Home » Forum » Author Hangout

Forum: Author Hangout

Figuring this place out

RedCzar

Hello All,

I'm fairly new here and trying to figure out all of the little details of this site. So, apologies if there is a better place for me to ask this.
I see a number of comments on stories saying it got 20 "1" votes, or 15 "7s".
How do you know that? I've found the graph with the bars and so on but that doesn't list how many of each level. Is there a place that I"m missing? (there's usually a place that I'm missing)

Oh, and what is TOC?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Just call me noob

Ernest Bywater

@RedCzar

Oh, and what is TOC?


Table of Contents

The bar with the most votes has a number beside it giving that number. From that you can estimate how many votes you got of the other numbers by comparing them.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The bar with the most votes has a number beside it giving that number. From that you can estimate how many votes you got of the other numbers by comparing them.

Keep in mind, in order to steal a 1-votes outsizes influence when your other scores are all in the 7 to 10 range, the top and bottom 5% are invisible and don't affect your overall score. That means, for each 1-vote that's erased, you'll potentially lose a full 10 vote. Thus you never see the total number of votes, and that's by design. However, it's a relatively recent change, so many of us know what frequently happened before, so we speak about 1-bombs as if we could still see what we no longer can.

Confusing I know, but ...

Replies:   Switch Blayde
RedCzar

Thank you!
And yes I understand the 1 bombs. That was my primary reason for leaving another site.
Generally I don't care much about the votes, I was just wondering how they knew, "oh this story had 20 sevens" etc.
Still a lot here I have to learn/learn to use.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

That means, for each 1-vote that's erased, you'll potentially lose a full 10 vote.


It also means for every 7-vote you get (assuming it's the lowest), you'll lose a 10-vote. I never considered that when I thought the dropping of the top and bottom 5% was a good idea. I was thinking 1s and 10s being dropped.

I believe it's a mistake to not show the author the scores that are dropped, but it's a result of people complaining. it's valuable information that we can no longer see.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


you'll lose a 10-vote


He would lose 5% of the low and high ends.

In your example of 7 being the lowest vote and depending on the total number of votes and their distribution, 5% of the low end could be 7's and 8's and 5% of the high end could be 10's and 9's.

edited for clarity

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@REP

He would lose 5% of the low and high ends.


Yeah, but I was always thinking 1s and 10s would drop off. Those are the ends. But when your low scores are 7s, you lose 10s along with the 7s. Those are high-end 10s lost by not-so-low 7s.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I believe it's a mistake to not show the author the scores that are dropped, but it's a result of people complaining. it's valuable information that we can no longer see.

As an ex-amateur statistician, I've always found meaning in the outlier points on a graph, rather than looking where 60% of the observable point sit. In my case, I'm more concerned with the two or three one votes, as they tell me more than the 60% who think my stories are wonderful. Instead, those few extraneous point help explain why certain people find your stories unreadable.

Though, truth be know, my 1-bombers weren't typical. Normally, someone sees a story topic they dislike, try to punish the author and never reads the story because they hate the subject matter so much. In my case, ALL of my one bombers were regular readers of each of my stories, as they'd respond to each chapter within one to two days of their posting. The only thing they objected to were a fairly minor political issue in the story, and they were trying to send me a message by 1-bombing every single one of my stories (of course, I completely ignored their message once I figured out what it was, but it was nice knowing where those votes came from).

In other cases, I've used those outliers to discover why a third of my readers despised a particular character, while a third loved her, while the rest didn't really worry about it so much. But knowing what was driving so many readers, I was able to acknowledge the issue, buying myself some time, and I was able to rectify the issue before the story concluded.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

As an ex-amateur statistician, I've always found meaning in the outlier points on a graph


I agree. Unfortunately, a few complainers ruined it for the rest of us.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
REP

@Switch Blayde

Assuming the story got 10's which is very likely if the lowest score is 7.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

I agree. Unfortunately, a few complainers ruined it for the rest of us.


Going on the number of active authors bitching about 1 bombers way back then, it was a heck of a lot more than just a few. There was almost as many authors bitching about fanbois 10 bombing their favourite authors regardless of the quality of the story. So it made sense to make the change. At the time I had some very detailed stats available and worked out how they would affect the averages of my stories, and found it so negligible it was worth worrying about it. However, like all of the scoring system, you can please everyone. But the change did reduce the complaints about 1 bombs and fanbois, so it did what it was intended to do.

Michael Loucks

@Ernest Bywater

But the change did reduce the complaints about 1 bombs and fanbois, so it did what it was intended to do.


By simply hiding them from the authors. When you have to resort to such tactics, it's a pretty strong indication something much larger is wrong...just MHO,

Ernest Bywater

@Michael Loucks

Michael,

The system cuts the top and bottom 5% of votes and doesn't use them in calculating the score. By doing that it meant the fanbois and 1 bomber votes are eliminated from the score, which was the aim because that's what the people complaining were bitching about the most and the noisiest. It was all due to some people not lodging proper votes on stories and some authors bitching about that process, so Lazeez came up with a way that was a compromise to calm everyone down.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Going on the number of active authors bitching about 1 bombers way back then, it was a heck of a lot more than just a few.

I agree with you. Sure, it's taken away our ability to whine about our scores, but more importantly, it's taken away all the 1-bombers ability to make a point by tanking someone's score. If no one knows your protesting, what's the point? A protest is only effective, if the people you're protesting eventually do something about it. Silent protests are an oxymoron.

RedCzar

So statistically it would make sense that your highest score should always be that center bar.

