Forum: Author Hangout

I like getting feedback, especially anything which I was unaware of. That said, they only things which really get annoying, quickly, is when I accidentally post the wrong chapter, and then immediately get twenty messages informing me of the exact same chapter. Once I address five of them, usually changing each response to the individual, I feel wrung out. But then, it's better being informed twenty times then never being informed even once!

As for 'tips or tricks', often times someone will convey specific information that I wasn't aware of, and those often result in whole chapters/sections in a sequel, as I 'play' the information out the in the story. So don't think authors aren't interested in seemingly unrelated details.

Authors should inform readers that they will not reply to typo-reports (there's sometimes just too many) but will reply to well meaning other types of support. Would that work?

I find that it's best to ALWAYS respond, otherwise readers will assume that the author doesn't want to be bothered. So if I can't use a particular suggestion, I'll explain why. And if I have to modify the suggestion to get it to fit a particular story, I'll include the version which I went with, and explain why I went the different route.

I think readers being involved like that, so they can SEE how their contributions affect the finished product. Plus, as I've said, sometimes two or three entire chapters in a sequel will be the result of a 'casual suggestion' by a single author. Typically, those readers get a free print version of the book as well.

Doesn't that take an awful lot of time? I'm sure it is appreciated, I would appreciate a reply. But for just one or two typo's I don't expect it.

It takes the reader time too. I always respond, and most times thank them for taking the time to send the feedback.

I find that it's best to ALWAYS respond

Doesn't that take an awful lot of time? I'm sure it is appreciated, I would appreciate a reply. But for just one or two typo's I don't expect it.

Actually, it doesn't take that much, and the time it does take is usually 'busywork' time when I'm otherwise unable to work on stories (kinda like the time I spend in the Forum). I do most of my writing either in the evening, or occasionally when I stay up late into the night and no one disturbs me.

Yes, with that type of messages I would expect a reply too. So, it is just wait and see if a specific author is willing to do something with it or at least respond with a reason why not.

Most of us who do respond will respond fairly quickly, but if we're not currently posting, we may not be checking that particular mailbox often. Also, since I don't check the SOL mailbox system regularly, I often miss messages as it only sends me a single 'You've received a message on SOL' once a day (i.e. if I get six in one day, I might end up missing five until I check the messages on SOL for some other reason).

So yeah, even for those of us who check often, many times we don't keep up because of the way the messages are delivered. Also, there are vacations, mental breakdowns, running away for affairs and hiding out from the police and/or kids. 'D

Oh, I'm not afraid of a negative response, I've got a very slippery back so load it up and it just glides down and away. It's more that I just don't want to bother someone if they don't like it.

It's not a question of whether they like it or not. If they don't want to hear from readers, then they'll disable feedback and messages. What's more common is if an author only wants glowing, positive affirmations, or has decided that his past stories are history, and is no longer interested in cleaning them up.

Those are the more problematic cases, as the author might respond, but still won't be very happy about it.

For me, though, if someone cares about their reputation, they'll respond to complaints (typos, wrong information, mis-postings, etc.) or suggestions (asking for things, suggesting new directions or simply wanting information about where the story is going). But, you've got to remember, as Ross says, each author is different, and some of us are a bit anti-social (i.e. that's spelled "rabid").

So, it's safe to assume that an author who allows messages from readers also appreciates them?

It's largely hit or miss. While some actively fix typos, or seek differing opinions, others either want to be left alone entirely, or only want to hear positive reinforcement.

You generally have to feel out each individual author. I'll generally send one or two correction and see whether the author responds. If not, I remember and never bother pointing thing out to them again. For those that do, I'll then send a few more typos which I held back on before, asking if they want more.

That's how I often find new editors. That back and forth is how I determine whether someone has a good feel the for language, and 'gets' the ideas that I trying to convey. If they consistently suggest changes which I agree with, I'll invite them to edit the upcoming chapter, and then the next book (if they want).

However, you should also remember that not every author responds immediately, especially if they're not currently posting a story. So it may take them a few days to respond.

That's the sort of message I meant where I (or another reader) has specialized knowledge to correct mistakes in a story.

That's like the reader who told me the 737 is not made of steel but aluminum. I made that change.

But another reader told me police do not outline dead bodies as they do in movies. I did not make that change. I left the outline because if it's good enough for Hollywood for impact, it's good enough for me in my story.

