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Things authors do that bother you...

evilynnthales
Updated:

Please post something authors get wrong. Things that bug you and/or throw you out of the story.

Something you wish more authors realized.

I'll go first...

======================

10 seconds isn't short.

I read a story the other day, a fairly mainstream fantasy, and they did something that bugs me. It's something that I see often in stories.

"Players are forced to immediately throw the ball because it's enchanted to shock anyone that holds it for longer than TEN SECONDS!" (I'm paraphrasing here)

The author wants to show that players don't have time to pick out a target to throw the ball to. They need to immediately throw it. I'm sure the author and proofreaders thought "A second is fast, so 10 seconds would force them to throw right away!"

But they are wrong.

"Mississippi one, Mississippi two, Mississippi three, Mississippi four, Mississippi five, Mississippi six, Mississippi seven, Mississippi eight, Mississippi nine, Mississippi ten."

The actual timer the author is looking for is one second. Perhaps even less than a second.

"He charged into the room, paused in the doorway for a few seconds, then attacked!" That's not a surprise attack. A dangerous opponent had plenty of time to look at the door and see who is there, draw a weapon, and attack first.

"I ran to the other side of the room, and was out the door in less than ten seconds!" That's a slow walk across even a huge room. Unless your in a warehouse running definitely wasn't involved.

Ten seconds is an eternity

sunkuwan

@evilynnthales

- characters constantly "chuckling"
- filtering out profanities in a sex story is bad enough (seriously?) but then to use a fantasy word constantly for every character who don't even know each other ("goddongit")
- stupidity for plots sake
- not caring for health issues like ass to pussy sex and/or not implementing or mentioning STD dangers.

tendertouch

@evilynnthales

Adverb overload. I've recently been rereading a well known and well thought of story here and gritting my teeth because sometimes it seems that every other verb gets a 'very' prepended. Adverbs can be useful but they have more punch if they're used sparingly.

Wheezer

Starting every other damned sentence in the story with a participle or gerund! Doing that annoys the hell out of me!!!
(see what I did there?)

Replies:   Ross at Play
seanski1969

Too many stories of the extremely sensitive and wimpy teenage male who gets the girl. Do teenage males exist with that much drama? Hell when I was young everyone so messed up with hormone changes that testosterone was beyond rampant.

Replies:   tendertouch
Wheezer

...and let's not even get started on homonym/homophone abuse and misuse. Few things ruin a story quicker for me than some writer who cannot tell the difference between their, there & they're (along with numerous other examples) and doesn't know or care to try & fix it.

tendertouch

@seanski1969

Do teenage males exist with that much drama?

Yes.

As for the extremely sensitive and wimpy teenage male getting the girl, didn't happen for me but all else being equal I appreciate it when I see it in a story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
tendertouch

Stories that apparently were never proofread by anyone but the author. 'Loose' in place of 'lose', verb/subject mismatch, repeated words - just the simple things.

Ross at Play

@Wheezer

Starting every other damned sentence in the story with a participle or gerund! Doing that ...

... can result in sentences with no verb. :-)

REP

Words left in a sentence that don't belong - probably overlooked when rewriting a sentence. Necessary words left out of the sentence. I'm with Wheezer on homonyms.

Safe_Bet

When Grok the Caveman uses a Bic lighter without explaining where he got it!

Switch Blayde

@sunkuwan

ass to pussy sex


I was trying to figure out how that kind of sex was done — and then I realized what you meant. Sheesh.

or mentioning STD dangers.


IMO, that should only be mentioned if it's part of the story. Alfred Hitchcock once said: "Drama is life without the boring bits." You can't fill a story with a lot of boring bits.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sunseeker
Updated:

using the word cooed when describing a female talking and "little one" as a term of endearment.

Letting characters that try to kill the mc go so they can write more drama when said characters come and try to kill the mc again

seanski1969

"He waggled his eyebrows at her"

I'm looking for my Grandpa's Grandpa with that old stylistic line.

Centaur

swapping he/she or forgetting the T in the.
changing POV mid-paragraph or past/present tense

robberhands

Things authors do that bother you...

Blatant narrative falsehoods. Two examples:

The narrator describes the male MC as 'very mature for his young age', but then all I get is a hormonal challenged teenager, drooling over every pair of tits in sight and losing consciousness when he watches two women kissing each other.

I read chapter over chapter dedicated to the star-fated love of the MC and the woman of his dreams and suddenly the author hits the reset button. The MC and his former loveinterst decide the last twenty chapters have been just a joke, brake up for some surprising reason and pick someone new to become the greatest love of their lives.

Michael Loucks

@sunkuwan

- characters constantly "chuckling"


Or giggling. :-)

(My two main failings, which I have to watch carefully).:-)

Michael Loucks

@sunkuwan

- not caring for health issues like...not implementing or mentioning STD dangers.


Some authors explicitly state their stories occur in universes where STDs do not exist. For some readers (and author's I'm sure) those concerns mess up the erotic nature of the story. Not a big deal to me, either way.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@Michael Loucks

yeah, OSL states that STD's don't exist in his universe.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  PotomacBob
Not_a_ID

@sunkuwan

yeah, OSL states that STD's don't exist in his universe.


It also is part of the premise of the vast majority of Naked in School stories. STDs have been cured, and birth control is a shot you take every so many months.

There are, of course, authors who decided to use settings where that is not the case, but they're exceptions, not the rule.

For the purposes of most erotic fiction, I operate on the assumption STDs have been removed from that world by some means unless or until the author says otherwise in the story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@tendertouch

As for the extremely sensitive and wimpy teenage male getting the girl, didn't happen for me but all else being equal I appreciate it when I see it in a story.

It's a common literary motif that those who suffer eventually win, it's the whole 'underdog' meme. It's not that they're 'wimpy', it's that they've suffered, refocused their efforts and have rose above their earlier positions.

Put it another way, consider all those 'wimpy nerds' who now own software company worth billions? Being the top of the heap in high school isn't a clear path to success in life, and teenage girls can rarely judge worth in suitors as they lack the necessary experience in dealing with people

However, the key word here is 'wimpy'. You don't want your main character to be a punching bag, instead, they've got to have an under core of steel resolve, and be willing to suffer in order to win the day. Just because someone gets picked on doesn't make anyone 'great'.

Replies:   tendertouch
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

IMO, that should only be mentioned if it's part of the story. Alfred Hitchcock once said: "Drama is life without the boring bits." You can't fill a story with a lot of boring bits.

That makes sense, but it's such a major concern for so many, that it's worth at least a single sentence's mention in a story. Otherwise, the story seems to be complete fantasy, rather than representing the 'common man' who often wrestles with these issues and ends up being bitten on the dick by them too.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@sunseeker

Letting characters that try to kill the mc go so they can write more drama when said characters come and try to kill the mc again

Does that fit under the previously mentioned 'pansy' objection. There's being betrayed after trusting someone, but then there's doing something that common sense tells you is simply a stupid, stupid move.

Crumbly Writer

@Michael Loucks

- characters constantly "chuckling"

Or giggling. :-)

(My two main failings, which I have to watch carefully).:-)

Showing mirth or humor in a given situation can help define a character (it demonstrates a tendency to not take oneself overly seriously), but one major problem is just how to achieve it. For those unable to think of clever comebacks, a chuckle is the easiest solution, but is often overly simplistic. But you also have to watch how someone can talk incessantly while laughing at the same time.

Replies:   sunkuwan
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

For the purposes of most erotic fiction, I operate on the assumption STDs have been removed from that world by some means unless or until the author says otherwise in the story.

Gonorrhea or syphilis is a real mood-killer in a story arc.

Replies:   Centaur
oyster50

@Michael Loucks

Well, poo!

I like using both, because I like writing happy conversations and find that a chuckle or a giggle verbalizes those feelings.

As I read through other peeves on this thread, I agree with the homophone list and the spelling errors, though.
'
I mean, come on, dude... You're writing porn and you haven't figured out 'tounge'?

Replies:   robberhands
sunkuwan

@Crumbly Writer

I am currently reading "Magician" by QM and every character is chuckling, every time. It feels like every conversation contains at minimum 1 chuckle.

Crumbly Writer

@sunkuwan

I am currently reading "Magician" by QM and every character is chuckling, every time. It feels like every conversation contains at minimum 1 chuckle.

Like every tool in an artist's quiver, each is only valuable when used appropriately. Using any one all the time robs it of it's power, making it's use merely obsessive. The key is picking the right time and place, and then largely underselling it, so it stands on its own rather than the author forcing it on readers.

But I agree, it can and does get overused. I was merely referring to how authors frequently have to struggle with finding ways of utilizing it.

robberhands

@oyster50

I mean, come on, dude... You're writing porn and you haven't figured out 'tounge'?

No, dude, I don't want my porn to be that dirty.

tendertouch

@Crumbly Writer

However, the key word here is 'wimpy'.


Which means different things to different people. Yes, it can mean spineless, but it also can mean too damned weak to do anything about it. I don't mind a character who is a punching bag, but one that grovels so he won't be used as a punching bag is another thing altogether.

I don't know that I've seen many stories with the cowardly version of the wimp getting the girl. In some he finally gets the girl when he decides to stand up for himself or, more likely, someone else even though he gets thoroughly thrashed in the process.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@tendertouch

Personally, I like the physically weak type of MC who uses his wits and friends to overcome situations.
I get frustrated when he is also a woman-whisperer

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@sunkuwan

Personally, I like the physically weak type of MC who uses his wits and friends to overcome situations.

That's part of the 'physical limitations' meme, where the main character is seen as flawed, yet he manages to overcome his inherent flaws to prove himself despite his natural inclinations. Thus the character from "House M.D." qualifies under this particular meme, even though he's simply an ass, his limp notwithstanding.

What bothers me with those situations isn't that a particularly weak character wins the girl, but he wins girl after girl after girl, with not a single one questioning him or turning their backs to him. Even one or two cold shoulders would feel like a splash of refreshing cold water after so much of the same.

Switch Blayde

@sunkuwan

I am currently reading "Magician" by QM and every character is chuckling, every time. It feels like every conversation contains at minimum 1 chuckle.


I once read a series (can't remember it's name or the author's name) that I liked a great deal. Something like "The House at the End of the Street."

One day in his blog, he said he was going to "show" more. I don't think he understood what that meant. Every character kept sighing.

Replies:   madnige
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Otherwise, the story seems to be complete fantasy, rather than representing the 'common man' who often wrestles with these issues and ends up being bitten on the dick by them too.


I doubt that there are very many people among the 'common man' who actually want to read a story about someone else living the same boring, dreary life that they are living. Fantasy and escapism are 98% of the point of recreational reading.

samuelmichaels

@Dominions Son

I doubt that there are very many people among the 'common man' who actually want to read a story about someone else living the same boring, dreary life that they are living. Fantasy and escapism are 98% of the point of recreational reading.

And the other 2% is chuckling and sighing over the quirks and idiosyncrasies of the story.

Not_a_ID

@sunkuwan

I am currently reading "Magician" by QM and every character is chuckling, every time. It feels like every conversation contains at minimum 1 chuckle.


I think the better way to express this particular complaint isn't to complain about chucking or laughter.

The real issue in play here is when most of nearly all characters demonstrate the same behavioural patterns and most of the same quirks.

So having a character who is always smirking or smiling about something is ok. But only so long as they're the only ones always doing so. That isn't to say the others can't smirk or smile, just that you better justify why they're doing so, and possibly differentiate on the specific descriptors used(unless character is intending to mimic/imitate on some level).

Centaur

@Crumbly Writer

Gonorrhea or syphilis is a real mood-killer in a story arc.

Unless it's part of a sub-plot. I have read a few where it's been used as for making a point or some such. Stupid boy had a STD in one of the books.

Centaur

@sunkuwan

Don't forget to read the sequel Magic.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

I doubt that there are very many people among the 'common man' who actually want to read a story about someone else living the same boring, dreary life that they are living. Fantasy and escapism are 98% of the point of recreational reading.

The whole 'common man' approach was never about writing about boring people, instead it's a way of humanizing a story's main characters and giving a way for readers to relate to someone who's ever wish comes true with no effort on his part.

You'll find the same 'common man' approach is stories as varied as thrillers, post-apocalyptic tales, space sagas, historical epics. It's not about Walter Mitty stories.

Instead, readers need a reason to care about what happens to a character. If the character isn't particularly pleasant, or his situation doesn't seem 'real' (where many stories with people riding space ships are considered 'realistic portrayals'), then you'll lose many readers.

Replies:   Dominions Son
madnige
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

I once read a series (can't remember it's name or the author's name) that I liked a great deal. Something like "The House at the End of the Street."


That's the Town of Haven series by A Strange Geek. Story named is the second in the series.

One day in his blog, he said he was going to "show" more.


Must have been before 2013, as there's nothing in his blog about that now.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

or his situation doesn't seem 'real' (where many stories with people riding space ships are considered 'realistic portrayals'), then you'll lose many readers.


As I said before, fantasy and escapism are a big part of recreational reading for many readers. You can lose just as many readers if the situation seems too real.

Uther_Pendragon

@evilynnthales

One thing that bugs me in books -- published books, so most of the proofreading issues have been eliminated,
is when the author thinks he's writing about the real world, but he isn't. I read one romance until a character said [paraphrased] "I thought only we scientists believed in magic."
Gal, you want to bring in magic, I'll read it. You want to bring in physicists believing in magic, I'll bail.

imnotwrong
Updated:

There are two things that writers do that are annoying me right now, because I've recently been encountering them heavily. Both are ways writers get too cute with surprises. I'll post them separately for easier replying, and because the second one is rather long.

First one is a writer who deliberately withholds story codes they KNOW ARE COMING until the moment they arrive in the story. There is a reason sites like this have stories code requirements and story code filters. It's because not everyone likes the same things. You might not like some of my fetishes, and I might not like some of yours. That's fine. But trying to sucker me into reading something I don't like is HIGHLY disrespectful. I am an adult, not some five-year-old who won't eat a mushroom because it looks weird.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@imnotwrong


First one is a writer who deliberately withholds story codes they KNOW ARE COMING until the moment they arrive in the story.


In my mind that's about the only thing that really justifies a 1 vote. It ensures the author is placed on my blacklist of authors to avoid at all costs.

It's so easy to put the code in and include a note as part of the story description to state a code belongs to one particular scene in one chapter if it's very minor.

imnotwrong

There are two things that writers do that are annoying me right now, because I've recently been encountering them heavily. Both are ways writers get too cute with surprises. I'll post them separately for easier replying, and because the second one is rather long.

The second one is when a writer is so devoted to drama and swerves for their own sake, they willfully ignore all previous characterization and force one or more characters to act EXTREMELY out of character just to get that little bit of extra drama.

And when I say extremely, I mean the kind of thing that would have made Vince McMahon tell Vince Russo "NO CHANCE IN HELL!"

I'm not going to name names, but I'll give an example of one that looks like it is about to happen:

Main character is a young teen who is only just recovering from moths of a sever depression after his girlfriend committed suicide while fighting cancer, a fight he didn't know about until her funeral. His family has been supportive, but he has also had his best friend since diapers. His female best friend. She has been his emotional rock. Ferociously loyal, comforts him, supports him, worries about him. And yet, in the most recent chapter, this same person takes the main character the her favorite spot, talks about her feelings for him, looks at him in a way she would know damned well he could only read one way, has sex with him . . . and then dumps him? Knowing everything he's been through the past year?

I'm sorry, but no. It breaks all characterization to have the girl from every chapter before that point to treat him with that level of thoughtless, callus, emotional BRUTALITY. It would destroy all credibility for her character, the story, and the author.

I'm not saying betrayal doesn't happen. I'm not even saying that betrayal is bad for storytelling. Hell, as the earlier reference suggests, I'm an old-school pro wrestling fan. But even THEY knew enough about characterization to know that there were some thing you just don't do without a damned good set-up. There was a good reason why NOBODY ever tried the make Ricky Steamboat turn heel. Because nobody would believe it!

Drama in a story is fun and exciting. But sometimes a writer needs to take a good look at the characters and characterization in front of them and realize that they just shouldn't go there.

tendertouch

@imnotwrong

First one is a writer who deliberately withholds story codes they KNOW ARE COMING until the moment they arrive in the story.


Of course some writers don't know what's coming up because they're making it up as they go along but I agree with your point. It's one of the reasons I almost never start stories these days until they're complete. By then the author should have an idea what's going on and have coded for it.

Not fully coding a story is definitely one of my peeves. I'm OK if the author says in the synopsis that they are withholding codes (though I won't read the story) but if they just leave off codes that I find objectionable then they get a 1 vote and they land on my exclusion list. The codes aren't only there to let us know what stories we'll be interested in but also the ones that we'll want to avoid.

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@tendertouch

Most authors tend to write the same or very similar types of stories and they develop habits in the way they present their stories.

I agree that the practice of withholding a story code that you know will be added as a surprise is not appropriate. The readers of authors who use this practice should be aware of the author's habit of adding uncoded content to a story. If you haven't read their stories, then you can always review the codes they assigned to completed stories, and hopefully they added missing codes when they included potentially objectionable material in a story. Of course that assumes the author has multiple stories posted and that you read or attempted to read the stories. If true, then you should have a general idea of the types of content to expect of that author.

A new author or an author you haven't read is a different situation, and there is no way to predict what you will encounter. :( However, a new author is an experienced reader. They should know that including uncoded scenes that may be objectionable is a bad practice based on how they felt when they encountered objectionable content. On the other hand, maybe as a reader, the new author liked having uncoded, objectionable material being included as a surprise.

They should also have read Lazeez guides to good writing practices including the sections addressing proper coding for a story. If they implement inappropriate practices, they deserve to lose their readers. But they should be aware that others don't share their opinion.Unfortunately, new authors will not read the guides or they think they can get away with practices they objected to other writers using. :(

minor edits

Safe_Bet

LOL... ANOTHER thing that I find annoying is when the writer has several characters that have the same and/or very similar names. I just reviewed one like that where there was an "Uncle Lee (called Lee) and a niece named Lee. The writer used a lot of dialog that went, "and Lee said" when both character were present. Even taking context into account it could be confusing.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer  Grant
REP

@Safe_Bet

Even taking context into account it could be confusing.


I agree. I'm having that problem with Part 2 of my current story. Part 1 of the story had a Sam Thomas and a Samantha (Sam) Reppa and they have major postions in the story.

I fixed that problem for future stories. I found several lists of first and last names and merged the respective lists. I then deleted duplicates of first names and last names, but missed a few duplicates and need to go through the listing again. I now have a list of about 800 first-last character names. I just have to avoid names where a nickname duplicates another characters name, like Sam/Samantha.

shinerdrinker
Updated:

Thinking about the 'chuckling' conundrum, I'll share this.

Found it on a graphic I stumbled upon one night while perusing various MILF video vignettes.

Smirk: Slight, often fleeting upturning of the corners of the mouth, completely voluntary and controllable

Smile: Silent, voluntary and controllable, more perceptible than a smirk; begins to release endorphins

Grin: Silent, controllable but uses more facial muscles

Snicker: First emergence of sound with facial muscles, but still controllable

Giggle: Has a 50% chance of reversal to avoid a full laugh; sound of giggling is amusing; efforts to suppress it tend to increase its strength

Chuckle: Involves chest muscles with deeper pitch

Chortle: Originates even deeper in the chest and involves muscles of torso; usually provokes laughter in others

Laugh: Involves facial and thoracic muscles as well as abdomen and extremities; sound of barking or snorting

Cackle: First involuntary stage; pitch is higher and body begins to rock, spine extends and flexes, with an upturning of head

Guffaw: Full body response; feet stomp, arms wave, thighs slapped, torso rocks, sound is deep and loud; may result in free flowing of tears, increased heart rate and breathlessness; strongest solitary laughter experience

Howl: Volume and pitch rise higher and higher and body becomes more animated

Shriek: Greater intensity than howl; sense of helplessness and vulnerability

Roar: Lose individuality; i.e., the audience roars!

Hope this can help!

Crumbly Writer

@Safe_Bet

LOL... ANOTHER thing that I find annoying is when the writer has several characters that have the same and/or very similar names. I just reviewed one like that where there was an "Uncle Lee (called Lee) and a niece named Lee. The writer used a lot of dialog that went, "and Lee said" when both character were present. Even taking context into account it could be confusing.

I had one story, with well over 100 characters, where I had some fun with this. Finding another character with the same name, the MC dubs him "Alex 2". I had fun playing around with this (ex: "which Alex is that?"/"Oh, Alex 1").

Even in my newest story, dealing with aliens whose names are so strange they'd never repeat, the humans assign human names to anyone who's name they can't pronounce, and if one happens to act like a previous character, they simply say, "OK, we'll just call you Gary 2 until we finally master your name."

But, at least I make it clear who's saying what, and my editors are very good at telling me when my speakers aren't clearly identified.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Crumbly Writer

@shinerdrinker

Found it on a graphic I stumbled upon one night while perusing various MILF video vignettes.

Smirk: Slight, often fleeting upturning of the corners of the mouth, completely voluntary and controllable

I like your list, because not only does it tell you how a character displays the action, but it ties the character's actions to the responses of other characters, so authors using the list are less likely to abuse the attributions.

Grant

@Safe_Bet

LOL... ANOTHER thing that I find annoying is when the writer has several characters that have the same and/or very similar names.

Similar issue- the character has a name, then they have a nick name, then they have another nick name used by another character.
5 characters aren't a lot, but if there ends up being 15 names used for those 5 it's somewhat ridiculous (and difficult to follow).

imnotwrong

@Grant

Similar issue- the character has a name, then they have a nick name, then they have another nick name used by another character.
5 characters aren't a lot, but if there ends up being 15 names used for those 5 it's somewhat ridiculous (and difficult to follow).


Thing is, that can happen in real life. My father's first name was Charles. His family took to calling him by his middle name, and when he joined the Army, the called him Red for his hair color. One man, three names.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

@Grant

the character has a name, then they have a nick name, then they have another nick name used by another character.


Common in real life. Some people know a person by one nickname, and others know them by another nickname - depending on where they first met. Most people call people by the name they were first introduced to some one by, so you get that.

Related to that is the use of short name forms. My family always called me Ernest, those who knew me from school always called me Ernie, those who knew me from work called me Ern, and I also picked up the nickname of 'Deadly Ernest' which also got shortened to 'Deadly' along the way.

I know someone named Gary James who gets Gary, Gazza, GJ, Rev, Skipper, and Skip from different people due to where they first met him - there's 6 to play with.

Ernest Bywater

@Grant

Similar issue- the character has a name, then they have a nick name, then they have another nick name used by another character.


In one of my works in progress I have a character whose name and nickname are based on someone I know. The character is named after his grandfather and the legal name is Randolph Leyland Taylor - Leyland is pronounced lay-land by some people and lee-land by others. Mother not wanting him called Randy for short starts him out with the nickname of Lee as the short form of his middle name. Due to activities as a youth he also picks up the nickname of Tinker thus he gets called Lee or Tinker by people and the official records call him Randolph.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Which all goes to show, you really can't make it a rule that no author can ever use more than one name to refer to someone, but just like using first and last names in informal and formal settings, you've got to work extra hard to remind readers of each name, who knows him by those names, and when it's appropriate to use them. The sheer workload in keeping all of that straight, and keeping the reader appraised as the story progresses, should discourage most authors from even attempting it.

It's not that it can't be done, but the more complicated you make an otherwise simple thing, the more difficult it gets to implement. And it's yet another reason why many authors keep active character lists, so they can keep their character names straight, and hopefully notice when one character uses another character's first name as their middle name, and yet another uses it as their last.

sunkuwan

@Grant

I have a dozen different nicknames on my workplace alone.
At work: From best friends, friends, normal colleagues, supervisors and even the big boss lady. All different.
In my hometown, when I was a kid, the adults just called me my fathers nickname with the addition of "junior"
I had a different nickname in the army.
Strangely enough, no nickname in school.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Michael Loucks

@Crumbly Writer

I had one story, with well over 100 characters, where I had some fun with this. Finding another character with the same name, the MC dubs him "Alex 2". I had fun playing around with this (ex: "which Alex is that?"/"Oh, Alex 1").


I have this in real life! One of my friends shares a name with one of my sons. They became 'Josh 1' and 'Josh 2'. And that's how we refer to them.

Replies:   sunkuwan  Crumbly Writer
sunkuwan

@Michael Loucks

My niece has 2 uncles with the same name (her only uncles). Me, and the brother of my brother-in-law.
Fortunately, he is called by his nickname by everyone else, even his parents. So she calls him Uncle [nickname].

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
richardshagrin

@shinerdrinker

Grin: Silent, controllable but uses more facial muscles


And then there is the shagrin.

Crumbly Writer

@Michael Loucks

I have this in real life! One of my friends shares a name with one of my sons. They became 'Josh 1' and 'Josh 2'. And that's how we refer to them.

In one sci-fi novel, I used 'Thing 1' and 'Thing 2' from Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat. It's a quick lighthearted way to dance around having to name creatures who are hard enough to describe in English.

My family always uses themes in selecting family names (first names for family members). One family named everyone for nature (ex: Brook, Dale), another for flowers (ex: Rose, Heather, Iris), and so on. My parents with "V"s. Us kids were Vincent, Victor, Valerie and Copy (my grandmother's nickname for Vernon III). My parents were Vernon Jr. and Vera, and my grandparents were Vernon I and Gook (short, sorta, for Gladys). We also lived in Virginia Beach, Virginia, drove a Volkswagen bus and had a dog named VIP (for Very Important Puppy). Although they've always denied consciously choosing all V names, they conceded they were forced to stop having kids when faced with naming the next boy either Vaughn or Virgil.

To top it off, My sister met someone she who attended her high school at their 30th reunion with the name of Vincent Vita, and as you can imagine, they ended up marrying, so now I'm Vincent and her husband is simply Vince.

Try working that into a story without it sounding absurd!

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Try working that into a story without it sounding absurd!


As they say, the difference between fiction and real life is that fiction has to make sense. :)

Ernest Bywater

@sunkuwan

My niece has 2 uncles with the same name (her only uncles).


I'm sure most of you have heard of the author cmsix, well, he uses that nickname because when he was born there were already 5 others in his close family with the exact same first, second, and family name - thus he was the sixth with the same first and second name with the initials of cm.

I do some genealogy research and have found many cases where the first born son of every son in a family is given the same name. Thus you can get John B has four sons and they have four sons who then have four sons. so if he lives long enough to see his great grandsons you have in those 4 generations from John B a one John B in the 2 nd generation, but 4 John Bs in the 3rd Generation and 16 John Bs in the 4th generation giving 22 with the same name at the family Christmas party.

Not_a_ID

@imnotwrong

Thing is, that can happen in real life. My father's first name was Charles. His family took to calling him by his middle name, and when he joined the Army, the called him Red for his hair color. One man, three names.


My grandfather picked up the name "Sam" during WW1 due to being the local postal worker(and only federal employee) in town. It stuck with him for the next 70 years, and still persisted after his death), even though it never appeared on any government records.

He had friends and co-workers who never knew that his legal name wasn't actually Sam.

Not_a_ID

@sunkuwan

I have a dozen different nicknames on my workplace alone.

So many places someone could take that....

But I guess so long as you're not sharing any of those names with others, you might be safe enough. 😎

evilynnthales

@Crumbly Writer

Try working that into a story without it sounding absurd!


Know someone whose wife has a younger brother and sister that are married to each other.

Yes, brother and sister are married. Legally. They even have kids.

It sounds so strange, but it's not their fault...

Girl (A) and Boy (B) fall in love and get married. At the wedding they make the mistake(?) of introducing her widowed father to his single mother. A year later the happy couple become step-siblings when their parents get married to each other. I assume much yelling was involved, but I've never actually met any of them.

Replies:   AmigaClone  Not_a_ID
AmigaClone

One of my best friends growing up in Brazil had the same first name as his father and two younger brothers. Depending on the situation they were either called by the first and middle names, just the middle name, or in the case of the father what would translate as "big ...".

AmigaClone

@evilynnthales

Just think of the confusion if the parents in question had another child (C) :). Girl (A) and Boy (B) would both be half siblings to Child (C).

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
oyster50

"Dan" is easy to type. When I started writing, I did three stories with 'Dan' as the main character, then something popped in my brain and I brought stories together into my Smart Girls universe. Everybody calls the Dan 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 in the stories.

It seems to work, and it's a quirk that occasionally gets discussed in the stories.

Replies:   richardshagrin
StarFleet Carl

@AmigaClone

Girl (A) and Boy (B) fall in love and get married. At the wedding they make the mistake(?) of introducing her widowed father to his single mother. A year later the happy couple become step-siblings when their parents get married to each other. I assume much yelling was involved, but I've never actually met any of them.


Just think of the confusion if the parents in question had another child (C) :). Girl (A) and Boy (B) would both be half siblings to Child (C).


Actually, I know someone who's had that happen. The two children were both in their early 20's, parents had both married young (or at least had kids early), so the mom was only in her late 30's. The first generations kid was in my grade at school, the parents kid was two years behind me. It was funny because Vic (in my grade) would call Jeff (two years younger) his uncle - which was correct. Jeff would get a kick out of saying, this is my brother and my sister, his wife.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Switch Blayde

George Foreman named all five sons George.

George Jr.
George III ("Monk")
George IV ("Big Wheel")
George V ("Red")
George VI ("Little Joey").

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

George Foreman named all five sons George.


And one of his daughters is named Georgetta.

Michael Loucks

@Crumbly Writer

In one sci-fi novel, I used 'Thing 1' and 'Thing 2' from Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat. It's a quick lighthearted way to dance around having to name creatures who are hard enough to describe in English.


In AWLL, Jesse calls Jennifer and Josie 'Mom One' and 'Mom Two' :-)

richardshagrin

@oyster50

"Dan" is easy to type.