Looks like I stirred up a real hornets nest here!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@RedCzar

Looks like I stirred up a real hornets nest here!

This topic has always been a hornet's nest. Personally, my biggest complaint about the scoring isn't that I lost 5% of my highest votes, it's that a ten-point system gives an unfair advantage to a simple vote of 1, because there's so much discrepancy (value difference) between 1 and a medium vote of 6. Besides, most readers aren't knowledgeable to differentiate the difference between a 3 and a 4, so the distinctions are negligible anyway.

I hate to say it, but Amazon's 4 star system is more equitable, as a simple 1 vote has an effect, since producers can readily see it, but it doesn't really affect the overall score nearly as much as it does on a ten-point score. What's more, no one has to worry about what the difference between a 6 and a 7 score is. You either Love it (4), Hate it (1), mildly dislike (2) or kinda like it (3). That's easy for casual readers to grasp. SOL is about the only internet site using a full ten-point scoring system, and there's really no reason for it.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Michael Loucks

@Ernest Bywater

I didn't say it wasn't a solution to something, I simply said hiding data is a sign that something much larger is wrong (i.e. a topic which our esteemed webmaster will no longer discuss).

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
Ernest Bywater

@Michael Loucks

(i.e. a topic which our esteemed webmaster will no longer discuss).


For which I don't blame him because he got well and truly fed up with the bitching, as did many of us.

sunkuwan

I was just generally bitching about that site because its name came up ;)
Man, the stories on that site could be masterpieces, but the site is a mess.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@sunkuwan

... the stories on that site could be masterpieces ...

Some are masterpieces, it's just very difficult to find them.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

By doing that it meant the fanbois and 1 bomber votes are eliminated from the score,


But I have no 1-bombers on my latest story. So I keep losing a 10 every time someone scores it a 7. So the 10s should be higher than the 9s, but they're not because the 7s keep chopping them off.

Oh wait! How do I know I don't have any 1-bombers?
I don't.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

it's taken away all the 1-bombers ability to make a point


Not at all. They know their 1-bomb will take away the top score. That's all they care about.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


SOL is about the only internet site using a full ten-point scoring system, and there's really no reason for it.


A reader doesn't give a story a 1 or 10. They choose the description that best describes the story's appeal to them. The 10-choice scale works for that.

ETA: It's authors who are hung up on the numbers.

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
awnlee_jawking

@Switch Blayde

They choose the description that best describes the story's appeal to them.


If they did that, there wouldn't be a problem.

AJ

robberhands

@awnlee_jawking

If they did that, there wouldn't be a problem.

And which problem is there? Or I better ask, what is it that you perceive as a problem?

REP
Updated:

@Michael Loucks


hiding data is a sign that something much larger is wrong


I think you are right. There is something much larger that is wrong, but it is not Lazeez's scoring system. Personally, I don't care for the scoring system but it is what it is and I live with it.

The larger problem is the readers. The rating system is supposed to be about the story, not the author, and not all stories deserve a 10. But we have readers that have posted comments to this Forum saying that they give all stories a 10 because the author put in a lot of time and effort into writing the story. Stop and think about that from a different perspective. If a car manufacturer put a lot of time and effort into designing a car and the result was an unsafe vehicle with a history of the occupants being severely injured or dying in accidents - would you buy it? I wouldn't.

Then we have the readers who always give their favorite authors a 10; even if the story doesn't deserve that high of a rating.

Lazeez's scoring system is an attempt at compensating for the ratings given to stories by the readers who follow these types of voting patterns.

As far as Lazeez not wanting to discuss the topic, I don't blame him. Not everyone is happy with the scoring systems he has put in place. No matter how he might modify the current system, there would be a group who would not be happy with the change. There is no scoring system that will satisfy everyone and he is tired of discussing the topic.

awnlee jawking

@REP

You can add to that the problem of readers not voting if they don't like a story.

To borrow from your example scenario, that's the equivalent of owners buying a car and hating it because it's always breaking down but not providing feedback to warn other potential customers.

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
Switch Blayde

@awnlee_jawking

They choose the description that best describes the story's appeal to them.

If they did that, there wouldn't be a problem.


I was replying to the comment that the 10-scale system is too many because a reader can't differentiate between a 3 and 4.

They don't have to. They choose "pretty bad" or "not good" which gets converted to a 3 or 4, respectively.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

Can we please drop the scoring discussion because it's going no where again. The current system was developed over more than a decade in the best way they could resolve the complaints about the scoring system made by people. Each change has been an improvement, and it's gotten to the point many people aren't interested into going over it again.

What's important to remember is the system affects every story in the same way and to the same extent. The system does also keep the story scores in the same relationship to each other.

robberhands
Updated:

@REP

Stop and think about that from a different perspective. If a car manufacturer put a lot of time and effort into designing a car and the result was an unsafe vehicle with a history of the occupants being severely injured or dying in accidents - would you buy it? I wouldn't.

The next time I buy a story from SOL and drive it into a tree I'll think about your argument more intensely.

Seriously, it all boils down to 'I know better how to properly score a story'. But that's not the point of the scoring system. It simply reflects a story's appeal to the readers ... and then an algorithm adjusts the readers appeal.

Replies:   REP
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

You can add to that the problem of readers not voting if they don't like a story.

90% percent of the readers don't vote. Do you think they all dislike the stories they read?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
RedCzar

For what it's worth, I'm fine with the scoring system. I was just curious how any knew they had this many 5s or that many 9s.