Whatever made you think they were made out of steel? A 737 of steel wouldn't even get of the ground.

I never gave it any thought while writing. This is the paragraph. The 737 just crashed into the ocean. Mike is the pilot. He got everyone into the raft and was about to join the others.

Mike handed the oars down to Dad and then turned on his hands and knees with his butt towards us, lowering his right leg, letting it dangle in the air. Dad reached for it, but the jet pitched. Mike fell out. Everything would have been fine if his face hadn't smashed into the hard metal. He fell into Dad's waiting arms, knocking Dad onto his back with Mike on top. All I saw was a bloody mess where his face had been.

"Hard metal" was originally "hard steel." I was just thinking of his face smashing into something hard. I automatically wrote "steel" without thinking of what a jet was made of.

"Hard metal" was originally "hard steel." I was just thinking of his face smashing into something hard. I automatically wrote "steel" without thinking of what a jet was made of.

If he fell out, you could use "DUCK!". During flight they're dangerous and cause several plane crashes. In a raft, they often blindside you, knocking you over. Even worse, they steal all your corn with nothing but a Quack or two in thanks.

I think a lot of the jet engines are hard steel.

They'd never pass the quack test if they weren't! Steel frame bad. Steel engine blades, couldn't fly without them!

But another reader told me police do not outline dead bodies as they do in movies. I did not make that change. I left the outline because if it's good enough for Hollywood for impact, it's good enough for me in my story.

In that case, I would change it, but I'd change it from chalk to a big RED steel crayon! ;D

Has anyone noticed that not a single post in this thread (yet) mentions that the author does not want messages?

Probably because we are focusing on authors who enable feedback. It is understood that an author who disables feedback doesn't want feedback.

still don't want typo messages, just "other" messages.

The only way to minimize typo messages is to tell the reader you don't want them. When you do that, readers are likely to interpret your statement as you needing your ego stroked.

I'm basically a failed author myself: a total of 4K words posted in over two years. I waste my life as an editor, and here. You know what they say ... those who can't do, preach.

Two T. S. Eliot quotes seem appropriate here:

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers.

and

What profession is more trying than that of author?
After you finish a piece of work, it only seems good to you for a few weeks;
or if it seems good at all you are convinced that it is the last you will be able to write;
and if it seems bad you wonder whether everything you have done isn't poor stuff really;
and it is one kind of agony while you are writing, and another kind when you aren't.

I blame you, BTW. You were the one who suggested to me that doing some editing would improve my writing skills.

Well, I never suggested that you take it up as a profession, though you're tackling a job no one else sees interested in: selecting promising newbies and teaching them how to not only correct their grammar, but how to write stories correctly from the initial gate (first online post). That's often a thankless job, but I'm glad that someone is brave enough to do it.

When I first started I got too volunteer editors (Ernest was one of them) who suggested what I needed to do, how I needed to organize and how to respond to editors, and then immediately baled after getting me started (after only the second chapter).

It's nice you have to fortitude to follow them to success. Here's hoping they appreciate it.

They often don't know. I guess that makes me a bit of an acquired taste - like Vegemite.

I think you just earned yourself a new tag: the Vegemite editor!

Thankfully I'm not an author, I couldn't do what you writers do.

Part of what we authors do is what our editors have repeatedly hit us over the head to get us to STOP doing! 'D

The photo showed a guy with the name "Hu" on the back of his uniform.

There's a Korean baseball player traded to the Colorado Rockies. His name is Seunghwan Oh. He wore 2 different numbers on previous teams. Both were taken. So he chose 18.

On the back of his jersey is his last name (Oh) and under that the number 18.

The actual translation is not the problem, but the pronunciation. The number eighteen is pronounced Ship-pal. While a Korean could probably pronounce it correctly, our poor Anglo vocal cords are wired a little differently. Unfortunately, if you say this number with even the slightest error in pronunciation, it sounds an awful lot like the F-word in Korean (shi-bal / 씨발).

So when you read the back of his jersey, it's, "Oh fuck."

So when you read the back of his jersey, it's, "Oh fuck."

Sounds like something someone should use in a story. Any promising Korean SOL authors out there?

But what about authors that don't disable but still don't want typo messages, just "other" messages.