It would be just as easy to type And and Nad as Dan. And DNA also uses the same letters.

Reluctant_Sir

@Crumbly Writer

I think the V theme would be fun to write into a story.

"But...Vernon, doesn't that get confusing?"
"Very!"

My family was more George Forman-esque. The father is Charles, the sons were Charles M., Charles B., Karl (Charles in German) and Charlene.

Then there was me, I came in between Charles M. and Charles B. in age, but I was the result of an affair and was named David. Gee... that helped me fit in.

As far as the name thing goes, I am actually using that as a low-key, ongoing joke in my current story.

Jack is the MC. He meets Jake, a grand-father type figure who has a security chief, Dave. Dave finds Jack a security chief named Dean. When Jack gets a girl, Dean finds the girl a bodyguard named Deb.

Jack is the only one that things it is at all strange.

Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

Know someone whose wife has a younger brother and sister that are married to each other


One diverging branch off of my family tree in the late 19th Century had a Father, son, and daughter all married into the same group of siblings. The opposite side of the family tree also has (19th Century) examples of a parent's second marriage happening to coincide with a sibling of the 2nd spouse marrying a child of the remaining parent. (It also doesn't help in one case, where 1st wife and 2nd wife(after the first died) both had the same first name)

Can't even claim it's a local anomaly either, as they lived over 1,000 miles away from each other and I am the closest known relation to both groups.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl


Just think of the confusion if the parents in question had another child (C) :). Girl (A) and Boy (B) would both be half siblings to Child (C).

Actually, I know someone who's had that happen.


It happened with the group I found in my family tree as well. But at least for me, they're (distant) cousins, not aunts/uncles.

Edit: Also not uncommon was Brothers A and B marrying Sisters(from another family) C and D.

Or Brother and Sister E and F marrying Sister and Brother(from another family) G and H.

Both versions of that seems to have happened multiple times on my own "direct line." Sometimes in back to back generations

Replies:   PotomacBob
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

George Foreman named all five sons George.

George Jr.
George III ("Monk")
George IV ("Big Wheel")
George V ("Red")
George VI ("Little Joey").

Technically, the positional titles (Jr., IIIrd, IVth) aren't to relate sequential order, but generational order. Thus if you have five children all named George, the first would be George Jr, but the rest would all simply be "George", with no distinctions. George Jr's son would be George III, but that name couldn't be applied to any other of the many George Children. Thus if "Monk" had a child named "George", he'd only be George Jr, not George IV or George VII.

But then, George simply named his kids whatever he wanted, with little regard for how they'd deal with the name, the implications or the appropriateness of the titles.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

George simply named his kids whatever he wanted, with little regard for how they'd deal with the name, the implications or the appropriateness of the titles.


On his website, Foreman explains, "I named all my sons George Edward Foreman so they would always have something in common. I say to them, 'If one of us goes up, then we all go up together, and if one goes down, we all go down together!'"

Switch Blayde
Updated:

The name should be consistent when using a dialogue tag.

In my first novel, I have a character named Rocco. Most people called him Rock while some Sarge, etc. Those were nicknames/titles people called him in dialogue. But when Rocco spoke and needed a dialogue tag, it was always "Rocco said."

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

The name should be consistent when using a dialogue tag.

In my first novel, I have a character named Rocco. Most people called him Rock while some Sarge, etc. Those were nicknames/titles people called him in dialogue. But when Rocco spoke and needed a dialogue tag, it was always "Rocco said."

If everyone has their own name for the character, then clearly, the narrator does too.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

The name should be consistent when using a dialogue tag.


However in Redsliver's 'Magic is Gross' stories the characters have dialogue tags reflecting their personas at the time they utter the dialogue. In the circumstances I think it's the right choice.

AJ

PotomacBob

@Not_a_ID

Also not uncommon was Brothers A and B marrying Sisters(from another family) C and D.


Describes two of my aunts and their husbands. The resulting offspring (2 each) were Double First Cousins. When one of the husbands died after two children, and aunt remarried and had more children, the children of the second marriage were half-siblings to children of the first marriage. Under the law in that state, the double first cousins were more closely related than were the half siblings.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@PotomacBob

Under the law in that state, the double first cousins were more closely related than were the half siblings.


There is a special situation where double first cousins are genetically siblings. For this to happen, the parents of the double first cousins would need to consist of two pairs of identical twins.

PotomacBob

@Michael Loucks

So what are the alternate words to use instead of "chuckling" or "giggling"? "Laughing" doesn't quite have the same connotation.

PotomacBob

@sunkuwan

OSL states


Who?

Replies:   sunkuwan
robberhands
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Tittering and snickering.

BlacKnight

@PotomacBob

So what are the alternate words to use instead of "chuckling" or "giggling"? "Laughing" doesn't quite have the same connotation.


It's not that "giggled" or "chuckled" (or, for that matter, "laughed") are intrinsically bad words to use. It's that they need to be used sparingly. It's far too easy to overuse them and have your characters come off as ditzy airheads. (Especially if the stuff you have them giggling is not as funny as you think it is.) Most of the time, dialogue tags should just be "said". Or nothing at all.

Switch Blayde

@BlacKnight

Most of the time, dialogue tags should just be "said"


Not "ask" if it's a question?

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Not "ask" if it's a question?

There are a number of well-known authors, Stephen King for one, who are adamant that 'said' is the only dialogue tag authors should use.
I'd be like you (if I agreed with that principle) and ask why 'asked' and 'replied/answered', at least, should not used be too.

Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

who are adamant that 'said' is the only dialogue tag authors should use.


I used to only use "said." And then one day I changed the dialogue tags for questions to "asked." Now "said" for a question looks funny to me.

Some would argue he's saying the question. I also ran into problems when the dialogue is worded as a question, but the character isn't really asking a question.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

I also ran into problems when the dialogue is worded as a question, but the character isn't really asking a question.

"What's the problem!" I say, "A rhetorical question without a question mark is a statement the speaker says."

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
evilynnthales

@PotomacBob

On a related note...

Something else that drives me crazy in a story is when the author goes:

I already used the words "dick", "penis", "pole", "rod", "cock", and "shaft", so this time I'll use "member". After all, I don't want to seem unimaginative!

I get it, you don't want to use the same word over and over in your story... but wording is naturally consistent. The MC isn't going to think a different word every time she looks at a penis. He/She will use at most two or three.

On the same note, use the appropriate words for the character. If he/she doesn't use cuss words in their thoughts/speech normally, then he/she should think "penis" not "dick". Obviously this isn't a hard rule, but it's something to remember. Ignoring it should be a choice, not an accident.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@BlacKnight

It's not that "giggled" or "chuckled" (or, for that matter, "laughed") are intrinsically bad words to use. It's that they need to be used sparingly. It's far too easy to overuse them and have your characters come off as ditzy airheads. (Especially if the stuff you have them giggling is not as funny as you think it is.) Most of the time, dialogue tags should just be "said". Or nothing at all.

It's especially important to be realistic with your choice of attributions. It's virtually impossible to 'laugh' while speaking. You can giggle, lightly, but it extends the time needed to convey simple concepts. Chuckling works, short of, because like giggles, they tend to be short, lasting only as long a few short words. But again, if two people are constantly laughing, you've gotta question whether they're high on something, or just insecure simpletons.

Certain authors always jump all over me with both feet whether I assert this, but evidence (largely anecdotal, but based on a large number of successful authors) demonstrates that while readers recognize "said" attributions, it doesn't stop them in their tracks the way that other attributions do (mainly because the reader has to parse what the hell the action has to do with the dialogue). Thus 'said' is largely invisible to readers. Thus it's fine to use other attributions, but limit how often you use them, and think before blindly throwing them into dialogue.

For what it's worth, many of us prefer 'action attributions', where you stop the dialogue to show the speaker doing something, rather than using 'he said'. This not only helps pace the dialogue, and gives readers a sense of what's happening amongst the speakers, but it's also a nice change of pace from the constant barrage of 'he said'/'she said'/'he guffawed'/'she giggled'.

Replies:   PotomacBob
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Not "ask" if it's a question?

There are a number of well-known authors, Stephen King for one, who are adamant that 'said' is the only dialogue tag authors should use.
I'd be like you (if I agreed with that principle) and ask why 'asked' and 'replied/answered', at least, should not used be too.

I'll qualify that. I personally have no problem with "he asked", but I do when it's used repeatedly (say during an interview, or an interrogation). While 'said' is largely ignored, the same isn't true for 'asked', so you've got to watch how often you use it. Like most things, it's enough to only use it every now and then, instead of each time someone asks a question, as you're only reminding readers that a specific person is asking the question. However, interspersing the occasional 'he asked' with plenty of 'he said's will make your story much easier to read.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

"What's the problem!" I say, "A rhetorical question without a question mark is a statement the speaker says."

Then again, there's always the ol' interobang, if you can manage to find it anywhere to include in your text. 'D

robberhands

@Ross at Play

There are a number of well-known authors, Stephen King for one, who are adamant that 'said' is the only dialogue tag authors should use.

Like so many things, it's purely a matter of personal preferences. If I read "he said" more than three times within the same dialogue, I'm more than just a little annoyed, and if it's a story heavy on dialogues, I'll probably drop it.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

However, interspersing the occasional 'he asked' with plenty of 'he said's will make your story much easier to read.

I presume your main point here is that perhaps no more than one-third of paragraphs in a two-person exchange of dialogue need attributions at all, just enough to remind readers which side of the ping-pong table the ball is on. I agree with that and that a smattering of 'asked' in amongst mostly 'said' should not then burden readers.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
BlacKnight
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Not "ask" if it's a question?


I didn't say "always". I'm not taking Steven King's position here. I didn't even say you shouldn't use "giggled", just that you should use it sparingly, and with awareness of what it does to the tone of the dialogue.

Think of dialogue tags like spices. They flavor the entire conversation, adding a little bit can go a long way, and you want to be especially careful about how much of the really strongly-flavored ones you put in. "Said" is a very bland one. "Asked" and "replied" are a little more strongly flavored. "Giggled" is a pretty intense one. You can put in a lot of "said" before people start going, "Hey, this conversation tastes like 'said'," but you need be more cautious with "giggled".

And even "said" can be overused. If you've got a back-and-forth between two characters, you don't need to tag every line, and it does start to get obtrusive when you do. An occasional action-attribution to remind people whose turn it is is plenty. If you're good at character voice, you may not need to tag it at all, though I prefer not to rely on that.

And in particular, tags like "giggled", "chuckled", "laughed", and so on are like the laugh track on a sitcom. If it's actually funny, you don't need it; your audience will fill in the laughter themselves. If it isn't, all it does is point up that you think you're being funny when you're not.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Not_a_ID
Switch Blayde

@BlacKnight

And in particular, tags like "giggled", "chucked", "laughed"


I thought the post about giggling wasn't using it as a dialogue tag, but having characters giggling all the time. As to using "giggled" as a dialogue tag, I'm against it. This is from Writer's Digest:

First, dialogue cannot be smiled, laughed, giggled, or sighed. Therefore, this example is incorrect:

"Don't tickle me!" she giggled.

You can't giggle spoken words. You can't laugh them or sigh them or smile them, either.


The article also says:

If you need an attribution, use said. If you must use something different for the occasional question, you could throw in "asked" for variety, but not too often.


So this person believes if the dialogue is a question and you need a dialogue tag, "said" is preferable to "asked."

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

While 'said' is largely ignored, the same isn't true for 'asked'

I can see the principle that 'said' should usually be preferred because it's "invisible" to readers, but I'm not so sure that seeking invisibility is always best. Does it depend on the story and/or the situation within a story?

My gut feeling is that it is usually best when the intention is to drive the plot of the story, and that's probably most authors most of the time. But ... I cannot get my head around any blanket prohibitions on using alternatives. I wonder whether for some authors some of the time those would be desirable to help develop characters.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sunkuwan

@PotomacBob

Ordinary sex life.

Replies:   PotomacBob
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Not "ask" if it's a question?


Logic and sense has nothing to do with habits from early training. I try to write as i would talk and if I'm recounting and event to another I'd say something like '... then George asked Fred ...' and not use the word 'said' in that situation.

I also find when you have a group together and one asks a question by using 'replied' you make it clear they're answering the question, while following with another speaker using 'said' could mean they're saying something different and it isn't a reply to the question.

Mind you, when you write in the present tense the use of the word 'said' isn't at all common, but 'say' is.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Ernest Bywater

'... the George asked Fred ...'

The "the" before a name, is that a typical American way of speaking? I learned UK English and whenever I read such an expression it always seems wrong to me or at least strange.

robberhands

@Keet

The "the" before a name, is that a typical American way of speaking?

You should ask the Donald.

Replies:   Keet
Ernest Bywater

@Keet

typo, sue me - corrected

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@robberhands

You should ask the Donald.

Duck? /s

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ross at Play

@Keet

The "the" before a name, is that a typical American way of speaking?

It's not typical of Australians, which EB is. I suspect a typo for what was intended to be 'then'.

Keet

@Ernest Bywater

typo, sue me - corrected

Still, I see the same regularly. I don't believe they are all typos.

Ernest Bywater

@Keet

Still, I see the same regularly. I don't believe they are all typos.


I very rarely edit my forum posts or check them after typing them - thus I often have typos, the most common being teh for the, sue for use, nad for and, ti for to, and often have letters missing due to not hitting the keys hard enough.

Replies:   Keet
Keet
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


I very rarely edit my forum posts


Oh, I didn't mean in forum posts, I see it in stories to. That was why I was wondering if it was a typical American thing or maybe just street language. Typos in forum posts don't bother me much.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Keet

Oh, I didn't mean in forum posts, I see it in stories to.


If you see that sort of bad grammar or typos in any of my stories please let me know - exception being UK spelling as against USA spelling.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Ernest Bywater

If you see that sort of bad grammar or typos in any of my stories please let me know - exception being UK spelling as against USA spelling.

Thank you for confirming that it is bad grammar. If I spot it in one of your stories I will let you know.

sunkuwan

@Keet

I made a threat some months ago, because I couldn't figure out if it was correct english in a weird way. Especially because I found it in stories with otherwise very good grammar

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Dominions Son

@Keet

@robberhands

You should ask the Donald.

Duck? /s


Trump/ POTUS

Replies:   Keet
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

First, dialogue cannot be smiled, laughed, giggled, or sighed. Therefore, this example is incorrect:

"Don't tickle me!" she giggled.


And yet it is perfectly understood by all readers as being shorthand for "Don't tickle me! she said, giggling.

I think the article is giving poor advice.

AJ

Keet

@Dominions Son

Duck? /s

Trump/ POTUS

I got that, I was just being sarcastic (/s == /sarcasm)

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

"Don't tickle me!" she giggled.

And yet it is perfectly understood by all readers as being shorthand for "Don't tickle me! she said, giggling.


Do you really want to assume a reader understands the "shorthand" intended?

You're changing what a dialogue tag is. All the dialogue tag is is to identify who is speaking.

PotomacBob

@Crumbly Writer

For what it's worth, many of us prefer 'action attributions', where you stop the dialogue to show the speaker doing something, rather than using 'he said'.


Could you please provide an example?

Switch Blayde

@Keet

The "the" before a name, is that a typical American way of speaking?


Funny you should ask that. The first line of my new novel (as of now) is:

The boy sat on the ground behind Cactus Point High School, leaning against the dumpster with knees raised.

I had to remove the "the" I had before "Cactus Point High School." When I first wrote the sentence is was simply "the high school." When I named the school I forgot to remove the "the" until reading it.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  REP
Switch Blayde

@PotomacBob

For what it's worth, many of us prefer 'action attributions', where you stop the dialogue to show the speaker doing something, rather than using 'he said'.

Could you please provide an example?


Joe slammed his hand on the table. "Get out of here!"

Instead of:

"Get out of here!" Joe said.

Replies:   Reluctant_Sir
PotomacBob

@sunkuwan

Thank you. I mistakenly thought it was a person.

Reluctant_Sir

@Switch Blayde

"Get out of here!" Joe yelled angrily, slamming his hand on the table.

Just because. :)

Replies:   Switch Blayde  REP
Switch Blayde

@Reluctant_Sir

"Get out of here!" Joe yelled angrily, slamming his hand on the table.


Do you really think those extra words adds anything?

Also, by putting the action BEFORE the dialogue, you hear the anger in his voice. When you put it after the dialogue, you find out he's angry after you read the words.

Replies:   Reluctant_Sir
PotomacBob

@awnlee jawking

Can dialogue be "snarled"?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Do you really want to assume a reader understands the "shorthand" intended?


No 'want' involved. It doesn't exactly require the intellectual processes of Sherlock Holmes to work it out.

You're changing what a dialogue tag is. All the dialogue tag is is to identify who is speaking.


No change, IMO - 'she' is clearly identified as the speaker. There's no law against including more in the text before/between/following dialogue than just the attribution.

eg "Time for tea," said Mrs Blakely, putting the kettle on.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I presume your main point here is that perhaps no more than one-third of paragraphs in a two-person exchange of dialogue need attributions at all, just enough to remind readers which side of the ping-pong table the ball is on. I agree with that and that a smattering of 'asked' in amongst mostly 'said' should not then burden readers.

That is what I intended, but more specifically, I'd probably go with a 30%/70% "asked"/"said" attribution for questions, just enough so readers understand that they're looking for answers, but not so much that the 'asked' becomes repetitious. Of course, if they only ask one questions, then ask away, but in most cases, "said" is a more reliable choice than the alternatives.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I can see the principle that 'said' should usually be preferred because it's "invisible" to readers, but I'm not so sure that seeking invisibility is always best. Does it depend on the story and/or the situation within a story?

These guidelines are often stated as definitive rules, but they're not. The key is, don't get lazy and watch how often you do things by rote. Although "said", like vanilla, is pretty mild, it will become obnoxious if used repeatedly. However "chortled" becomes wearisome after only the second use, and "giggled" after the third in a LONG chapter.

But for all that I preach about using "said", I actually use quite a variety of attributions (I should look up the percentages of each in a typical dialogue just for giggles (but not during discussions)).

If you have a two person point/counterpoint dialogue, then you don't need many attributions, just an occasional one to remind readers who's speaking at the given time. If you have more than two, the same applies as long as its point/counterpoint by two, but whenever you introduce a third, identify who it is. But even then, there's such a thing as using too many attributions, especially for a extensive dialogues, which is why the action attribution comes in handy, as it breaks up the monotony, but more importantly, it slows the reader down, giving them a chance to absorb what's been said before they start arguing once again.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Mind you, when you write in the present tense the use of the word 'said' isn't at all common, but 'say' is.

"You don't said?" he queried, while his obnoxious girlfriend giggled hysterically.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Still, I see the same regularly. I don't believe they are all typos.

Muscle memory often damns us all. Ernest has a history of type "hte" for "the" and "sue" for "use", but most of us have gotten used to it, and it's easily enough cleaned up during editing. Here on the Forum, we're not quite as formal about the proper spelling as we are in print.

Ernest: "If I was used every time I mistype "sue", then nothing much would change."

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

For what it's worth, many of us prefer 'action attributions', where you stop the dialogue to show the speaker doing something, rather than using 'he said'.

Could you please provide an example?

I wanted to get a real-world example, rather than making one up on the fly and then having people attack it. Here's one from my next story:

"That's why I'm glad to be starting fresh."

"There were just too many bad memories there." Al leaned over, taking Myi's hand and lifting it to his lips and kissing it. "Though they were mixed with happy adventures, trusted friendships and decent people I'll never let go, as long as we live."

This segment follows a long discussion between various people, but here, after Myi points out how stressful events have been, Al pauses (the benefits of using actions instead of speech) and comforts his wife. That's an 'action attribution', since the attribution consists of an action in a separate sentence, rather than merely a noun and a verb standard attribution.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I had to remove the "the" I had before "Cactus Point High School." When I first wrote the sentence is was simply "the high school." When I named the school I forgot to remove the "the" until reading it.

Another thing that authors do that annoys me (including myself) is authors who use "the the".

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

Can dialogue be "snarled"?

Not often, or the reader will suspect your character just had a tooth extraction. Once a chapter may be too much, but as an added emphasis, most readers will understand the usage.

Reluctant_Sir

@Switch Blayde

By itself, no. But we are playing and picking at nits here.

I can see myself using any of the three versions depending on the scene, the flow at that point in the story.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Reluctant_Sir

But we are playing and picking at nits here.


Isn't that what always happens to long threads on this forum? The train of thought gets completely derailed and we delve in the minutia? Especially considering that with this being a global forum, we're never going to agree on anything?

(Other than Ross is annoying, as CW mentions?)

These guidelines are often stated as definitive rules, but they're not

Ross at Play
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl

Especially considering that with this being a global forum, we're never going to agree on anything?

(Other than Ross is annoying, as CW mentions?)

Wrong! I don't agree with that one: I'm annoyed.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


No change, IMO -

eg "Time for tea," said Mrs Blakely, putting the kettle on.


Yes, a change. In your example, "said" is the dialogue tag. The other stuff is what she's doing while talking.

What you believe is you can merge "she said, giggling" into "she giggled." You've replaced the tag "said" with the tag "giggled" assuming the reader converts it to "said, giggling." I actually believe the reader would do that (speaking while giggling), but why do it that way?

helmut_meukel

@Keet

The "the" before a name, is that a typical American way of speaking? I learned UK English and whenever I read such an expression it always seems wrong to me or at least strange.


It's UK English, as used in the names of many pubs:
The George & Dragon; The George and Dragon.

I read a book with "the George" in its title (can't remember the full title).
In this book "The George" is used as a synonym for "dragonfighter".

HM.

Replies:   Keet
helmut_meukel

@Switch Blayde

You're changing what a dialogue tag is. All the dialogue tag is is to identify who is speaking.


This assumes it's meant as a dialogue tag.
In this situation – he is tickling her – there is no dialogue tag necessary to identify who said "Don't tickle me!"; 'she giggled' may be just a description of her reaction to his tickling.

HM.

Replies:   madnige  Switch Blayde
Keet

@helmut_meukel

It's UK English, as used in the names of many pubs:
The George & Dragon; The George and Dragon.

I read a book with "the George" in its title (can't remember the full title).
In this book "The George" is used as a synonym for "dragonfighter".

Your example has an implied "Pub" or "Inn" after the name (i.e. The George Pub") which is obvious through the context. What I was referring to was simply "the" before a name without an implied addition after the name. I learned UK English and from that I think the prefix is wrong or at least it sounds wrong. Ernest confirmed that. I am referring to the occurrence in stories, not in forum posts where typos are trivial.

Ernest Bywater

@Keet

I learned UK English and from that I think the prefix is wrong or at least it sounds wrong. Ernest confirmed that. I am referring to the occurrence in stories, not in forum posts where typos are trivial.


I was taught that the use of the word 'the' in a name is for titles of some sort as in The President of the USA, or the name of something like The USS Enterprise, and it's not part of a person's name. However, there are the odd times when what is a person's name is actually a title.

Many people call a low level runner a 'Gopher' as in 'go for this or go for that'. In some organizations the lowest level runner of errands is called George and referred to as The George - in this context it is not a name but it's a title. However, this is a very rare type of situation and I doubt it's what Keet is listing as a problem.

In a related way I've noted a number of US authors who use the word that when they should use than and the same ones often use than when they should be using that. The times I've seen it done it's obviously intended as the misuse is consistent through the story. I do wonder if it's a result of a specific education program in one part of the USA, but I don't have enough of a sample to make any clear judgement on it.

Replies:   Keet
Keet
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


I was taught that the use of the word 'the' in a name is for titles of some sort as in The President of the USA, or the name of something like The USS Enterprise, and it's not part of a person's name. However, there are the odd times when what is a person's name is actually a title.


Thank you for that explanation. That's how I learned it. I also noticed the than-then-that errors in several stories (not yours as far as I remember) but those are to me obvious misspellings where the "the name" puzzled me.

Replies:   Dominions Son
madnige

@helmut_meukel

The dialogue tag argument has been grumbling along for decades, I remember it from the 1970's and it was not new then. It's even been named, after a (possibly apocryphal) book of alternatives to 'said': said-bookism. There are lots of articles about it on the 'net.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

These guidelines are often stated as definitive rules, but they're not.

Perhaps those who state 'only use said' as a definitive rule consider that part of "showing"? Do they actually mean they prefer to show an action in circumstances where others would tell with an alternative to said?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

I actually believe the reader would do that (speaking while giggling), but why do it that way?


If you believe that the reader will in fact understand it the way it was intended, why not?

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Dominions Son

@Keet

but those are to me obvious misspellings where the "the name" puzzled me.


I don't think it's all that puzzling, at least not in stories recent enough to have been written using a word processor.

The most likely explanation is that the story was originally written using a title or description "the man in blue", but the author gave the character a name (I'll use Fred) late in the story then did a global search and replace of "man in blue" with Fred. Then the author forgot to go back and look for cases of "the Fred".

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I admit I'm in a minority here so I can't criticise suthors who write 'said, giggling', but I think 'giggled' is more evocative. IMO, although not of the same ilk as a fight scene, 'giggling' is an action and by default benefits from succinctness of verbiage ;)

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Keet

Just to confuse you, there are a few instances where native English speakers would use 'the'. For example, the Ukraine, the Congo. I recently read an article by a 'writing expert' expressing the opinion that usage is wrong and should be dropped.

AJ

Keet

@awnlee jawking

For example, the Ukraine, the Congo. I recently read an article by a 'writing expert' expressing the opinion that usage is wrong and should be dropped.

Thank you, this once more confirms that what I thought was wrong or sounded wrong actually is wrong.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Keet

@Dominions Son

then did a global search and replace


I can see that happening and it is a very plausible explanation.

awnlee jawking

@Keet

I vaguely recall this subject being discussed in a previous topic. I suggest you don't try writing 'Bronx' without the definite article preceding it ;)

AJ

Not_a_ID

@Ross at Play

I'd be like you (if I agreed with that principle) and ask why 'asked' and 'replied/answered', at least, should not used be too.


Quipped, queried, retorted and the list goes on, as well as other modifiers such as "innocently," "jokingly," "mirthfully" and so on.

That being said, the "bog standard" of "said" should be the one normally getting used even if it gets a bit repetitive, in this case, reaching for the thesaurus can be a bad thing.

Not_a_ID

@BlacKnight

And in particular, tags like "giggled", "chuckled", "laughed", and so on are like the laugh track on a sitcom. If it's actually funny, you don't need it; your audience will fill in the laughter themselves. If it isn't, all it does is point up that you think you're being funny when you're not.


....Or the character thinks they're being funny at the least.

Not_a_ID

@sunkuwan

I made a threat some months ago, because I couldn't figure out if it was correct english in a weird way. Especially because I found it in stories with otherwise very good grammar


There is a minor precedent for "the/The" before a name, but that is reserved for when the name itself is being used as though it were a title in its own right.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

And yet it is perfectly understood by all readers as being shorthand for "Don't tickle me! she said, giggling.

I think the article is giving poor advice.


I think I would probably render it as:

"Don't tickle me!" she exclaimed between giggles.


Sure the other way is a short cut, and achieves brevity, but that brevity comes at a cost all the same.

Replies:   REP
Not_a_ID

@Switch Blayde

What you believe is you can merge "she said, giggling" into "she giggled." You've replaced the tag "said" with the tag "giggled" assuming the reader converts it to "said, giggling." I actually believe the reader would do that (speaking while giggling), but why do it that way?


The thing about this example in particular is it also provides a chance for character exposition. Some people will loudly bellow and potentially become violent even. (Even the women) Others will quietly protest what is going on.

While another might be so under the thrall of the involuntary laughter/squirm response to be unable to gather enough air to achieve much, so their protest may be more of a gasping type response "between giggles."

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

That being said, the "bog standard" of "said" should be the one normally getting used even if it gets a bit repetitive, in this case, reaching for the thesaurus can be a bad thing.

I agree that the "bog standard" 'said' is usually best.

My point was that I'm inclined to distinguish between statements, questions, and replies to questions. For me, the bog-standard attribution for questions is 'asked' and for answers is 'replied'.

I wouldn't use them with every question and reply. Firstly, readers don't need the speaker named in every paragraph with dialogue to keep track of who is currently speaking, and secondly, some paragraphs can name the speaker as performing an action instead in an attribution.

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

... and by default benefits from succinctness of verbiage ;)

I always suspected you were a closet minimalist. :-)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

Just to confuse you, there are a few instances where native English speakers would use 'the'. For example, the Ukraine, the Congo. I recently read an article by a 'writing expert' expressing the opinion that usage is wrong and should be dropped.


It is an informal use, so good luck killing it. And to build on its use as a title, this illustrates one such form of it. "The Congo" is called such because there is only one. In that sense it is a variant of somebody talking about "The President" where the speaker assumes it is understood by others present as to which President the speaker is talking about.

Ditto for "the house," "the school," "the city," "the church" and "the(/that) bastard" among others.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

For example, the Ukraine, the Congo. I recently read an article by a 'writing expert' expressing the opinion that usage is wrong and should be dropped.

Doesn't that technically depend on the literal meaning in the original language? How many readers would know that for 'Ukraine' and 'Congo'? I wouldn't be bothered if the 'the' was dropped for those two.

I looked up 'Ukraine' at dictionary.com. Interestingly, every 'contemporary example' they provided did not have 'the' while every 'historical example' did.

Did this "expert" express an opinion on The Hague and the Netherlands? I'd always use 'The/the' with both of those.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  awnlee jawking  Keet
Not_a_ID

@Ross at Play

I would regard that kind of use of 'the' as technically correct when the naming word is actually an adjective. But then, how many readers would know that 'Ukraine' and 'Congo' are adjectives in their original language.


In some of those cases, it probably is more that the writer was aware of it, and took steps accordingly. At least at some point in the chain, others probably just did "monkey see, monkey do" for whatever their respective reasons were. Although that would explain why only certain specific locations also tend to be associated with "the" while others are not. For example someone talking about "the France" would get funny looks all around while "the Congo" wouldn't phase more than a few.