As long as no one can bomb my story with 50 negatives in an afternoon just to tank it, because it was doing better than their story. I'm fine.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@RedCzar

I was just curious how any knew they had this many 5s or that many 9s.


There are two ways one is accurate and one is a guess.

The bar graphs has the number of votes beside the highest number of votes, so when you look at that bar it has the number beside it. So if your largest vote number is the value of 8 it has a vote count beside it of 150 votes. If the bar for the value of 7 is half the height of the 8 value you can estimate the count for the 7s as being 75 votes.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

... the stories on that site could be masterpieces ...

Some are masterpieces, it's just very difficult to find them.

Try searching for some names you recognize, you might be surprised. Unfortunately, you really can't search, and you've got to examine each category separately to determine what's buried there.

robberhands

I would LOVE to see some Indian, Muslim or South African authors, not to mention the many non-white Americans who are out there trying to make a name for themselves, but with the current scoring penalties, we're unlikely to ever attract them.

Which scoring penalties does an Indian, Muslim or South African author have on SOL?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Not at all. They know their 1-bomb will take away the top score. That's all they care about.

No, they're either protesting a particular story, or they're trying to punish the authors. But, if the authors don't even know that they exist, what's the friggin' point?

I assume my regular 1-bombers are still there, because they always read every one of my stories, despite the 1s they left each time, but they won't reach out after the last time I tried to compromise and they started issuing demands on what I had to say in my stories. If they want a given story to say something specific, then write your own damn story!

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Then we have the readers who always give their favorite authors a 10; even if the story doesn't deserve that high of a rating.

And again, SOL had a three point 10-point scoring system that readers couldn't process, but rather than making it an easier to grasp system, we simply reduced it to a single 10-point scoring system that readers still aren't qualified to judge. Voting a story up or down is preferable to forcing someone to judge between a 7 and an 8 on the basis of quality.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I was replying to the comment that the 10-scale system is too many because a reader can't differentiate between a 3 and 4.

Except, the 1-bombers aren't scoring on how much they like a story, instead they each have their own agenda. They either want you to only echo what they want to hear, or they'll seek out stories they'll never read—based entirely on the story description—and punish the author by 1-bombing their every story to drive them away from the site.

@Ernest

What's important to remember is the system affects every story in the same way and to the same extent. The system does also keep the story scores in the same relationship to each other.

Except, it doesn't. Instead, it treats every older white male author the same, unless they write about the wrong topic. The problem with ANY scoring system, is that it promotes bullying and bigotry, rather than promoting quality writing.

The scoring system we have now is likely the best we can ever hope for, but it's still far from perfect because we have nearly zero minority authors on the site. Everyone writes from the exact same cultural perspective, so all the stories ultimately sound alike. Some fresh blood just might shake us all up and open new avenues in story telling. Just read some of the many stories being written by the up-and-coming Indian authors (most of whom are writing in English).

Replies:   Switch Blayde  REP
Switch Blayde

I would LOVE to see some Indian, Muslim or South African authors, not to mention the many non-white Americans who are out there trying to make a name for themselves, but with the current scoring penalties, we're unlikely to ever attract them.


Huh?

Why does the scoring system penalize them?

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

90% percent of the readers don't vote. Do you think they all dislike the stories they read?

That's a hard assumption to validate. Most of my readers will reread my stories five or more times, so you can't base your assumptions by total reads vs. total readers who reply. (In general, your total download counts are meaningless nonsense anyway. They're only meaningful when comparing stories.)

Replies:   robberhands  PotomacBob
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Which scoring penalties does an Indian, Muslim or South African author have on SOL?

Basically, the basic scoring by the existing readers doesn't encourage new voices to speak up. Instead, someone complains 'this isn't my usual type of story' or more often 'how DARE anyone write about another culture' and they're soon chased from the site with a combination of low scores and hate mail. We haven't had enough Pakistani authors on the site to make a valid evaluation, but I've seen gay authors who, when I suggest SOL, swear they'll never return under any circumstances based on the reactions they had to their very first postings (by the way, most were well-received the the book loving gay marketplace.

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

That's a hard assumption to validate.

That's not a hard assumption, it's an estimation. Even if you object the 90% estimation, the fact remains that the vast majority of readers don't score the stories they read.

Replies:   REP
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

You're mixing the scoring system and the reader reaction on SOL. That's two totally different things. If the readers on SOL don't appreciate stories from Pakistani authors it has nothing to do with the scoring system.

Furthermore, you assume the 'old white men' on SOL will penalize minority stories without giving any evidence to support your assumption. To not appreciate particular stories is a far cry away from penalizing a story. You can't force anyone to like something.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

The scoring system we have now is likely the best we can ever hope for


My comment (complaint?) had nothing to do with the scoring system. It had to do with not being able to see all the raw numbers. They're meaningful. If an author can't stand to see a 1, don't look. Why punish the rest of us?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

but I've seen gay authors who


That's probably because they wrote MM, not because they were gay. Just as you'd like to force the pedo authors off the site regardless of their race or nationality. A Muslim or Indian author writing MM would be treated the same as a white male author.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@RedCzar

I just checked the bar chart on one of my stories.
Each bar has the number of votes on the top (excluding the top and bottom 5% votes). So there's no guessing.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I just checked the bar chart on one of my stories.
Each bar has the number of votes on the top (excluding the top and bottom 5% votes). So there's no guessing.


I'd like to see that implemented for every author.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

I'd like to see that implemented for every author.


