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Random Bitch - Feel Free To Ignore

Darian Wolfe

My older daughter and her husband are associate pastors of a church. She very gently hints that she would like me to go. She said they could get me ear muffs so I could be in the sanctuary during the loud parts(I can't stand loud noises, anymore due to my illness.). I told her I would visit if she wanted me to. She told I didn't have to and dropped it.

----- RANT ALERT-----

Why in the hell would I want to do that? I would do it to please her because I love her and that would be the only reason. She and I have talked and she knows where I stand on the issue. I know she is doing it out of love and concern for my welfare but damn.

A. I do not believe in the literal existence of any god.

B. If I did believe in HIS existence I would hate him. What type of sadistic bastard wouldn't heal their child when it's easily within their power. I don't care if one of my daughters was a crack whore if she was sick I'd heal her if I could. IF He's real, the bastard cast me out. So why would I go through the discomfort of wearing earmuffs to honor his stank ass? I'm not one of his lapdogs.

C. She knows I'm more comfortable honoring the old ways of our people even if I don't believe the Aesir and Vanir are literally real either. If they were they wouldn't make pretenses and at least, Freyja has nice tits.

I love her, but sometimes she wants to make me scream. It's my damn fault too because I'm the one who raised her in the church and taught her theology AND I gave her husband permission to propose to her. So I did this to myself. AAARGH!

---- RANT OVER -----

Thanks for listening.

samuelmichaels

@Darian Wolfe

I know talking about religion is a bad, bad idea, but I will poke the bear:

If you completely ignore the cosmological aspects of religion, the social aspects may have value. There is good evidence that people who go to a house of worship live longer. It's possibly similar to the benfits from participating in other ongoing social activities.

So, maybe she wants you to have the benfit of the social aspects of her church, apart from any actual belief.

StarFleet Carl

@Darian Wolfe

I do not believe in the literal existence of any god.


I do. But more along the Valentine Michael Smith and/or Neale Donald Walsch god. Although I also have no issue with the Aesir and Vanir, either, and not just due to Freyja's boobs.

Part of my is simply due to ... well, experimentation (and actual success) with non-drug induced out of body experiences when I was younger, followed by serious out of body experiences while undergoing major surgery and having heart failure. So yeah, I died on the table.

Which is why I have my own beliefs. I calmly nod my head at others, wish them well, and go about my own life. Which is why, on Sunday morning in Oklahoma, I'm sitting at home on my computer and getting ready to do some yard work instead of being like so many others here and in church. (And later on this afternoon I'm going to the casino to play poker, too.)

Having said that, I do agree that there are social aspects to life that going to church can bring to someone. I'm not one of those people, so I don't care.

Since I know a little more about your situation than many others on here, I fully agree that ranting can actually help you deal and cope with things. I've had two major health issues in my life that could have, and should have, killed me. I'm still ticking. Be contrary. The more you can fight what's happening to you, the better you'll be.

Replies:   REP  Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@samuelmichaels

There is good evidence that people who go to a house of worship live longer.

But what is the cause of that effect? Is it the belief He may help which produces the helpful outcome?

I have never attended any service since I was old enough to have my own opinion. It's been only weddings, funerals, and Christenings of nephews for me.

My internal statistician tells me that reduces my life expectancy. I tell him to drop dead. He assures me that we will. :(

REP
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl


I do.


I do also. However, churches claim to be the authorized go-between between God and the rest of us. Somehow, I sincerely doubt God ever asked the churches to fill that position.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
sunkuwan

I worship one particular being:

- it provides us with light
- it provides us with warmth
- it doesn't need our money
- it doesn't need corrupt apostles
- it doesn't care about other gods
- it doesn't care about your own beliefs
- it created us
- and it will consume us, eventually, in a fiery hell

The Sun

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@StarFleet Carl

Damn! I hate it when I disagree with your conclusion but find everything in your argument reasonable. :-)

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
awnlee jawking

@sunkuwan

The Sun


That was my tabloid du jour. It most certainly needed my money :(

(I'm an agnostic, in the broader sense of "don't know" rather than "unknowable".)