I've seen notes in stories where the author says he doesn't care about typos and isn't bothered by them. Interestingly, those stories don't seem to have typos.

The worst are the bugs that cause unexplainable behavior

The worse case I came across in my IT career was random/different errors. It turned out to be a paperclip in the mainframe. When it moved, it touched something and caused an error. A different error each time.

But most authors seem to be OK with it. Whether they actually make changes is another matter altogether.

One thing you'll see is that, while most will fix a typo right away, some will merely add it to their 'to do list' and won't update the chapter in question until they have a BUNCH of updates (possibly some months later). Now those are a frustrating bunch, as you think they're going to address an issue, yet they never seem to get around to it, yet never address the delay.

If I find an author doesn't do anything with a typo report I would just stop sending them. Not after a week, but several months later and nothing changed? No more reports.

That's why I try to respond immediately. I've had a couple of helpful readers who sent a couple of initial suggestions and I was unable (for one reason or another) to get back to them immediately. As a result, I got no other typos mentioned for the entire story. That's like losing a promising editor just because I'm on the road, or visiting a sick relative. :(

Possibly, but not normally. Out of a 1,000 readers, many do not consciously notice a typo; they just keep reading. Of those who notice the error, only a small percentage will go to the effort necessary to report it to you.

shows which story and chapter the feedback is being provided for.

Not quite accurate. It shows the chapter from which you sent the feedback message.

When I read I accumulate typos reports on multiple chapters and then send a consolidated message from the last chapter read.

My feedback would be:

Jack and jill whent up the hill - Jill went

That makes the mistake easier to see. When I first read your example, I missed 'jill'.

I didn't think of that. Accumulating would be better then a message for each typo (hoping there aren't too many). So back to listing story and chapter for reach error found.

I do a variation, where I create a list of errors that bug me, but only send one or two, just to see how the author responds. If they respond positively, I'll ask if they want more. If so, I'll send them the complete list for a single chapter. Then, if they're still interested, we'll talk. 'D

But yeah, telling them you like the story is a must, but it also helps if you go a little further, pointing out precisely what you appreciate about their writing (i.e. "I love you dialogues and the way you build suspense, although you can work a little more on your punctuation").

Advice is always easier to swallow is it's not all negative.

I just sent a test SOL mail message to myself.

The same commands for bold and italics work in the editor for mail messages as here on the forums ...

Good to know. Since the box doesn't say anything about what's allowable, I've always assumed it doesn't support those functions. I KNOW it doesn't support many of the things that SOL does (like em-dashes and ellises (which it converts to three dots).

The feedback system doesn't support character formatting.

I have been considering using the Bold function to highlight changed words to make it easier to spot. Cannot remember now if that is a valid function in feedback or not.

That's what we used to do with emailed messages. Now, with the SOL messaging system, you have to capitalize them instead. :(

Is there a preferred format that would work for most authors?

I start the message with any comments about enjoying the story that are appropriate and a comment to the effect that I noted the following.

That is followed by identification of the chapter(s) and for each chapter a listing of the error(s).

For each error, I paste the segment of text containing the error followed by a dash and an explanation of the error. I use a similar format to make suggestions.

Is there a preferred format that would work for most authors? I was thinking about story-title/chapter/part of the sentence with the error and then mentioning what specif error was detected.
Would that be enough?

For typos, I've found the best approach is to list the story title and chapter, and then include the full (or significant part) so an author can FIND the typo. Often, someone will simply say "you misspelled xxx" without specifying HOW you misspelled it, or where it occurred in the story. :(

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Added a suggested change helps too, as it often helps us understand why you think the usage was erroneous, as it's sometimes not obvious, as in the case of serial commas or alternate spellings.

Ah, the dreaded ", and ". I still see every one of those as wrong because that is a big no-no in my language (Dutch). I understand from discussion here in the forum the difference between using the comma or not but it still looks like an error to me.

The Oxford comma, at least for me, ensures no ambiguity, which is why I use it. It always looks odd in my eyes when it's NOT used. :-)

It all comes down to what we learned in the first place.

Nah, I'm a convert, which makes me zealous about it to a fault! :-)

The Oxford comma, at least for me, ensures no ambiguity, which is why I use it. It always looks odd in my eyes when it's NOT used.

Ditto for me.