If you agree not to complain about the scoring system you will see it.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
RedCzar

@Switch Blayde

I don't get that. Perhaps it's a premium member thing? I havn't quite achieved that status yet.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@RedCzar


I don't get that. Perhaps it's a premium member thing? I havn't quite achieved that status yet.


No.

Over the years, there has been a lot of bitching over the scoring system. The dropping of the top and bottom 5% was actually implemented due to it.

Because of the bitching, Lazeez, the webmaster, said enough is enough and hid the raw data that is used to compile the final score. Some of us said we would really like it. He said that whoever promises not to bitch about the system will be able to see the raw data (not seeing the 5% dropped came later when more people cried about the 1s).

Premier is for readers. There is no such thing as a Premier membership for authors. Authors can earn a Premier membership, but it's for the readers.

So, have you figured this place out yet? LOL

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@RedCzar

By the way, the scoring system is actually good. It's evolved over the years to what it is today.

Most of the problems with the scores are how readers use the system. Of course "problem" is subjective.

As someone said, if a person stops reading a story because they don't like it, they probably won't vote. That means when people do vote it's with a score that's in the high range. That skews the scores so Lazeez implemented something in the system to counter it. If readers had behaved differently, that wouldn't have been necessary.

Then there are what's referred to as the 1-bombers. They may not like the author. They may not like something in the story, like MM sex. They might not like the political view of the story. They may want to lower scores of every other author so their stories move up. Who knows why? I don't think I ever saw a story on SOL that was so poorly written that it was a "You call this a story!?"

Then there's the appeal rather than the technical merits of a story. As I said, "problems" is subjective. The scoring system is designed around how the story appeals to the reader. So if MM stories get scored lower because they don't appeal to the SOL readers, the scoring system is working when authors stop writing MM stories.

Generally, long stories score higher than short stories. That's what the readers want so the authors writing that are rewarded. The scoring system is working the way it's designed.

ETA: I just wish I could see all the raw scores, even those dropped as the top and bottom 5%. I don't really watch scores, but when I write a new story I do check it. For me, the raw scores are more valuable information than the calculated score. If you have a score of 5, two votes of 5 means something different than one 1 and one 10.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@robberhands

It simply reflects a story's appeal to the readers


There are many readers who rate stories on appeal. Unfortunately there are many who rate the story because of the author or some other reason other than story appeal and quality of the writing.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
REP
Updated:


a largely meaningless 3 stars


What is more meaningful? 3 out of 5 or 3 stars out of 5 stars. The average of all the ratings can be expressed as 4.5 or 4.5 stars. It really doesn't make a difference if you use numbers or stars.

red61544

I think we can all agree on several things:
1) There will always be 1-bombers.
2) There will always be 10-bombers.
3) Most authors believe their story deserves a 10, and, therefore
4) We will never have a scoring system that pleases everybody.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

judge between a 7 and an 8 on the basis of quality


The rating is express using words not numbers. The words used evoke a gut feel that a reader can identify with based on the story's appeal. The reader doesn't have to know what a 7 and 8 stand for.

Switch Blayde

@REP

Unfortunately there are many who rate the story because of the author


I once took the time to give an author feedback. It wasn't nasty, but it pointed out some things he was doing wrong. The next day all my stories received a new 1 vote.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Crumbly Writer

every older white male author the same


Unless I know the author, their penname doesn't tell me anything about their age, race, or sex.

ANY scoring system, is that it promotes bullying and bigotry, rather than promoting quality writing


That depends in part on the author. A poor score could indicate the author needs to improve their writing skills, which if listened to might help promote good writing.

The majority of the authors and readers on this site live in English speaking countries that have similar cultures. I would expect the authors to write from the same basic cultural perspective.

REP

@robberhands

Out of curiosity I took the number of votes on 3 of my stories and used the download count of the stories final chapter as the number of readers and then averaged the 3 percentages.

What I got was 15% of my readers voted. Not totally accurate but a good approximation and a larger sampling would produce a more accurate value.

sunkuwan

If you know the quirks and kinks of a site (authors and readers) and adjust the score for yourself you can absolutely depend on the scoring. Sometimes you have to drop half a point or more, sometimes you have to add half a point or more.
Long series always get better scores and stories with some special kinks always gets lower scores. Some genres do better in scoring, some do worse, regardless of quality.

And the more stories an author posts, the less likely it is that the individual score of a story reflects the real score it would get on its own "merit". There is always a certain percentage that vote for the overall "legacy" of the Author and not on the individual story, as long as it doesn't deviate that much from what fans expect.
Could be bad for authors who want to experiment with stories.

REP

@Switch Blayde

Each bar has the number of votes on the top


On my bar chart there is only one number and it is at the far right of the bars. What theme do you use or is there a setting we are overlooking to get numbers for each bar?

Replies:   Switch Blayde
REP

@Switch Blayde

Vindictive people are everywhere. :(

Switch Blayde

@REP

What theme do you use or is there a setting we are overlooking to get numbers for each bar?


Lazeez turns it on by author. If the author agrees not to complain about the scoring system, he turns it on for them.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

You're mixing the scoring system and the reader reaction on SOL. That's two totally different things. If the readers on SOL don't appreciate stories from Pakistani authors it has nothing to do with the scoring system.

No, I'm saying, that with a site which gives readers such power to discourage authors, and then equipping them with power of 10 normal voters by voting a 1 instead of merely a single star for stories they dislike, you're equipping the homophobes, racists and misogynists with the power to bully, harass and get away with it.