AJ

Darian Wolfe

Oh, I've had mystical and magickal and religious experiences out the wazoo. I wouldn't have spent so much of my life dedicated to the subject if there wasn't something to it. I've had several since becoming ill.

I know there's things and beings and powers that humans don't understand. I also know that the way humans are wired creates perceptions which in turn creates a need for religion.

I believe Jung's theory of Archetypes, as well as the latest research in Neuro Theology, shows this. Unfortunately, a large part of what I knew about the subjects went bye bye. I just remember the cliff notes version.

I also know that every single religion that is practiced was created by man and has evolved over time. Here's a simplified example that I do remember.

American Protestantism came from European Protestantism.

European Protestantism came from A hybridized form of Roman Catholicism which mixed RC with European Paganism.

Roman Catholicism is a schismatic form of Orthodox Christianity.

Orthodox Christianity is a stripped down/heavily Hellenized universalized form of Messianic Judaism.

Judaism is descended from polytheistic religions of that geographical area as God at one point had a wife. (At least that's what I was taught in bible college).

I did my homework. I can't believe in the god of any of the holy books. I'm not going to intentionally stay stupid just so I can believe. I also know there's a lot out there that I don't know and there might be an afterlife. I know that at certain levels of consciousness I danced and sang with Lynx and spoke with the Lady Shepherdess. Life is Mystery. I just know it ain't that. Even in the faith I lean into the Runes are what 1000 years old. In the Myths, Odin got them hanging from Yggdrasil. No, he didn't. It's a metaphor about the cost of wisdom. The Myths are a map.

I've known most of the people at that church for years and at the most, they are casual acquaintances. During the initial phase of my illness, I was basically housebound for four months only 1 of them came to see me and he was a new guy.

These are people I had known 8+ years. I wasn't and I'm not bitter about it, but to quote Paula: "I don't mean to make demands, but the words and the deeds go hand in hand."

You can't expect me to take their claims of friendship seriously after that. I'll chat with them and have supper with them, but friends? nope. To me the new guy is much more a friend and I'll bend over backwards to help him. Unfortunately, he moved away. But no I don't need their company.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Remus2

There is a spiritual plane to existence. However, I do not believe any organized religion has a corner on that.

Different societies have created various organized religions in attempts to explain, and in many cases, capitalize on the spiritual pull many feel but cannot explain. Most of them use fear, and or guilt, to keep their members in line/brainwash them.

Yet there are some truths buried in the dogmatic teachings. The concepts of good and evil for instance. I prefer to view them as positive and negative with a neutral middle ground. Call it good and evil, positive and negative, yin and yang, what have you, the vast majority of people recognize it even if they cannot agree on what to call it. For the OP, you obviously recognize it if you can refer to anything being sadistic (read evil/negative).

In order to recognize anything as negative, you must first have something positive to contrast it against. The rare people who recognize neither are often referred to as sociopaths.

You can go back in written history as far as you want, but you will not find any society of people's who didn't recognize good and evil anywhere. What you will find is that the reaction to that recognition varies in the extreme. Yet, recognize it they did, and will continue to do.

God/gods are generally the focal point. You could call it the collective consciousness of the spirit plane if you will.

The idea that the concious in question cares about an individual is false imo. The only thing that matters to it is balance. Skewed one direction or the other, that balance is lost. With that loss, the contrast is lost. That in turn forces it to collapse on itself which ends in a forced re-balancing.

That's how I see it anyway.

awnlee jawking

@Darian Wolfe

I also know that every single religion that is practiced was created by man and has evolved over time.


I vaguely remember an article in which scientists used circumstantial evidence to postulate a species of animal other than humans had a form of religion. Sorry I can't remember any details.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I vaguely remember an article in which scientists used circumstantial evidence to postulate a species of animal other than humans had a form of religion. Sorry I can't remember any details.

Was it elephants mourning when one of their herd dies, and showing remorse when one of their herd kills a human?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Was it elephants mourning when one of their herd dies, and showing remorse when one of their herd kills a human?


I honestly can't remember, but since they pass my criteria for sentience, elephants must be strong candidates.

AJ

garymrssn

Theism represents absolute power.
Therefore it must be absolutely corrupt.

