pen name. We don't think the author will like it that we link those even though he might have referred to them. It's a case-by-case decision. Confirmation and ethics decide if and how information is displayed.

The site as it is now is very limited and still in it's infancy but we had to start somewhere and be very careful about it. With help from the SOL community and the effort from our side it's value will rise for everyone visiting the site.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Keet

Thank you, all three of you. And good luck..!

REP

@joyR

seek out and use information not in the public domain


The types of information you are referencing is for our use in determining if a pen name should be listed and when. It is not included in the author's page or made available to others.

Replies:   joyR
Darian Wolfe

@Keet

Lol, how about an icon of daisies, as in pushing up daisies?
lol or a smiley face with x's for eyes. How about a capital D for deceased?

I understand not wanting to insult people. It just seems that you guys are being put through the grinder just to find a way to say somebody croaked that pleases everybody.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Darian Wolfe

Lol, how about an icon of daisies, as in pushing up daisies?
lol or a smiley face with x's for eyes. How about a capital D for deceased?

I understand not wanting to insult people. It just seems that you guys are being put through the grinder just to find a way to say somebody croaked that pleases everybody.

I'm usually pretty straight forward and discard petty subjects easily as not worth getting into a discussion about. Death, especially in relation to religion, is a subject we should touch with care and respect.
The capital D is the best alternative for a symbol I have heard so far. If we do that we'll probably get someone who argues that the letter should be pink or something ;)

zebra69347

To show a person is deceased there are other symbols that could be used instead of the dagger, for example § ± ǂ.
I've not looked at the site as yet.

Switch Blayde

@zebra69347

To show a person is deceased there are other symbols that could be used instead of the dagger


You can always use a red heart to represent that they're always in our hearts.

Keet

Thank you for all the serious, funny, and creative suggestions for a deceased symbol. We decided to not use a symbol but to keep the "In Memoriam" indication and in most cases the date. Where there is no date it is because it would possibly make an unwanted reference to another pen name.

Darian Wolfe

@Keet

The capital D was the only serious suggestion. I feel bad for the guys who are having to spend so much time on an issue like this. I understand death and religion are important issues.

I think their time would be better spent working on the overall project then stressing over this. Another solution would be to make a second column for religion. D for Dead or A for alive in one column. Then a symbol or whatever for any religion or n/a for none and ? for unknown and call it done.

Just my two cents

Lapi

@joyR

I Have to agree with Joy R. Think you have a great idea, however, you have carried it a bit far with the Pen names linkage and things like crosses assuming Everyone is Christian, which they are not.
The idea that the three of you can make a decision yet MUST DISCUSS with the team when people object seems ass backward.

Why did you not discuss things first and why did Laz just jump to endorse it. I think you have exceeded this sites purpose. Great idea but you have gone off into the weeds with it. You seem bored or something.

Jim I'm surprised you went along with things?

Replies:   REP
awnlee jawking

@Darian Wolfe

The capital D was the only serious suggestion.


d. is far more common, often enclosed in brackets when indicating those in a list who are now deceased.

AJ

Lapi
Updated:

@REP

Please DO NOT add any of my Pens to your list. Not sure when I'll die and no cross for me, too many criminals assoc with Religions.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
PotomacBob

@REP

Would there be a link from the forum (or SOL) to the site?

Replies:   joyR  REP
joyR

@REP

The types of information you are referencing is for our use in determining if a pen name should be listed and when. It is not included in the author's page or made available to others.


According to the SOL help files;

Can I have more than one pen name on the site?

Yes. Through the 'Account Manager' you can create new pen names. Pen names on the site are handled in a way that no one but you would know if you had more than one name (unless you tell of course).

Readers and other authors have no way of knowing whether two or more pen names are for the same individual.


If that information was to be released to you by Lazeez, then the above would not be true, would it..??

So whilst you might ask Lazeez too share a list of author pen names with you, I sincerely hope he turns you down flat, in order to maintain his promise to respect authors privacy.

Replies:   REP
joyR

@PotomacBob

Would there be a link from the forum (or SOL) to the site?