When it's not there I assume the last two are joined rather than the last two in a list.

But what when you get dozens of reports about the same error? Of course it means you have a lot attentive readers, so that's a plus, but still. With a 1000+ readers and 3 typos over the last 2 uploads you could be looking at a lot of email. Has that ever happened?

IF it gets bad enough, instead of responding individually to each one, you instead post a blog message about it, and/or add a post the the story comments about it. That way, even readers who don't follow an author's blog will eventually find it if they're wondering why the author hasn't yet responded to them. :(

I didn't think of the story comments. That's a good place to reach many more readers than the blog if necessary.

Just as many readers never read the blog, many never read the end-of-story comments. Just as many also never read prologues or forewards. However, blogs are excellent for reaching those who've never considered you story before, and you can sometimes convince them they should give it a shot with an insightful blog entry.

Can an author change a message on the index page of a story easily? If so that might be a good place.

Theoretically, just post a new message with a chapter update, but Lazeez recently informed me that you cannot change an index structure once created (i.e. you can't add or delete section headers).

Those are done with the { notice} and { warning} tags.

But what when you get dozens of reports about the same error? Of course it means you have a lot attentive readers, so that's a plus, but still. With a 1000+ readers and 3 typos over the last 2 uploads you could be looking at a lot of email. Has that ever happened?

That's why I post corrections as quickly as possible! :-) I've never received more than four reports for the same error, and it doesn't bother me, nor would six or eight or ten bother me. But that's just me.

That's why I post corrections as quickly as possible! :-) I've never received more than four reports for the same error, and it doesn't bother me, nor would six or eight or ten bother me.

Typically, when you get dozens, it's not for a simple typo, but because you posted the wrong chapter, a chapter from the wrong book, or something utterly unreadable (non-printable characters). That's when readers start piling on.

Funny thing, too, despite literally thousands of eyeballs, including a very, very good editor, a formal proofreader, three informal proofreaders, my Patrons, AND early release readers, errors are still found in things which have been available on SOL for years.

New eyes for old works are not only welcomed, but they're wonderful for seeing things all the OLD eyes have missed!

I think of all my readers as beta readers.

That's a good way of looking at it when readers report typos. I agree with not responding to just typo errors, but that's me. I read here that other authors feel that those also deserve a reply.

I instead look at them as consumers, who invested considering time and energy, not just in reading your work, but also in voicing their opinion and considering how best to respond. As such, they deserve to know that you, an author, care not only about their opinion, but about the quality of your work.

As for beta-readers, I like to put them through the ringer, telling them WHAT I want to know about the story, and possibly even including a questionaire to respond to about it. For me, beta-readers aren't passive, but have to do serious work for the task, as I look to them for very specific answers about a story (i.e. whether this technique works or not, whether character G is likeable or not, or whether you BUY this premise or not).

Luckily, I don't put many through that experience! 'D

I mentioned that in another thread that discussed a possible list for updates. Less errors makes SOL better too because of a better quality of stories.

Someone also mentioned beta readers. I've seen other authors trying to form beta-reader groups (people who volunteer to read early versions of stories to see which things they either don't like or can't quite understand). I'm wondering whether maybe we should have a beta-reader group of volunteers on SOL. If so, though, I have no idea how it might be run.

I think something useful would be for authors to put a statement in their profile they WANT or DO NOT WANT comments and suggestions on their stories. Seldom have I seen anything like that.

Personally, I'd prefer a flag, triggered when you first post a story, asking whether you'll respond to messages or not, so that, when someone goes to send a message, it'll say something like "This author only accepts positive praise" or "This author accepts anything, including death threats". However, that would be difficult to implement, and harder to enforce—especially as authors get older and run into health issues preventing them from responding.

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< > is HTML. { } is SOL.

I iz a dweeb.

We all have our moments, both good and bad.

Mine are coming more and more frequently. Now where did I put my beer....

It gets worse.

"Those beers were good. Now where the hell is the toilet?"

This person, and there has been more than one, I just feel bad for. I will thank them randomly but mostly ignore.

That's exactly the person I don't want to be and one of the reasons why I posted the question in the first place.

As I mentioned earlier, the difference between the two is usually obvious in their attitude, though it's also WHY I start off with a specific complement about their writing, just so they'll know I both read and recognize their real skills, rather than just saying "like the story, but ..."