Wheezer
Updated:

"If God loves us, why does he permit all the evil & suffering in the world?"

"Well God gave us free will. We bring that on ourselves."

"Isn't God Omnipotent and Omnicient?"

"Of course! He knows everything that is, was & will be."

"I call bullshit! We cannot have free will if God knows what we are going to do before we do it."

Either God is the most evil, cruel & heartless bastard in the universe, or he is imaginary. The evidence points toward the latter, IMHO.

Ernest Bywater

Since this seems to have evolved, or devolved, into a discussion on religion I just want to say:

You need to keep in mind three very important facts:

1. A religion is a system of belief,

2. A church is an organized political structure with the aim of promoting its religion in a way to enhance the power of the senior members of the church authority.

3. On aspect of the above two facts is they are often at odds with each other due to the church leaders manipulating the tenets of the religion to increase their power.

Due to the above you should never confuse the religion with how it's presented and pushed by the church leaders.

Ernest Bywater

@Wheezer


"Isn't God Omnipotent and Omnicient?"

"Of course! He knows everything that is, was & will be."


God is supposed to be able to see and know all, that is a major aspect of most religions. However, neither term in the bold says God knows everything in advance, that's just how some church leaders interpret things for their own power.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Don't Moslems believe that everything that happens is the will of Allah?

AJ

Replies:   Wheezer  Ernest Bywater
Wheezer

@awnlee jawking

Don't Moslems believe that everything that happens is the will of Allah?


The Christian equivalent of that is "it's all part of God's Plan." Again, another contradiction with the concept of free will.

awnlee jawking

@Wheezer

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of if a supreme being willed humans to carve massive faces in a cliff, no doubt with significant loss of life, why would said supreme being subsequently require his followers to blow up the cliff?

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
gruntsgt

Here lately I've almost come to the conclusion that IF there is a God, it is more represented by a Roman Janus type being with the typical two faces. One to represent birth and construction and the other destruction, the only constraint being where we fall in the process. Of course I also thought at one time God was a woman and hated my guts, so what do I know.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

Don't Moslems believe that everything that happens is the will of Allah?


see my points 2 and 3 above.

That's what the leaders teach for their own purposes - Christian leaders do the same.

Dominions Son

@Wheezer

The Christian equivalent of that is "it's all part of God's Plan." Again, another contradiction with the concept of free will.


The suggestion that there is any contradiction between "it's all part of God's Plan." and free will assumes on zero basis that free will is not itself part of God's plan.

Dominions Son

@gruntsgt

Of course I also thought at one time God was a woman and hated my guts, so what do I know.


The kind of omnipotent/omniscient god envisioned by most monotheistic religions is a singular unique entity and as such is unlikely to be either male or female.

Darian Wolfe

@Wheezer

Actually, that's a logical fallacy. The fact that I know that you will or will not do something in no way influences your ability to choose to do or not do it. The choice is still yours.

Parents see it all the time with their kids. You tell them if you do x then y will occur. They do x and y occurs. You didn't make them do x they made their own free will choice.

Now, using force to make a person choose the way you want is a different kettle of fish. Using the parent example again. I would calmly tell my kids when they would try to get stubborn "You can do as I ask or I can beat your ass and then you can do as I ask. I really don't care which you choose, but you have to choose now." Normally, they would do what I wanted because they knew I didn't bluff.

To use such tactics on someone who has reached their ethical and moral majority is considered abuse, criminal and signs of a despotic government.

Once when I was spanking one of my children in public a woman tried to interfere. I asked her if she wanted to be next. She left for some reason. I would have spanked her too. Not because she was a woman, but because she was out of place. I was not beating my child. I was disciplining them as is my job as their parent.

Replies:   Wheezer
StarFleet Carl

@REP

However, churches claim to be the authorized go-between between God and the rest of us. Somehow, I sincerely doubt God ever asked the churches to fill that position.


According to the churches, He did.

That's where I ended up having issues, as several movies happened to come out about the same time I was doing some in depth reading of the Bible. That one line, "I'll not let you destroy MY church!" really ended things for me, because at the same time I saw that movie was when I also realized from actually reading scripture that the Catholic Church is the worlds biggest cult - according to scripture.