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I always suspected you were a closet minimalist. :-)


Aw, a smiley. You DO care!

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I looked up 'Ukraine' at dictionary.com. Interestingly, every 'contemporary example' they provided did not have 'the' while every 'historical example' did.


The Ukraine used to refer to a vast area, transcending current national boundaries and encompassing much of what nowadays is Russia. That a small piece of it has been formalised into a country, called Ukraine, adds to the confusion.

Did this "expert" express an opinion on The Hague and the Netherlands? I'd always use 'The/the' with both of those.


No, they didn't.

AJ

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

For example someone talking about "the France" would get funny looks all around while "the Congo" wouldn't phase more than a few.

Note. I was revising the words you quoted as you were writing your reply.

I agree it is a matter of common usage rather than any fixed principle. Neither 'the Congo' or 'Congo' would phase me but not writing 'The Hague' or 'the Netherlands' would.

REP

@evilynnthales

but wording is naturally consistent


Word choice is usually affected by the setting. The word you would use when out drinking in a bar would probably be considered inappropriate in a church setting.

Word usage is also part of character development. Using inappropriate language in a given situation can be used to show the character is insensitive or just doesn't give a damn.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@Switch Blayde

Yeah! That is how a lot of grammatical errors find their way into well-written stories.

REP

@Reluctant_Sir

Which works best:

1) defining the emotions related to the scene before presenting the dialog. The reader can visualize the character's mood before reading the dialog.

2) defining the emotions relate to the words after the dialog. The reader reassesses the dialog after the words are read to put the words into context.

Personally, I favor 1.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

I see that a lot. Context usually indicates the author meant 'then the' or 'that the'. It's that muscle memory striking again complicated by seeing what you expect to see when editing.

REP

@Switch Blayde

but why do it that way


To me said implies a clearly stated sentence. Giggled, chuckled, and other words imply the sentence is broken up by the giggling, chuckling, etc.

REP

@Not_a_ID

Sure the other way is a short cut, and achieves brevity


In an earlier thread, the general consensus was to eliminate unnecessary words. That discussion would support using 'she giggled' instead of 'she exclaimed between giggles'

Ross at Play

@REP

In an earlier thread, the general consensus was to eliminate unnecessary words. That discussion would support using 'she giggled' instead of 'she exclaimed between giggles'

I suggest the aim of eliminating unnecessary words is equally applicable for formal and informal writing.

I'm comfortable with 'she giggled' instead of 'she exclaimed between giggles' for informal writing but not formal writing.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@REP


In an earlier thread, the general consensus was to eliminate unnecessary words. That discussion would support using 'she giggled' instead of 'she exclaimed between giggles'


If the words are needed in order to communicate information not otherwise present, then those words cease to be "unnecessary" in nature. Unless of course the extra details themselves are not desired. So it then becomes an author discretion call on if the information is relevant in some way.

Replies:   Ross at Play  REP
Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

(Other than Ross is annoying, as CW mentions?)

Hey! Don't go putting words insulting others into my mouth. Instead, do like everyone else, and quote them directly from my multiple posts so there's no question that I said them. 'D

For the record, though, Ross is incredibly helpful in many instances, but he does tend to get caught up in meaningless minitia (like his endless ngrams) just like the rest of us.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Yes, a change. In your example, "said" is the dialogue tag. The other stuff is what she's doing while talking.

What you believe is you can merge "she said, giggling" into "she giggled." You've replaced the tag "said" with the tag "giggled" assuming the reader converts it to "said, giggling." I actually believe the reader would do that (speaking while giggling), but why do it that way?

The main difference between dialogue tags (attributions) and action attributions is the element of time. In your example, the added commas help, since they add a small time lag between Mrs. Blakely saying "it's time for tea" and her putting the kettle on (or between saying something then then giggling about it).

However, you have a more significant time delay by posting the action in a separate sentence, thus the action stops, and narrator describes what the characters are doing, which allows the reader to pause, absorb what's been said, before the back-and-forth rapid fire discussions resume. That's why the action attributions are often a welcome relief from the constant dialogue tags, because they provide a break from unending dialogue. As such, I'd even suggest authors specifically use them after each significant point, so readers have the proper time to consider the points raised, rather then rushing on and potentially losing them in the other unimportant details being discussed.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Perhaps those who state 'only use said' as a definitive rule consider that part of "showing"? Do they actually mean they prefer to show an action in circumstances where others would tell with an alternative to said?

Having the narrator say "said" is in no way showing by anyone's accounting. You show by letting someone's actions or display of emotions what's not explicitly stated. In my earlier example, the 'action attribute' (where Al comforts his spouse) is showing their close affection for one another in a way that "Al said, comforting his spouse" wouldn't.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Then the author forgot to go back and look for cases of "the Fred".

"The Fred in Blue". I like it. I can picture an entire series of children's stories all about the continuing adventures of "The Fred in Blue". Now when it gets reduced to "The the in blue" is when you completely lose it!

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

There is a minor precedent for "the/The" before a name, but that is reserved for when the name itself is being used as though it were a title in its own right.

I had an extensive discussion with my editors of an AI who only identifies itself as "The One". Does that mean, subsequently, that its official name is "The One", "the One" or merely "One"? We still haven't successfully resolved the issue, even many years after the first book's release.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

If the words are needed in order to communicate information not otherwise present, then those words cease to be "unnecessary" in nature.

That is the implied meaning of "unnecessary" for those who adhere to that style, i.e. there is no loss of information or nuance.

For example, this is how I would probably write the sentence I just quoted:

If the words are needed to communicate information not otherwise present they cease being "unnecessary".

Contrast that with your next sentence:

Unless of course the extra details themselves are not desired.

The word 'themselves' could be removed from that sentence without a loss of meaning, but I'd still consider it "necessary" because it's adding emphasis to 'the extra details'.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Word choice is usually affected by the setting. The word you would use when out drinking in a bar would probably be considered inappropriate in a church setting.

You're right. In a bar, you'd typically say "the ... the bitch!" whereas in a church setting, your drop the unnecessary "the"s, leaving it merely as "that bitch". 'D That accounts for the many recitations of the basic 'that demon rum' sermon by ministers and pastors.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

In an earlier thread, the general consensus was to eliminate unnecessary words. That discussion would support using 'she giggled' instead of 'she exclaimed between giggles'

Sorry, but the earlier discussion was about dropping specific unnecessary words (either passive, repetitive or words like "that" which don't add anything to a given sentence), but reducing an entire description of a woman giggling between sentences is just ... criminal for an author to commit.

In the first, the passages become easier to read, as the 'passive phrases' have been removed (which only weaken the sentence), while in the second, the entire context of the giggling is lost.

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Having the narrator say "said" is in no way showing by anyone's accounting. You show by letting someone's actions or display of emotions what's not explicitly stated. In my earlier example, the 'action attribute' (where Al comforts his spouse) is showing their close affection for one another in a way that "Al said, comforting his spouse" wouldn't.

Would you answer my point again, please? Either my intended point was unclear or you missed its meaning.

I was not suggesting 'said' is showing. I was more asking if alternatives to it are telling. If so, an author would avoid telling by using 'said' when they have nothing to show, and an action verb when they do have something to show.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
helmut_meukel

@awnlee jawking

Just to confuse you, there are a few instances where native English speakers would use 'the'. For example, the Ukraine, the Congo. I recently read an article by a 'writing expert' expressing the opinion that usage is wrong and should be dropped.


This corresponds for some but not all countries with the usage in German except German has der (m), die (f), das (n):
It's die Ukraine, der Kongo, die Niederlande, die Schweiz, die Türkei, der Jemen, der Oman, der Irak, der Tschad.
However Frankreich, England, Schottland, Großbritannien, Holland, Italien, Spanien, Portugal, Griechenland, Russland, Finnland, Schweden, Norwegen, Dänemark, Polen,...

Persien, but der Iran.
It was die Tchechoslowakei, but die Tschechei is regarded derogative, the new PC name is Tschechien, die Slowakei however is PC.

HM.

Replies:   oyster50
richardshagrin

@Not_a_ID

other modifiers

"This knife is sharp" Tom Swift said cuttingly.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

I had an extensive discussion with my editors of an AI who only identifies itself as "The One". Does that mean, subsequently, that its official name is "The One", "the One" or merely "One"?

'The' is usually lower case but it depends on the who/whatever coined the name, or the literal meaning of what became a name a by common usage.

For example, both the Ukraine and the Netherlands both meant roughly the outer edges. That's not specific enough for a capitalised 'The' to become part of the name. But The Hague was originally a very specific area enclosed by a hedge.

I suggest your AI sounds egotistical enough that they'd definitely have chosen to name themselves 'The One'.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Ross at Play

Did this "expert" express an opinion on The Hague and the Netherlands? I'd always use 'The/the' with both of those.

"The Hague" is the English form of "Den Haag" which is a name in itself (including the "The"). The same for (Kingdom of) the Netherlands which is the English form of (Koninkrijk) der Nederlanden. Without the prefix "Kingdom of" it should be a capitalized "The". I'm from The Netherlands and there is no Dutch form of "The Netherlands" except the single form of "Nederland", which would translate to "The Netherlands".
In short, for these two examples "The" is an inextricable part of the name, not an incorrect used prefix which I was referring to in my initial question.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@richardshagrin

"This knife is sharp" Tom Swift said cuttingly.

"Wow, a Tom Swift Tom Swifty," he noted Tom Swiftishly.

Keet

@Ross at Play

That's not specific enough for a capitalised 'The' to become part of the name. But The Hague was originally a very specific area enclosed by a hedge.

You are partially right. In a sentence it can be "the Netherlands" but if listed as a name it should be "The Netherlands" or simply "Netherlands". It's a bit of a historical "problem" since it started with the country being a collection of areas: "the netherlands". That changed a lot over the years. Once formalized it became the country "Nederland". So all 3 forms can be correct. I think the never used but probably most correct form should be "Netherland" (no s) since in Dutch is also the single form "Nederland", but that's just my opinion.

Replies:   Ross at Play
oyster50

@helmut_meukel

Helmut-

One entertaining (to me) finding of my years in Germany was finding out that it was die Fraulein, neuter, when sitting on a park bench in the summer observing passers-by clearly indicated that such was NOT the case.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
Ross at Play

@Keet

In short, for these two examples "The" is an inextricable part of the name

Do you have any references to support that.

I checked both dictionary.com and Wikipedia. Both were specific that the correct forms in English are 'The Hague' but 'the Netherlands'.

Replies:   Keet
Ross at Play

@Keet

In a sentence it can be "the Netherlands"

I assumed it was understood I meant how it is written in the middle of a sentence - with nothing else influencing your choice of format.

Switch Blayde

@helmut_meukel

"Don't tickle me!"; 'she giggled' may be just a description of her reaction to his tickling.


Only if "she" is capitalized.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

If you believe that the reader will in fact understand it the way it was intended, why not?


Because it takes them out of the dialogue. They have to interpret the tag, whereas "said" is invisible and all they hear is the words.

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

Just to confuse you, there are a few instances where native English speakers would use 'the'. For example, the Ukraine, the Congo.


The Bronx. It's Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island, but the 5th borough is "the Bronx."

Keet
Updated:

@Ross at Play


Do you have any references to support that.

I checked both dictionary.com and Wikipedia. Both were specific that the correct forms in English are 'The Hague' but 'the Netherlands'.


I meant that the "the" prefix is part of the name, not necessarily the capitalized "The". Although personally I think it would be better without a prefix.

awnlee jawking

@Keet

I meant that the "the" prefix is part of the name, not necessarily the capitalized "The".


I've noticed more and more the 'the' being dropped, with journos writing only 'Netherlands'.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play  Keet
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

with journos writing only 'Netherlands'.

IMO, the standard of grammar in online articles by British newspapers is pretty bad. The BBC is not much better. :(

Ross at Play

@Keet

Although personally I think it would be better without a prefix.

I'm resigned to the fact that history is a capricious bitch. I don't use 'the Netherlands' because it's logical, but because it just is.

Replies:   Keet
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I was not suggesting 'said' is showing. I was more asking if alternatives to it are telling. If so, an author would avoid telling by using 'said' when they have nothing to show, and an action verb when they do have something to show.

Oops! Sorry. Yeah, I'd agree with that then. "Said" is pretty much the ultimate in telling, as you're TELLING the reader who is speaking. In most instances, the reader can figure out who's speaking easily enough, only only needs a simple reminder (in a two-person dialogue) every now and then.

Keet

@awnlee jawking

I've noticed more and more the 'the' being dropped, with journos writing only 'Netherlands'.

I don't usually read foreign journos so I wouldn't know, but it's a start. Now if they would also drop the last s too it would be perfect. After all it's "Nederland" in Dutch so "Netherland" in English is fine.

Funny thing: A literal translation would be Lowlands because the "neder" part means low. We do have a very big yearly open-air music festival called Lowlands though.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Keet

@Ross at Play

I'm resigned to the fact that history is a capricious bitch. I don't use 'the Netherlands' because it's logical, but because it just is.

And of course you should, it was just my personal opinion on what would be better.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


I admit I'm in a minority here so I can't criticise suthors who write 'said, giggling', but I think 'giggled' is more evocative. IMO, although not of the same ilk as a fight scene, 'giggling' is an action and by default benefits from succinctness of verbiage ;)


I agree with what you say here. However, some words inherently exhibit vocal aspects of speech and some don't. Thus I now tend to have things like 'Fred shouted - Fred whispered - Fred replied' and others where the word clearly indicates an understandable spoken response. I also use other words like giggling etc. as an additional description, thus I'll write something like 'Mary giggled, and said, ...' or 'Mary giggled while saying ...' because some words don't immediately indicate clearly understandable spoken words but they're needed to paint a better picture of the scene or person's actions.

edit to add: I will also sometimes have a reply / response that is physical and not verbal such as - George responded by giving Harry 'the bird.' - Mary giggled in reply, and walked away. - George chuckled in response as he turned and walked away. and similar type actions.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

"This knife is sharp" Tom Swift said cuttingly.

or "This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" Tom said sharply.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I suggest your AI sounds egotistical enough that they'd definitely have chosen to name themselves 'The One'.

The AI wasn't that egotistical. When asked who he was, it simply replied "I am the one who brought you all here", so the humans simply accepted that his 'name' was "the One", and have referring to him as such ever since. But back when I first started on book 2, I had to reread the passage multiple times figure out whether to use an upper or lower case "the".

Further complicating matters, the crew at large refers to the AI as "the One", while the Captain of the ship treats him as just a member of the crew, calling him "One" (showing they have a more personal relationship than the other crew members).

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Keet

After all it's "Nederland" in Dutch so "Netherland" in English is fine.

You are assuming that the name 'Netherlands' in English is a translation of the Dutch name 'Nederlands'.

I suggest it's the result of applying English grammar and usage when forming a name from two very-old words in the English language, 'nether' and 'land'.

It may be different in Dutch, but in English the singular 'land' suggests one, well-defined border, while the plural 'lands' would be used if the border is undefined, as in low lands.

Replies:   Keet
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

The AI wasn't that egotistical

I can see your dilemma and, FWIW, I agree with your choices.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I can see your dilemma and, FWIW, I agree with your choices.

The bigger problem is, in book 3, more of the crew follow their captain's lead in dropping the "The", but with so many characters, it's hard to recall who's using the formal name ("the") and who's using the informal (just plain "One").

Oh, the many travails we lay before our feet and then decry the insurmountable obstructions! 'D

Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

From https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

"The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London.

"Ukraine is both the conventional short and long name of the country," she says. "This name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and Constitution."

The use of the article relates to the time before independence in 1991, when Ukraine was a republic of the Soviet Union known as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, she says. Since then, it should be merely Ukraine.

There is no definite article in the Ukrainian or Russian languages and there is another theory why it crept into the English language.

Those who called it "the Ukraine" in English must have known that the word meant "borderland", says Anatoly Liberman, a professor at the University of Minnesota with a specialism in etymology. So they referred to it as "the borderland".

"After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians probably decided that the article denigrated their country [by identifying it as a part of Russia] and abolished 'the' while speaking English, so now it is simply Ukraine.

"That's why the Ukraine suddenly lost its article in the last 20 years, it's a sort of linguistic independence in Europe, it's hugely symbolic."

The Germans still use it but the English-speaking world has largely stopped using it.

There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with "the", such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands, Philippines and Bahamas.

But according to several authoritative sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World and the US Department of State, only two countries, The Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article.

The two Congos are officially Democratic Republic of the Congo and Republic of the Congo. And the longer, official name for Netherlands is Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Ernest Bywater

One thing that I find not only annoying, but sometimes leads to confusion with the reading is when an author places an adverb after the verb. The sad thing is I've seen this done in a few different stories by different authors, so I'm not sure if there's a deeper root cause for it or only lazy writing by adding the adverb as an after thought.

helmut_meukel

@oyster50

Fraulein, neuter


For men of any age the German words are always masculine: der Knabe, der Bub(e), der Junge, der Mann, der Herr, der Vater.
For women it's mostly neuter: das Mädchen, das Fräulein, das Weib, but die Frau, die Dame, die Mutter.

HM.

Ernest Bywater

Part of the discussion on using the word the in relation to places like Ukraine runs into the differences between a name of a country and the name of a region. Some names are both and the only way to differentiate between the country and the region is to use the before it, but not everyone gets the usage right.

I live in an area known as the Riverina as it's a region designation. Within the region is a city called Wagga Wagga and another called Albury, yet there is an expanded area around both known, respectively, as the Wagga Wagga area and the Albury area which includes a few smaller townships near them. The same applies to many other places in the world.

Keet

@Ross at Play

You are assuming that the name 'Netherlands' in English is a translation of the Dutch name 'Nederlands'.

Isn't it? It seems to me all countries name themselves and other civilized countries use that name, a close translation or a previous historical name (Germany anyone?). You don't make up a name for another country.

It may be different in Dutch, but in English the singular 'land' suggests one, well-defined border, while the plural 'lands' would be used if the border is undefined, as in low lands.


Thus since the Netherlands has a very well defined border it should be Netherland. Thank you for another argument in favor of my personal, although unofficial, favorite name Netherland.

Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

should officially be referred to

Thanks, but I've no interest in official names for informal writing. I would want a widely accepted common usage instead.

robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

One thing that I find not only annoying, but sometimes leads to confusion with the reading is when an author places an adverb after the verb.

What's confusing about it? Are you still hung up on your personal grammar rule that an adverb must come before the verb it modifies?

Ross at Play

@Keet

I know I won't change your opinion, but I'll clarify my point.

The words 'nether' and 'land' have existed in English since the tenth century with their current meaning. If describing an area of low land it is natural to say 'the nether lands' rather than 'nether land'. When English grammar for creating names is applied to the translation of your country's name the result is 'the Netherlands'.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Ross at Play

@robberhands

What's confusing about it? Are you still hung up on your personal grammar rule that an adverb must come before the verb it modifies?

I was about to write a post beginning with, 'You've made this claim before and it's just not true. There's no reason adverbs cannot be placed after the verbs they modify'.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Thanks, Switch, for that informative post. Though, I've never referred to Gambia with a definitive article, and I can't recall ever hearing it referred that way either in print articles or on the news, so that last tidbit is completely new to me. I'm wondering whether it (the definitive use for Gambia) is a dated reference in those individual documents, or everyone in America has been using it incorrectly my entire life (or at least as long as Gambia has been a country)?

Keet

@Ross at Play

Thank you for that clarification, makes sense.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Thus since the Netherlands has a very well defined border it should be Netherland. Thank you for another argument in favor of my personal, although unofficial, favorite name Netherland.

You've convinced me too. Goodbye "the Netherlands", you were good to me, but our time is past. Hello "Netherland", it looks like we'll have a much friendlier time of it. (Now if I can only convince my readers of my unorthodox usage.) My spellcheck program hates it!

Replies:   Keet  Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

The words 'nether' and 'land' have existed in English since the tenth century with their current meaning. If describing an area of low land it is natural to say 'the nether lands' rather than 'nether land'. When English grammar for creating names is applied to the translation of your country's name the result is 'the Netherlands'.

So you decide we (all English speaking countries) should always translate the name, and then individually reconstruct the name based upon their English equivalents, rather than simply accepting a foreign countries own word for their country? (Frankly, I've never understood why we continue to refer to Deutschland as "Germany". It's use seems pointlessly archaic.)

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

So you decide we (all English speaking countries) should always ...

I suspect the Netherlands ended up as a bit of an anomaly because 'nether' and 'land' were pre-existing words in English.

And British imperialists were incredibly insensitive to names of places used by those in other countries. How the heck did they come up with names such as Peking, Bombay, Madras, Munich, Germany, ...? They were a world power - then - so what others thought was irrelevant.

Maybe after Brexit the Deutschlanders should exact some revenge and start calling the capital of Little Britain 'Long Gone'.

Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

What's confusing about it? Are you still hung up on your personal grammar rule that an adverb must come before the verb it modifies?


While I recognize that the process of putting adjectives and adverbs after what they modify is common in some European languages it's not done that way in English - why that came about is not something I've been able to find out. Nor is it a personal grammar rule.

In some languages it's correct to say the house blue and the car fast in English the correct way is to say either the blue house or the house is blue and the fast car or the car is fast.

Take the Swift type comment earlier:

"This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" Tom said sharply.

That makes good English. However, in the examples I see and am complaining about they would have:

Tom said, "This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" sharply.

which is bad English and it causes you to stop a moment to make sense of it.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

One thing that I find not only annoying, but sometimes leads to confusion with the reading is when an author places an adverb after the verb.


He ran fast.
He spoke slowly.

What's wrong with them?

Replies:   REP
Keet

@Crumbly Writer

You've convinced me too. Goodbye "the Netherlands", you were good to me, but our time is past. Hello "Netherland", it looks like we'll have a much friendlier time of it. (Now if I can only convince my readers of my unorthodox usage.) My spellcheck program hates it!

I never said any one else should use Netherland. But I've changed my mind. From now on I just call it... home.

robberhands
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

... in English the correct way is to say either the blue house or the house is blue and the fast car or the car is fast.

You complained about adverbs placed after the modified verb but these are adjectives.

Take the Swift type comment earlier:

"This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" Tom said sharply.

That makes good English.

Agreed, and the adverb is placed after the verb.

Tom said, "This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" sharply.

which is bad English and it causes you to stop a moment to make sense of it.

Again I agree. An adverb without a verb is a grammatical mistake and I'm pretty sure no one will object.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

the house blue


"Waiter, a bottle of the house white please."

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
awnlee jawking

@Keet

There are lots of prostitutes in Amsterdam's red light district. Let's name the country 'land of the hos', or Holland for short ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

AJ

Replies:   Keet
awnlee jawking
Updated:

@robberhands

An adverb without a verb is a grammatical mistake and I'm pretty sure no one will object.


Is that true?

The google featured site (dictionary.com?) claims an adverb is "a word or phrase that modifies the meaning of an adjective, verb, or other adverb, expressing manner, place, time, or degree (e.g. gently, here, now, very ). Some adverbs, for example sentence adverbs, can also be used to modify whole sentences."

AJ

robberhands
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

"Waiter, a bottle of the house white please."

In your example, 'white' is part of a compound noun, "the house white'. Of course, you could argue 'white' is an adjective and the modified noun 'wine' was omitted. Either way, you merely provided a distraction to argue about something totally unrelated.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

"This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" Tom said sharply.

That makes good English.

Agreed.

Tom said, "This knife damn near sliced my finger off!" sharply.

which is bad English

I would assess that more harshly. It's not merely 'bad English'; it's flat-out wrong!

So ... the disagreement which robberhands and I have with you is not about what constitutes bad writing; it's with your description of what you consider a problem.

You defined above the problem you sometimes see with this:

One thing that I find not only annoying ... is when an author places an adverb after the verb.

That's precisely what the first example above has: the adverb 'sharply' is placed after the verb 'said'.

The mistake I would identify in the horrid second example above is that the connection between the adverb 'sharply' and the verb it modifies 'said' has been severed by the intervening dialogue.

The problem of severed connections is not limited to verbs being separated from adverbs which modify them. Misplaced commas (and other separators) can also separate nouns from adjectives which modify them, and verbs from their objects. The root cause of such errors often comes from a failure to understand what constitutes the "main clause" in a sentence and what are detours from the main clause (called "parenthetic phrases" and various other names). A common mistake is placing a comma after a verb which indicates the sentence is heading off on a detour but not using the matching comma needed to indicate the end of the detour and the resumption of the main clause.

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Correct, but that wasn't the point of EB's example, nor my reply.

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

[dictionary.com] claims an adverb is ...

You have a point.

For complete accuracy, I think robberhands should have said:

An adverb without, or with no connection to, an object it modifies is a grammatical mistake and I'm pretty sure no one will object.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

Of course, you could argue 'white' is an adjective and the modified noun 'wine' was omitted.

Please forgive this distraction to argue about something totally unrelated. :-)

I don't agree with that. However, I think there is a reasonable argument that 'white' is functioning as the noun and 'house' as an adjective.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

Please forgive this distraction to argue about something totally unrelated. :-)

If you can find someone to argue about it, feel free to do so.

awnlee jawking
Updated:

@robberhands

Either way, you merely provided a distraction to argue about something totally unrelated.


Bugger, I missed off the smiley. ;)

BTW, is Ernest confusing adverbs and adjectives? An easy mistake - I've always wondered whether the distinction is artificial.

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Bugger, I missed off the smiley.

A smiley wouldn't have saved you. I regard smileys as evil incarnate (that's an example for an adjective following a noun) and just ignore them. Something is funny or it isn't; a smiley doesn't change that.

ETA:

BTW, is Ernest confusing adverbs and adjectives?

AFAIK, Ernest never makes a mistake.

Replies:   Ross at Play  Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

While I recognize that the process of putting adjectives and adverbs after what they modify is common in some European languages it's not done that way in English - why that came about is not something I've been able to find out. Nor is it a personal grammar rule.

The only semi-authoritative reference I know is the one we discussed in the past, about the 'natural order of adjectives', but again, that reference doesn't precisely state why those words sound more natural, it only states that they do.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Some adverbs, for example sentence adverbs, can also be used to modify whole sentences.

Now that I'd like to see. Did they provide any examples? Otherwise, I can't imagine how you'd modify an entire sentence.

Ex: Fastly the fireman run into the burning house, hoping to save to family's one-year-old puppy, Snappy Doodle!

Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

"The President" where the speaker assumes it is understood by others present as to which President the speaker is talking about.


As a standard usage in the US "The President" always refers to the current occupant of the White House.

Any reference to a former US president will be in the form of President .

Of course in an international context, you run into the issue of the president of which country.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Ross at Play

@robberhands

evil incarnate (that's an example for an adjective following a noun)

They do exist but are so rare that my Oxford Dictionary has a note "(usually after a noun)" for the adjective 'incarnate'.

Some other examples are 'attorney general' and 'sister-in-law'.

REP

@Not_a_ID

If the words are needed in order to communicate information not otherwise present


The point of the thread was to omit words like 'that' which added nothing to the scene.

Example: He saw that I had added unnecessary words.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

@AJ
... for example sentence adverbs, can also be used to modify whole sentences.


I can't imagine how you'd modify an entire sentence.

Easily, I imagine.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

My spellcheck program hates it!


Most spellcheckers will let you manually add words to the spellcherer's dictionary. Useful for authors writing science-fiction or high fantasy where they may have to make up a lot of words.

Not_a_ID

@Keet

Isn't it? It seems to me all countries name themselves and other civilized countries use that name, a close translation or a previous historical name (Germany anyone?). You don't make up a name for another country.


Persia was only called Persia because the Greeks called it such. Iran is closer to what "the natives" called it, but still not quite there.

Not_a_ID

@robberhands

A smiley wouldn't have saved you. I regard smileys as evil incarnate (that's an example for an adjective following a noun) and just ignore them. Something is funny or it isn't; a smiley doesn't change that.

If you say so. 😈

REP

@Crumbly Writer

about dropping specific unnecessary words


That is true, but it also addressed minimizing the number of words used to say the same thing.

Personally, I don't care for 'she giggled'. However, I can visualize a difference between 'she exclaimed between giggles' and 'she giggled'. In the first, there would be short sections of understandable passages separated by giggles. In the second, the words and giggles would be so intermixed that it would be difficult to understand the speaker.

richardshagrin

"The" issue: I live in the United States of America. If "the" is wrong, why does "I live in United States of America" sound strange? Using USA doesn't help, I would say I live in the USA. Maybe if I lived in Union of South Africa my choice would be different, but it still sounds better to me to use the before the name of the nation.

Replies:   REP
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Dominions Son


As a standard usage in the US "The President" always refers to the current occupant of the White House.


Well, then you have the Mormons who have a President as head of their faith. So a Mormon talking about "The/the President" could either be talking about their version of The Pope, or they could be speaking about POTUS. ;)

Further complications come in the form of Educational Institutions as well as Corporations where their organizational head also has the title of "President" and may be referred to by title rather than name. Which isn't to mention all those corporate VP's running around where I am sure protocol would have you "promote" them to President when you're not calling them "Vice President" instead. So some of them can be getting referenced as such in the right context as well. So I guess Mormon's get a real ambiguity prize depending on how they discuss a particular President, they could be discussing any one of 4 or more entirely different people.

Edit: forgot Mormons have Stake Presidents as well(they preside over the bishops who preside over individual congregations), and then each "Mission Area" has a "Mission President" of its own, and I think there are a couple other positions they have which are Presidencies as well(As the Presiding Authority for that matter--so they're literally Presidents). So the count goes even higher for them.

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@Ernest Bywater

why that came about is not something I've been able to find out


I suspect the reason is separating the adverb from the verb it modifies could lead to confusion if the sentence were to have two or more verbs and the adverb could modify either.