There already is, main page, left side, under 'Author info'
(Underneath the Clitories link)

PotomacBob

@Crumbly Writer

The SOL privacy restrictions exist primarily to protect the author's privacy, not to prevent mild discomfort from their survivors long after they're gone.


Knowing ahead of time that, after my death, you would feel no compunction about embarrassing my family, would prevent me from posting any stories to SOL.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@Lapi


yet MUST DISCUSS with the team when people object seems ass backward.


As I said earlier, 3 people is a small group. When others view what we have done, they bring a new perspective and their perspective may be different than ours.

As far as I am concerned, it is proper to discuss something different than what one previously decided on and to change your position if you think it needs changing.

REP

@Lapi

I added 'Lapi' to our tracking sheet with comment to omit your pen name from our site. If you want any of your other pen names omitted, just let me know what they are.

REP

@PotomacBob

Would there be a link from the forum


Not now and I suspect Lazeez would think the link in the Links section is adequate, but I'm not him.

REP

@joyR

So whilst you might ask Lazeez too share a list of author pen names with you,


However, a list of just the pen names showing no relationship to other pen names would not violate author's privacy.

Replies:   joyR  Safe_Bet
joyR

@REP

However, a list of just the pen names showing no relationship to other pen names would not violate author's privacy.


Then why bother Lazeez, you can get that information here

Replies:   REP
REP

@joyR

To start with, I would prefer to not bother Lazeez.

I just finished finding and responding to your email, and I did mention in it that I could create such a list from SOL's listing of Authors. Are you aware that the listing of Authors does not include all of the pen names that were used on SOL. I am aware of one that was removed, and there are probably others.

If I were asked about a pen name that had been removed, my probably response to the requestor would be that I am not aware of any such pen name ever being used on the site and that there is no information about that pen name available on the site.

I try to not lie. If I don't ask for a list from Lazeez, my probable response would be the truth based on the facts available to me. Furthermore, if I had a list from Lazeez, knowing an omitted pen name would useless information for I would have no way of learning that persons contribution to SOL.

Replies:   Lapi
Lapi
Updated:

@REP

And your point is …..?

If you don't want to bother Laz and don't have a way to discover old Pens that are not on the system why bother to compile another list when Joy R has linked one already there.

There is little rhyme or reason to list pens just saying they are active!

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@Lapi

That was my point.

A list from Lazeez would be of very little use to us, so I don't plan on asking him for one.

We had an idea for how such a list 'might' be of used, but since then realized there would be very little value in obtaining such a list. The additional pen name used by authors are either in SOL's list of authors or they aren't and if they aren't they won't be listed on our website.

Replies:   Lapi
Lapi
Updated:

@REP

Just a thought! If only using the existing Authors list, you placed a D(deceased), a R (Retired), a I (Inactive) and an H (Hiatus or Ill) on that list would not that acomplish what was intended rather than make yet another list/link?

All it would be is for those few, leave the active alone.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Lapi

Just a thought! If only using the existing Authors list,


That would require Lazeez to do the work, while the new site is done by others without adding to Lazeez's work.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Ernest Bywater

Don't forget that our site is separate from WLPC. We have no say or control over what Lazeez does on his websites. Lazeez has a get deal of say over how we run our website and his primary concern is probably ethics. We are being as ethical as we can be, because it is the proper thing to do; we also don't want Lazeez upset with us for we want to stay on SOL for a variety of reasons.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@REP

Don't forget that our site is separate from WLPC.


I know. I was simply pointing out to Lapi that the way you've set it up doesn't increase the workload on Lazeez, which is a good thing.

Switch Blayde

I'm sorry I opened a can of worms here. Just do what you think is right.

As to the dagger that looked like a cross, for the Christians here, just imagine if it was a Jewish Star.

As to the pen names, I simply thought there would be author names on SOL unaccounted for. Not linking them is the way to go.

I've spectated this thread and it has been nitpicked to death.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  REP
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I've spectated this thread


You maverick!

AJ

REP
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


I'm sorry I opened a can of worms here. Just do what you think is right.


Some cans of worms need to be opened, but this is a poor place to do it.

ETA: It really should be done via our website on a one-on-one basis.

Safe_Bet

@REP

However, a list of just the pen names showing no relationship to other pen names would not violate author's privacy.