StarFleet Carl

@Ross at Play

Damn! I hate it when I disagree with your conclusion but find everything in your argument reasonable. :-)


Were you referring to the social aspects of a church as my conclusion?

You really want to see me confuse people, consider that I'm deep in the Bible belt. And I tell people that the closest religion that matches my personal beliefs is Zoroastrianism.

Since I also happen to be a Chivalric Knight of the Holy Order of the Fellow Soldiers of Jacques DeMolay and a Free and Accepted Mason, makes for some fun times. You'll note that the latter two are NOT in actually in conflict with the former.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Wheezer

The Christian equivalent of that is "it's all part of God's Plan." Again, another contradiction with the concept of free will.

That's close, but not quite right.

A common expression where I live (which is over 90% Muslim) is "Inshallah". The literal translation is close to 'If it be Allah's will'. It is an expression of humility, essentially meaning: "I have free will. I should attempt to do what I believe to be Allah's will. But I may not know His will and I will accept if He chooses otherwise."

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of if a supreme being willed humans to carve massive faces in a cliff, no doubt with significant loss of life, why would said supreme being subsequently require his followers to blow up the cliff?

One could ask EXACTLY the same question about the wholesale destruction of works of art during the Protestant Reformation, except that the holy book of Islam is much more explicit than that of Christianity about what constitutes forbidden 'idolatry'.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@StarFleet Carl

Were you referring to the social aspects of a church as my conclusion?

I meant nothing more than, "Oh! Those seem like a sensible and decent attitudes towards life. :-)"

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Good point, but the immediacy has more impact :(

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Good point

Thanks. I very much want to keep out of this "debate". :-)

StarFleet Carl

@Ross at Play

I meant nothing more than, "Oh! Those seem like a sensible and decent attitudes towards life. :-)"


Oh, good. I would hate to think that you and I were actually agreeing on something. :)

Wheezer

@Darian Wolfe

Actually, that's a logical fallacy. The fact that I know that you will or will not do something in no way influences your ability to choose to do or not do it. The choice is still yours.

If some deity knows my choices before I make them, then my choices are not choices because this imaginary deity already knows what my decisions are and will be. There is no possibility of making a surprise choice. I cannot "choose" to be good or evil by this deity's definitions because it already knows what I will do. In your example, using the omniscient powers of a deity, you should go ahead and beat your kid in advance because you already know what his or her choice will always be, even before they are given a choice or face a decision.

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@Wheezer


If some deity knows my choices before I make them, then my choices are not choices because this imaginary deity already knows what my decisions are and will be.


You may make a specific choice. However you may also choose to change your mind and make a different choice. You may go through several choices before you make your final choice.

Just because the deity knew your final choice did not stop you from making different choices. So each of your choices was your exercising your free will to make a choice.

Of course if you choose to not exercise your free will and make other choices, then the deity will know that and then your initial choice will be your final choice.

Keet

Quit arguing, there is no such thing as a deity. If there were one it would have been fired long ago for being such a lousy guardian ;)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Torsian

@Darian Wolfe

Insanity is relatives. I get along with mine which makes it worse.

Ernest Bywater

@Keet

Quit arguing, there is no such thing as a deity. If there were one it would have been fired long ago for being such a lousy guardian ;)


Think of deity as the same as the head of state of a country - they know what's going on in the country (as a general rule) but they don't give a damn about what each person is doing.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Ernest Bywater

Think of deity as the same as the head of state of a country - they know what's going on in the country (as a general rule) but they don't give a damn about what each person is doing.

I agree that most government heads don't give a damn but at least we know without a doubt that they exist, something we can't say about deities.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Keet

I agree that most government heads don't give a damn but at least we know without a doubt that they exist, something we can't say about deities.


I'm not going to go further with that because we then start to get into the realm where Lazeez will be upset enough to lock the thread due to the religious discussion. However, I will say we acknowledge the existence of many things based solely on their effects on other things and not on any ability to directly see them - to choose what you believe is up to you.