My 'evidence' is based on having seen it play out with several minorities, but certainly not all, after all, these are vast generalizations, rather than absolutes. But my assumptions are backed up by the almost complete absence of said minority groups. Chances are, if they hear of SOL and come to investigate, they'd leave pretty quickly.

The penalizing, by the way, is the very 1-bombing we're discussing. You don't need 80% of the readership to discourage insecure newbie authors, all you need are a small handful who are vicious, and give them the proper sized stick (the 10-point scoring system), and you're good to go.

That's what I mean, the scoring system gives a small minority an outsized voice. But ... I haven't spoken to any gay or black authors since the 5% rule went into effect (every one I knew left the site long before that).

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

My comment (complaint?) had nothing to do with the scoring system. It had to do with not being able to see all the raw numbers. They're meaningful. If an author can't stand to see a 1, don't look. Why punish the rest of us?

I agree, but because I know I'm incapable of biting my tongue, I refused to ever sign the pledge that I'd never complain about the scoring system in order to gain access the a few more of the numbers. But then, I tend to obsess about the details that no one else is bothered by (most people obsess about their own scores, while I enjoyed my 1-bombing fans, back when I could still see what they were doing).

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

That's probably because they wrote MM, not because they were gay. Just as you'd like to force the pedo authors off the site regardless of their race or nationality. A Muslim or Indian author writing MM would be treated the same as a white male author.

That's exactly my point. The issue isn't whether a Muslim can write the same 'white man beds thousands of women' fantasies the rest of us do, it's whether they're free to write stories (whatever the subject) that reflect their perspectives. What you're suggesting is, if a gay Muslim never tells anyone he's a gay Muslim, he'll never have a problem online ... until he makes the mistake of complaining, and then he deserves it?

As for my rant about the pedo authors, I've stated repeatedly, I don't object to those authors, as they serve a very important role. The issue is when they threaten to upset the balance of the site. I've LOVE if we had a small but vocal gay, pedo, Muslim and Indian population of writers. And if and when they're successful, they'll make it okay for more to step in and be accepted (i.e. they'll both earn readers trust and coach everyone who follows how to avoid flame wars). The problem I was objecting to was a sudden inset of lost pedo authors, such as the rush which essentially doomed ASSTR.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Each bar has the number of votes on the top (excluding the top and bottom 5% votes). So there's no guessing.

That's because you promised the boss man that you wouldn't bitch about scores. Something I chose not to do, so I only see one set of numbers, like most new authors since the change was instituted.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Generally, long stories score higher than short stories. That's what the readers want so the authors writing that are rewarded. The scoring system is working the way it's designed.

Your summary is spot on, Switch. My problem, is I'm not really crazy about the power distribution. I'd rather minimize the harm while keeping the benefit, thus I prefer a 4-star system rather than a 10-point system. With 4-stars, a 1-star might infuriate the author, but it's unlikely to drive an entire class of authors/readers from the site.

But ... I've ranted enough. Everyone knows my objections by now, and I've got nothing to gain by continuing to complain, so I'll quit bitching. No one's going to listen to my lone dissenting vote, so as you say, it's the best system we can get.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I once took the time to give an author feedback. It wasn't nasty, but it pointed out some things he was doing wrong. The next day all my stories received a new 1 vote.

In that case, I wouldn't object, because it's apparent the reader doesn't want to hear the truth, either in story form, or in regards to their opinions. In which case, they'd HATE my stories, regardless of the story topic. 'D

I like listening to readers, as they have valuable information authors need to hear, but once they start dictating what I (or other authors) are allowed to write, I get my back up and double down, just to spite them.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

The majority of the authors and readers on this site live in English speaking countries that have similar cultures. I would expect the authors to write from the same basic cultural perspective.

My point exactly. Those who don't (both readers and authors), don't spend much time here, and frankly, I miss hearing different perspectives. Instead, the site ends up sounding like an echo chamber. True, some of the echos are better than others, but they're all repeating the same basic stories.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

What I got was 15% of my readers voted. Not totally accurate but a good approximation and a larger sampling would produce a more accurate value.

Now that's a more accurate figure, because it's based on the first posting of the final chapters (fewer 'read-ahead' false counts), and avoids the misleading story re-reads. Good job, REP. That's using you noggin'!

Replies:   robberhands  PotomacBob
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

I haven't spoken to any gay or black authors since the 5% rule went into effect (every one I knew left the site long before that).


Serena Jones. Black. Female.
She's still active on SOL.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@REP

Out of curiosity I took the number of votes on 3 of my stories and used the download count of the stories final chapter as the number of readers and then averaged the 3 percentages.

What I got was 15% of my readers voted. Not totally accurate but a good approximation and a larger sampling would produce a more accurate value.

I used the lowest individual chapter download count instead of the last chapter download count, which may explain why I came to a slightly lower percentage estimate - 10% instead of your 15%. However, no matter whether the percentage of non-voters is 90%, 85%, or maybe even a mere 80%, it is the vast majority.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Now that's a more accurate figure, because it's based on the first posting of the final chapters (fewer 'read-ahead' false counts), and avoids the misleading story re-reads. Good job, REP. That's using you noggin'!

You made me laugh. Thank you.

Ernest Bywater

I see the scoring circle continues unbroken, again. Since it's all been said, I'm out of here on this one.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

I see the scoring circle continues unbroken, again. Since it's all been said, I'm out of here on this one.

If you are bored, you can open a new thread and lament about liberal snowflakes or the danger of a socialist revolution.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Serena Jones. Black. Female.
She's still active on SOL.

