Forum: Author Hangout

Calling all shootists ...

Paige Hawthorne 🚫

Need help with a gun / ammo quandary.

In a minor subplot, I've tap, tap, tapped myself into a digital corner. ISO a reasonably believable explanation of how someone could doctor a 5.56 NATO round so it would explode — in the rifle barrel — when fired. But wouldn't end up killing, or even physically harming, the shooter.

I would have preferred a real-life scenario, but am now ready to settle for something, anything, that would keep gun-knowledgable readers from collapsing in paroxysms of laughter at the writer's ignorance.

Toodles,

Paige

Replies: red61544 REP StarFleet Carl

Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

I was told of this actually being done by US Army Special Forces:
They would replace the gunpowder in the cartridge with plastic explosive - the amount would not be large enough to cause a deadly explosion but would certainly do the gun no good.

Replies: Vincent Berg Dominions Son Ernest Bywater

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Tw0Cr0ws

I was told of this actually being done by US Army Special Forces:
They would replace the gunpowder in the cartridge with plastic explosive - the amount would not be large enough to cause a deadly explosion but would certainly do the gun no good.

Quick, get Tw0Cr0ws real name and credit him as a 'contributor' to your story, so you can blame him if anyone complains about his claims! ;D

Dominions Son 🚫

@Tw0Cr0ws

They would replace the gunpowder in the cartridge with plastic explosive - the amount would not be large enough to cause a deadly explosion but would certainly do the gun no good.

Call me skeptical. I'd need to see a source for that.

If it's enough to cause the rifle to breach, it's enough to potentially kill the shooter. If it's not enough to breach the rifle, it's not likely to do much of anything to the rifle.

Either you over pressure the rifle to the point of structural failure before the bullet can exit the barrel, or the bullet goes down range and nothing much happens to the rifle.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Tw0Cr0ws

They would replace the gunpowder in the cartridge with plastic explosive

I doubt this would work with a shouldered round like the 5.56 NATO as if the explosive wasn't large enough to have the breech actual blow apart it would, at best, crack and expand the shell casing which can easily be manually ejected from the rifle using that type of round. However, with a straight case round like a .22 or a 9mm I can see a charge with enough explosive to crack the shell case and expand it into the breech to be jammed in there would disable the gun for the long time it would need for them to pull it apart enough to pry the case out, and that may damage the weapon a bit more.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

I've never heard of anyone trying it, but I have heard some people theorize that if you hollowed out the bullet so it was a very thin shell with a pin hole in the nose and a larger hole in the base and a piece of paper between the propellant and the bullet to hold the propellant in place you could end up with the bullet stuck in the barrel. Some said a standard powder charge would work and some said you'd need a lower charge. However, the idea is there's enough propellant to force the bullet out of the case and into the barrel while the bulk of the force rips through the paper and blows open the top of the bullet to allow the bulk of the pressure to flow through the bullet and thus leave the thin bullet shell stuck in the barrel to block any future rounds.

As I said, it sounds good in theory, but I've not known anyone to test it as it would make the rifle totally useless if it worked.

Replies: pcbondsman Tw0Cr0ws

pcbondsman 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Take your logic one step further - What happens when the next round is fired into a blocked or partially blocked barrel?

Test if you must but use a throwaway gun and a good vise to hold it. You don't want to be near when that second round is fired.

Granted, if the blockage is close enough to the breach it might prevent a new round from chambering thus incapacitating the gun till the blockage can be cleared. That's most easily done with a metal rod just barely smaller than the bore, and a hammer.

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@pcbondsman

What happens when the next round is fired into a blocked or partially blocked barrel?

I would expect the next round to act the same as if the barrel is blocked with the hollowed out bullet process.

Tw0Cr0ws 🚫
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Back in earlier days people would cut the points of full metal jacketed bullets off intending them to become expanding bullets that way, but full metal jackets in those days were open at the base and the softer lead would sometimes be blown out through the hole leaving the remains of the jacket in the barrel as an obstruction which would stop the next bullet.

Usually this would not destroy the rifle but a plugged barrel renders it useless and firing can cause the next primer to perforate and the gasses to blow back through the action.

If you want to see what can happen search .300 Blackout in .223 chamber.

red61544 🚫

@Paige Hawthorne

Paige, that "explosion" is actually blow back caused by gas being trapped in the barrel. Since it can't escape out the end of the barrel, the gas blows the bolt back to the open position. If the rifle is in good shape, no parts would be blown off the weapon. However, if the shooters face is in the wrong position, he may suffer a cut or, more likely, burns to his cheek when this happens. The idea of a modern day rifle exploding in the shooter's hand isn't realistic because of the quality of the steel and the vented muzzle of newer weapons.

imsly1 🚫
Updated:

Actually all you need to to is jam a plug in the muzzle ...ie a stick, bullet, or mud and let it dry, I have blown up a couple of guns, one was a shot gun that got mud in the bore , I was carrying the gun bore down and my buddy was right in front of me in the mud...a glob came Of his shoe .we think went in the barrel...never knew it happened.., Another was a 22 That Fired a dud that did not exit..next shot it ripped the barrel...

REP 🚫

@Paige Hawthorne

I suppose it is hypothetically possible to do the following:

1. Remove the bullet from the casing and drill a hole in the bottom of the bullet.

2. Insert an explosive in the hole with a miniaturized pressure/acceleration-activated device to set off the explosive. The device would have to have a small delay so it doesn't explode in the breach.