I'll also say - for some people supporting a political party or concept has all of the same aspects of a religious belief, and they treat it the same way.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Ernest Bywater

I'll also say - for some people supporting a political party or concept has all of the same aspects of a religious belief, and they treat it the same way.


Belief isn't really a problem. Zealots intent upon forcing their belief on others IS the problem. Unfortunately whatever belief you care to name, there will be zealots.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@joyR

Belief isn't really a problem. Zealots intent upon forcing their belief on others IS the problem. Unfortunately whatever belief you care to name, there will be zealots.


true.

Crumbly Writer

@samuelmichaels

Once again, I'm coming to the discussion late and playing catch-up:

If you completely ignore the cosmological aspects of religion, the social aspects may have value. There is good evidence that people who go to a house of worship live longer. It's possibly similar to the benefits from participating in other ongoing social activities.

More than that, it seems clear that humans, because of our better capacity to intuit meaning to random events, are naturally drawn to spirituality. It turns out that most atheists, though they don't believe in either God or his associated spirits (i.e. souls) still consider themselves to be deeply spiritual.

I'm a good example, despite being an avowed atheist, I really enjoy attending weekly services (I attend a Unitarian Universalist congregation, which offers a LOT of leeway concerning personal beliefs). If you've read many of my stories, they're all about people searching for bigger meanings in their lives, whether it's an advanced alien culture, other dimensional beings or fate, we each want things to work out and for the good guy to win, despite the odds against them.

But then, I'm the son of a minister, and grew up playing under the alter as a child.

@StarFleet Carl

Part of my is simply due to ... well, experimentation (and actual success) with non-drug induced out of body experiences when I was younger, followed by serious out of body experiences while undergoing major surgery and having heart failure. So yeah, I died on the table.

There was a government experiment years ago, where the researched gave a group of men LSD. The research was suppressed, mainly because it was illegal in the U.S. to publish any paper concerning a class 1 drug, regardless of it's scientific value, but even after the men were told that their 'religious' experiences were entirely fabricated via the drug, every single one of the men (20 I believe in total) went on to become ministers of one sort or another, include the three who were atheists (and who still are).

Again, many cultures regularly use hallucinogenic drugs for religious purposes, and they also seek out the most 'off the wall' individuals within their communities to 'explain' what their experiences mean (making those with modern 'mental illnesses' respected members of the community who provided links to the gods and the dead).

On the flip side, there's a common joke among UU congregations: "We always have trouble with singing hymns, because we're so busy reading ahead to find which words we don't want to sing." So that's probably more of Darian's problem. It's not so much that he's against searching for 'ultimate' truths, but hearing the common cliches about God just rankle him. They certainly do me.

@Awnlee Jawkling

I'm an agnostic, in the broader sense of "don't know" rather than "unknowable".

When I first met my wife, somehow religion never come up. But during pre-marital counceling, the counselor raised the issue. My then-to-be wife said (afterwards) that "I can't imagine being with someone who doesn't have God in his life". So at that point, I officially switched from being an atheist to an agnostic, but was fine with her, she just didn't like not dealing with God. But since our divorce, when I went full atheist again, she's had trouble with my position (though once again, we don't discuss it much).

Now, since I've already wasted yet another day chasing minor details, I'm going to bow out before I blow any more time.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

It turns out that most atheists, though they don't believe in either God or his associated spirits (i.e. souls) still consider themselves to be deeply spiritual.

I wonder what is meant "spiritual". I fail at times but my moral standard is to seek what the retired King of Bhutan calls 'Gross National Happiness'. For example, I consider myself almost obliged to agree to something which is inconvenient for me, but only minor, but provides a greater benefit for someone else. I do so for the very practical and selfish reason that it makes me more happy in the long run. Is that being spiritual?

a government experiment ... gave a group of men LSD. [All 20 became] ministers of one sort or another

From my experience, our brains definitely have a "God Spot" which can be activated by LSD. There has been only one time in my life, of some hours duration, when I was NOT certain there is nothing "out there in the ether". I decided the next day I would NEVER, EVER take LSD again. I have not done so for about the last 40 years.