Hmm. Guess she stopped participating in the forum then. I'm curious she didn't respond to my latest story, since she helped create it. It's probably because it took so long, over two years, for me to actually do anything with it (three separate edits with a couple years in the middle with an utterly worthless edited version).

Of course, I could always email her. DUH!

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

However, no matter whether the percentage of non-voters is 90%, 85%, or maybe even a mere 80%, it is the vast majority.

In my case, all of my counts over the years were based on the accumulated counts (I stopped remembering individual chapter counts after my first couple stories). But by my misguided calculations, I came to 97% non-participation. That show just how many times people reread our stories over time, as they rarely comment after their initial read.

awnlee jawking

@red61544

3) Most authors believe their story deserves a 10


If that's true, they should enter them into story-writing competitions and submit them to publishers.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I think it's difficult to differentiate between observations and complaints. I'd like to be able to see raw scores and I'd like totals over each bar of the graph. However I like to make observations on scores and voting patterns even more and, on occasion, they have proved useful to admin.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

If that's true, they should enter them into story-writing competitions and submit them to publishers.


AJ,

Go have a good look at the rules for most of those competitions. Some require you to pay an entry fee, some require that you submit stories never posted anywhere before, some require you let the organisers publish them in a book about the entries without paying you royalties, some only accept from authors in print by a recognised publisher, and some require you submit via an agent. Give me a ling to one where they don't demand a fee, or the right to print without a full royalty or an agent and I'll consider it. I've looked at a few dozen competitions I've seen advertised, and many are more like con jobs than anything else while the rest don't offer anything at all.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Some of those points are true, yet there are a number of free-to-enter competitions around and a number of websites/forums/twitter feeds etc dedicated to publicising them so there isn't really any excuse.

Getting short stories published, in whatever form, is considered a significant step on the way to becoming a recognised author. The BBC's National Story Writing Competition, for example, isn't actually open to the nation but only to authors who have had work at least one work published in one of a select list of publications, most of which hold competitions.

But the point, which I failed to make, is that most authors don't really think their stories deserve 10s, but they see other authors getting them so they feel it's only fair they get them too.

AJ

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


Some of those points are true, yet there are a number of free-to-enter competitions around and a number of websites/forums/twitter feeds etc dedicated to publicising them so there isn't really any excuse.


I'm not a twit and I don't use anti-social media. Nor do I get heavily involved with forums beyond this one. I have checked several websites that have been mentioned and found them all to fit within the comments I made previously.

edit to add: Some of the websites I've looked at have been from sites mentioned in this forum and from sites I found in google searches on contests.

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

But the point, which I failed to make, is that most authors don't really think their stories deserve 10s, but they see other authors getting them so they feel it's only fair they get them too.


I may be unusual in that I don't worry about the scores, except when I use them in regards to discussions on this forum.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

But the point, which I failed to make, is that most authors don't really think their stories deserve 10s, but they see other authors getting them so they feel it's only fair they get them too.

You're once again drifting off into a fantasy world where stories 'deserve' a particular score. Every reader has his personal outlook what kind of score a story deserves. Even though some may think their own evaluation is superior and others are faulty.

PotomacBob

@Crumbly Writer

since the 5% rule went into effect

When was that?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
PotomacBob

@Crumbly Writer

avoids the misleading story re-reads


i don't understand what that means. How does it affect anything if I re-read a story?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
richardshagrin
Updated:

@REP


Unless I know the author, their penname doesn't tell me anything about their age, race, or sex.


Sometimes the penname reveals information about the author. There are two dozen names that start with Old and some of them indicate the writer is male. Consider "Old Man with a Pen".

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@PotomacBob

When was that?


back in 2013

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

Hmm. Guess she stopped participating in the forum then


When it changed from email-based to his forum she had to stop. Something to do with her work environment.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

I think it's difficult to differentiate between observations and complaints.


I still participate on discussions about scoring. I just accept that it is what it is and don't bitch. But if I notice something new, like my observation of losing 7s rather than 1s in the 5%, I'll talk about it. Not to complain. Just because it was a revelation.

My asking for all the raw scores to show (including the 5%) was not a complaint. But I'd love it to be included again. My complaint was with the people who complained so much Lazeez removed them.

So I didn't agree not to discuss the scoring system. Just stop the kind of bitching that drives Lazeez crazy.

REP
Updated:

@richardshagrin


Consider "Old Man with a Pen".


Sometime back I read a few stories by an author I thought was male, but I don't recall the penname. Later I learned the author was female. I learned to not assume anything based on the penname.

ETA: Old does not define an age. I've met people in their 30's who felt like they were 'Old'.

Switch Blayde

@REP

ETA: Old does not define an age. I've met people in their 30's who felt like they were 'Old'.


A comedian once said: "The definition of 'old' is 20 years older than you."

madnige

@REP

Old does not define an age.


Inside every old person there's a puzzled teenager asking 'Where did all the years go?'

richardshagrin

@madnige

'Where did all the years go?'

I was 19 just a "couple (of)" years ago. November will be the 35th anniversary of my 39th birthday. Like Jack Benny, I don't get older, I just get funnier. Or is that more fun?

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@madnige

'Where did all the years go?'


They went into making me old. :)

Dominions Son

@madnige

Inside every old person there's a puzzled teenager asking 'Where did all the years go?'


Inside every teenager, there is a puzzled tot asking the same question. :)

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

I was 19 just a "couple (of)" years ago. November will be the 35th anniversary of my 39th birthday. Like Jack Benny, I don't get older, I just get funnier. Or is that more fun?