I have a habit of putting the adverb at the end, but lately I've placed it where the position seems to give the best emphasis to the sentence.

REP
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


He spoke slowly.


Nothing, wrong about either. I think EB is talking about having words between the verb and adverb.

For instance: He spoke about running down the hill slowly.

What is being done slowly, speaking or running.

REP

@richardshagrin

That is due to English using articles to introduce nouns, titles, etc. Other languages may not use articles in that manner, so "I live in United States of America" might sound natural to them.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

Now that I'd like to see. Did they provide any examples? Otherwise, I can't imagine how you'd modify an entire sentence.


Finally, the balloon landed.

"Finally" is the adverb.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Not much different from 'The balloon finally landed.

ETA - I have a sentence in my story that I think would be a good example of what you mean

Afterward, they snuggle.

robberhands
Updated:

@REP

For instance: He spoke about running down the hill slowly.

What is being done slowly, speaking or running.

Do you seriously think it's doubtful which verb 'slowly' modifies in this sentence?

ETA: Actually, there is only one verb in this sentence. That's 'spoke. 'Slowly' is part of a noun phrase, which is 'running down the hill slowly', the object of your sentence.

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Further complications come in the form of Educational Institutions as well as Corporations where their organizational head also has the title of "President" and may be referred to by title rather than name.


Again convention in the US in such cases is that unless you are speaking within the organization on matters of the organizations work, you would use "the President of...".

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Keet

@awnlee jawking

There are lots of prostitutes in Amsterdam's red light district. Let's name the country 'land of the hos', or Holland for short ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Good one! Although Amsterdam and the red light district has lost most of it's glory due to immigration and politics.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Dominions Son



Further complications come in the form of Educational Institutions as well as Corporations where their organizational head also has the title of "President" and may be referred to by title rather than name.



Again convention in the US in such cases is that unless you are speaking within the organization on matters of the organizations work, you would use "the President of..."


Formal writing and informal speech are different things. In informal speech, it is more typical (at least "in the Mormon cultural footprint") to get "President (Name)" with no "the" prefacing the title when a name is used, but you CAN still occasionally encounter "the President"(case indeterminate in this case, as we're talking informal speech) in conversation, normally after context has been given, but not always(although for various flavors of president the Mormons have the more extended title such as "the Stake President" or "the Mission President" is slightly more common when referencing by title alone). Ie. They'll name which one they're speaking about at the start and drop to title or name only from there, depending on personal preferences/relationship to said person.

Which leaves openings for others to eavesdrop or join in later without that context being immediately available to them, although subject matter at hand should help more than a little. ;)

Crumbly Writer

@REP

What is being done slowly, speaking or running.

Neither. What's being done slowly is discussing what's being done slowly.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Finally, the balloon landed.

"Finally" is the adverb.

Technically, the adverb doesn't modify the sentence, it only modifies the phrase, which just happens to be the only content of the sentence, but it has nothing to do with modifying entire sentences other than a random length of the sentence.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Good one! Although Amsterdam and the red light district has lost most of it's glory due to immigration and politics.

Not to mention the abundance of both online porn and online dating (cough, cough, hookup) sites.

Replies:   Keet
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

it has nothing to do with modifying entire sentences other than a random length of the sentence.

It's more accurate to say that adverbs can modify entire clauses, rather than sentences, but that is not limited by the length of the clause. For example:

Surprisingly, a large proportion of America's population refuses to believe the fact obvious to all others that the president of their country is a compulsive liar.

That is a sentence with an adverb, 'Surprisingly', modifying a clause consisting of a subject, 'a large proportion of America's population'; a verb, 'refuses'; and a direct object, 'to believe the fact obvious to all others that the president of their country is a compulsive liar'.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ross at Play


Surprisingly, a large proportion of America's population refuses to believe the fact obvious to all others that the president of their country is a compulsive liar.



That is a sentence with an adverb, 'Surprisingly', modifying a clause consisting of a subject, 'a large proportion of America's population'; a verb, 'refuses'; and a direct object, 'to believe the fact obvious to all others that the president of their country is a compulsive liar'.


Unsurprisingly, a plurality of Americans have concluded that the last several Presidents have all been compulsive liars. Some just happen to be more blatant than others.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

Not to mention the abundance of both online porn and online dating (cough, cough, hookup) sites.

Nah, that had nothing to do with the deterioration of Amsterdam and specifically the red light district. When I was young it was an adventure just strolling down the streets in the RLD, standing to the back wall in the Banana Bar having no money to participate in the fun. That whole leisurely ambiance is gone now.

PrincelyGuy

And here I thought that being a liar was a requirement for politicians and statisticians. It is just that some are better at making the lies sound like truths than others.

Replies:   Keet
richardshagrin

@Not_a_ID

compulsive liars

Its a choice, not a compulsion.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Keet

@PrincelyGuy

And here I thought that being a liar was a requirement for politicians and statisticians. It is just that some are better at making the lies sound like truths than others.

For politicians you also have to have very low ethics and integrity but know to hide that very well.

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

Unsurprisingly, a plurality of Americans have concluded that the last several Presidents have all been compulsive liars. Some just happen to be more blatant than others.

I find it terrifying that so many Americans cannot see how different this president's dishonesty is to all those before him.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Its a choice, not a compulsion.

Exactly, most politicians choose to lie when it's convenient. However, a certain current nationwide office holder seems incapable of uttering the truth, preferring to invent entire facts on the fly, while decrying the validity of 'truth' as a general concept. Now that's compulsive, when you lie just because you can't resist lying.

All politicians lie, but some are better at it than others. If you can't believe anything someone says, then nothing they say is any more important than "kerfuffle" statements.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I find it terrifying that so many Americans cannot see how different this president's dishonesty is to all those before him.


I think part of it is that his lies are so blatant in most cases that it isn't that they believe them. It's that they don't take him seriously. As such, while they're agreed that "it is a problem" they don't think it is end-of-the-world scale significant either.

In some respects, they probably prefer the blatantly transparent liar over the one that it takes an army of dedicated investigators to catch.

Ie. He's "a villain" you expect to find in a B or C list quality comedy production. So seeing people running around like he's Bram Stoker's Dracula personified is laughable.

Replies:   REP
Switch Blayde

@Keet

Although Amsterdam and the red light district has lost most of it's glory due to immigration


Why would immigration affect it?

Replies:   Keet
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I find it terrifying that so many Americans cannot see how different this president's dishonesty is to all those before him.


Trump is just an obvious liar. The others were better at it. LBJ lying about the Vietnam war? Tricky Dick (Nixon)? Obama lying through his teeth about his promises for Obamacare?

They all lie. Trump just sucks at it.

Replies:   PotomacBob
REP

@robberhands

Actually, there is only one verb in this sentence.


You are mistaken. The speaker is talking about his act of 'running down the hill', so the example has 2 verbs.

The point of the example is if a writer places the adverb after the verb the writer wants the adverb to modify, then if text is placed between the adverb and its verb there can be an ambiguity. In this particular case, the reader can interpret 'slowly' to be 'slowly spoke' or 'slowly running'.

Replies:   Ross at Play
REP
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


I think part of it is that his lies are so blatant in most cases that it isn't that they believe them.


During the 2016 campaign, a TV interviewer asked a man in the parking lot of a Trump convention about whether he believed Trump was a liar. The man's response was, Yes I believe Trump lies, but he wouldn't lie to us his supporters. I think most of Trump's supporters know he lied to them to get elected, but their pride will not allow them to admit it.

Many of Trump's current supporters believe he is doing the proper thing in areas that interest them. They don't care if he is doing improper things in areas that are of little or no interest to them. They don't realize the impact his actions will have on them in the future.

A good example of that is Trump's tariff war. I doubt that most of his supporters understand the negative impact his war will have on their lives is an increase in the cost of the merchandise they will buy.

Trump's tax bill is also a good example of the negative impact his actions have on the general population. It has been presented as being a good thing for big business and the average person will see lower taxes. I think my family falls into the average category. I asked my tax man how Trump's bill will affect my 2018 taxes. He told me that if they were applied to my 2017 taxes, I would have had to pay an additional $800 in taxes. Those of us living in the US need to be prepared for their 2018 taxes being higher than expected.

Replies:   PotomacBob
Ross at Play
Updated:

@REP

In this particular case, the reader can interpret 'slowly' to be 'slowly spoke' or 'slowly running'.

No! There's no ambiguity in your example. 'Slowly' modifies the closest object it can potentially modify, which is 'running'.

Robberhands is correct in stating that 'running down the hill slowly' is a 'noun phrase ... the object of your sentence'.

He's also (technically) correct in stating:

there is only one verb in this sentence. That's 'spoke'.

I'll just state this; I've explained this point often enough here already. Within the sentence, 'running' is functioning as the head of a noun phrase. Within that noun phrase, it is functioning as a verb which may be modified by an adverb.

evilynnthales
Updated:

@Ross at Play

I would really prefer to avoid politics except in threads about politics.

EDIT: this should be a general thread reply, not Ross specific :)

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@evilynnthales

EDIT: this should be a general thread reply, not Ross specific :)

Thanks for making that correction.

Good luck on your request, BTW. Methinks it's a much-traveled road to nowhere. :(

Keet

@Switch Blayde

Why would immigration affect it?

There is an overabundance of a certain religion that takes a dim view at places like the RLD. Amsterdam has become extremely leftist int the last 10-15 years, even this week a new very leftist mayor was selected, straight against the wishes of the majority of the citizens. Well we all know how the left supports uncontrolled immigration, even if a large part is criminal which is a real problem in Amsterdam.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Keet

new very leftist mayor


London's got one of those.

Blimp representing baby Trump wearing a nappy? No problem.

Epidemic of violent crime? Dum de dum de dum.

AJ

PotomacBob

@REP

Many of Trump's current supporters believe he is doing the proper thing in areas that interest them. They don't care if he is doing improper things in areas that are of little or no interest to them.


How does that differ from avid supporters of any politician? I remember a quote about a U.S. Senator from Georgia (I think 1940s or 1950s) in which one person said - "He's a crook." ANd the other said, "Yeah, but he's our crook."

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

How does that differ from avid supporters of any politician? I remember a quote about a U.S. Senator from Georgia (I think 1940s or 1950s) in which one person said - "He's a crook." ANd the other said, "Yeah, but he's our crook."

That reminds me of the longstanding Daley administration in Chicago. Everyone knew he was as crooked as a three-dollar bill, but his patronage system actually accomplished things for great numbers of people (as opposed to the current patronage system, which promises the sun and moon, but only delivers for the rich and powerful funding campaigns, while betraying the voters at every turn). That was back in the days when individual votes actually counted, and politicians could be counted on to pay the working stiff for those votes!

Ross at Play

@evilynnthales

Things that bug you and/or throw you out of the story.

I recently learned a new homophone that I would probably have got wrong before.

I wanted to write '... rebellion' and was sure that 'ferment' was not right. I looked up 'forment' in a dictionary, but it wasn't there, and I chose some other word.

I've just seen the correct word, 'foment', so it looks like my pronunciation and hearing have been faulty for a long time.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I've just seen the correct word, 'foment', so it looks like my pronunciation and hearing have been faulty for a long time.


Or you "got had" by someone with an accent of some type, and it subsequently "contaminated" how you understood what was being said. We often do in hearing much the same thing we do in reading, only we rarely have a chance to hit "rewind" to verify that we heard what we thought we heard.

That people also tend to accidentally say one thing while meaning something else on occasion actually makes it amazing we can communicate with any degree of effectiveness at all.

PotomacBob

@Switch Blayde

They all lie


I don't buy into the argument that all politicians lie. Assume, for the sake of argument, that the statement "Not all politicians lie," is true. Does that mean that the assertion "they all lie" is, therefore, a lie itself?
My point is that not everything that is untrue is a lie. Sometimes it is a mistake, not a lie.
I have heard lie defined as asserting something you know to be untrue to someone who has a right to the facts. Under that definition, if you utter a deliberate falsehood, it ain't a lie if the person you told has no right to the truth.
If your Significant Other asks you "Do I look fat in this dress?" - are you lying if you don't tell the truth.
Is it a lie if, when you NEED to go to a baseball game, you tell the boss your grandmother died?
What if it's something really serious? Say you're the President and somebody asks you a question, and a true response will reveal national secrets that you fear could put many people's lives in danger?

Replies:   Remus2  Crumbly Writer
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Not_a_ID

That people also tend to accidentally say one thing while meaning something else on occasion actually makes it amazing we can communicate with any degree of effectiveness at all.

In my experience, the tolerance for mispronunciations which will be understood is very much higher in English than in other languages. I think native speakers of English hear so many different accents and foreigners mangling the language we develop auto-correct circuits to process any word we hear which does not compute. For example, if we hear a short I-sound in something that is not a valid word, we'll check if substituting the closest other vowel sounds, long I- and E-sounds, produces something we do understand.

Those who do encounter many others with different accents do not do that. If you don't pronounce a word correctly they simply think it's not a valid word.

I live in Indonesia. It once took me about 6 attempts to get a taxi driver to understand the word 'Garuda'. It's not a rare word; it is the name of the Indonesian national airline! I was pronouncing it 'guh-ROO-duh'. When he finally twigged what I meant, he said it back to me correctly, 'guh-roo-DAH', as if I was a complete idiot. What I was saying did not compute. It did not occur to him that I might be trying to say the word with a very similar pronunciation and the only word which sounds remotely like what I was saying. :(

Replies:   anim8ed
Remus2

@PotomacBob

Show me the person that claims they've never lied, and I'll show you a liar. From my perspective, it's more about intent and frequency.

Ross at Play

@Remus2

it's more about intent and frequency.

I agree that intent matters most.

I've seen statements that aren't literally untrue but intended to evade the truth or create a false impression. I regard those as the moral equivalent to a lie.

I don't always accept not knowing the truth as an excuse. I've seen people conveniently avoid learning the truth and assert as fact when they know they cannot be sure. I see no real difference in those.

anim8ed

@Ross at Play

Reminds me of an early date with my Filipina wife. She asked to see the movie all-a-DEEN. It took a few minutes to figure she meant a-LAD-in. The difference being between English and Tagalog pronunciation and syllable emphasis.

Ross at Play

@anim8ed

Reminds me of an early date with my Filipina wife.

There are some weird things that happen in Asia. A common takeaway lunch for office workers in Indonesia consists of a cup of rice, a couple of spoons of some vegetable or chicken curry, and tiny packets of chili and soy sauce. That's sold on a square of waxed brown paper folded into a tetrahedron. The name of this type of meal translates as 'cat food'. I have pity for the local cats. :(

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Ross at Play

translates as 'cat food'


That reminded me of what we called 'Puppy Chow', back before they started making it complete. Chex Mix.

And everyone's favorite 'Bug Juice' ... aka Soy Sauce.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I've just seen the correct word, 'foment', so it looks like my pronunciation and hearing have been faulty for a long time.

Not an uncommon mistake. After years of using the wrong word myself, and having editors miss it entirely too, I was finally corrected by one clear-eyed editor.

Again, if you're unsure what to search for, dictionaries are utterly useless! My problem (with dictionaries) has always been that I could never spell well enough to use one, so I ended up reading dictionaries as I would a reference work instead. However, that's NOT the optimal solution! 'D

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

What if it's something really serious? Say you're the President and somebody asks you a question, and a true response will reveal national secrets that you fear could put many people's lives in danger?

Just curious, but just how many lives would a politician threaten if he actually revealed that a tax cut won't create millions of jobs?

While your clarifications are valid and warranted, it doesn't cancel out the argument that politicians, of all ilk, frequently lie simply for convenience, rather than out of malicious intent, a misunderstanding or a disregard for their constituents. Sometimes, they simply convince themselves that everyone would benefit if they simply didn't admit the truth. That creates very blurry lines which had hide virtually ANY crime!

Crumbly Writer

@Remus2

Show me the person that claims they've never lied, and I'll show you a liar. From my perspective, it's more about intent and frequency.

That's the yardstick we should ALL focus on. But instead, many simply assert that it doesn't matter a wick if their candidate lies until they're blue in the face, but they'll raise holy hell if someone they dislike mispronounces a single word!

Again, when people complain about government, they're rarely talking about politicians in general, they're just ranting about the party currently in power (or in many cases, the party which won't allow them to do whatever the fuck they want>. And that particular knife cuts in both directions, as everyone is equally at fault!

Crumbly Writer

@anim8ed

Reminds me of an early date with my Filipina wife. She asked to see the movie all-a-DEEN. It took a few minutes to figure she meant a-LAD-in. The difference being between English and Tagalog pronunciation and syllable emphasis.

She should'a just said "I wanna see the movie with that cute Arab boy!" If nothing else, you'd definitely pay more attention! 'D

Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

And everyone's favorite 'Bug Juice' ... aka Soy Sauce.

Technically, its major component is 'ink' from octopi (which gives it that distinctive jet-black color, thought the ink has no real discernible flavor itself). In case you were wondering, I owned a fish shop/restaurant for a while, and learned a HELL of a lot about what's involved with seafood!

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


And everyone's favorite 'Bug Juice' ... aka Soy Sauce.

Technically, its major component is 'ink' from octopi (which gives it that distinctive jet-black color,


While some recipes may combine octopi 'ink' with soy sauce, 'ink' is not an ingredient in soy sauce.

Soy sauce (also called soya sauce in British English) is a liquid condiment of Chinese origin, made from a fermented paste of soybeans, roasted grain, brine, and Aspergillus oryzae or Aspergillus sojae molds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_sauce

awnlee jawking

@Not_a_ID

Isn't Formenterror one of the Balearic Islands?

AJ

joyR
Updated:

@evilynnthales


Please post something authors get wrong. Things that bug you and/or throw you out of the story.

Something you wish more authors realized.


At this point it's probably off topic to actually address the original poster's question, however;

Unless I missed it nobody has yet mentioned one of the most basic errors a lot of authors make, physical impossibilities.

Whether sexual or otherwise, when describing the 'action' the author is describing and the reader (hopefully) picturing the scene. Thus a couple making love, he kneeling behind her, hands on her hips, thrusting fast and deep, then he licks her clit..... Exactly how is that possible?

Granted an orgy at a contortionists convention is going to produce some interesting positions.

Either the author just does not care for the accuracy of the scene being described, or perhaps is writing without any practical experience Either way, it's annoying.

Similarly a monumental struggle to get to a distant location, battling terrain, weather etc, but manage to stroll back to where they started in an hour or two.

[rant]

Lastly there is THE most annoying scene, between the guy and the two lesbians.

If they are not being forced, kicking and screaming, then sex with a guy isn't between two lesbians, they are bisexuals.

Or you don't see and understand why that is annoying, you are the kind of person who NEEDS a warning on their packet of peanuts, "may contain nuts".

[/rant]

AmigaClone

@joyR


Lastly there is THE most annoying scene, between the guy and the two lesbians.


What if the two women in question had declared themselves lesbians but were a little bi-curious? After the sexual encounter one or both could tell the guy that they were indeed lesbians.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@AmigaClone

What if the two women in question had declared themselves lesbians but were a little bi-curious? After the sexual encounter one or both could tell the guy that they were indeed lesbians.


I think a few lesbians would be upset at some trying to define their sexuality for them. ;)

Sometimes wanting to "spend some time with a real penis is just that, no interest exists in pursuit of a relationship beyond that. Most in that group will likely define themselves as lesbians because Men are not on their agenda for anything except "no strings sex."

Replies:   joyR
awnlee jawking

@joyR

a warning on their packet of peanuts, "may contain nuts".


If the peanuts are packed in a factory that also manufactures nut products, there is the possibility of trace contamination by nuts.

AJ

Replies:   joyR
Ross at Play

@joyR

THE most annoying scene, between the guy and the two lesbians.

Along a similar line, I dump harem and high school super-stud stories into the same class of ludricrous as lesbian conversion, even if I must concede some of the better-written ones are very popular here.

joyR

@Not_a_ID

I think a few lesbians would be upset at some trying to define their sexuality for them. ;)


I didn't, every dictionary I've ever read did that.

Sometimes wanting to "spend some time with a real penis is just that, no interest exists in pursuit of a relationship beyond that. Most in that group will likely define themselves as lesbians because Men are not on their agenda for anything except "no strings sex."


If that were the case, then two homosexual guys with a girl are just wanting to "spending time with a real pussy".....???

Oh wait, that isn't the same, is it..??

If you are celibate, you don't get to have the occasional fuck. Why? because doing so makes you a failed celibate.

Vegans don't get to have the occasional 'burger' and remain vegans, they would be failed vegans.

Lesbian = No interest in men.

Homosexual (man) = No interest in women

Bisexual = Interest in both men and women

It's not rocket science, but ignoring the meanings is a very easy way to insult a lot of people, in this case readers. Except of course those who can't comprehend the means of the words, or will jerk off to (almost) anything.

You really need to read the lesbians handbook, issued to every girl showing an interest, it states quite clearly that. "You can't have your cock and eat her too."

Replies:   Not_a_ID
joyR
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


If the peanuts are packed in a factory that also manufactures nut products, there is the possibility of trace contamination by nuts.


A stunning statement.

Exactly who would pay money for a packet of peanuts that didn't contain more than a trace of nuts?

And yes, peanuts are in face seeds not nuts. BUT:

Peanuts aren't actually a true nut; they're a legume (in the same family as peas and lentils). ... For this reason, people who are allergic to peanuts can also be allergic to tree nuts, such as almonds, Brazil nuts, walnuts, hazelnuts, macadamia nuts, pistachios, pecans, and cashews.

ETA

In the same vein, I recently spotted a container of milk with this on it. "WARNING Contains dairy product"

Douglas Adams is no doubt ammused.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@joyR


You really need to read the lesbians handbook, issued to every girl showing an interest, it states quite clearly that. "You can't have your cock and eat her too."


Which was the part about "no interest in a relationship with men" that "real, living penis" is being used as little more than a sex toy. And anybody who tells a lesbian they have to either give up their dildos or give up identifying as lesbians best watch out.

Remember you are now operating in the realm of LGBTQI+ these days and gender can now be determined based purely upon the mood a person is in at the time, nevermind their sexuality. So a lesbian who likes to occasionally "use" a flesh-and-blood penis once in awhile isn't off the table anymore.

I am fine with the old definition, I am just warning that trying to continue to "enforce" it might result in somebody getting very upset with you over disputing how they identify themselves.

Edit: as an addition, for a long time I sometimes made the bad joke of being a lesbian trapped in a Man's body. But at this point, things have been turned into enough of a "word salad" when it comes to both gender and sexuality that I think you actually could get more than a few of the LGBTQI+ to agree that it is at least possible for a woman to have "a lesbian relationship" with a man. Nevermind that should be textbook heterosexual, it doesn't "have to" be defined that way any more. If biker Bob wants to identify as a butch lesbian, he can do so, and if biker Bob gets a "lesbian girl friend" well, more power to them.

Replies:   joyR  Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@joyR

Peanuts aren't actually a true nut; they're a legume (in the same family as peas and lentils). ... For this reason, people who are allergic to peanuts can also be allergic to tree nuts


Your quote omitted the actual 'reason', that peanuts and tree nuts can have proteins in common.

Peanut allergy is far more common than tree nut allergy. So peanut allergy sufferers have more reason to be concerned about tree nut products contaminated by traces of peanuts.

AJ

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@awnlee jawking

Peanut allergy is far more common than tree nut allergy. So peanut allergy sufferers have more reason to be concerned about tree nut products contaminated by traces of peanuts.


I suspect all of these allergies cropping up are simply mother nature working to thin the herd and improve the species on her own. Think of it as evolution in action.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR

@Not_a_ID

I am fine with the old definition, I am just warning that trying to continue to "enforce" it might result in somebody getting very upset with you over disputing how they identify themselves.


It's not an 'old' definition, it's the correct definition.

I'm sure they'll grow up and get over it. Yes, I really don't care if someone 'might' get upset with me because I adhere to dictionary definitions.

How about the offence caused to me by the misogynistic belief that a lesbian actually wants anything to do with a cock? Nothing wrong with that at all, except by doing so she just became bisexual. Much like myself.

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

In the same vein, I recently spotted a container of milk with this on it. "WARNING Contains dairy product"

There's a big fight brewing in the FDA over the repeating use of the term "milk" for products which consist of extracting 'juice' from 'nuts'. The practice is clearly false, as nuts are in no way similar to 'milk', but the marketers know that no one will ever buy a product labeled as "nut juice"! However, the FDA is advancing slowly, because there is so much push back, not only from the companies, but from grocery chains and heath food fans they're now trying to gauge the public's 'temperament' on the issue first.

Though, in a universe where we're debating mind-controlling cat super villains, the idea of nuts with tits is fairly ... intriguing. 'D

joyR

@Crumbly Writer

Though, in a universe where we're debating mind-controlling cat super villains, the idea of nuts with tits is fairly ... intriguing. 'D


intriguing. Agreed. Where as a tit with nuts sounds like the punchline for a politician joke.

As for that milk container. It had a colour picture of a cow on it.

I think Darwin was right. Which means that if we protect idiots from themselves, they breed more idiots.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

And anybody who tells a lesbian they have to either give up their dildos or give up identifying as lesbians best watch out.

Sorry, but the people quoting those 'lines' are typically the lesbians themselves, as few honest lesbians have any interest in dildos, are rarely use them. However, you see them all the time in videos of Lesbians, because straight men just can't figure out WTF lesbians do!

Basic fact of nature, those who crave cock are by definition, either straight or Bi (although, admittedly, most lesbians have often spent decades trying to 'pass' as straights before finally admitting they're lying to themselves.

In the same way, lesbians run screaming when 'straight girls' want to experiment, as they see it as a complete waste of time. Why waste time 'training' someone who'll never be interested in a repeat performance. Instead, they prefer those who know what interests them and aren't into playing games (aside from the fun lesbian games, of course!).

And in the modern 'gender fluid' movement, the traditional assumptions are being further bent, rather than the LGTBQ folk wanting to accept the traditional roles. Thus you'll have openly declared lesbians 'trying out' more masculine roles. That doesn't mean they want to be men, only that they DON'T like dressing up in frilly feminine garb just to please others.

In that case, I say more power to them. People are generally willing, once they know someone's position, to allow them to 'redefine' themselves, as long as they don't continually flip-flop, deciding to be lesbian one moment and then straight the next. That's just a case of 'gender confusion', a classic straight male attack on gays and lesbians.

Note: As someone who's been at the periphery of the LGTBQ movement for most of my life, I take these things seriously. I've also spent a LONG time researching the attitudes of the people involved (it took me forever to develop an effective 'Lesdar', even though my gaydar has always been very finely tuned. Researching my A House in Disarray was a real eye-opener, as it overturned many of my previous assumptions about lesbian culture.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

I suspect all of these allergies cropping up are simply mother nature working to thin the herd and improve the species on her own. Think of it as evolution in action.

That's why I'm all for those spouting off nonsense on the internet strangling each other. Hopefully, in the end, we'll have less racist/sexist/bigoted people (and also fewer people automatically defending behaviors they really don't understand). 'D

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

That's why I'm all for those spouting off nonsense on the internet strangling each other. Hopefully, in the end, we'll have less racist/sexist/bigoted people (and also fewer people automatically defending behaviors they really don't understand). 'D

Change the first sentence to this and that's exactly what I think. :-)

That's why I'm all for [Americans shooting] each other.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

There's a big fight brewing in the FDA over the repeating use of the term "milk" for products which consist of extracting 'juice' from 'nuts'.


I have seen some places identify the fluids as Coconut Fluid and others call it Coconut Water. Because it looks like milk people have been calling it that for centuries. Once the FDA wins the war in the USA, they only have the rest of the world to fight.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer
There's a big fight brewing in the FDA over the repeating use of the term "milk" for products which consist of extracting 'juice' from 'nuts'.
@Ernest Bywater
I have seen some places identify the fluids as Coconut Fluid and others call it Coconut Water.

Coconut milk and coconut water are two very different products.

Coconut milk is produced by pressing the pulp from the inside of a mature coconut. I don't use it because it is high in fats and almost all are saturated.

Coconut water is the juice that can be poured out of a coconut. It's a refreshing and healthy drink because it contains a lot of antioxidants and the amount of fat is very low, even if most of that is saturated.

red61544

I know this will piss off a bunch of people, but the thing that bugs me most is when authors sit in this damned forum instead of writing. When I'm really into a story, I want to scream if I'm waiting for the next chapter and the author is in here discussing what bugs him about other authors! Write the story, damn it!

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

There's a big fight brewing in the FDA over the repeating use of the term "milk" for products which consist of extracting 'juice' from 'nuts'.


I use soya milk and I continue to call it that, despite the ruling by EU jobsworths.

I look forward to the day the eurocrats rule that liebfraumilch has to be renamed ;)

AJ

Replies:   red61544  Ernest Bywater
John Demille

@Ross at Play

I don't use it because it is high in fats and almost all are saturated


Maybe it's time to reevaluate your stance, the science is changing on fats and carbs. New study after study is proving that fat is good for you, especially animal fat.

Check out the book 'The big fat surprise'.

Ross at Play

@John Demille

Maybe it's time to reevaluate your stance, the science is changing on fats and carbs. New study after study is proving that fat is good for you, especially animal fat.

Thanks, but I won't be doing that.

I'm going to stick with a diet high in fats from plants and animals which live in water. The only natural plant foods with fats I do not consider beneficial are coconut and palm fruit.

I avoid margarines and some baked goods because high-heat manufacturing processes results in some fats becoming saturated.

I'm aware of mounting evidence against diets high in carbs but assume that has more to do with highly-processed carbs in modern first-world diets, rather than total carbs.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
red61544

@awnlee jawking

I look forward to the day the eurocrats rule that liebfraumilch has to be renamed


Rather than being renamed, they should have to add "We use any damned grapes we want to make this crap!"