The thought of any God scared the shit outta me!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
richardshagrin

As I get even older I think it would be nice if life after death were true. Evidence doesn't seem convincing to me. On the other hand, it might not hurt to act as if it might be.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I wonder what is meant "spiritual". I fail at times but my moral standard is to seek what the retired King of Bhutan calls 'Gross National Happiness'. For example, I consider myself almost obliged to agree to something which is inconvenient for me, but only minor, but provides a greater benefit for someone else. I do so for the very practical and selfish reason that it makes me more happy in the long run. Is that being spiritual?

I'll keep this one brief, since I got such flack the last time I mentioned spirituality. But long story short, spirituality does NOT mean 'a believe if spirits', it instead refers to a belief in things bigger than oneself, or more broadly, things on a wider scale, up to and including fate, predestination, or an afterlife.

That's what those studies show, is that even though atheists uniformly reject God (I'm in a subclass, in that I don't believe in the existance of a soul, which thus refutes the notion of the one big father-figure soul "who rules them all"), it doesn't diminish the same part of humanity which constantly strives for some deeper, more personal meaning to things. (i.e. It's not the fear of burning in hell for all eternity which makes men good, it's inherent in humanity, and religion merely abuses these notions to enhance their own power.)

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

As I get even older I think it would be nice if life after death were true. Evidence doesn't seem convincing to me. On the other hand, it might not hurt to act as if it might be.

That's the very definition of an agnostic. I don't really believe it, but since I'm not sure, I'll hedge my bets and play along, just in case.

However, that's also why many on both sides of the debate see agnostics as simply those who 'can't pick a side'.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

I understand. If that's what spirituality means then I have none of that. My long-term ambition in life is become formerly sometimes-contented worm food.

To AJ: I don't approve of cherry-picking from universal markets either. :-)

awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

As I get even older I think it would be nice if life after death were true. Evidence doesn't seem convincing to me. On the other hand, it might not hurt to act as if it might be.


Pascal's wager!

AJ

gruntsgt

When it's finally my time, I just want Argent to come by with a deal for me. LOL

Darian Wolfe

So that's probably more of Darian's problem. It's not so much that he's against searching for 'ultimate' truths, but hearing the common cliches about God just rankle him.


It's something very much like that. In a sense, my mind has been put through a blender. So I tend to be a little scattered now. However, I do remember three important questions That gets one in a lot of theological trouble.

One. Did God say that? Two. Who told you? three. If we establish that God did say it then why did He say it and how do we know THAT? There are lots of questions like that.

Makes one very unpopular in fundamentalist circles, but extremely popular in theological circles(religion nerds). Then there are the practical applications depending on your faith (Assuming your faith encourages or expects daily personal rites). Most people are fairly non-observant statistically speaking then assume that their level of knowledge and expertise is equivalent to someone who is highly observant. Sorry, it's not.

That's like saying someone who picks up a guitar 10 min a week is going to be as good as someone who diligently practices 6 hours a week. Generally speaking, it won't happen. The disciplines are designed to teach and promote growth and yes you can do too much for your own good. That's part of the growth finding the level of practice that best supports your growth.

I've spent a long time 30+ years dedicated to spiritual practices and I get annoyed when people try to teach pappaw how to steal sheep. Especially, when they haven't even learned how to get to the sheep pen yet. The second problem is in America a lot of current American spirituality revolves around consumerism and various levels of entitlement. I'm old school and that drives me nuts. I have my religious prejudices and snobberies too, I'm just honest with myself about them.

Then there are the issues I have with the particular deity involved. Before getting blended I learned to work within a multitude of mental and emotional frameworks. So I know about having faith. When I was much younger I worked around and knew people who ran in the same circles as these faith healers you've heard about on TV and not all of them were fake and not all of them were corrupt, at least not at first. They could do the stuff. In private as well as in church. I learned from them.

Therefore, if the Christian God is real and healing comes from him he has refused to heal me and I don't care why. I need healing. He has refused after repeated prayers so fuck him.

If he doesn't exist and the healing occurs as a matter of Faith being generated within the person and my faith gizmo is broken then I'm just fucked. Either way, I'll go every great now and again if she insists to please her, but it will be meaningless to me.

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