LOL I just had the thought that I hope some writers here never die. It's not because I'll miss them; it is because you'd have to scroll though dozens of more pages just to get past all of their pen names.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Safe_Bet

LOL


Yeah! We already did that with one author who had close to 40 pen names. Thankfully, I only have to generate Contributor Pages for the pen names on SOL. But, it was a bit of work to complete the data collection sheets I use to document where I obtained the information. I still have to generate the Contributor Pages and send them to TeNderLoin for editing. He is going to love that.

Keet

We discussed the concerns expressed by a few posters to this thread, and it appears that only 2 posters have a problem with what we are doing. We believe we understand the reason(s) behind their concerns, and we have taken steps to minimize the likelihood of such situations occurring. We give all authors the option to say "don't list my pen name"; Lapi has been the only person to accept that offer.

We welcome any comments, ideas, and critique. What we don't appreciate is someone picking a specific point and trying to twist it around. If there is a concern about how we handle something specific, you are free to contact us and we will give you an honest answer and try to resolve your concern. Some questions and/or suggestions might lead to changes on the site to make it a better service. Some questions will end up on the FAQ page, which is being developed, so the same question doesn't have to be asked again.

* We will not ask Lazeez for any information that is not freely available on the SOL sites.

* We keep the privacy of listed contributors at least at the same level as on SOL. We are probably more restrictive because we do not provide a Forum where visitors can attack each other and disseminate harmful information about each other, which has happened in this Forum.

* We do not disclose information that is not already available on SOL, an author's site, or other publicly available place like Wikipedia. We ignore the social media cesspools unless an author emails us that the information is correct and wants us to use it.

* We do not actively investigate to learn of alternate pen names for an author. We don't know where the idea came from but that is not how it works. We list individual pen names and only if they are made known by the author we can optionally add a reference to another pen name.

* If the owner of a pen name doesn't want to be listed, even though the same information is freely available on SOL, we will remove the pen name when requested. Any author can ask up-front to not be listed and their readers will be left to wonder 'What happened to ...'. On the other hand, an author can provide information to leave a legacy behind and not be forgotten when the time comes.

The site is still in it's infancy. That means that we are still developing parts of it and the list of inactive contributors is still very short. It is not our intention to list every SOL author. It would be impossible to add all the pen names that have shown no activity on SOL for an extended period of time. When we are asked about a pen name we will investigate it and add it to the list if we find that it is an inactive contributor and that contributor didn't ask us to be left off of the list.

We hoped that people would see our initiative as a positive initiative like it is intended to be. We already had a request from an author to add a specific pen name of his. The author didn't retire, but he wants a specific pen name to be known as retired. We are considering that request. We received a biography from an author including a photo. When we add that author's page(s), it will contain some or all of the information the author provided to us. That author will have a page acceptable to him and us, and he will not be forgotten. That is the kind of service we aim to provide.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Keet

With those points clearly laid out. Good luck..!!

Crumbly Writer

@REP

It is a privacy concern in that someone who knows/knew the contributor could link the pen name to the person using the pen name.

Again, that 'privacy' concern is the exclusive domain of the deceased author. While the family members may be embarrassed, at most they'd get a few 'tsk, tsks', or more likely a 'You poor thing' rather than outright condemnation or losing their jobs over it.

I've learned, if you don't want to see what your family members are doing when alone, then don't search for their naked pictures online. Knowing they're there won't unpost them, but will haunt your nightmares for years to come!

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

We know, but we are still searching for a credible source to confirm that. We are not going to list a contributor as deceased without it.

In that case, I'd use a qualified tag (ex: 'reported deceased' or 'supposedly still alive'). That way patrons would know that their status is currently uncertain, without making a declarative statement on the facts.

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Note: CW. Whilst this is in part aimed as a reply to your post, my comments are intended to address concerns, not to harangue you personally.

Your note is noted. 'D

Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

Lol, how about an icon of daisies, as in pushing up daisies?

Perfect. That way, if they're definitely dead, you'd show a single daisy, while it they'd had multiple aliases, like Rache, you should display a vast field of daisies! But, if you're unsure of their status, you could show a single bulb, as yet unopened. 'D

It just seems that you guys are being put through the grinder just to find a way to say somebody croaked that pleases everybody.