This person, and there has been more than one, I just feel bad for. I will thank them randomly but mostly ignore.

I've got to agree with your summation. It's all in the delivery, as the delivery sums up their entire attitude. Either they like the story, or they don't think much of it but still think you should waste your time chasing whatever nits are burrowed up their ass.

Luckily, I don't get many of those. My fans (and haters both) are pretty polite—most of the time.

One author made a lot of similar mistakes all over her stories, so reporting them would not make sense (I would have to report every other paragraph), so I offered to do editing for her (I really love her stories, but the unnecessary typos set me off). So far, I didn't get a reply, although she stated that she was looking for an editor.

If she's still making the mistakes, I'd give her a reminder. It's not uncommon for someone to get wrapped up in something else (like hitting a deadline) and forget to respond. Just say: 'I notice you're continuing to miss certain specific typos, I wouldn't mind identifying them for you if you're interested, but if not, that's fine too.'

That's nice, friendly and not too in your face. In that case, if she doesn't respond, it's clearly because she doesn't care (though if it's who I think it is, she's probably getting drilled by her editor, so she's reluctant to take on yet another hard-ass!)

One author made a lot of similar mistakes all over her stories, so reporting them would not make sense (I would have to report every other paragraph)

On the contrary, what I do then is send a message saying something like, "You have a tendency of writing 'sue' where it should be 'use'."

Or I might say, "You're switching tenses."

It's then up to the author to track the errors down.

It's then up to the author to track the errors down.

That will work for some of the errors, especially if it's 10 out of 15 usages. However, I've had errors reported where that will not work at all, and the only way to find the issue is when the person says, 'Chapter x where the text has "... blah blank ches melq .." so I can use the text to find the issue.

Most of the time this happens is when something got borked by the Wizard and no amount of searching my master file will find such an error. Sometimes the SoL wizard has run words together when the html text had a space but the text was wrapped. Such errors aren't consistent and will often be fixed by simply uploading the same file again.

On the contrary, what I do then is send a message saying something like, "You have a tendency of writing 'sue' where it should be 'use'."

Or I might say, "You're switching tenses."

It's then up to the author to track the errors down.

I agree. If the authors keeps making the same mistake, it's like muscle memory, like when Ernest keeps using "sue". But once they know it, they can either try to break the habit, or more realistically, they can do global search and replace commands to change them ALL at once and be done with it. But those types of typos are both harder AND easier to manage than those you're not aware that you make.

That works for some consistent mistakes but "sue" and "use" is not one of them since they are both correct words. Now if you know you didn't use the word "sue" it could still work, or if you know you just used it once or twice in a specific chapter you could change those back. In my business I have learned to be very careful with global replacements.

You're right, of course. I was mainly thinking of my "hte" example, as there aren't many valid three letter words spelled that way, but I just went through one of my stories, correcting a fairly common spelling with global search and replace. It's a pain, but if you do it with a single search at a time, it is doable, though you're likely to mess up a couple in the process. :(

Ernest keeps using "sue"

The problem with global search and replace without confirmation is changing 'sue' to 'use' will affect words like 'pursue'.

You can add a space before and after to isolate the character string, but then you miss the occurrences preceded/followed by a quote, comma, period, etc.

If the authors keeps making the same mistake, it's like muscle memory, like when Ernest keeps using "sue

My editor's favorites:

someting instead of 'something';
Japanse instead of 'Japanese';
rally instead of 'really'

Of course his REAL favorite was when I misspelled my own name! :-)

I found a way to check if it makes sense to send an author a typo report if you've never contacted that author before. Just check the chapters for the story and see if any are updated. If none of the chapters are updated the author most likely doesn't do updates so no use in sending a typo report.

A lot of that depends upon their current editors. My last few stories, I won't get more than a couple of suggestions, but then someone will read it and suggest quite a few, so I'll go a long time with few changes, followed by many changes in a very short period.

I received 117 emails about Corvette cars not having back seats. I did not respond. Did consider using a hammer on the next Corvette I saw.

My early readers catch these kinds of faux pas for me. And I've made some doozies. Anyone want an iPad in 2006??? :-)

Anyone want an iPad in 2006??? :-)

People with eye injuries have been after eye-pads for decades.

Yeah if I can get a do-over to go with it.