Ernest Bywater

@red61544

When I'm really into a story, I want to scream if I'm waiting for the next chapter and the author is in here discussing what bugs him about other authors!


Boy, am I glad that doesn't apply to me, due to me completing the stories before I start to post them.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking


I look forward to the day the eurocrats rule that liebfraumilch has to be renamed ;)


Then how will I identify the good wines?

Remus2

If something about an author is not copacetic to me, I won't buy the book or otherwise read them. The last time I was forced to read a book I didn't really want to was in college.

If an author writes something you don't like, the answer is simple. Don't read the author.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Remus2

@Ross at Play

Nothing wrong with coconut milk.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/saturated-fat-types

Not all saturated fats are the same. I make copious use of coconuts.
I also avoid use of dairy products with the exception of limited cheese use.

I make coconut milk, oil, use the coconut water, and pyrolysis of the coconut shell for activated charcoal. The latter is particularly useful if your in areas of the Caribbean and South America where the water supply can be dangerous.

Ross at Play

@Remus2

Nothing wrong with coconut milk.

Thanks. That article is enough for me to stop warning people that coconut fat is mostly saturated.

I'll stick with my current choices of fats in my diet. They are keeping my LDLs low without altering my HDL much.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille

@Ross at Play

You should read the updated science about cholesterol too. Dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol and blood cholesterol has no effect and cardiac health. Too many people are prescribed statins for no benefit and a host of bad side effects.

Ross at Play

@John Demille

You should read the updated science

Thanks, but I have sources of information I rely on for my health decisions.
They do not include ANY whose funding is opaque.

StarFleetCarl

@Ross at Play

That's why I'm all for [Americans shooting] each other.


There's enough of us that do that shit every day.

Darian Wolfe

@sunseeker

As someone who uses "Little one" as a term of endearment to grown women in real life. consider yourself rasberried. ;)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

Hopefully, in the end, we'll have less racist/sexist/bigoted people (and also fewer people automatically defending behaviors they really don't understand). 'D


There would be fewer racist/sexist/bigoted people, but I doubt the survivors would be any less racist/sexist/bigoted than they already are.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@StarFleet Carl

but I doubt the survivors would be any less racist/sexist/bigoted than they already are.


Indeed, they will simply be bigoted in new and different ways.

At its core, the issue is ignorance, which means they act like idiots. And the problem with idiot-proofing things is that people continually underestimate the ingenuity of idiots.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Not_a_ID

Indeed, they will simply be bigoted in new and different ways.


Probably not, More likely to be old and similar ways.

Presuming that we are talking about mostly small groups of people, no electronic communication communication, then the tribal mentality that is currently being repressed by the PC brigade would return.

No government means no law, no tax, no church, each group will naturally be wary of others. Sexist, very probably. Bigoted, probably less so simply because of their circumstances and needs.

the issue is ignorance, which means they act like idiots.


Ignorance of what? It is patently untrue to say a primate tribe are idiots because they are not civilised like you/us. Idiots are as likely to be those trying to maintain their PC beliefs whilst everyone else is trying to find enough to eat.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Crumbly Writer
madnige

@Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

I look forward to the day the eurocrats rule that liebfraumilch has to be renamed ;)

Then how will I identify the good wines?


Simple - choose the wines that are not from the EU.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Darian Wolfe

@Crumbly Writer

My youngest daughter is about as masculine as you can be and still be female. To look at her, there's no make up no dresses or skirts and her hair is always short. She is often mistaken for a boy. At 17 she's shown no real interest in dating either way.

Due to issues in school (She has Agenesis of the Corpus Callosum) she was in counseling and being the dutiful father led me to search her computer. This led me to discover she was interested in girls which given her demeanor was no big surprise.

What concerned her mother and I is we raised her in Holy Roller Christianity which has very definite opinions about sexual relationships. We did not want to lose our daughter to suicide over emotional turmoil caused by our faith or perceived disapproval by us. I'm of Norse descent. It doesn't bother me to tell a deity to take a flying leap off Mt. Motherfucker (a spot back home) if they act against my interests. We talked with her and assured her of our love and acceptance either way. She claims she's straight and we don't push the issue. We just love her and support her goals.

What does grind my gears is one of her counselors after meeting her once tried to put her on a track for transition to male. I about blew a gasket and about went and pulled a drunk. I haven't been drunk in over 20 years, but that about did it to me (I made myself a promise that my children would never see me drunk while they were children).

I'm just not down with that shit. How in the hell is a child supposed to have the life experience to make a decision like that when most full grown adults can't? Here's a real simple test look at your genetics. if it says you're male then you're a man and if you like other men you're homosexual. If you like Men and Women you're Bisexual. If you like only women you are Heterosexual. What's so hard about that? Then you dress how you want. If people laugh at you so what?

Do you want to see something funny? It's me wearing my half-kilt which is remarkably like a skirt, except I'm a man and don't wear skirts. Fuck you, it's a skirt and I like it. I wear black knee socks with it too. But I'll be damned if I'll put lacy frills on it or wear a pink one.

I had a female Bi buddy who leaned strongly toward girls and she was heavy into the scene. She was telling me about these poor unfortunates who were pasting hair to their faces to look more masculine. I felt so sorry for those people. I haven't always liked myself but damn.

What bothers me is males working to look more feminine. Because TBH if I were to find myself kissing on someone and suddenly discovered it wasn't a girl there IS going to be violence. To me what they did was sexual assault even though they didn't use force and I would beat them like I would an attempted rapist. I know I would probably go to prison but shit happens.

I also don't like females who are trying to pass in the men's room. All she has to do is say he touched me and the man is ruined.

I had it happen on a job and I raised hell. As I told HR, you know if I strolled up into the ladies room I would leave in handcuffs. All she has to do is accuse me and I can lose my professional licensure and since it would be a sexual accusation I would lose custody of my children until it's resolved. I would be ruined. They made her stop.

anyway, there's my 2 cent's

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@joyR

the issue is ignorance, which means they act like idiots.



Ignorance of what? It is patently untrue to say a primate tribe are idiots because they are not civilised like you/us. Idiots are as likely to be those trying to maintain their PC beliefs whilst everyone else is trying to find enough to eat.


There is a world of difference between a true idiot and someone acting like an idiot. The painful part, as seen with most racists and bigots is when they deliberately choose to remain ignorant so they can continue acting like an idiot.

Replies:   joyR
Keet

Ok back to the original topic; here's my rant:

STARTING with a cast list. Personally I prefer the cast list at the end because too many times it contains spoilers. I read in some blog posts that some people immediately toss a book if it starts with a cast list. If you really need one put it at the end for reference.

Even worse: An (updated) cast list in the middle of the book, a chapter starting with a cast list. Put the damn thing at the end, it interrupts reading. If a cast list is needed up front then there's a good chance that you fell short in your character descriptions in the story itself.

Editor recognition in the most inconsistent way possible. The enormous creativity of some authors is unbelievable: EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER ends with different format of editor acknowledgement. Bold, italics, bold and italics, as a notice, as a blockquote, preceded with a horizontal line, multiple editors on the same line or over multiple lines, and every other "creative mix" you can think about. I do understand why editors are mentioned under each chapter: not every author has the luck to have an editor help with the complete book but I hate the extra lines that have nothing to do with the story, again, it interrupts reading. Just acknowledge them once, in the story details or at the and of the story, NOT every chapter.

Starting EVERY chapter with a recap of the previous chapter. Uhmm, if I forgot what the previous chapter was all about I can skip back and read as much as I want of that chapter. Artificially inflating your word count doesn't help in getting a better score ;)

Numerous author notes through out the book. Some authors really run away with this and almost seems to be chatting with their readers while writing the story. Except for the very, very rarely needed author note you should leave those out. If you think you need them, think again. It usually is to explain something you should have done in the story itself. If still needed put them in a foreword or appendix or whatever, NOT in the story. And again: it interrupts the reading flow.

Excessive use of horizontal lines in chapters. There is such a thing as a paragraph that indicates a reading block. An incidental line to mark a complete scene or time change is ok, but not 7 lines in a single chapter.

Multiple or very long epilogues. Sometimes as long as half the rest of the chapters and sometimes almost a story in itself. If you need that much text for an epilogue to clear up loose ends then your story wasn't really finished when you started the epilogue.

It may seem that I have a lot to complain about but in reality I'm grateful for all the great stories. It's obvious that some authors try to mimic presenting "real" books using a SOL system that is great but not meant to create "real" books. I also understand that a weekly posting schedule causes some things to be different from posting a complete book at once.
One thing that stands out in my rant and I fully stand behind is: everything that disrupts reading flow is bad. There are standard places for everything you want to present: foreword, prelude, prologue, epilogue, cast lists etc. and NOT spread out in the chapters themselves.

So now let the howling break loose ;)

richardshagrin

@Keet

Editor recognition

I understand when each chapter is posted separately the editor tribute added either before or after the chapter. Once the story is complete, please, please edit them so that the tribute does not interrupt the flow of the novel. Both at the beginning and the end would be overkill but acceptable. Lets say the novel has 24 chapters. The editor tribute is presented two dozen times if nothing is done to adjust the reading experience. If the story were to be presented for purchase, the repeated information would almost certainly be deleted. Please treat us SOL readers the way you would treat buyers of your work.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Keet

STARTING with a cast list. Personally I prefer the cast list at the end because too many times it contains spoilers. I read in some blog posts that some people immediately toss a book if it starts with a cast list. If you really need one put it at the end for reference.


You'd be surprised how many people complain when you put a cast list on the end. When posting at SoL my tendency, now, is to do the cast list as a separate post readers can access as they wish, while the print book versions and the e-pub versions have the lists at the back of the book for the reasons you mention.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
anim8ed

@Keet

I totally agree on cast lists / lists of characters introduced etc. If the reader needs a cast list let them make their own. If too many readers are asking for a cast list then the story probably has too many characters.

If the universe is so huge that it needs references like character lists write a separate reference volume for your universe.

Acknowledgements: In most dead tree books I have read the acknowledgements are at the beginning of the book. Thank your editors, proof readers, coffee fetchers, inspire-rs, motivators and other muses in one place and update it if needed.

Personally I think the index page text area is a good place to locate the table of contents, acknowledgements, warnings and dedications for the story.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Keet
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

I understand when each chapter is posted separately the editor tribute added either before or after the chapter.


That happens if they put the info in the story file and not the End Note. The End Note is always attached to the end of the last chapter, which is why I use it for that purpose.

Replies:   Keet
Ernest Bywater

@anim8ed

If too many readers are asking for a cast list then the story probably has too many characters.

That will depend a lot on the size of a story, a long saga with a short cast is very boring.

Replies:   anim8ed  Crumbly Writer
anim8ed

@Ernest Bywater

That is why I mentioned a reference work for longer / larger stories. It allows the reader to open the reference in a separate tab.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Keet

@anim8ed

Acknowledgements: In most dead tree books I have read the acknowledgements are at the beginning of the book. Thank your editors, proof readers, coffee fetchers, inspire-rs, motivators and other muses in one place and update it if needed.

I don't remember ever seeing an editor mentioned in a dead tree book. In most cases it's just a payed employee of the publisher that isn't recognized in the book.
That's different from here on SOL where all that work is from volunteer editors that do deserve recognition, just not at the end of every chapter because that severely interrupts reading flow.

Keet

@Ernest Bywater

That happens if they put the info in the story file and not the End Note. The End Note is always attached to the end of the last chapter, which is why I use it for that purpose.

As far as I can detect the end note moves with the last chapter thus a perfect place for editor recognition.

anim8ed

@Keet

True, at most there is a byline and that is usually in anthologies or collections.

I agree that volunteers deserve recognition. The end note is a good spot also as it keeps it at the end of the what is available to read rather than as a speed bump in the story at the end of each chapter.

Keet

@Ernest Bywater

You'd be surprised how many people complain when you put a cast list on the end.

Really? I would rather suspect that most readers skip the cast list like they apparently often do with the prologue. I know I skip them unless the author has abused the cast list to add other information that should have been in a foreword, prologue or appendix.

anim8ed

As an aside on the end note...

I find end notes that are not updated an irritation. Some authors will make a dated comment in the end note and not remove it after it is no longer pertinent.

Ernest Bywater

@Keet

Really? I would rather suspect that most readers skip the cast list


I suspect a lot of people only refer to the cast list when they think they need to. However, where I know of authors here at SoL posting a cast list as the last post to a story they've had some emails asking, in not always polite terms, why the $#@* they didn't post it earlier. That's why I think if you post it as a separate post at the start it's there for those who want to look something up, but can easily be ignored.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
StarFleet Carl

Things authors do that bother you?

Go look at Nick Scipio's Picture of the Day for the last three days. His website, his rules. But that also marks the last time I bother to read any of his work - because rather than have an open discussion, he's insulted me, one of his readers, because in his words, I'm a racist, rapist, scum.

Not_a_ID

@anim8ed

That is why I mentioned a reference work for longer / larger stories. It allows the reader to open the reference in a separate tab.


That gets complicated in some cases, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series would be a professional example. Characters move around, people die, others get promoted, while yet others lead even more colorful lives, or simply more detailed highlighting events over the course of many decades and several books in the case one major character in particular(who oddly wasn't the main character in most of the ones he turned up in).

Cast lists are snapshots in time relevant specifically to the work they are attached to. A compilation piece can be done, but there be major spoilers to be had there if you pull up the omnibus cast last for something in book 1 and incidentally learn about events many volumes later.

And in that light, the best place for a "Book 1 cast list" is with Book 1.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@Keet

I don't remember ever seeing an editor mentioned in a dead tree book. In most cases it's just a payed employee of the publisher that isn't recognized in the book.


I have seen family members get thanked, for editing even, in professional forewords. I have seen Sci-Fi authors in particular thank people for helping with various science related aspects of their work. The list goes on, but yeah, generally the people who were getting paid for what they did and only did what they're paid for? Not much authorial love for them.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
Ross at Play
Updated:

It's always interesting discussing something with somebody with a closed mind.
It's a challenge, most times very boring challenge.

I can't figure out who, if anyone, you're implying has a 'closed mind'. I do not see that in anyone contributing to this exchange.

I was only really saying I rely on information on .gov for my decisions about my health. That means I'm relying on consensus opinions about 10 years out of date. I'm OK with that. I feel reassured the motivation of those sites is that the government will spend less on health if citizens are better informed.

The problem I have with the latest research into health is that I see the food industry as no less inherently evil in its funding choices than the tobacco industry!

But I do accept the basic point others have made here. The good/bad division for fats is not simply unsaturated/saturated. The length and complexity of molecules is very significant. For example, coconut oil has much more long fats than dairy milk, that's why coconut oil is liquid at room temperature while butter is solid, and why I assume dairy fats are more likely to end up as solids on the walls of my blood vessels.

Replies:   Dominions Son
joyR
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


The painful part, as seen with most racists and bigots is when they deliberately choose to remain ignorant so they can continue acting like an idiot.


I highly doubt that any significant number of people are so intent on knowingly acting like an idiot to the extent that they wilfully remain ignorant.

Much more likely that someone's perception of their actions and beliefs brands them as ignorant and acting like an idiot. That might well be a valid perception, but is it any more valid than that of the ignorant acting idiot?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
joyR
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl


Go look at Nick Scipio's Picture of the Day for the last three days. His website, his rules. But that also marks the last time I bother to read any of his work - because rather than have an open discussion, he's insulted me, one of his readers, because in his words, I'm a racist, rapist, scum.


To be accurate, he stated you are 'scum' twice.

Kind of sad really, a guy who writes a reasonably passable story, gathers a small following, opens a pay site, takes an increasingly long time to produce each new chapter, adds an extra part late on, and somewhere along the line realises that when he finally types "The End" the followers, the perceived power, it all goes away...

One could almost believe that in desperation the story will die with the author, dragged out just to cling to every last vestige of an ego inspired power trip.

Or is that just a plot for a second rate fictional story?

Maybe this should be posted in 'Story suggestions'?

Replies:   sharkjcw
Remus2

@StarFleet Carl

Things authors do that bother you?

Go look at Nick Scipio's Picture of the Day for the last three days. His website, his rules. But that also marks the last time I bother to read any of his work - because rather than have an open discussion, he's insulted me, one of his readers, because in his words, I'm a racist, rapist, scum.


Didn't know who he was until I saw this post. After a brief visit to that site, a search of the forum here, and a brief review of the twitter account under that name; there is zero probability of my ever reading his work, or ever supporting him in anyway.

You're mistake was in thinking he would be open to a reasonable discussion. The above sources make it crystal clear anyone not in lockstep with him is racist, bigoted, sexist, etc in his mind. There is no middle ground for someone like that.

I feel sorry for people like that. A person can exist in a state of hatred for only so long before they become a mirror of that hate. A cold comfort way of living imo.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Keet
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl

Go look at Nick Scipio's Picture of the Day for the last three days. His website, his rules.

I don't think he has any idea how much he hurts his site and part of his readership. Of course it's his site so he can do what he wants but he should take care to behave himself politically on a site that has nothing to do with politics.

Personally I don't care. As a non-American I can do nothing more then loudly laugh at the soap opera that constitutes as American politics.

edit: The way he responded to you just displays his narrow minded thinking processes, completely controlled by high huge ego.

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

I was only really saying I rely on information on .gov for my decisions about my health.


If money corrupts research, why is corporate money suspect, but government money controlled by politicians pristine and uncorrupting?

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

If money corrupts research, why is corporate money suspect, but government money controlled by politicians pristine and uncorrupting?


Because up to about 20 to 25 years ago most of the researchers funded by the government were not told what the results they had to find were. Yet the majority of corporate funded researchers were being told what results they had to find and helped to shape the research that way.

Ross at Play

@Dominions Son

If money corrupts research, why is corporate money suspect, but government money controlled by politicians pristine and uncorrupting?

Okay, so perhaps all medical research is potentially corrupt.

I described what guides my decisions for what I do for my health. I do not want what is more likely than not to be the best choice. I want what is very likely to be a reasonable choice. The .gov sights I rely for my decisions are not funding research; it's bureaucrats figuring out consensus opinions based on the body of all available research.

I don't care what others choose to do. I'm only really applying the principle of 'Do No Harm' to my actions too.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

Because up to about 20 to 25 years ago most of the researchers funded by the government were not told what the results they had to find were.

THAT TOO.

In most cases there was, possibly still is, a layer of civil servants between the politicians and the researchers whose job is not dependent on the outcome of the next election. That may vary between different countries.

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Because up to about 20 to 25 years ago most of the researchers funded by the government were not told what the results they had to find were.


In the UK, the rot started when the NHS was founded and the government found it had the power to 'nanny' its people.

For me, cohort, meta or consensus studies raise an immediate red flag. They're a cheap and lazy substitute for actually doing the specific testing required, and the results are highly dependent on the methodologies of the studies assessed.

AJ

Ross at Play

Sorry.

Forgiven! :-)

Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

Because up to about 20 to 25 years ago most of the researchers funded by the government were not told what the results they had to find were. Yet the majority of corporate funded researchers were being told what results they had to find and helped to shape the research that way.


Pretty much this. While there are older examples of the government "putting a hand in" with regards to shifty studies(typically under "national security"), they were few and very far in between.

Then activists found their way into, or otherwise made themselves known as being in positions of power in NASA, NOAA, NSF, and so on.

That none of the political parties can currently be trusted with "cleaning house" just makes it worse with no end in sight. That the Democrats are often cheerleading a lot of the activism doesn't help matters.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Not_a_ID

How close to the "no political discussion rule" are you guys intending to skate ??

PotomacBob

@Ernest Bywater

Then how will I identify the good wines?


By tasting them?

Ross at Play

I just came across a homophone that nearly slipped my notice.

I have having some fun recently on the forum of the Express newspaper in England. It's a pro-Brexit tabloid and the vast majority of those on the forum are rabidly pro-Brexit. I've been making sarcastic anti-Brexit posts trying to antagonise the rabble there as much as I can. I'm quite suited to that task.

In one exchange a pro-Brexiter said there were only about 6 anti-Brexiters on the forum, and all working out of one office somewhere.

One of the anti-Brexiters replied:

Actually, we're being held prisoner and forced to write witty, inciteful comments.

I chimed in with:

... like many passengers on the Titanic after being told there weren't enough Dublin-based investment funds to save everyone.

The first time I read the other post I understood 'insightful'. I'd say that 'witty' and 'insightful' is a pair of words that are used together quite often.

It was only later I realised they had actually used 'inciteful'. I'm not certain which they meant now, because we do both seem to be having fun inciting as much hostility in the majority there as possible. :-)

helmut_meukel

@Ernest Bywater

However, where I know of authors here at SoL posting a cast list as the last post to a story they've had some emails asking, in not always polite terms, why the $#@* they didn't post it earlier.


That's the difference between Stories posted here on SOL and an ebook/printed book.

When I – as a reader – get confused about the characters, I want to have the cast list available to look it up. Simple with an ebook or printed book, it's there at the end of the book.

With the posting schedule here on SOL even most finished books get posted chapter after chapter, so if I get confused about a character I can't look-up the cast list if it comes after the last chapter, probably in three months.
To post the cast list prior to the first chapter might cause spoilers.

The best solution for most readers will cause additional work for the author: a cast list with only the characters and the info about them up to the actual chapter, which gets replaced by an updated cast list whenever necessary (new characters introduced, existing characters marry or get divorced, ...).
For a reader who starts reading an ongoing story when already scores of chapters are published, the then available cast list may contain spoilers for him, but that's unavoidable and similar to the cast list in an ebook/printed book.

HM.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
helmut_meukel

@Not_a_ID

but yeah, generally the people who were getting paid for what they did and only did what they're paid for? Not much authorial love for them.


IIRC, RAH despised one of the editors he had to cope with. She demanded changes in his stories he didn't want to make.

HM.

Not_a_ID

@helmut_meukel

IIRC, RAH despised one of the editors he had to cope with. She demanded changes in his stories he didn't want to make.


I think Orson Scott Card actually thanked an editor/publisher in a couple of his(Speaker for the Dead) books, and a few other better known authors have done so from time to time, so even "the professionals" get thanked on occasion. Although almost always for what the author considers to being to be "going out of their way" to provide help and support in their writing process.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
PotomacBob

@StarFleet Carl

Things authors do that bother you?

Go look at Nick Scipio's Picture of the Day for the last three days. His website, his rules. But that also marks the last time I bother to read any of his work - because rather than have an open discussion, he's insulted me, one of his readers, because in his words, I'm a racist, rapist, scum.


As you suggested, I went to look. There's nothing there except the photos. No comments at all. No "racist, rapist, scum." No nothing. What, exactly, did you say to set him off?

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@PotomacBob

As you suggested, I went to look. There's nothing there except the photos.

It's there - look at his comment below the picture.

https://www.nickscipio.com/pod/2018/09/30/still-here-selfie/

I have no clue what ended up being said in comments, if anything - he posted a picture that's a goatse parody with comments closed when I went to look like I normally do for his WTF Friday pic. And he has just kept it going.

Replies:   PotomacBob
StarFleet Carl

@helmut_meukel

RAH despised one of the editors he had to cope with. She demanded changes in his stories he didn't want to make.


There were lots of comments in his "Grumbles from the Grave" showing his mail with Lurton Blassingame, his agent, about the issues he had with the woman from Scribners about his juvenile stories.

IIRC, one of the most serious changes forced upon him that irritated him, was the ending to Podkayne of Mars. In the published juvenile, Podkayne was injured but would recover. In his original, she died protecting the Martian. (Oh, yeah, spoiler alert in case you haven't read this book from 50 some odd years ago.)

Keet

@helmut_meukel

With the posting schedule here on SOL even most finished books get posted chapter after chapter, so if I get confused about a character I can't look-up the cast list if it comes after the last chapter, probably in three months.
To post the cast list prior to the first chapter might cause spoilers.

The best solution for most readers will cause additional work for the author: a cast list with only the characters and the info about them up to the actual chapter, which gets replaced by an updated cast list whenever necessary (new characters introduced, existing characters marry or get divorced, ...).

That is a very good idea and I think some authors do exactly that. It avoids spoilers although readers starting later still could run into some spoilers.

PotomacBob

@StarFleet Carl

I'd swear his comment (the only one there today) wasn't there yesterday when I looked. There's still no indication what set him off. Was it just that you looked at his photo? or did you say something that made him retaliate? His comment doesn't say it's directed at you specifically, but to a type of political believers, suggesting someone may have posted something political on his site.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@PotomacBob

someone may have posted something political on his site.


Indeed. He did.

Nick is well known for voicing his personal opinions and has a track record of throwing his toys out of his pram if anyone dares question his opinion.

PotomacBob

@joyR

Accepting what you say as the truth (I have no reason to dispute it) - why would he all of a sudden without provocation start lashing out at someone visiting his site for no reason? And why would a visitor think the tirade was aimed at him (assumption, perhaps false, on my part that it's a male.) That's why I ask: What set him off?

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@PotomacBob

That's why I ask: What set him off?


Ok, short version, and only because you asked for it, the site owner is anti Trump, so chose to insult all Trump supporters.

Those people who bother to check out his site, well the 'picture of the day' anyway, read the insults, yes plural, I gather new ones each day for three days. Anyway, those who visited and who are/were Trump supporters obviously felt insulted, not I presume because he is opposed to their views, but because he chose to brand them as "scum, racist, rapist, scum."

Apparently using scum once wasn't enough for him.

So really it's not a political thing at all, it's about an egotist insulting visitors to his site, in his case, those reading his story, who doubtless will decide not to bother, not a bad choice because at current output it'll be a couple of decades before it grinds to an end.

All clear now?

Replies:   Darian Wolfe  PotomacBob
Darian Wolfe

@joyR

As Darian Wolfe, I'm decidedly, non-political. One reason is prior to my illness I spent a major portion of my free time involved in politics and took to writing to get away from the stress. Another reason is I want everybody to have the ability to enjoy or hate my work based solely on my work itself. The third reason is it is way too easy to trigger anyone just by adjusting my language the slightest bit. While fun, it's not what I'm here to do.

Politics isn't an attempt to appeal to reason. it is an attempt to drive you by your emotion. Any reasoning you hear from any politician on any side of any fence is simply a piece of candy hiding the poison to move your emotions in the direction they want you to go.

It has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with peoples perception. Character assassination starts as soon as the "wrong person" begins looking like they might be interested in office. Character building begins as soon as the "right person" does. How else do you think all these new superstars nobody's ever heard of coming out of nowhere appear?

With the right team, you can make a homeless meth head a senator or do the reverse. That's the simple facts.

Replies:   joyR  Crumbly Writer
Remus2

With the right team, you can make a homeless meth head a senator or do the reverse. That's the simple facts.


There has been some success with that. I seem to recall a crackhead as mayor of D.C.

In my eyes, every politician above a small town mayor level is dirty in one way or another. That especially holds true on a national level. The fantasy of a clean politican ranks right up there with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Voting is electing which fantasy a person chooses to live in, and which brand of shit sandwich is more palatable.

Then again, I have been accused a time or two of being pessimistic.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe  joyR  PotomacBob
Darian Wolfe

@Remus2

which brand of shit sandwich is more palatable.


You got it exactly right. To be honest, I knew 1 honest judge and 1 honest Senator, but while both had successful local careers neither could go national because they were honest.

A person who thinks they want to be in politics needs to think it over because there will be people coming at you whose whole purpose is to destroy you. Emotionally, Psychologically, and socially anyway possible that you can be made to look bad if it can be managed you will.

It doesn't have to be proved. The doubt just has to be planted deep enough. Can we make enough people think it's possible?

All sides have people paid and unpaid dedicated to doing just that. Politics isn't about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights in America that's just the ballfield the game is played in. Politics is power, who has it, how can you get it from them and how can you keep it and use it to push through your agenda.

Do you really think very many American politicians care about the founding fathers and their ideas on governing? You'll hear the founding father's words in their speeches but if you do a semantic analysis you'll easily see the politicians are applying a different meaning to the words than the founding fathers did. More candy for the poison.

Anyway, Darian's not political so I need to hush and go back to the fireplace and sip my Mt. Dew.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR

@Darian Wolfe

As Darian Wolfe, I'm decidedly, non-political etc etc


Ok, you lost me. Was that aimed at me, or a general observation?

I'm British so US politics aren't of interest anyway, I was simply answering a question directed at me. (And trying not to make a political observation in doing so)

That's the simple facts. :)

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
joyR

@Remus2

which brand of shit sandwich is more palatable.


Confucius say whole life like shit sandwich, the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.

Darian Wolfe

@joyR

The simple facts is I was just flapping my lips or fingers as the case may be in general. I've had an Aphasia spell for most of the day which means I've been unable to talk so I type. ;)

PotomacBob

@joyR

So, are you saying that nobody said or posted anything that set him off? He just decided to insult visitors to his site for their political views without any trigger at all? I had suspected that somebody said something he didn't like, and he responded, then, sometime later, he decided to wipe out their comments and close the section. Admittedly, that was pure guesswork on my part.
Going off on people on your site without any provocation sure is curious. And curiouser.
Thanks for answering.

PotomacBob

@Remus2

In my eyes, every politician above a small town mayor level is dirty in one way or another.


I agree that's the pessimistic view. To me, "every" is a bit harsh because I believe I have known some politicians, from both parties, who don't fit that description. And I know you're wrong about Santa Claus. I saw him when I took my offspring to the mall last Christmas season.

Replies:   Remus2  Crumbly Writer
Remus2

@PotomacBob

I have known some politicians, from both parties, who don't fit that description.


Then you have known some unicorns and elves.

Darian Wolfe

To speak to the actual topic of the thread, my one main gripe is an author who is a one trick pony who has basically the same theme that runs through every story.

I'll use myself as an example. In almost every story I have a younger guy chasing an older woman. Why? That was my gig. I was raised by women and I learned to associate comfort and security with older women.