That was my main point, that you're creating work for yourselves by reinventing the wheel trying to solve what no one else has ever been able to successfully resolve.

In the case of C. S. Lewis, trust me, Christian websites will proudly announce to the world that he was a dedicated Christian, while few others will give a holy fuck. You (the website) don't give a shit what his religious believes were (and have few ways to determine it), all you care is whether s/he's currently alive or not.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

The capital D is the best alternative for a symbol I have heard so far. If we do that we'll probably get someone who argues that the letter should be pink or something ;)

Agreed. How about the following: "D" for deceased, "?" for 'reported to have died, but still undetermined' and 'U' for 'has burrowed deep underground, and no longer wishes to be disturbed, you sordid wankers!'?

Though we may also need a 'W' for "currently in the witness-protection plan', or due to convoluted legal reasons, is no longer allowed access to a computer to acknowledge that he's still active". 'D

Crumbly Writer

@zebra69347

To show a person is deceased there are other symbols that could be used instead of the dagger, for example § ± ǂ.

Sadly, those symbols are still not universally accepted, and are restricted to specific types of computers (i.e. PCs, Macs or 'devices no one ever really cared for').

Unfortunately, the plus or minus symbol would imply that they're 'more or less' dead. :(

Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

Another solution would be to make a second column for religion. D for Dead or A for alive in one column. Then a symbol or whatever for any religion or n/a for none and ? for unknown and call it done.

Again, that topic is best dropped entirely. While most family members won't worry too much over whether Grandpa SickFuck wrote porn, but they're likely to argue strenuously that he ever renounced their religious upbringing!

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Lapi

Not sure when I'll die and no cross for me, too many criminals assoc with Religions.

Nowadays, I'm guessing more Christians would demand a gun beside their names, or a MAGA symbol, rather than an outdated cross.

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

Knowing ahead of time that, after my death, you would feel no compunction about embarrassing my family, would prevent me from posting any stories to SOL.

Alas, no one is suggesting we send out a mass-mailing to family members, or local newspapers. This is an informational site, ONLY accessible through certain sites, and with NO references to anything they may have done during their lives.

It's simply a list of authors who are now deceased, and which public aliases they may have also published under. If someone is SO focused, that they'd visit a know sex-stories site, track down the secondary site, and then cross-reference each ID listed, just to publicly shame family members, then they're the 'SickFuck's, not the author who once used that alias.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

I hate to break up the fun with finding a serious or funny symbol for deceased but that topic has been closed. Check the site and you will see no symbol. The status "In Memoriam" is sufficient.
But if we had gone for a letter indication I definitely would have wanted to add a P for Prison with a number for the years :D
Mmmm probably a good thing we didn't go for that.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

This is an informational site, ONLY accessible through certain sites, ....

The site is publicly available, not only through the link on the SOL home page. But... you will have a hard time finding it through a search engine.
I made zero effort to optimize the site for a better search engine rating to get higher up the list. Actually, some things are set up in such a way that will almost ensure that we end up at the bottom. Not on purpose, but that's how it worked out. This is one of those rare sites that is targeted to a very specific audience and doesn't really want to be known outside of that audience. The only way we will get higher in a search result list is when SOL itself gets higher, which help to get more hits, which in turn will result in more hits on our site. More hits results in a higher position on the search results list. A nice side effect of our site is that SOL will probably get a little better rating because we have a lot of links to SOL on the site. Referrals to a site give that site (SOL) a little boost.

P.S.
Wasn't it "FuckSick" instead of "SickFuck"?

Replies:   Baltimore Rogers
Baltimore Rogers

@Keet

P.S.
Wasn't it "FuckSick" instead of "SickFuck"?


Umm ... are you perhaps intending to refer to "FickSuck"?

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Baltimore Rogers

Umm ... are you perhaps intending to refer to "FickSuck"?

Yep, Fick Suck. I didn't look it up but I knew it wasn't "SickFuck".

Keet

ReaderInfo.net
Yesterday Clitorides Awards information was added to the contributor pages of those missing contributors that have won one or more awards or were listed as a finalist.

Back to Top