To cheat on your age, take your real/official age and sum the digits for a modified age. so "35th anniversary of my 39th birthday" = 74 becomes 11. :)

Replies:   richardshagrin
RedCzar

All I know is there were 18 candles on my last birthday cake, that makes me 18

richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

74 becomes 11


In really bad light, with observers more than a little intoxicated, I might pass for 39. There aren't many 5' 10" men who weight over 200 pounds (I won't say how much over 200) who can pass for 11 years old. (I agree 7 + 4 = 11, but some numbers lie. Or, figures don't lie but liars figure. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.)

awnlee jawking

@RedCzar

All I know is there were 18 candles on my last birthday cake, that makes me 18


If there were fork handles, would that make you four? ;)

AJ

Replies:   madnige
Ross at Play

@RedCzar

All I know is there were 18 candles on my last birthday cake

It's been a long time since anyone got a birthday cake for me too.
Sigh!

Replies:   RedCzar
RedCzar

@Ross at Play

oh screw that, I got that cake for myself!

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@RedCzar

oh screw that, I got that cake for myself!

Oh, you poor thing!

Have you ever forgotten your own birthday until after midnight? I have. :(

RedCzar

to be fair, I don't need my birthday to buy myself cake

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

If that's true, they should enter them into story-writing competitions and submit them to publishers.

Just because someone writes a terrific story doesn't mean the mainstream publishers will be likely to publish it (see how many times J. K. Rowling was rejected out of hand).

Publishers pick what they think will generate the most money (for them), not what they consider to be wonderful stories.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

But the point, which I failed to make, is that most authors don't really think their stories deserve 10s, but they see other authors getting them so they feel it's only fair they get them too.

More likely, they're 'fan-boy 10s'. Since most authors write the stories that fascinate them, instead of what the public craves or publishers demand, they're more likely to vote their own stories 10 because they fill a nitch not served by other stories.

There's nothing wrong with that, but those stories still wouldn't deserve being on the N.Y. Times top-ten list.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

I may be unusual in that I don't worry about the scores, except when I use them in regards to discussions on this forum.

As much as I bitch about the misuse and abuse of scores, I don't pay much attention to them. What I do pay attention to is how my stories scores differ from the norm (i.e. which are rated higher, and what that tells me about what people are looking for, or more precisely, what they don't like about my currently posting story.

One of my all-time highest scores on Fine Stories is my lowest time scores on SOL. That tells you all you need to know about the value of scores in rating stories.

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

i don't understand what that means. How does it affect anything if I re-read a story?

It changes the 'ratio of feedback to total reads', since the total reads keep increasing, although the comments effectively halt once the entire story is done posting.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Consider "Old Man with a Pen".

Maybe I should create a pen-name of "Old Man with an Attitude!" or "Old White Man with an Agenda". 'D

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

When it changed from email-based to his forum she had to stop. Something to do with her work environment.

Maybe we should switch the Forum over to Fine Stories, so everyone has the option of participating? We could still keep a link to it from all three sites.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Old does not define an age. I've met people in their 30's who felt like they were 'Old'.

I've met five and seven year olds who seemed like 'old souls', and I've also met 80 year olds who seemed like temperamental teenagers.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@RedCzar

All I know is there were 18 candles on my last birthday cake, that makes me 18

Last time anyone ever threw me a 'Surprise Birthday party': that makes me 13. Then again, 'last time I ever visited Spain' makes me perpetually 24.

Crumbly Writer

@RedCzar

to be fair, I don't need my birthday to buy myself cake

Let me guess, and every time you buy one, you put 18 candles on it? 'D

Replies:   RedCzar
madnige

@awnlee jawking

fork handles

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

One of my all-time highest scores on Fine Stories is my lowest time scores on SOL. That tells you all you need to know about the value of scores in rating stories.


I think it tells you more about the differences in the expectations of the readers on the two sites. I know a lot of my FS readers are not eligible to join SoL, and that means they have a different outlook on the stories. Mind you, my attitude is a basic - I dun wrot' it, an' now I dun dun wid it. I don't follow the reactions on a chapter by chapter basis, and I don't care to. I got better things to do with my time.

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

I've also met 80 year olds who seemed like temperamental teenagers.


No, that was actually a mirror ...

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

With the caveats that publishers will publish an average story by a known author in preference to a good story from an unknown author, and that some of the story material in SOL stories is unsuitable for commercial publication, there's something dodgy if an author rates their story as 'most amazing' but is not prepared to expose it to professional scrutiny.

AJ

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Maybe the author wants to keep writing as a hobby and isn't interested in professional scrutiny.

RedCzar

@Crumbly Writer

you think it lasts long enough to put candles on it?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Capt. Zapp

@RedCzar

to be fair, I don't need my birthday to buy myself cake


Actually, if I want a cake, I'll bake one. Those store-bought ones just don't taste as good unless it is from a good bakery. Unfortunately, the affordable ones are scarce as hen's teeth.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
PotomacBob

@Crumbly Writer

Most of my readers will reread my stories five or more times,


How do you know that? I'm a reader, not an author, so you may have some actual evidence (as opposed to opinion) that shows you that. Care to share that with those of us who have fewer tools?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
PotomacBob

@red61544

Most authors believe their story deserves a 10, and, therefore


How can you possibly know what most authors think?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

With the caveats that publishers will publish an average story by a known author in preference to a good story from an unknown author, and that some of the story material in SOL stories is unsuitable for commercial publication, there's something dodgy if an author rates their story as 'most amazing' but is not prepared to expose it to professional scrutiny.