Women my own age scared me to death. they changed their minds every 30 seconds while with older women you had at least a minute and a half ;) It was kinda funny as I married someone seven years younger than me.

When I started writing fiction the dynamic that was easiest for me to write was a young man chasing an older woman. The only two stories I went in the opposite direction was "You wanna What?" and "Mr. Evans". Even my lesbian stories went with the younger wanting the older first. SO I point my finger at myself first. BAD AUTHOR, get your head out your ass and get creative. If I am able to start writing fiction again. I guess it'll be time to start something new.

AmigaClone

@Darian Wolfe

To speak to the actual topic of the thread, my one main gripe is an author who is a one trick pony who has basically the same theme that runs through every story.


For me that is not necessarily a bad thing. Even with the same theme two stories could as different as a 1919 Ford Model T and a 2019 Ford Taurus. Both can be described as a Ford vehicle used to carry people with four wheels and an engine but once you get past that you have very different cars.

I would agree with your gripe in the case of an author who mass produces stories that outside a scene or two and possible name changes can't be distinguished from each other. I do make an exception when the author warns that two or three stories start out the same but after a point diverge.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
StarFleet Carl

@Darian Wolfe

To speak to the actual topic of the thread, my one main gripe is an author who is a one trick pony who has basically the same theme that runs through every story.


To a certain extent, I resemble that remark. I find that it's much easier for me to write a fan fiction or a story based in an existing dead tree authors universe. At least if you looked at the file on my computer that's entitled Stories in Progress, that's what you'd find.

Another variant on a Skyrim story (Bethesda game), a Fallout 4 story (Bethesda game), a story based in the Black Tide Rising universe (John Ringo novel), a story based in an alternate universe with a different Kal-El (Superman). One of the stories I have published on here is based in the Winds of Change universe, the other is a Skyrim novel.

I actually do have two stories in progress that are original works. One is a Halloween story I started for LAST years contest and still haven't finished. The other is a novel set during WWII.

Regarding actually finishing my work ... on the one hand, I'm not a slow writer when I can write. On the other hand, I learned my lesson so I'm not posting something without it being done (or nearly totally done). On the gripping hand, since I still work full time, and I'm not now out on disability like I was earlier this year, actually doing my job and putting in my 60 hours a week earning money sort of has to be my priority.

Not_a_ID

@AmigaClone

For me that is not necessarily a bad thing. Even with the same theme two stories could as different as a 1919 Ford Model T and a 2019 Ford Taurus.


That isn't bad. Bad is when you get a 2019 Ford Taurus and a 2019 Mercury Sable offering from the same author... Well, if Mercury is still around. (For non-Americans and non-car types, the Mercury Sable was the luxury branded version of the Ford Taurus.)

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
Ernest Bywater

@Darian Wolfe

To speak to the actual topic of the thread, my one main gripe is an author who is a one trick pony who has basically the same theme that runs through every story.


A lot depends on how you deal with it. I've 2 short stories which have the exact same theme because they derived from the same story concept request, but are two very different stories.

StarFleet Carl

@PotomacBob

Going off on people on your site without any provocation sure is curious. And curiouser.
Thanks for answering.


Well, he's known for his Friday WTF picture. Which is fine. By the time I clicked on his site on that Friday, the comment section was closed. So I can't really say what happened to set him off like this. I presume that he deleted all the comments and then is keeping them closed, which is, to me, simply teasing the bear for when (or if) he finally reopens comments on his regular nude pictures.

I think your confusion is that by my wording, you thought he was addressing his comments directly to me. He didn't. He simply said that anyone who supports what President Trump has been doing is (basically) a vile and disgusting person. Or as Hillary said, 'deplorables'. I am a military vet, I live in a VERY religious state (Oklahoma), and this is a state that has been very supportive of a single party, at least since the 2000 Presidential election. (Seriously not a single county voted D in 2004, 2008, 2012, or 2016.)

StarFleet Carl

@Not_a_ID

Bad is when you get a 2019 Ford Taurus and a 2019 Mercury Sable offering from the same author... Well, if Mercury is still around. (For non-Americans and non-car types, the Mercury Sable was the luxury branded version of the Ford Taurus.)


A bit older, but a Honda Passport and an Isuzu Rodeo. Other than badging, they were the same vehicle. Something more modern, a Nissan Armada and an Infiniti QX-80. Same vehicle.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
joyR

Getting back to the topic.

Has anyone else noticed and been annoyed by authors confusing 'shuddered' and 'shuttered' ?

awnlee jawking

@joyR

Women have shuttering orgasms when they are penetrated by ridged cocks ;)

AJ

red61544

@joyR

It all depends on their operating system: if they use Windows, they are shuttered.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ross at Play


Change the first sentence to this and that's exactly what I think. :-)

That's why I'm all for [Americans shooting] each other.


Yeah, our entire 'civil discourse' is crumbling around us, I'm not convinced there's any way out other than us all strangling each other. However, the same divisions which are so rampant here, are popping up everywhere else too. So while it's worse in America, this is hardly an isolated 'American problem'. Instead, we've become the bellweather for everyone else, a clear example of how NOT to address the issues. It may be too late for us, but if the rest of the world doesn't figure out a way around the problems, they're unlikely to avoid them too.

Note: Sorry for the thousand-post deluge, but I've been purposely avoiding this thread for a LONG time, and had many useless points to object too (but truthfully, I have insights into several of the 'publishing' aspects of the topics raised).

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Coconut milk is produced by pressing the pulp from the inside of a mature coconut. I don't use it because it is high in fats and almost all are saturated.

Coconut water is the juice that can be poured out of a coconut. It's a refreshing and healthy drink because it contains a lot of antioxidants and the amount of fat is very low, even if most of that is saturated.

Good point. I'd completely forgotten about that distinction, once again equating two different things.

In my defense, though, those from the Caribbean (where most coconuts originate) consume the two products (water and the inside rind) separately, and use it for entirely separate things. The 'idea' to mix the two into a new product was a purely American marketing gimmick.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@red61544

I know this will piss off a bunch of people, but the thing that bugs me most is when authors sit in this damned forum instead of writing. When I'm really into a story, I want to scream if I'm waiting for the next chapter and the author is in here discussing what bugs him about other authors! Write the story, damn it!

That's certainly a valid complaint, but for most of us (authors), this is where we come to unwind whenever we're between projects/chapters, or we can't write for whatever reason, and ranting about everyone else's excesses (without acknowledging our own) allows us to vent our frustrations before getting back to our writing once the pressure is off.

Just because we're on the forum doesn't mean we're not writing, the thing to watch for (using myself as an example) is when our arguments start sounding completely unjustified and not well-reasoned, as it suggests we're in trouble and likely our books are foundering too.

By the way, I'm posting a blog post about this very issue tomorrow, where I'll expound on my own situation a bit more.

Crumbly Writer

@John Demille

Maybe it's time to reevaluate your stance, the science is changing on fats and carbs. New study after study is proving that fat is good for you, especially animal fat.

Our understanding of fats is continually evolving, but the fact remains that we still consume way more fats than we should. However, most of our current assumptions are entirely erroneous (about which are 'good fats' and which are bad).

What's more interesting, is that Science if finally admitting that most of our assumptions about weight gain are entirely erroneous (i.e. dieting really has no effect on weight at all). Which is something most of us have known for years.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@StarFleet Carl

A bit older, but a Honda Passport and an Isuzu Rodeo. Other than badging, they were the same vehicle. Something more modern, a Nissan Armada and an Infiniti QX-80. Same vehicle.


After checking wiki this morning, the Mercury Sable ended production in 2009, so no 2019 version exists, although the Taurus still lives on. (Part of the problem there is Ford's baseline itself has moved into the luxury tier so the two nameplates were competing with each other)

There were other differences between a Taurus and a Sable, but most of the differences were in the details, slightly better suspension as stock, better/fancier instrumentation on the dashboard, nicer interior features, etc. As you don't simply turn a car into a "Luxury Car" by slapping a Luxury Car label on it.

However, mechanically, frame and body wise, it was the same exact car. So I guess to extrapolate it into a literary version, it would be basically recycling the same story, only changing some of the names and maybe places, and perhaps changing the Brunette into a Redhead or Blonde, or vice-versa. There might also be slightly more exposition added into the story making it slightly longer but not by much. Basically what a lot of plagiarists do when they try to pass off somebody else's work off as their own, only in this case, it is the actual author doing it.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I'm aware of mounting evidence against diets high in carbs but assume that has more to do with highly-processed carbs in modern first-world diets, rather than total carbs.

Sorry, but the evidence has always been that the problem (at least in America) is the total intake of carbs, rather than the source of the carbs.

I personally used Dr. Atkins as my personal physician for years, and while I disagree with many of his assertions, I've always agreed with him about carbs (as a diabetic, proteins break down slower than anything else, and thus result in more consistent blood levels over time, while carbs (including fruits) produce spike and crashes, which make controlling one's sugar levels virtually impossible).

By the way, I mostly went to Dr. Atkins because he was the only doctor in America where he's prescribe vitamins and the Insurance Companies were actually cover them (because they weren't 'over the counter', but actually formulated and constructed by him), and were prescribed based on extensive testing concerning how they impacted each individual, rather than saying "this mostly sawdust products are good for EVERYONE".

People have argued bitterly over Atkins' work, but they've never disproven his results, and his message is as true today as it was in his heyday. And yes, he was successful in getting the majority of his diabetic patients off of ALL their diabetic medications (both insulin and pills), they he knew enough to recognize that Type 1 and Type 2 diabetics are completely different issues.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Boy, am I glad that doesn't apply to me, due to me completing the stories before I start to post them.

It does for me. Instead of posting my current story twice a week, as normal, I'm only posting once a week because of my various health problems (which is also why many of my objections over the most few months are often half-baked, as my thinking isn't quite 'up to par').

However, that has nothing at all to do with the Forums. Like me, you can generally tell when an author is in trouble when they cut back or avoid the forum entirely, rather than arguing her in their downtime to vent their frustrations.

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

Our understanding of fats is continually evolving, but the fact remains that we still consume way more fats than we should. However, most of our current assumptions are entirely erroneous (about which are 'good fats' and which are bad).


Well, except for maybe Trans-fats, I doubt any study is likely to ever make those out to be good things. The human body(or most other animals for that matter) simply doesn't know what to do with that stuff, even if it does taste good. Although there evidently is some bacteria that knows what to do with the stuff, and they supposedly identified the enzyme involved in breaking it down properly a few years ago.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Then how will I identify the good wines?

In this forum, it's easy to identify the good whines!

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Remus2


If an author writes something you don't like, the answer is simple. Don't read the author.


While I agree with that, I've heard several authors site cases where readers abandon an author because of a single 'bad book' (which is often very successful). We need to learn that a single book doesn't define an author, and that it's often the subject of the story, or the way it's presented, which we object to, rather than the author suddenly 'losing his touch'.

That said, I've long noticed that most author's essentially write the same basic story over and over, refining their techniques over time. But that 'refining' technique merely covers over their essential issues, and that each author's most vital and compelling stories are often their first (or at least the first commercially viable one, in the days of dead-tree publishers).

Crumbly Writer

@Remus2

The latter is particularly useful if your in areas of the Caribbean and South America where the water supply can be dangerous.

Sorry to be a stickler for grammar, but your use of "your in" is wrong. It should be: "if urine areas of". 'D

Replies:   Remus2
Crumbly Writer

@John Demille

You should read the updated science about cholesterol too. Dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol and blood cholesterol has no effect and cardiac health. Too many people are prescribed statins for no benefit and a host of bad side effects.

The other thing I've noted over the years, is that most people suffering from high blood pressure really have NO problem at all. Instead, their relying on the 'safer' decaffeinated products are the cause, as the entire decaffeination process causes the high-blood pressure problems, and if they went back to full-strength coffee, they'd actually be much healthier. Many times, the 'healthy' alternatives are actually worse than the mass-produced shit!

Replies:   Keet
Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

As someone who uses "Little one" as a term of endearment to grown women in real life. consider yourself rasberried. ;)

But what if the women are munchkins, fairies or pixies?

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

The 'idea' to mix the two into a new product was a purely American marketing gimmick.

NOPE. Once again, as most of your countrymen so frequently do, you've assumed an explanation for something involves America.

I'm almost certain that both coconut water and coconut milk have been staple ingredients in cooking in South-East and South Asia since long before Europeans arrived in America.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@joyR


Probably not, More likely to be old and similar ways.


Yeah, the tendency, when attacked, is always to double down and reinforce, rather than considering new and strange alternatives.

Ignorance of what? It is patently untrue to say a primate tribe are idiots because they are not civilised like you/us. Idiots are as likely to be those trying to maintain their PC beliefs whilst everyone else is trying to find enough to eat.


Sorry, but your attack here is completely unfounded, as no one was describing tribal people, or suggesting an apocalyptic breakdown of governments across the globe.

Instead, they were describing the worse statements by most people are simply based on faulty assumptions (which has nothing at all to do with tribal peoples, who often rely on the tribal elders to help them understand the world, not an unwise decision at all).

Replies:   Ross at Play  joyR
Crumbly Writer

@madnige

Simple - choose the wines that are not from the EU.

Or, never trust anything you don't make in your own bathtub (or still). 'D

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

The other thing I've noted over the years, is that most people suffering from high blood pressure really have NO problem at all. Instead, their relying on the 'safer' decaffeinated products are the cause, as the entire decaffeination process causes the high-blood pressure problems, and if they went back to full-strength coffee, they'd actually be much healthier. Many times, the 'healthy' alternatives are actually worse than the mass-produced shit!

Hail the liquid black gold! High blood pressure is one of the very few problems I don't have. Now I know it's probably because I consume huge amounts of coffee every day, summer or winter. The day I stop drinking coffee is the day I died ;)

Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

Darian, while I understand your concerns, their based on an underlying fallicy (that transexuality is based entirely on sexual orientation). In short, it's not. It's about not feeling comfortable in your own body. When most people transition, it's about 50/50 whether they end up gay or straight (i.e. it's unaffiliated with their sexual interest before or after their operation).

However, the biggest danger for trans folk (the currently accepted phrase) is recognizing and acting on it early. If you wait until someone is an adult, it's already too late to them to EVER successfully transition. Instead, the best bet is to open communications, get them some legitimate (i.e. non-religious counceling by those who understand the underlying issues), and, if necessary get them on medications which will delay the normal sexual hormones from permanently making them either obviously male or female.

They can always change their minds later, as many do, but if you wait until they are legally capable of deciding for themselves, they'll never fit in, whether they transition or not.

However, it's never an easy choice, no matter at what age it's undertaken. Just as gays (in the 80s and 90s) famously asked "If being gay is a choice, would I choose a life of oppression and hostility?" No one will decide to 'change' their sex just because someone wants them to, just as no one will remain as they are just because others frown on it.

However, while gays and lesbians are generally accepted nowadays, trans folk still have a mountain to climb before they ever see widespread acceptance.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@Keet

STARTING with a cast list. Personally I prefer the cast list at the end because too many times it contains spoilers. I read in some blog posts that some people immediately toss a book if it starts with a cast list. If you really need one put it at the end for reference.

Even worse: An (updated) cast list in the middle of the book, a chapter starting with a cast list. Put the damn thing at the end, it interrupts reading. If a cast list is needed up front then there's a good chance that you fell short in your character descriptions in the story itself.

Once again, I completely understand your objections, but as someone who regularly includes cast lists as my very first post (after the cover image, of course), let me explain the reasoning.

Since I post already completed and fully edited stories, I'm already aware of how extensive the cast is. Although I posted on the A House in Disarray when the numbers didn't really support it, in many cases, I have casts in the hundreds (for an extended series). In those cases, the cast list is a necessity, and is often required as you're reading the story and not as something to post after everyone's already finished it.

That's why I post updated cast lists. I stated off posting the full cast list with a disclaimer, telling people NOT to read it, but only to use it to search for any character they can't recall. However, that didn't seem to have any effect. So now I add each individual character as the story unfolds, so the current list only reflects those the readers have already encountered (although those doesn't prevent spoilers for those reading the story after it's posted). For that, you learn to only specify identifying information, instead of what they do during the book.

Editor recognition in the most inconsistent way possible. The enormous creativity of some authors is unbelievable: EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER ends with different format of editor acknowledgement. Bold, italics, bold and italics, as a notice, as a blockquote, preceded with a horizontal line, multiple editors on the same line or over multiple lines, and every other "creative mix" you can think about.

The 'universally' accepted way of listing editors (on SOL, at least) is in the story end-notes, rather than in each chapter or even within the story. Who your editors are does not affect the plot, so including it in the story itself is patently wrong, on a whole variety of levels.

Anyway, that's it for my baying, now I'll let everyone else howl their own objections. 'D

Replies:   Keet
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

You'd be surprised how many people complain when you put a cast list on the end. When posting at SoL my tendency, now, is to do the cast list as a separate post readers can access as they wish, while the print book versions and the e-pub versions have the lists at the back of the book for the reasons you mention.

That's a viable alternative, but too often, readers simply will not click on any external link, so the majority of readers will never benefit from the cast list in those cases.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

That will depend a lot on the size of a story, a long saga with a short cast is very boring.

The general industry rule of thumb is to only include a cast list in you have a full typewritten page of characters (i.e. well over twenty). For anything under 30, you really don't need one, although for sci-fi sagas with undecipherable names, the need is even more pressing since readers are often unable to make sense of the names.

Replies:   Wheezer
Crumbly Writer

@Keet

I don't remember ever seeing an editor mentioned in a dead tree book. In most cases it's just a payed employee of the publisher that isn't recognized in the book.

They're typically listed in the "Acknowledgments" section, which is rarely glanced at by most readers, and thus is often delegated to the end of the book, although the traditional placement is just after the copyright page (another page readers rarely care a whit about).

The "Acknowledgments" is also distinct from the "Dedication" page, which lists the people who inspired the story, like an authors supportive family, friends and wife-who-proofs for them, as it offers a more personal thanks than most editors warrant. But those rarely appear at all.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Really? I would rather suspect that most readers skip the cast list like they apparently often do with the prologue. I know I skip them unless the author has abused the cast list to add other information that should have been in a foreword, prologue or appendix.

The vital distinctions is that Cast/Character List should NEVER be read, as they're NOT a part of the story. They are there only for when a reader might forget who someone is, when it's been some time when they appeared or when two characters have very similar names.

In that case, the readers should only scan the cast list (which are traditionally listed alphabetically), and ONLY read the one character's reference in order to identify him/her.

There is no reason to ever 'read' as cast list. It's NOT like sitting around to watch the list of actors in a movie after you've watched it to identify which actor played which character. It's only a reference document to help confused readers.

However, authors should always provide additional context whenever they reintroduce a character, so the readers won't be forced to keep turning to the contact list. If readers keep going to the contact list, you've lost them, as it takes them 'out' of their story and they lose the entire thread of the chapter they're in.

There are natural, seamless ways of providing character information, and then there is the 'last-ditch' character list, which is where you go when all else fails! :(

Replies:   Keet
Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

But that also marks the last time I bother to read any of his work - because rather than have an open discussion, he's insulted me, one of his readers, because in his words, I'm a racist, rapist, scum.

Yeah, whatever the context, that's not a way to gain readers and attract new followers, and is a bad idea for a whole host of reasons.

Again, that's why it's best to leave politics out of your story, as it only alienates those who might eventually get the most out of your story.

In the end, a teacher never spits in his students' faces and then assumes they'll learn anything, so authors shouldn't alienate those he has issues with, but should instead work to reach out and embrace them, just so they'll consider his objections. But that's an extremely difficult bridge to cross for most. :( I struggle with how best to accomplish it all the time.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

Cast lists are snapshots in time relevant specifically to the work they are attached to. A compilation piece can be done, but there be major spoilers to be had there if you pull up the omnibus cast last for something in book 1 and incidentally learn about events many volumes later.

In my "Box Sets" (a single book which includes an entire series of books), I list each book's character lists separately, so referencing one won't reveal spoilers of what the character does in the future.

Yet another alternative, which I experimented with in developing my Bibliogrphies, is to instead include the 'who the hell is this character' information in html < abbr > commands. This nice thing about that, is that if you paused your mouse over the name, and leave it there for a several moments, the information will pop up, providing the context. That doesn't doesn't force the reader to stop dead in his tracks, go to the end of the book, come all the way back and then have to figure out what the hell was happening.

Unfortunately, few readers have any clue how the ABBR (abbreviations) command works, and it requires you to list the information ANY TIME you list the character, so it's not an optimal solution. :(

Replies:   Keet
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

That's a viable alternative, but too often, readers simply will not click on any external link, so the majority of readers will never benefit from the cast list in those cases.


CW, I don't provide links. When i have a story at Sol with a cast list I now posts it so you get:

Cover
ToC
Cast List
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
etc

For the e-pub I place the cast list at the back of the book.

And in answer to your other post, if I don't have more than a full page I don't include a cast list. usually it needs two pages or more before I include it.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Remus2

Didn't know who he was until I saw this post. After a brief visit to that site, a search of the forum here, and a brief review of the twitter account under that name; there is zero probability of my ever reading his work, or ever supporting him in anyway.

You're mistake was in thinking he would be open to a reasonable discussion. The above sources make it crystal clear anyone not in lockstep with him is racist, bigoted, sexist, etc in his mind. There is no middle ground for someone like that.

His early (and only successful story was his "Summer Camp" series. Unfortunately, the only books in that entire series worth reading are the first two.

He went astray, when he finally realized he couldn't write anything else (i.e. he didn't have any actual personal experiences to call upon for a story), and thus he started stringing the same story out over time. He launched his ill-fated website, and like most bloggers, invested so much time in posting his 'picture of the day', that he no longer devoted much time to writing anymore.

However, his rants are more an indication that he's in serious trouble, as they only started years after his slow descent into obscurity, after his series was obviously never going to be successfully resolved. Thus his decline is more over his declining health (both mental and physical) and less over his losing recognition.

That said, I followed his 'picture of the day' for years, as they were actually quite funny, but when he started ranting, and going off on completely unrelated tangents, I gave up on his ever producing anything worth considering. At this point, I don't think he's capable of writing a sensible book any more. :( But, those first two books will always be classics, as they captured the conflicts in a three-way relationship perfectly (since they were presumably based on a failed romance in his teen years).

Crumbly Writer

@helmut_meukel

The best solution for most readers will cause additional work for the author: a cast list with only the characters and the info about them up to the actual chapter, which gets replaced by an updated cast list whenever necessary (new characters introduced, existing characters marry or get divorced, ...).

The problem (for authors) is that it's difficult replacing a cast list as the first posted chapter with a completed version at the end of the story. You've got to request that Lazeez physically delete the chapter, then wait several days until it's official and a new version won't simply update the old one.

I'd love to see SOL implement a 'replace cast list' feature, which does it automatically so it wasn't such an extensive manual effort, but I'm unable to imagine how to implement it. :(

The best solution for most readers will cause additional work for the author: a cast list with only the characters and the info about them up to the actual chapter, which gets replaced by an updated cast list whenever necessary (new characters introduced, existing characters marry or get divorced, ...).

Sorry, but that's the wrong approach, and will always introduce spoilers into a cast list. You don't include 'updates' on the characters, but only identify who the character is. Thus you'd use: "Sally Mae: a childhood friend of the protagonist.", rather than "Sally Mae: A childhood friend of the protagonist who later slept with his best friend and later robbed a bank."

Using the information about the character when they're first introduced (or when they were correctly identified, as many of mine are only 'first names' when first introduced, and only developed as actual characters a few chapters later), is your best option.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

You said this in a post directed at @JoyR

Sorry, but your attack here is completely unfounded

I think you've gone a bit over the top this time.

I'd say I'm more "liberal" (American meaning) than you and I cannot find anything offensive in her post.

I'm not saying I agree with it, or that I think it's relevant ... just that I see nothing objectionable.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@helmut_meukel

IIRC, RAH despised one of the editors he had to cope with. She demanded changes in his stories he didn't want to make.

I had a similar situation, where I paid serious money to an editor who fucked me over, and left me with an utterly unpublishable work after essentially rewriting my entire story in her voice. When I finally tossed out her entire contribution, I kept her prologue, as it really was much better than mine, but still retained my original 'author's voice', but I never listed her as an editor, since I assumed she wouldn't want to be identified after I rejected every subsequent edit I paid for and only kept the 'free edits'. Thus not listing her was actually more for her benefit than mine.

If she ever objects, or even notices, I can always add her again, but I can't envision that ever occurring. (And I'll never recommend her to anyone else. I seriously think she was going through a personal crisis in her life, and actually wasn't at the top of her game, but I'm not going to risk it by giving her a second shot, especially since she's never apologized for not doing what we agreed she's do. But by the same token, I won't publicly name her, as I doubt she's done the same thing to anyone else.)

P.S. It'll be a long, long time before I ever pay a professional editor again, as a result, as I can always rely on and get better results from the amateurs I use on a regular basis.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

Since I post already completed and fully edited stories, I'm already aware of how extensive the cast is.

I have no objections to the existence of a cast list, I just hate to see a story start with a cast list. A long story with many characters even needs a cast list. Remember that although you update as you go that a lot of readers read when the story is complete and that means the cast list is complete too. Having it a the end avoids spoilers from the cast list and still has it available for reference.

The 'universally' accepted way of listing editors (on SOL, at least) is in the story end-notes, rather than in each chapter or even within the story.

It may be the accepted way but still I see most stories with editor recognition in every chapter. If only those authors followed the accepted way. It's laudable to recognize your editors and proofreaders but it should indeed be in the end-note.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

I think Orson Scott Card actually thanked an editor/publisher in a couple of his(Speaker for the Dead) books, and a few other better known authors have done so from time to time, so even "the professionals" get thanked on occasion. Although almost always for what the author considers to being to be "going out of their way" to provide help and support in their writing process.

I've had many editors who ask me not to list them, not based on the story content, but because they think the story comes first, and they don't think they actually influenced the story itself (i.e. they didn't write the story, only cleaned up a few outstanding typos). However, even with that, I typically list between 3 to six editors in each of my books (based on how many volunteer, which is usually content based).

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

The vital distinctions is that Cast/Character List should NEVER be read, as they're NOT a part of the story.

I agree. It's for reference only, that's why I personally prefer it to be at the end. There are a few authors that abuse the cast list to add other data to it, sometimes even a short prologue or introduction. If you want to be sure your readers don't read that, then the cast list is the best place to put it ;)

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

Yet another alternative, which I experimented with in developing my Bibliogrphies, is to instead include the 'who the hell is this character' information in html < abbr > commands. This nice thing about that, is that if you paused your mouse over the name, and leave it there for a several moments, the information will pop up, providing the context.

It WAS a great alternative but unfortunately it doesn't work on touch devices, at least it doesn't on my tablet.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Nick is well known for voicing his personal opinions and has a track record of throwing his toys out of his pram if anyone dares question his opinion.

He's not the only one. It's well known that you never mention politics, or respond to anyone who does, on Gina Marie Wylie's site. She and her 'friends' dish out politics on a regular basis, but if anyone objects, they're permanently banned from her site forever! However, she doesn't restrict stories based on content (even if overly political one way or another), but simply doesn't want anyone questioning her assumptions.

It's her site, so if you contribute you, you play by her rules, but like Nick, her site has been on the slide as her health has deteriorated and her writing and participation falls off. :(

Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

Politics isn't an attempt to appeal to reason. it is an attempt to drive you by your emotion. Any reasoning you hear from any politician on any side of any fence is simply a piece of candy hiding the poison to move your emotions in the direction they want you to go.

I heatedly agree. The less said, and the fewer fights, and less anger, the better.

@Remus2


With the right team, you can make a homeless meth head a senator or do the reverse. That's the simple facts.

There has been some success with that. I seem to recall a crackhead as mayor of D.C.

That was actually the opposite, as it was a well-known and beloved Senator (Mayor?) who was captured smoking crack on a video, but had never behaved any differently in public (i.e. there was no real evident he suffered from it). Thus his 'fans' rallied to his defense, while his detracted rallied their forces against him.

He admitted he smoked it, but denied it affected his work as a Senator. Take that however you want, but given the discrepancy between crack laws and cocaine laws, most saw it as a purely 'black and white' issue.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

Anyway, Darian's not political so I need to hush and go back to the fireplace and sip my Mt. Dew.

Is that a political attack? 'D

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

Going off on people on your site without any provocation sure is curious. And curiouser.
Thanks for answering.

He specifically avoided answering, not wanting to make it a "Trump"/"Anti-Trump" issue, but in the end, it was a "my politics, and anyone else can go to hell" issue.

I actually appreciate joyR's restraint (was he even the one who started the point?) in answering your question.

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

In my eyes, every politician above a small town mayor level is dirty in one way or another.

I agree that's the pessimistic view. To me, "every" is a bit harsh because I believe I have known some politicians, from both parties, who don't fit that description. And I know you're wrong about Santa Claus. I saw him when I took my offspring to the mall last Christmas season.

Strange, but my reaction is I'm now seeing the same level of corruption in my local officials as I do on a National level (i.e. Mayors, Councilmen, Police Captains, etc.) In short, I now never trust anyone, as I think they'll all equally corrupt, but just play for a different corrupt enterprise.

Crumbly Writer

@Darian Wolfe

o speak to the actual topic of the thread, my one main gripe is an author who is a one trick pony who has basically the same theme that runs through every story.

I'll use myself as an example. In almost every story I have a younger guy chasing an older woman. Why? That was my gig. I was raised by women and I learned to associate comfort and security with older women.

We all do that. In my stories, the common thread is always someone discovers something unusual, and then applies the scientific method to figure out what's happening, and the story changes as each new clue is uncovered.

I've varied genres (rarely), and covered a wide variety of topics, but in the end, it's the same story told in somewhat different ways. I don't really write Sci-Fi stories, I write stories about the scientific method and wanna-be scientists. (And coincidentally, many of my characters end up dying, just like Marie Curie did, and for essentially the same reasons (not causes) she did too.)