3. Put the bullet back into the case.

Exploding anything in a rifle barrel or breach would be a risk to the shooter.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Paige Hawthorne

ISO a reasonably believable explanation of how someone could doctor a 5.56 NATO round so it would explode — in the rifle barrel — when fired. But wouldn't end up killing, or even physically harming, the shooter.

If the shooter is firing an AR type (even a standard Ruger Mini-14) weapon, then ... not going to happen this way. These are gas operated weapons.

Firing sequence is follows. Trigger is pulled, operating the lower receiver. Hammer goes forward, hits the back of the firing pin, which then hits the back of the round, igniting the cap and thus the powder. These weapons fire closed bolt - so the bullet (the actual lead projectile) is shot forward, leaving the casing behind. The gases from the firing of the round travel down the barrel behind the bullet, and some of them go through a little tube just above the barrel itself, towards a matching receiving tube on top of the bolt.

That's what cycles the weapon back, opens the bolt, ejector shoots the casing out, (and at the same time pushing the hammer back down again as well) and as the bolt comes forward again, it strips another round out of the magazine, making it ready to fire.

Or, just watch this little video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sjGzvyQcvg

When you're talking about an explosion in the barrel, that's not what would happen if you plugged the end of the barrel - putting something in there to impede the bullet itself from coming out. Modern AR type weapons have strong enough barrels that they're not going to explode if the bullet stops. But that gas is going to have to go somewhere - which means you're going to see that shoving the bolt back on its own, and escaping that way.

Assume your shooter is standing and is right handed, so he's got his right cheek on the stock and taking aim. A properly (or improperly) held AR just really doesn't have squat for recoil. Oh, you put a couple hundred rounds downrange, you might feel it in your shoulder the next day. But that's about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3qjpZB6ME

So ... bullet stuck in chamber, and presuming it's before the gas tube opening, means the shooter is going to feel a bigger jerk than normal, and suddenly the hot gas is going to shoot out the ejection port, and that's about it. There won't be an explosion, not like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkz_Zuo8g0U

Note that the rifle that split in this last video is NOT going to be firing 5.56 rounds. That's a Remington 700, which is a bolt-action rifle that fires 7.62 or .30 caliber rounds. You COULD get a bolt-action (meaning single shot) rifle to explode by jamming something (NOT your finger) into the barrel.

Shotgun barrels are typically not made of the same steel as rifle barrels, and thus are easier to make go bang by plugging them. They just simply don't have to contain the pressures.

I never saw it, but I heard of a guy firing a live round down the barrel while his blank adapter was still attached. Didn't do much harm, other than get him in a crap load of trouble (and they scrapped the rifle).

As for doctoring the round itself ... not really. The video with the Remington splitting says the guy put the wrong powder in. So it generated TOO much pressure, making the barrel split because it has to wait for the bullet to exit the barrel before the gases escape. You put 'hot' powder into a 5.56 round, it's going to simply shove the bolt back quicker, still sending the bullet downrange.

Remus2 🚫

In a minor subplot, I've tap, tap, tapped myself into a digital corner. ISO a reasonably believable explanation of how someone could doctor a 5.56 NATO round so it would explode — in the rifle barrel — when fired. But wouldn't end up killing, or even physically harming, the shooter.

You've specified the round, but not the firearm. Nearly (if not all) every major military small arms producer makes a weapon for that round.

Some of the usual suspects have been discussed already, but not weapons such as an AK 74 (gas operated piston rotating bolt), H&K 33/53/93 (roller-delayed gas blowback), FN FNC (gas operated long-stroke piston), FN M249 SAW (gas operated open bolt), etc. In my opinion, that makes your first task defining which firearm it is.

For your scenario, the most likely action is the HK version. If the round casing were too soft, it would jam up the micro-grooves in the chamber trashing the weapon short of a depot level refit. The next most likely versions are the FN FNC and AK 74. With a weakened case, the action would likely tear off the case head leaving it unable to cycle and fire. The least likely to harm the shooter is the M249.

All that predicated on not harming the shooter, but leaving the firearm inoperable (at least temporarily).

The M-4 is usually solid, but does have a higher risk of harm to the shooter (as compared to the others mentioned) in your scenario.
The M-4 does have a way to do what you've stated, but the no damage to shooter precludes that option.

In all, I don't think it wise to give the youtube kiddies any ideas here. One of them is likely to try it somewhere. Which is why I won't comment on the M-4 method. I might also suggest a review of this thread by the board moderators and or owners. Some of the things mentioned here could be problematic to some alphabets.

Paige Hawthorne 🚫

Fun to read the recherché vocabulary of an enthusiast's hobby. I understood, maybe, 10% of it. Which — since I'm writing mysteries these days — does not bode, as they say, well.

In any case, I've solved the challenge by eliminating it. Yep, I gave up. The revamped version will appear in Chapter Six of "Winter's Game".

Thanks for taking a shot at it. (That distant echo you hear is my editorial team yodeling the four most delicious words in the English language — "I told you so!")

Ready … aim …

Paige

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Paige Hawthorne

As a suggestion, if you come upon another scenario such as this one; why not farm out a few paragraphs rather than eliminate the challenge? Just a thought.

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