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

He admitted he smoked it, but denied it affected his work as a Senator.

As a former addict to other drugs, I believe that.

The ability to reason of an addict adapts to a remarkable degree as their tolerance levels increase. The ability to maintain physical control is more limited. If others cannot see when an addict is under the influence, there's probably not much impairment going on to their intellectual capacities.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Has anyone else noticed and been annoyed by authors confusing 'shuddered' and 'shuttered'

Yeah, I shuddered as I shuttered this thread!

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I'm almost certain that both coconut water and coconut milk have been staple ingredients in cooking in South-East and South Asia since long before Europeans arrived in America.


You're absolutely correct. My thinking was based on the English 'discovering' the coconut and then 'introducing' it to both America at large and the Europeans. Thus I focused on the Caribbean as the 'birthplace' of coconuts (for those cultures) when it clearly isn't universally true.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

CW, I don't provide links. When i have a story at Sol with a cast list I now posts it so you get:

Cover
ToC
Cast List
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
etc

Sorry, I completely misread your posts on the topic, as you're doing the exact same thing that I am (posting the "Cast List" as the first chapter, and then editing and updating it as you go). I'd thought you were providing an alternative to going that route (i.e. posting the cast list as a separate document, somewhere else).

My bad (I'm having more and more of those lately).

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

You said this in a post directed at @JoyR

Sorry, but your attack here is completely unfounded

I think you've gone a bit over the top this time.

I'd say I'm more "liberal" (American meaning) than you and I cannot find anything offensive in her post.

I'm not saying I agree with it, or that I think it's relevant ... just that I see nothing objectionable.

Sorry, you're right, the language I used was completely over the top, as she never attacked anyone. What I was objecting to, was that her characterization of the original post as being a reference to 'tribal people' was unwarranted, as the original poster never suggested anything about 'primitive' people. Rather than an attack, it was a misdirected analogy, which seemed to bolster her point, but which unfairly characterizing the posts author's motives.

Once again (as I often do), I apologize for my poorly expressed point, but I won't change my initial objection (I don't think the original poster was intimating what he/she claimed).

I seriously need to spend more time composing my forum posts, but since I spit out dozens at each sitting, addressing a variety of points, I simply don't spent much time on each one. :(

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry,


So you should be, if Ross posts in my support against your response to a post of mine, be sorry because the four horsemen just saddled up..!!

your attack here is completely unfounded, as no one was describing tribal people, or suggesting an apocalyptic breakdown of governments across the globe.


Correct. I used the tribal people as an example of ignorance of the ways of others not being the same as stupidity.

However, attack seems a little over the top. Did I hit a nerve? Or should I not question your opinions/beliefs ?

Your use of "PC" in an unrelated context kind of tips your own biases.


Really? So using PC as shorthand for a particular group isn't allowed? You have no idea what my biases are, only presumptions.

I object to PC thinking as much as anyone, but those on the right are just as prone to use their own version of PC thinking as those on the right.


I never inferred 'left' or 'right' you have assumed again.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

I seriously need to spend more time composing my forum posts, but since I spit out dozens at each sitting, addressing a variety of points, I simply don't spent much time on each one. :(


Apology accepted.

Now, might I suggest using a spittoon for the first issue and a little more consideration for the second.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Keet

I have no objections to the existence of a cast list, I just hate to see a story start with a cast list. A long story with many characters even needs a cast list. Remember that although you update as you go that a lot of readers read when the story is complete and that means the cast list is complete too. Having it a the end avoids spoilers from the cast list and still has it available for reference.

That's why I followed that thought up (in a later post) about my trying to replace that initial post with a later posting of the cast list at the end, though the site makes that difficult and I often fail to do so in several instances.

That's also why I frequently include warning/disclaimers in the Cast List, warning that they're not intended to be 'read', but merely to be used if a reader get lost, and then only used to look up a single character.

The problem is, even if you don't post it until several chapters in, there's no way to put the story at the end if the story is still posting. :(

It's laudable to recognize your editors and proofreaders but it should indeed be in the end-note.

Even more importantly, the editors are NOT a part of the story, and they should not is included in the story. That's why posting them in the end-note (or in an "Acknowledgments" section in a book) works, because it separates the 'thank you' from the actual story.

Again, I was merely providing the context behind the use, based primarily on long-established publishing standards (which is how I figured out what to do myself). But again, I perfectly understand your frustrations.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Keet


It WAS a great alternative but unfortunately it doesn't work on touch devices, at least it doesn't on my tablet.


I never actually used it, although I did investigate and experimented with it. However, while it worked as advertised on my devices (primarily browsers or Apple products) I didn't do any testing on other devices (simply because I don't own any myself).

Even then, it took a while for me to figure out how it works, as you have to hover over the name/phrase for a significant time before anything pops up (i.e. lightly press on a touch device and hold, before anything occurs), and the ABBR command has never been widely used because it is so limited.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

He admitted he smoked it, but denied it affected his work as a Senator.

As a former addict to other drugs, I believe that.

The ability to reason of an addict adapts to a remarkable degree as their tolerance levels increase. The ability to maintain physical control is more limited. If others cannot see when an addict is under the influence, there's probably not much impairment going on to their intellectual capacities.

My argument wasn't intended to influence anyone's opinion of the case (or his guilt or innocence) but merely to highlight what the underlying conflicts were based on). I never voted for him, or listened to much of what he ever said, but I followed the unfolding story at the time.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@joyR

You may not be aware yet that CW sometimes makes overly literal interpretations of someone's post and heads off on a rant somewhere.

It was the disconnect I saw between your post and his response that made me sure that had happened again, which is why I made my post.

Fortunately, he's pretty good about admitting it when someone points out he's got his wires crossed again.

There's not much point explaining where he went wrong in those situations. Fuck knows who or what he was ranting at - but it was not you. :-)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


The problem (for authors) is that it's difficult replacing a cast list as the first posted chapter with a completed version at the end of the story. You've got to request that Lazeez physically delete the chapter, then wait several days until it's official and a new version won't simply update the old one.


CW, if you post the cast list as it's own chapter post at the start you can easily update it at any time by simply using the wizard to 'repost a chapter' - I do that every time I fix a typo and it gets done the next time the moderators are looking at the files.

edit to add; I don't like posting a partial list and then updating it because of the extra work involved in doing so. Also, the majority of readers will read the story after it's all up, so messing around to suit a small fraction of readers while it posts just doesn't seem a good use of time to me.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

However, attack seems a little over the top. Did I hit a nerve? Or should I not question your opinions/beliefs ?

Again, I was over the top in my response, but …

Not so much a nerve, but the analogy, while seemingly fitting, seemed more of an attack on the original poster's motives (i.e. what he was intimating, rather than what he was actually saying), and that was what I responded to. But again, I often read-between the lines, and respond to what's not said, rather than the actual words used.

Really? So using PC as shorthand for a particular group isn't allowed? You have no idea what my biases are, only presumptions.

No. I agree that "PC thinking" is a problem, and that it affects both political camps (in America, at least), but again, I saw you're using the term in reference to your assumption about when he was implying as 'telling' (i.e. it highlighted your own potential biases).

You may have meant he was falling victim to 'group think', but it sounded like you were branding him as a member of a single suspect group.

I never inferred 'left' or 'right' you have assumed again.

Yeah, I agree, I did exactly what I targeted ('attacked') you for. I made assumptions based on what I inferred from your response, to attack your supposed personal attack. But two assumptions doesn't prove anyone guilty, it just means we're all reading to much into simple statements. :(

You've never been openly political in any of you posts, but I've just been hammered by both sides so frequently here (in the U.S.) that no one seems able to say or hear anything without assuming it's a personal attack, regardless of what's actually said. It's getting so bad, that many people are openly stating "I no longer listen to the news", not because it doesn't directly impact them and their lives and their futures, but because they can't stand the people they've become, and they're actively choosing to remain ignorant of the issues rather than understanding them.

Plus, as I'll reveal when my newest chapter posts, I've been suffering from health issues which have drastically affected my writing, and often makes how I phrase my points wildly inaccurate (i.e. I'm no longer able to accurately judge what I'm saying as I write.

Again, I didn't really want to get into that here, but now that I'm beginning to turn around, I'm now able to recognize how inaccurate my writing has become (which is also why I've been avoiding many of these threads for so long).

And finally, I'm not relating this as a series of excuses, though that's clearly how I'm presenting it, but merely as a way of stating that I recognize that I'm struggling with the issues, and that I'm slowly getting better, but that it's likely to take time. :(

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

There's not much point explaining where he went wrong in those situations. Fuck knows who or what he was ranting at - but it was not you. :-)

Thanks, Ross, while it was a backhanded compliment, it actually accurately depicts my responses. :( I tend to react first, rushing to present my case, before stopping to consider how to properly argue it. (That's also why I NEVER post a story before several people edit it for me.) Unfortunately, no one is interested in editing my damn forum rants!

Replies:   Ross at Play
Remus2

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry to be a stickler for grammar, but your use of "your in" is wrong. It should be: "if urine areas of". 'D

If you are in, or your in, either works geographically. If it's literally, then yes, there are multiple places where urine is an issue. Some of those folks don't care where they take a piss or what they piss in. Up to and including town wells and reservoirs.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

CW, if you post the cast list as it's own chapter post at the start you can easily update it at any time by simply using the wizard to 'repost a chapter' - I do that every time I fix a typo and it gets done the next time the moderators are looking at the files.

That's why I followed up the initial post by explaining that we're both doing the same thing (i.e. posting an 'initial' cast list and updating it by chapter), but Keet's initial post on the subject specifically complained about that very behavior. I was initially explaining why we do it the way we do, and how it's analigous to how publisher's include the Character List in the back.

When you chimed in, saying you didn't do that, but posted the Cast List separately, I think you were stating you weren't doing what you are (and what I'd always thought you did).

Again, the fault was mine, not yours.

I don't like posting a partial list and then updating it because of the extra work involved in doing so. Also, the majority of readers will read the story after it's all up, so messing around to suit a small fraction of readers while it posts just doesn't seem a good use of time to me.

That's actually good advice, but if a cast list helps with a completed work, there's still a compelling reason to present while you're posting it. And as we've both noted, there really is no other way to post it, other than to only start at chapter 10, and then still post it at the start of the story anyway. :(

However, in my current story, virtually all the names (aside from the primary characters) are alien names, which aren't consistent in how they're composed, so the cast list becomes even more essential, as it's difficult figuring out who is who due to the unfamiliar names. (Just as an aside, I adopted a practice, with my currently posting story), to 'shorten' the alien names once an alien character transitions from 'random character' to 'secondary character', to make the names easier to remember.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

no one is interested in editing my damn forum rants!

How wealthy are you?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Remus2

Some of those folks don't care where they take a piss or what they piss in. Up to and including town wells and reservoirs.

I've spent a LOT of time in downtown Chicago and Manhattan, and in those cases, the residents and visitors care very much where everyone uses the restroom, but because real estate is so overpriced, there simply is nowhere they can go, other than in the streets. Often, there are entire regions where you literally have to walk ten to twenty city blocks (4 blocks equal a mile) before reaching a bathroom, which has predictable results. So I've stopped blaming the people guilty of it, and instead focus on where the next bathroom is at all times.

Replies:   Uther_Pendragon
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ross at Play


How wealthy are you?


Let's see, wealthy enough to splurge $2,000 on a professional editor I was never able to use, but poor enough to use the more reliable FREE volunteer editors. You pay for quality work, and as my personal experience has proven, the less you pay, the higher quality work you get, as the people actually care about the work they produce! :( Conversely, those who charge the most for 'services rendered' frequently don't give a shit about those NOT paying them top dollar!

Note: And after thoroughly embarrassing myself, and getting nothing at all accomplished all day, I'm finally going to return to my corner and once again avoid this thread in the future.

Replies:   joyR
Uther_Pendragon

@Crumbly Writer

(4 blocks equal a mile)

Not in Chicago. In Chicago, 8 numbered blocks to the mile. Many places, you have one street is numbered 700 and the next street is numbered 730, so there are 16 streets to the mile.

I'll wager that few cities have 4 blocks to the mile. It's just too far.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

and getting nothing at all accomplished all day


You did accomplish at least one thing today. You managed to earn respect.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

The problem (for authors) is that it's difficult replacing a cast list as the first posted chapter with a completed version at the end of the story. You've got to request that Lazeez physically delete the chapter, then wait several days until it's official and a new version won't simply update the old one.


I wonder what would happen if you post the cast list first as chapter 1000, then post chapters 1, 2, 3...

Would that work as a way to have a floating cast list at the end?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@joyR

The painful part, as seen with most racists and bigots is when they deliberately choose to remain ignorant so they can continue acting like an idiot.



I highly doubt that any significant number of people are so intent on knowingly acting like an idiot to the extent that they wilfully remain ignorant.


I know people who are in the camp of "refuse to learn, refuse to listen" because they know they're right, and probably also in large part because they don't want to be wrong.

More specifically in the "Don't want to be wrong" part, that usually is because they've "done things" based on those pre-existing views and beliefs in the past that they're already not comfortable with, and challenging the basis under which those actions(whatever they were) happened to have been taken threatens a large proverbial house of cards.

Basically, they're willfully ignorant because they know that if they become educated, they're going to have a hard time looking at themselves in the mirror. So they chose to risk being viewed as an idiot rather than face their past.

Much more likely that someone's perception of their actions and beliefs brands them as ignorant and acting like an idiot. That might well be a valid perception, but is it any more valid than that of the ignorant acting idiot?


A true idiot is incapable of understanding the true significance of what they did, or a number of other factors related to it. Someone who is simply ignorant has the capability of understanding, even if they presently lack possession of said understanding.

"Forgive them, for they know not what they're doing."

Edit to add: IMHO, there are a number of activists who likewise are probably going to be, if they haven't already, hitting that point themselves. Where they've crossed a proverbial line in their mind from which they're going to fight very hard not to go back. Because they were so adamant in their activism and their activities in pursuit of it, that simply contemplating they were backing the wrong side becomes out of the question.

We could hope they at least back off on encouraging others from following in their footsteps, but I'm not that hopeful as to think that is going to happen.

Replies:   joyR  Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

They can always change their minds later, as many do, but if you wait until they are legally capable of deciding for themselves, they'll never fit in, whether they transition or not.


That presumes that medical technology doesn't find another way to address the issue in the interim. "Never" is a very long time. Although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take that to mean "highly unlikely to be able to fit in within our lifetimes" instead. As I know exactly what you're talking about, onset of puberty results in the dimorphic traits of the relevant genders to start presenting. For someone who intends to transition to another gender, it is best for the intervention and transition to happen before that starts to happen.

Which makes it suck that children are hitting puberty as early as 8 or 9 at an increasingly common rate. That's way too early for such a decision to have be made.

Tangent: Almost provides impetus for finding a means to delay puberty for all children until they're 18 and able to provide more informed consent. Of course, if nobody is hitting puberty until 18, that means the physical issues with intimacy just got pushed back a number of years as well, which means Age of Consent laws re: sex would have to be evaluated once more. :)

...And I don't envy the poor souls who'd have to endure puberty as a 20-something.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

Due to the last flurry of posts on racism I wish to say two things:

1. I think we can all agree racism and all forms of bigotry are wrong,

2. What's worse are those who declare anyone who dares to disagree with their view point as a racist bigot.

The second group are worse than the first because they totally kill the opportunity to discuss and deal with racism and bigotry, and they actually encourage racism and bigotry by their refusal to look at anything but their indoctrination.

Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

The second group are worse than the first because they totally kill the opportunity to discuss and deal with racism and bigotry, and they actually encourage racism and bigotry by their refusal to look at anything but their indoctrination.


They're the newest groups of idiots to enter the scene. Only most of them "should" know better, but obviously can't be bothered to realize it. They're too busy demonstrating to themselves and others just how sympathetic they are towards the victims to pay attention to anything else.

They're as bad as the holy rollers. Actually, they're the exact same thing, only their first allegiance isn't aimed at a deity.

Replies:   PotomacBob
sharkjcw

@joyR

check this out

https://graphtreon.com/creator/nickscipio

$6,715.00 per month

Ranked #1 in Adult Writing, 323 overall. He's doing something right.

Replies:   joyR  Crumbly Writer
Wheezer

@Crumbly Writer

although for sci-fi sagas with undecipherable names, the need is even more pressing since readers are often unable to make sense of the names.


That's another thing that will make me avoid a book. If the names need a pronunciation guide, I'd rather not bother.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
joyR

@sharkjcw

$6,715.00 per month

Ranked #1 in Adult Writing, 323 overall. He's doing something right.


Indeed, because 1,583 followers give $4.26 each (average). Although there appears to be a significant drop that coincides with his recent tantrum.

Personally I don't agree with the view that profit=right, nor with profit=wrong, right and wrong need to be judged on factors other than profit/loss.

Either way I wish him luck, if he continues the tantrums, he will need it.

joyR

@Not_a_ID

I know people who are in the camp of "refuse to learn, refuse to listen" because they know they're right, and probably also in large part because they don't want to be wrong.


That sounds like an accurate description of some of those adhering to a number of religions.

I can understand why you choose to describe such people as idiots, I just don't agree that idiot is the correct term, mostly because it's a slur against those who are truly idiots.

It's not hard to find people who have done something which at the time they felt justified in doing, only to experience remorse and/or regret later. Admittedly many feel that remote/regret only after being caught.

Maybe it's time that their remorse/regret was made overtly public, shown especially to those who could best learn from it..??

Replies:   anim8ed  Not_a_ID
anim8ed
Updated:

@joyR


I can understand why you choose to describe such people as idiots, I just don't agree that idiot is the correct term, mostly because it's a slur against those who are truly idiots.


Personally I prefer ignoramus

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

I think we can all agree ... and all forms of bigotry are wrong


Nope - disagree.

I think men and women should have equal rights, and I refuse to accept the validity of other opinions.

That makes me a bigot and I'm proud of it.

AJ

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

I think men and women should have equal rights,


And remember, some have harder hitting abusive lefts than others.

joyR

@awnlee jawking

I think men and women should have equal rights,


I don't agree.

I think everyone should have equal opportunities, but have to earn their rights.

For example, you shouldn't get to go to university because it's your right, but because you studied hard at school.

You shouldn't get hired or promoted to fill a quota because of your sex, you should be hired or promoted because you are the best person for the job.

Our current society has far too many members who believe they have rights to things they never earned, just because of their sex, colour, creed, whatever.

Rights, like respect, have to be earned or are meaningless.

Or to put it another way, a gentleman opens the door for a lady, a man won't open the door for a woman because she can do it herself. Both are right.

Ernest Bywater

@joyR

Or to put it another way, a gentleman opens the door for a lady, a man won't open the door for a woman because she can do it herself. Both are right.


I love a line from one of the Clint Eastwood movies. He's faced with a large loudmouthed and abusive woman, and he says, "I've never hit a lady in my life." As the woman smirks he adds, "But you're no lady," and kapow right in the kisser to flatten her.

That's the second best line in a film I've every seen.

The best is from a John Wayne film, I think it may have been True Grit. Wayne moves in on a camp site with a loaded shotgun and gets the jump on the men there. One of them is of African-American (I hope that's the current correct term) heritage, and he's slowly reaching for a gun. Wayne point the shotgun his way while saying, "I ain't got a bigoted bone in my body. I'll blast a black man to hell as fast as I will a white man."

I love 'em both for the way they show a totally level playing field on those subjects.

Not_a_ID

@joyR

That sounds like an accurate description of some of those adhering to a number of religions.

I can understand why you choose to describe such people as idiots, I just don't agree that idiot is the correct term, mostly because it's a slur against those who are truly idiots.


Go back and see how I have presented this. Up until that last post(and even then), the first descriptor used is ignorant, with the follow-up being "present themselves as idiots."

Their views are idiotic, but they exist as a consequence of ignorance, not idiocy. But because the views are idiotic from the perspective of the informed, it makes them appear as idiots.

Sorry, in some respects this is me channeling Stalin and his "useful idiots" attribution. He was an evil man, but even devil's speak (carefully framed) truths when it suits their goals. IMHO, my usage of the term matches Stalin's, the "useful idiots" are actually mentally incompetent. They're more than competent enough(that's why they're useful), they just happen to ignorant of what they're actually doing(working towards their own detriment rather than betterment).

Maybe it's time that their remorse/regret was made overtly public, shown especially to those who could best learn from it..??


Very bad idea, horrifically bad idea, for either side to pursue. At least if done involuntarily, nothing good can come doing such a thing involuntarily. Putting someone up on a public stockade would almost be preferable and that was banned for a reason too.

Replies:   joyR
Keet

@joyR

I think everyone should have equal opportunities, but have to earn their rights.

For example, you shouldn't get to go to university because it's your right, but because you studied hard at school.

You shouldn't get hired or promoted to fill a quota because of your sex, you should be hired or promoted because you are the best person for the job.

Our current society has far too many members who believe they have rights to things they never earned, just because of their sex, colour, creed, whatever.

Rights, like respect, have to be earned or are meaningless.

Or to put it another way, a gentleman opens the door for a lady, a man won't open the door for a woman because she can do it herself. Both are right.

Hear, Hear! Exactly as it should have been. Forced diversity is the worst kind of discrimination nowadays.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
richardshagrin

@awnlee jawking

I think men and women should have equal rights

There are some things biology refuses men. The right to have a baby, the carrying for nine months and giving birth experience, for example. Not sure that is a loss for men, but there are differences between men and women. I don't think they want to go to the same latrine with men. I am ok with equal rites, for things like funerals.

John Demille

@awnlee jawking

I think men and women should have equal rights, and I refuse to accept the validity of other opinions


I think you left part of that line; the most important part actually: Men and women should have equal right AND equal responsibilities.

Sadly our society has degenerated so that women have more rights and way way less responsibilities. For example, in the US men have to sign their life away for the right to vote, women have the right to vote, period.

It is a tricky business with having equal rights between men and women in a gynocentric world. Women outlive men by an average of 7 years, and yet we care more about women's health and spend way more money on women-particular issues. For example breast cancer vs prostate cancer. More men die from prostate cancer than women die from breast cancer. Do you ever see a prostate cancer fund raising drive?

Generally, because of them living longer, women outnumber men in late stages of life, when they are more politically interested, so they have a bigger voting block than men and to top it off, women tend to have more in-group preference as women and they vote as women, not as individuals like men. Most men don't vote for other 'men', they vote for their favourite candidate who can be a woman. But many women vote for other women because they have a vagina. That alone give women more power.

Women get treated way better in courts, especially when the judge is male because males are psychologically very inclined to protect and help women. So for the same crime and motivation for a man and a woman, the man tends to get double the sentence compared to a woman.

There is no easy solution to this dilemma. How do you mitigate the advantage that women have to keep society balanced? The west is now being torn apart because of this. A man's life could be torn apart and his future totally ruined with a mere accusatory utterance from a woman in tears 'he touched my butt thirty two years ago'!

Women outnumber men 150 to 100 in universities right now and all you hear is there aren't enough women in STEM. Women have gotten more degrees than men every year since 1982. Boys struggle in school because of a girl-centric curriculum, and yet, there are huge women supporting departments in every educational institution in the west.

Have you heard of 'The Wing' women club? They have six locations in the US and are expanding to the UK. When was the last time that men were allowed their own club? They got sued out of existence for sexism and discrimination. In Canada it is illegal, literally, to have a men-only space of any kind. If you dare mention in a license application the words 'men only' in Canada, you get threatened with legal action immediately. You're not even allowed to think about it. And yet we have countless gyms and fitness centres that are proudly declared women only and society doesn't bat an eye.

Didn't California just mandate outright sexism against men in boards of directors of public companies recently?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@John Demille

I think you left part of that line; the most important part actually: Men and women should have equal right AND equal responsibilities.


Well yes, but I was trying to keep it simple.

AJ

Replies:   John Demille
awnlee jawking

@joyR

I think everyone should have equal opportunities, but have to earn their rights.


I think we have the same intent couched in different language.

I didn't mean that men and women should be regarded as equal in every respect - that would be defying nature. But I like your university example - men and women should have an equal right to higher education based on ability - facing a competition for places, they have to show they're more capable of benefiting from it than their peers.

IMO some rights should be conveyed automatically. Eg men and women should have an equal right to pre-natal care - provided they're pregnant. Men and women should have an equal right to screening for breast, cervical and prostate cancer, provided they have the requisite breasts, cervix and prostate (I'm sure there are thousands more examples.)

AJ

Replies:   Not_a_ID
awnlee jawking

@joyR

Or to put it another way, a gentleman opens the door for a lady, a man won't open the door for a woman because she can do it herself. Both are right.


I open doors for everyone, young, old, men, women, black, white ...

Luckily nobody has yet complained, and some have even thanked me.

AJ

Replies:   joyR
John Demille

@awnlee jawking

Well yes, but I was trying to keep it simple.


Well, the thing that's driving this society to where it shouldn't go is that everybody focuses on rights and chops away the part about responsibility. All you hear is 'I have rights!!!' 'I'm oppressed' 'gimme gimme gimme' and nobody wants to shoulder their share of the responsibility.

The responsibility part should go back to being the focus of the conversation as it seems to always fall by the wayside. You have rights, yes, but you should justify those rights by taking responsibility for your share.

joyR

@richardshagrin

The right to have a baby


WHAT ??!!

Since when did the ability to have a baby become a right? It's a biological ability. NOT a right.

joyR

@Not_a_ID

Very bad idea, horrifically bad idea, for either side to pursue


Why exactly? Not shocking enough for prime time? Only want to show those being brainwashed into wearing or placing an IED? Of course you'll want to show the resultant carnage, with warnings of course, slo-mo, repeats, every angle possible?

But to show someone responsible actually admitting he was wrong, feeling remorse, oh no, that can't possibly be allowed.

Why?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

There are some things biology refuses men. The right to have a baby


In the UK, a pregnant biological-woman self-identified as male before giving birth, leading to a legal case of whether the person can identify themselves as father on the birth certificate. (The person has expressed an intention to undergo gender-realignment surgery.)

AJ

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@awnlee jawking

I open doors for everyone, young, old, men, women, black, white ...

Luckily nobody has yet complained, and some have even thanked me.


So you're a gentleman.

Which can't be said of those who didn't thank you.

awnlee jawking

@joyR

I thought you lived in nanny-state UK where every woman has the right to three rounds of IVF, according to NICE. Fortunately (since we're so overpopulated) or otherwise, the NHS is so dysfunctional that applicants are rarely granted more than one.

AJ

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@awnlee jawking

In the UK, a pregnant biological-woman self-identified as male before giving birth, leading to a legal case of whether the person can identify themselves as father on the birth certificate. (The person has expressed an intention to undergo gender-realignment surgery.)


Which is about as sane as the The Indiana bill #246 of the 1897 sitting of the Indiana General Assembly.

joyR

@awnlee jawking

I thought you lived in nanny-state UK


I do, that does not mean I approve, condone, or agree with any of the utter lunacy so prevalent here.

joyR

Back on topic for a change.

Authors who don't check their story description for errors.

If the description has spelling and/or grammar issues, I presume the story is as bad and usually skip it.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
StarFleet Carl

@joyR

WHAT ??!!

Since when did the ability to have a baby become a right? It's a biological ability. NOT a right.


About the same time someone decided that we have more than two genders, with the very rare but still possible hermaphrodite as a third.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@StarFleet Carl

About the same time someone decided that we have more than two genders, with the very rare but still possible hermaphrodite as a third.


Ok, time I booked a table at the restaurant at the end of the universe.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

Men and women should have an equal right to screening for breast, cervical and prostate cancer, provided they have the requisite breasts, cervix and prostate (I'm sure there are thousands more examples.)


Men can get Breast Cancer, the incidence rate is low, as one of the major verified factors is amount of breast tissue present in the first place, the more you have, the greater the risk. Which at first glance isn't bad for guy. Until you realize that dude with a 46 inch chest measurement(and "normal" body fat) probably has as much or more(!) breast tissue than a woman in a 30 inch B cup bra.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Not_a_ID

@joyR

Why exactly? Not shocking enough for prime time? Only want to show those being brainwashed into wearing or placing an IED? Of course you'll want to show the resultant carnage, with warnings of course, slo-mo, repeats, every angle possible?

But to show someone responsible actually admitting he was wrong, feeling remorse, oh no, that can't possibly be allowed.

Why?


Do note: I said involuntary application of that idea is horrible. It basically is what some groups are attempting to do already right now. All the involuntary approach does is foster entrenchment and resentment from the very people you're trying to get to change their ways. It is very counter productive.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Not_a_ID

Do note: I said involuntary application of that idea is horrible. It basically is what some groups are attempting to do already right now. All the involuntary approach does is foster entrenchment and resentment from the very people you're trying to get to change their ways. It is very counter productive.


Involuntary in what way?

The person feels remorse/regret but does not want to appear in public?

Or

The person does NOT feel remorse/regret but is somehow forced to appear so?

Some groups?

All the involuntary approach does is foster entrenchment and resentment from the very people you're trying to get to change their ways.


If you read the post you'll note I never referenced the persons peer group as those the example was aimed at. His peers opinions are probably already polarised. The younger generation(s) not so much. They would benefit most from a balanced view coming from one of their own. Which is exactly why those groups do their best to keep their kids segregated and taught only their views, a balanced education will destroy any extreemist regime. Not my opinion, history provides many examples.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
awnlee jawking

@Not_a_ID

Which at first glance isn't bad for guy.


When men get it, diagnosis takes significantly longer than for women with consequently poorer outcomes.

GPs aren't taught to expect breast cancer in men so the symptoms are often misdiagnosed as temporary muscular-skeletal problems :(

AJ

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
awnlee jawking

@joyR

Ok, time I booked a table at the restaurant at the end of the universe.


Go to the loo before you get there because the chances are you won't be able to interpret the symbols on the doors ;)

AJ

Replies:   joyR
awnlee jawking

@joyR

Authors who don't check their story description for errors.

If the description has spelling and/or grammar issues, I presume the story is as bad and usually skip it.


I concur that it's a red flag, but story descriptions are rarely vetted by spellcheckers or proofreaders so the actual story might be a pleasant surprise.

AJ

Ava G

@joyR

Since when did the ability to have a baby become a right?


Read about Fannie Lou Hamer and the Mississippi Appendectomy. In Jim Crow Mississippi, white doctors often sterilized Black women without their consent.

Also, there's the case of Doe ex. rel. Tarlow v. District of Columbia, when two women sued the District of Columbia MRRDA for performing abortions on them, even though they objected to them, and their legal representatives were never consulted. Brett Kavanaugh ruled that, since the women never had the mental capacity to consider whether or not to have an abortion, it was not a violation of their rights for them to have undergone a forced abortion.

The right of certain people to have children has long been contested.

joyR

@awnlee jawking

Go to the loo before you get there because the chances are you won't be able to interpret the symbols on the doors ;)


Too easy..!!

I just wait until Hotblack Desiato goes, then use the other door.

Simples..!!

Replies:   madnige
joyR

@Ava G

sued the District of Columbia MRRDA for performing abortions on them, even though they objected to them, and their legal representatives were never consulted


A long time ago the legal system had a 'test' for those accused of witchcraft. The ducking stool, used to drown the accused.

If she drowned, her innocence was proven, if she lived, she was obviously a witch.

Isn't it comforting to see just how far our legal systems have progressed since those 'dark ages' ..??

Replies:   madnige
madnige

@joyR

I just wait until Hotblack Desiato goes, then use the other door.


Aren't there more than just two restrooms in Milliways, to cater for non-sexed or vari-sexed customers such as superintelligent shades of the colour blue, or ravenous bug-blatter beasts of Traal who are currently in the guise of a pair of size nine chukka boots?

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@madnige

Aren't there more than just two restrooms in Milliways


Yes, you are absolutely correct, however, I just don't want to share a bathroom with Hotblack..!!

madnige

@joyR

Isn't it comforting to see just how far our legal systems have progressed since those 'dark ages' ..??


Monty Python and the Holy Grail got it right...

Ernest Bywater

@Ava G

Also, there's the case of Doe ex. rel. Tarlow v. District of Columbia, when two women sued the District of Columbia MRRDA for performing abortions on them, even though they objected to them, and their legal representatives were never consulted.


The worst part of that was what they did was legal under the law, and the judges had to rule based on the law not what they feel is the right thing to do.

StarFleet Carl

@awnlee jawking

When men get it, diagnosis takes significantly longer than for women with consequently poorer outcomes.


I'm probably one of the few men on here who do regular tests while in the shower, feeling for those lumps.

Of course, I'm also one of the longest living testicular cancer survivors in the world (over 34 years - my doctor in Indiana is the one who came up with what is now the standard treatment for this), and my wife is a lymphatic breast cancer survivor. So for some reason, we pay REAL close attention to fun things like this.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@StarFleet Carl

I'm also one of the longest living testicular cancer survivors in the world


I'm glad you and your wife are still around to tell the story.

AJ

Not_a_ID

@joyR

Do note: I said involuntary application of that idea is horrible. It basically is what some groups are attempting to do already right now. All the involuntary approach does is foster entrenchment and resentment from the very people you're trying to get to change their ways. It is very counter productive.



Involuntary in what way?

The person feels remorse/regret but does not want to appear in public?

Or

The person does NOT feel remorse/regret but is somehow forced to appear so?

Some groups?


Remorseful, but doesn't want to speak out is a different matter. I'm speaking more about the ones in a more indeterminate state. Which is a lot of the "willfuly ignorant" types in most respects, they suspect what they've been doing is wrong. As such they should undoubtedly be feeling remorse about whatever it is they've done, but they're avoiding learning more in order to avoid facing the consequences--with themselves, no need to worry about anybody else needing to get involved.

The "problem" is when people start getting confrontational about it, forcing people into

1) Having to confront the very thing they've been actively avoiding for quite some time.
--Which is all well and good, I'm not objecting to that part.

Except the people who are forcing that confrontation aren't happy with just achieving that.

After having identified someone in that group, willing participant or not:

2) They then go about "making a public example" of the person(s) in questions.

Not just stopping at getting them to say "I was mistaken, and I didn't understand what I was a doing. Don't go down that road." Or other such things to comparable effect. Nope, they want karmic justice, and they want to be that agent of karma.

Problem with being "an Agent of Karma" is that Karma is a bitch, and Karma knows what the true balance of the scales was. You don't, no human does. In exacting that proverbial pound of flesh in retribution/atonement, they're often tilting the scales in the other direction.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and fixing an imbalanced scale by making things equally imbalanced favoring the other side simply encourages a swinging pendulum, not a balanced scale.

Which brings us back to "Don't force public penance" on anybody for a social wrong, if they volunteer for it great, otherwise leave them the *bleep* alone so long as they're doing the same for others.

This also isn't to mention the progression to:
3) Where the pressure to "burn the witch" (or warlock?) hits the point where it becomes preferable to "confess" immediately and plead for mercy rather than try to fight the accusations, even if you had nothing to do with whatever it is they want you to confess to.

If you read the post you'll note I never referenced the persons peer group as those the example was aimed at. His peers opinions are probably already polarised. The younger generation(s) not so much. They would benefit most from a balanced view coming from one of their own. Which is exactly why those groups do their best to keep their kids segregated and taught only their views, a balanced education will destroy any extreemist regime. Not my opinion, history provides many examples.


Sadly even the public schools are starting to fail miserably at the "balanced" part of their job. Many areas are holding out reasonably well, but the sense it that most are lost in the weeds somewhere. "The Barbarians" are inside the proverbial city walls already, and have even set up encampments inside many of the Colleges and Universities. ;)

Of course, I guess it could be a heretic monkey instead, but I'm not so sure. (Or are heretic monkey comments now somehow racist as well? Popular media does seem to want to conflate every "humanized reference" to primates as being an allusion to a reference involving black persons these days)

Historically, that was why such groups often sought out a mono-culture that they could live with. In many cases even founding new communities in the pursuit of such aims. Except as history also teaches us, short of rather totalitarian measures being put in place, that typically lasts at most 1 or 2 generations, if that, as other people tend to follow along behind the "founding group(s)."

Which brings us to the era of "Diversity for diversity's sake" and monoculture is now evil and to be fought at all costs and anybody who would seek out such a thing is abnormal and demonstrating aberrant and abhorrent behavior that needs to be scourged from history. (There is much scourging of the history books that will need to be done on that one)

The real irony is watching these advocates pushing for a "diverse multicultural society" which is employing a methodolgy that results in a monocultural outcome. All they'll manage to do is tear down a few barriers between racial/ethnic heritages and groups(and create new ones along the way). But history "is boring" and we're living in the Information Age which means we're "beyond history" now.

....Just like a number of other failed groups over the centuries thought they were.

Replies:   joyR  PotomacBob
joyR

@Not_a_ID

Which brings us back to "Don't force public penance" on anybody for a social wrong, if they volunteer for it great, otherwise leave them the *bleep* alone so long as they're doing the same for others.


(My bold)

If they were in fact leaving others alone, they would have nothing to regret/repent for. (Leaving aside thought crimes etc)

However, most of what you are saying I agree with, and before this heads in the direction of 'no politics' and since it's entirely off topic anyway, I'm out.

(Yes I know going way off topic is basically a religion here, but I'm being a good girl, not that that'll last long...)

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@joyR

If they were in fact leaving others alone, they would have nothing to regret/repent for. (Leaving aside thought crimes etc)


Leaving others alone in the here and now, as opposed to say 20+ years ago, or hell, 10 years ago on some things.

Leave the past in the past, and let sleeping dogs remain that way. Waking them up to danger in their backyard is the last thing you want to do. You leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.

PotomacBob

@Ernest Bywater

Not ALL charges of racism and bigotry are false.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
PotomacBob

@Not_a_ID


They're as bad as the holy rollers.


There were people in my home town who everybody else called "holy rollers." They were a religious sect who were do-gooders (they paid for a large orphanage) and they sang music with a beat good enough for dancing (But I don't think they actually danced), and they were strict in the upbringing of children, but I never heard them called racists, even though, as far as I can remember, their church was all white (as were most of the churches in our town.) That makes me suspect that the people you call holy rollers are probably not the same group I knew about. Care to enlighten us with a more specific identification?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
PotomacBob

@joyR

if he continues the tantrums, he will need it.

There are other possibilities. Maybe those who pay him money agree with his positions. Or maybe the tantrums are on a different site than where he posts his stories for money. I do not know Mr. Scipio, and I don't actually care what he posts on his own website. Nobody makes me visit his website.

Ernest Bywater

@PotomacBob

Not ALL charges of racism and bigotry are false.


True, but 99% of such charges made as a blanket charge are, and over 90% of the modern charges against individuals are false. Way to often a charge of racism or bigotry today is in reality a charge of "You don't agree with me" and nothing more.

Replies:   joyR
PotomacBob

@Ava G

Doe ex. rel. Tarlow v. District of Columbia,


The way I read the citation you provided, the women did not object, they were never consulted. DC argued there was no need to consult the women because they had never had the ability to make health decisions for themselves (Certified so by medical authorities and there were no families or religious superiors or friends or anybody else available to make the decision for the women.) the opinion written says all those facts were undisputed.
So if the women have never been capable of making those decisions for themselves, and there are no family members or other trusted advisers to make the decisions for them, who should make the decision? Kavenaugh's opinion, if I read it correctly (and I'm no lawyer), says when all those conditions are met, the city (under the provisions of its law) was correct in making the decision for them.
I suspect (but do not know) that the women were also unable to make a decision about whether to file a lawsuit, and somebody else did that on their behalf.

Remus2
Updated:

big·ot

ˈbiɡət/Submit

noun

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.


By that definition, there are a hell of a lot more bigots around than people realize.

PotomacBob

@Not_a_ID

Sadly even the public schools are starting to fail miserably at the "balanced" part of their job.


I don't understand which side you say the public schools are taking. Are our public schools for the practice of burning witches or against it?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
joyR
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


True, but 99% of such charges made as a blanket charge are, and over 90% of the modern charges against individuals are false. Way to often a charge of racism or bigotry today is in reality a charge of "You don't agree with me" and nothing more.


The problem is made worse because the answers are not just black and white.

ETA

Maybe this should have been posted in your joke thread?

Not_a_ID

@PotomacBob

I don't understand which side you say the public schools are taking. Are our public schools for the practice of burning witches or against it?


Both, depending on where you live. And also variable depending on if you're talking about literal witches, or proverbial ones. :)

There are public schools where conservative teachers are a
clear majority, although they're becoming increasingly rare. The are plenty of public schools where "liberal" teachers are a clear majority, and they set the tone for those schools. There are more moderate ones as well I'm sure, but that's a very difficult line to walk in this day and age.

Not_a_ID

@PotomacBob

There were people in my home town who everybody else called "holy rollers." They were a religious sect who were do-gooders (they paid for a large orphanage) and they sang music with a beat good enough for dancing (But I don't think they actually danced), and they were strict in the upbringing of children, but I never heard them called racists, even though, as far as I can remember, their church was all white (as were most of the churches in our town.) That makes me suspect that the people you call holy rollers are probably not the same group I knew about. Care to enlighten us with a more specific identification?


"Holy roller" in the context I used is a bit older in usage I think. If I had to guess, it is a reference to traveling/roving ministries and religious revivals in particular. Basically "back in the day" where the clergyman involved typically would literally "roll into town" in their wagon, spend a few days/weeks giving their sermons and proselytizing until moving along on their circuit.

A more modern iteration has a connotation more on the order of "holier than thou" school of busy body who is very loud and proud about how devout they are in adherence their take on God's Doctrines. They'll make sure everybody knows exactly how devout they are, and just how fallen everyone else's condition is.

Replace devotion to God with dedication to "Social Justice" or "Racial Equality" or "Insert #Buzzterm Here" and you essentially have the 21st Century version of the Temperance movement.

Replies:   anim8ed
anim8ed

@Not_a_ID

In other words just another person raising themselves up by putting everyone else down.

Crumbly Writer

@Uther_Pendragon

I'll wager that few cities have 4 blocks to the mile. It's just too far.

Again, you're correct. Manhattan has a very unique definition of a block (very long in one direction, and very short in the other), and since their streets don't run consistently north and south, or east and west, it's difficult to specify which is the short and long ends.

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

You did accomplish at least one thing today. You managed to earn respect.

That you, that's encouraging, as it was my retractions and apologies that generated it, rather than my often-times 'off-based rants'.

It's not that I'm trying to be a blowhard, it's just that I often go off half-cocked. (no sexual puns required, as we all get the point without being reminded.)

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

I wonder what would happen if you post the cast list first as chapter 1000, then post chapters 1, 2, 3...

No. I've discussed it with Lazeez, and they have no way of creating a 'floating' chapter that moves as the story unfolds. Instead, they immediately place a chapter at a specific point. Since there's no last chapter (as there is an end note), our only option is to put it at the beginning of the book and then delete it and a couple of days later (so the system 'forgets' about it), repost it at the end once the story completes.

When I'm writing a story, I'll often include the epilogue and define it (within the document) as "chapter 99", since I never known until I complete the first draft how many chapters I'll have at the end.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

IMHO, there are a number of activists who likewise are probably going to be, if they haven't already, hitting that point themselves. Where they've crossed a proverbial line in their mind from which they're going to fight very hard not to go back. Because they were so adamant in their activism and their activities in pursuit of it, that simply contemplating they were backing the wrong side becomes out of the question.

That's one reason why, although I'd adamant about my stands, I'm also quick to apologize when I get things wrong. Because I'm continually reading the latest science trends (and not just the latest 'studies'), I'm well aware of what we 'know' at any given point is time is quite frequently completely false. If we aren't capable of backing up, and re-evaluating where we stand on occasion, we're forfeited our humanity for an empty moral position.

On insist on what I do, because it's what makes me comfortable in my own skin (i.e. my striving to use the correct writing techniques, or to make my books as 'professional', as I can). But if I later learn that I was mistaken, that same 'sense of self' that allows me to define myself isn't threatened, I can simply 'update' my understanding and move on.

In short, my moral positions aren't absolute, but my supporting those being hurt by others actions are. If it turns out I've been mistakenly hurting them myself, I'm pretty quick to back off and change my ways.

However, even I'll admit that's an unusual way to live one's life.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

As I know exactly what you're talking about, onset of puberty results in the dimorphic traits of the relevant genders to start presenting.

Not to berate the point, since we're in agreement here, but more specifically, that' the age where the changes become less about the current hormone levels, and become 'permanently' encased in their bone structures. (i.e. it's 'permanent' only until we learn how to 'regrow' every bone in a person's body). While that makes for an interesting question is a sci-fi story, it's a pretty definitive point in someone's life.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The second group are worse than the first because they totally kill the opportunity to discuss and deal with racism and bigotry, and they actually encourage racism and bigotry by their refusal to look at anything but their indoctrination.

The best (or at least the most relateable) explanation I've heard for this is when someone described it as "acknowledging the 'elephant in the room'". What sets people off on these shouting matches, is when one side argues that something is definitely wrong, and the other side simply denies that anything is amiss (and this typically happens to each side of an argument, depending on when the political context when it's first proposed). The one side 'attacks' and calls the other names because they refuse to acknowledge the issue in the first place (and thus are 'guilty' of perpetuating it, even if they're not actually guilty of acting on those issues themselves).

Unfortunately, that argument never gets anyone any closer to convincing anyone, but it's a decent description of why both sides of an argument frequently go off the rails.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@sharkjcw

Ranked #1 in Adult Writing, 323 overall. He's doing something right.

I don't doubt it, but that's not my objection to bloggers. Blogging is where creativity goes to die, and yet it pays, as they earn more is ad views and page hits that they ever could by actually writing another book.

That's why they're so motivated to update their blogs daily (lest their viewers forget about the site), that they simply can't be bothered with writing new fiction.

I don't mind those authors calling themselves Bloggers, but they generally hang up their author hats when they do. They may still write, but their hearts just aren't in it on a daily basis.

Of course, keep in mind that I don't earn thousands of dollars from writing (in blog, print or ebooks) every month, and continue on in continual obscurity with little hope of achieving commercial success. :( So you can all make of that what you will.

Crumbly Writer

@Wheezer

That's another thing that will make me avoid a book. If the names need a pronunciation guide, I'd rather not bother.

That's why my current stories are such a challenge. Normally, with an alien culture, you simply need to state how their language varies and how the syntax for the names varies. But in my story, where you're not dealing with a single species, but with thousands, the only 'naming convention' is that there IS no consistent naming convention. That's why, once a character moves from a 'tertiary' character to a secondary, I give them 'conventional' name. Thus Mryzzl becomes "Myi", Sisslistr becomes "Siss", just as my primary characters started out as "Al", rather than Albert, and "Be", rather than Betty.

The names readers need to remember are relatively easy to remember, those they don't need to track aren't.

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Either way I wish him luck, if he continues the tantrums, he will need it.

Ha-ha. Like me, it's not his occasional rant, or even his underlying views that damn him, but his vehemence with which he defends himself.

We can forgive a wide variety of sins, but a refusal to ever concede they're mistaken is often a bridge we're not willing to cross just because someone once produced a book or movie we once liked. :(

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Hear, Hear! Exactly as it should have been. Forced diversity is the worst kind of discrimination nowadays.

The point (in those misguided restrictions) is that they were never intended to be permanent, but merely to give minority members an 'equal' opportunity, as most where never given the option before.

However, the pushback doesn't correct the imbalance, it typically only restores the previous imbalance. The recent removal of 'racial quotas' were ruled Constitutional (in America, at least) because someone who's wealthy enough to purchase the very best education wasn't given the exact same value as those who had to struggle to get the scores they did.

What's worse, when they revoked many of those policies, the standards immediately returned to what they were originally (i.e. blacks are automatically discriminated against), despite the repeated protests that "there's no evidence the original problems continue to exist in the modern day".

The problem isn't that the desire to correct an imbalance is misguided, or that the 'laws' and setasides are 'unfair', but that we're seemingly incapable for formulating any meaningful changes in how we treat any minority, and thus we never get any closer to 'equal' justice.

And frankly, I have no clue how we can get any closer. :(

Replies:   Keet  Not_a_ID  Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

There are some things biology refuses men. The right to have a baby, the carrying for nine months and giving birth experience, for example. Not sure that is a loss for men, but there are differences between men and women. I don't think they want to go to the same latrine with men.

Again, it's mostly a generational thing. Most young kids (pre-teens to late twenties) are comfortable with concepts like 'gender fluidity', while their parents and grandparents are forever locked into antiquated notions of binary "male" and "female" roles.

It's not like all lesbians wear army books, or that all straight women wear dresses, or even that all gays are 'flamers'. Instead, it's that the younger generation simply doesn't 'buy into' the same assumption which defined the earlier generations.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

What sets people off on these shouting matches, is when one side argues that something is definitely wrong, and the other side simply denies that anything is amiss (and this typically happens to each side of an argument, depending on when the political context when it's first proposed)


While this is true, the issue I was raising is where one person or group absolutely refuse to even let you speak to say anything except "Yes, Sir / ma'am." Their attitude is "if you don't agree with me on everything, then you're a racist and a bigot." This is their answer even when the question is as simple as, "Do you think it will rain later?" To them you either agree with them or you're a racist and a bigot.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Again, it's mostly a generational thing. Most young kids (pre-teens to late twenties) are comfortable with concepts like 'gender fluidity', while their parents and grandparents are forever locked into antiquated notions of binary "male" and "female" roles.


CW,

You just committed the major problem with this whole argument. You're melding roles, attitudes, and behaviours into the same ball as biology.

From a natural biological point humans come in male - female - neuter - hermaphrodite. Nature doesn't provide any other options

From a behavioral and psychological point of view every damn person is different. Some people may even be at psychological odds with their physical biology expectations.

While different societies have different roles they prefer, that's a totally different issue to the biology.

The last two are open for evaluation, discussion, change etc. while the first is decided by nature. Yes, science is getting to the point it can change some of the first, but they haven't yet gotten to a completely operation change over.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

The problem isn't that the desire to correct an imbalance is misguided, or that the 'laws' and setasides are 'unfair', but that we're seemingly incapable for formulating any meaningful changes in how we treat any minority, and thus we never get any closer to 'equal' justice.

Sorry, but what is the problem with an imbalance? There are reasons that imbalances came into existence. Some might seem unfair but most are quite logical. There are way more men then women in technical jobs. Why? More men are interested in that field of study thus the market for technical employees is mainly male. Why force businesses to employ more women if the best candidates are men?
Try and find a male teacher in kindergarten or middle school. Almost all are women. Why? Several reasons: women are generally more child oriented then men. Another important reason is that nowadays men are scared to hell having a job with children. They prefer to study for a 'safer' teaching job in higher education levels.
Sure there are some imbalances that seem unfair. Immigrants here in Europe have a difficult time finding a job. Why? The most common reason is inadequate language skills: they just don't speak the native language to fit the job.
Sure, there are instances of discrimination but not as much that is requires laws to force equalization. Just prosecute real discrimination.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

What's worse, when they revoked many of those policies, the standards immediately returned to what they were originally (i.e. blacks are automatically discriminated against), despite the repeated protests that "there's no evidence the original problems continue to exist in the modern day".


Uh what? IIRC, in most cases, those minority spots that would have gone to a Black, or Native American, under the quota system in turn often wound up going to persons of Asian descent instead. Restoration of racial quotas by various means at many college/university campuses likewise in turn tended to result in reductions of Asian enrollment. Somehow, the Caucasian contingent seems to remain reasonably stable regardless. So saying the system is biased in favor of whites in general against ALL minority groups is a bit of a misnomer.

At least until you realize that many "Minority rights activists" consider Asians to be White.

Remus2

At least until you realize that many "Minority rights activists" consider Asians to be White.

That by itself is racist.

Not_a_ID

@Keet

Try and find a male teacher in kindergarten or middle school. Almost all are women. Why? Several reasons: women are generally more child oriented then men. Another important reason is that nowadays men are scared to hell having a job with children. They prefer to study for a 'safer' teaching job in higher education levels.


Or sexual harassment/assault/molestation charges. Being a male teacher in a classroom with age 13 or older young women is operating in a uniquely dangerous environment. As they often find themselves on the receiving end of young nubile feminine wiles exploring their sexuality/sensuality on the male authority figures in their life. Yes, the female teachers have the young men to contend with, but the social stigmas/pressures/views are very different in that respect.

That and young males don't bring a lot to the table, biologically or otherwise. While evolution just loves fertile females in general.

Sure, there are instances of discrimination but not as much that is requires laws to force equalization. Just prosecute real discrimination.


This is basically where I'm at. Although there are definite challenges in enforcing such things, because things are often so highly subjective and context sensitive that short of having a camera on you 24/7 documenting every interpersonal interaction you ever have, its often hard to definitively demonstrate one way or the other unless someone is being particularly overt about it.

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

The problem isn't that the desire to correct an imbalance is misguided, or that the 'laws' and setasides are 'unfair', but that we're seemingly incapable for formulating any meaningful changes in how we treat any minority, and thus we never get any closer to 'equal' justice.


The Native Americans are perhaps the most illustrative example out there for racial issues and poor handling. It also is very uncanny how the Blacks seem to have fallen down into the same proverbial rabbit hole as the Native Americans did AFTER "LBJ's Great Society" initiative rolled out, even despite SCotUS having given them Brown vs the Board of Education(IIRC), among other important civil rights decisions.

The Blacks in the United States appeared to have been in an upward and onward trajectory from the 1940's into the 1960's. Then the Great Society comes along, all progress stops, and they began to regress, rapidly.

Now they might as well be Native Americans without a Sovereign Reservation of their own where they have rights to build a Casino among other things.

Of course, I also hold LBJ was a highly racist person, and what he did was one of most subtly racist things ever accomplished in the modern era.

NATURE always takes the path of least resistance, and humans are not immune, and he provided a very low-resistance path for Blacks to fall into. And did they ever.

PotomacBob

@Not_a_ID

Wow!

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@PotomacBob

Wow!


...And somebody is going to call that sentiment racist. But as somebody who grew up next to a reservation, had tribal members as classmates, and on down the list their situation is even more twisted and complex than the one the Blacks are contending with.

Racial quotas and "opportunity" programs also tended to fail utterly at their intended objectives. Even worse in their case as they don't need welfare to get a guaranteed income, unlike the blacks. The worst part was the academic underachieving that was rampant amoung them(and the mere fact they were at my HS and not the reservation school made them more ambitious than most), as the reason was "Why stress myself out over this stuff when it doesn't matter anyway? I can get D's across the board and get full ride tuition to any University I want to attend."

Too bad effective study habits start before you get to the college/university, not after... And not even knowing the HS material to start with just puts them that much further behind.

But nope, the activists say their poor academic performance is the result of centuries of ruthless oppression by European immigrants and decades of thoughtless care since. The only solution is more programs giving them an even easier "path to success" as it clearly remains "too hard" even now.

That isn't to say prejudice and racism isn't a problem even for the tribes and their members, because it very much is(and a LOT of truly horrific things were done to them by our government). But at this point an ever increasing amount of blame belongs to the tribal membership themselves in their squandering the opportunities that have been practically handed to them.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can curse out the cowboy all you want "for neglecting the horse" but some things are outside their control.

Replies:   rustyken
StarFleet Carl

@Not_a_ID

Of course, I also hold LBJ was a highly racist person, and what he did was one of most subtly racist things ever accomplished in the modern era.


I don't think there's much holding that needs done, your comment pretty much is completely accurate.

rustyken

@Not_a_ID

I see the purpose of racial quotas as obstructing equality. From my perspective we should focus on equal opportunity thus you succeed on your merits. The reason for quotas is due to the fact that some are short changed in receiving an education. This has many contributors some of which are unmotivated teachers; parents will little interest encouraging their children to study; school administrations that focus on metrics rather than learning; and the list goes on.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@rustyken

I see the purpose of racial quotas as obstructing equality. From my perspective we should focus on equal opportunity thus you succeed on your merits.


That's all true, the down side of quotas is I've seen it stop business expansion as to expand they have to hire more staff and that puts them into the size where the government mandated quotas apply. Being in an area and industry where it's extremely difficult to get properly qualified people and meet the quotas too, it's a lot easier and cheaper to keep below the business size where the quotas kick in.

Similar problems occur every time the government sticks it's nose into business operations.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@Ernest Bywater

it's a lot easier and cheaper to keep below the business size where the quotas kick in.


I also suspect in some cases that a group of partners who own a business near that size might chose to legally dissolve the partnership and split the original company into two or more smaller non competing ones.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@AmigaClone

I also suspect in some cases that a group of partners who own a business near that size might chose to legally dissolve the partnership and split the original company into two or more smaller non competing ones.


They might, the few I know of were either owner operated or two person partnerships. The laws here didn't apply the quotas until after you had a certain number of employees (I forget the exact figure) and it often proved more financially viable to pay over time than hire the extra staff to put you into the size that gets monitored and having to fill in the extra paperwork. I know one person actually encouraged some prospective clients to go to another small firm than take on the extra work so they could stay under the cut.

In a similar vein when the unions got the government to pass a law making any part-time who did 20 hours or more a week for more then 6 months be hired as permanent part-time thousands of part-time and casual staff were laid off after 5 months work and then hired back again 6 weeks later, and those sort of deals became a rolling event. All the law did was ensured those who could least handle being out of work only worked 5 months out of every 6 because of the extra government on-costs of permanent- part-time workers made them too expensive to hire. If the work load increased enough then more full-time staff were hired, but part-timers filled a specific gap that was now being closed by over regulation. That was 20 years ago and it hasn't improved since.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Ernest Bywater

All the law did was ensured those who could least handle being out of work only worked 5 months out of every 6 because of the extra government on-costs of permanent- part-time workers made them too expensive to hire.

That's what made the temp agencies big. Temp agencies shouldn't be needed since they currently do nothing more then help companies to circumvent the temp labor laws. The only result is that temp labor got way more expensive for companies. The laws were also the reason that 0-hour contracts were invented. Thus, where the laws were created to protect employees they did nothing more then make it worse in most cases.

Remus2
Updated:

I spent a good portion of my youth 'in/on' a reservation, not next to it. Life sucked when you were a half breed. Not white enough for the whites, not red enough for the full bloods, nor fitting in with an other group but other half breeds. From the latter group, I have two life long friends. We call ourselves humans.

It is a mistake to paint all tribes with the same brush. Or for that matter, all of any race likewise. Not every Indian was held back by the government. The same applies to any other race.

At some point in time, a person has a critical decision to make in their youth. Some humans have to fight harder to succeed. It's not right, but it is what it is. So do you roll over and play the victim, or do you fight?

The idea of being underprivileged only carries so much water. If a person doesn't fight for themselves, who or what will they fight for?

I never asked for, nor accepted a hand out due to my genetics. Yet I've seen many of all races/ethnicities, genders, etc throw up their hands after dropping the victim card on the table. I can't think of a single one of them that didn't end up living a miserable life.

There is no equality nor fairness in the world. The belief in those sentiments ranks right up there with believing in Santa Claus. Roll over and play dead, or fight to succeed. A binary solution is all there is when you peel the bullshit back.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Remus2

There is no equality nor fairness in the world.

No offence intended, but most of your underprivileged kinfolk drew a winning ticket in the lottery of life by being born in North America rather than Africa.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2

@Ross at Play

You have no clue what you're talking about, nor any real idea what most of my 'kin folk' have dealt with past or present.
History in a book often does not mirrors reality. Especially so for history written and approved by the same government 'benefactors'.

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