So, you're saying there's something 'dodgy' about SOL authors, or you don't abide by your own advice?

There are sometimes very good reason not to waste years, trying to get anyone at all to read your work from a major publisher. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss everyone out of hand—leave that to the professional. 'D

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@RedCzar

you think it lasts long enough to put candles on it?

The candles are there to prevent you from eating it too fast. You gotta blow out each to eat the next piece. 'D Besides, then you can pretend there are hot 18 year olds attending your party (which is about as likely as when you were 18)!

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

Unfortunately, the affordable ones are scarce as hen's teeth.

Maybe 'cause they're full of ... hen's teeth? Or 'cause they can't find enough hen's teeth to make them?

Sorry, but I'm in a 'dumb joke' mood today.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@PotomacBob


How do you know that? I'm a reader, not an author, so you may have some actual evidence (as opposed to opinion) that shows you that. Care to share that with those of us who have fewer tools?

Two sources: readers consistently tell me so, and as I intimated earlier, the total count at completion/vs. feedback, compared to the total over time/vs. feedback. The last is hardly an exact measurement, but it at least tells you that the direct feedback isn't just a fluke.

It's not uncommon for someone to say 'I've already read xxx for the nth time, waiting for the newest work/sequel.

Crumbly Writer

@PotomacBob

How can you possibly know what most authors think?

I think he means that we're an egotistical bunch and typically like to brag about our accomplishments and opinions. (Not that any of us do, of course!)

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

So, you're saying there's something 'dodgy' about SOL authors, or you don't abide by your own advice?


I'm saying there's something dodgy about authors who award 10s to their own stories but don't risk subjecting them to professional scrutiny.

AJ

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

I'm saying there's something dodgy about authors who award 10s to their own stories but don't risk subjecting them to professional scrutiny.


Maybe so, AJ. However (you knew that was coming, didn't you), it's all but impossible for many authors to subject their stories to the professionals for scrutiny unless they want to pay said professional big bucks to look at it. I live in a rural area where I have good telecommunications but to go to one of the major cities where the few agents, publishers, etc are for a face to face takes three days out of the week and incurs large accommodation and travel bills. When I tried to contact agents many didn't respond, and the few who did reply insisted on a face to face meeting first, and not just send them in the manuscript. As to contests, we covered that earlier, most want money out of you or you have to already be published author. For someone like me it's just not a viable option, and many of the other authors here are in similar circumstances.

I'd welcome the opportunity to submit my stories for review by the pros, as long as I can do it without having to pay out money or to give them the rights to publish it from now until eternity without paying me anything.

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

I'm saying there's something dodgy about authors who award 10s to their own stories but don't risk subjecting them to professional scrutiny.


First, anyone serious about writing should make the effort to get published. Just don't blame the system if you aren't successful.

Second, when I rate SOL stories, I do not compare them to traditionally published stories. I score them on a curve. So "most amazing story" isn't the most amazing story I ever read, but rather, on SOL, it's an amazing story.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

When I tried to contact agents many didn't respond, and the few who did reply insisted on a face to face meeting first


I never heard of that. Everything's done electronically now, even signing the contract.

An author acquaintance of mine (on wattpad) lives in Ireland and her agent and publisher are in NYC. She never met any of them face-to-face. Another author is in Australia or New Zealand (I forget which; I think NZ) and her agent and publisher are also in NYC. She never met her agent or editors face-to-face. The only time travel was required was for book signing tours. I don't know who paid for that. Probably the publisher, but I can't say for sure.

I once entered a contest with Writer's Digest (my flash story "Coming Home"). No entry fee. The winners didn't get paid, but their stories were published in the magazine. That would have been more than enough "pay" for me.

As to "Do authors think their stories are a 10?" I thought my entry was better than the winners. LOL

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

First, anyone serious about writing should make the effort to get published. Just don't blame the system if you aren't successful.


While I agree with you, Switch, for some of us it just isn't possible to make the effort due to the high costs involved to do so from our home locations. Those who can do so by being near the agents should be in a much better position to try.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

Switch, if you know of any agents who'll take unsolicited manuscripts electronically for review I'll be happy to receive the information and try to work through them. I gave up on the book publishing about 6 years ago because the dozen or so agents I could get email addressees for in the USA all said I needed to come visit them first or said they weren't taking on new clients at that time. The few Australian ones I could contact all said I had to go through my local writers groups registered with the state and national writers association - and they're nearly all little 'pat each other on the back' closed groups. When I lived in Junee I contacted the writers club in Wagga eight times by email and letter over 4 years, and never had a reply. I gave up when I got told the only way you can join the government supported group was to be well known by two of the existing members and recommended for membership by them. At the time the many publishers websites I visited said they didn't read unsolicited manuscripts and I had to go through an agent.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

Switch, if you know of any agents who'll take unsolicited manuscripts electronically


I used Google and QueryTracker to find an agent. Those accepting new clients didn't want a manuscript. They wanted a query letter (and maybe a synopsis and first few chapters). If that interested them, then they would ask for the manuscript. None asked for a face-to-face meeting. In fact, that's the last thing they would want at that stage. They're too busy.

The process sucks. You're supposed to send out hundreds of queries in batches of 10. I gave up after 4 or 6 queries total. Most didn't even bother responding. One took over 6 months to reject me. I had already self-published it by that time.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

on SOL, it's an amazing story.


but not a 'most amazing' story? ;)

Just joking. If you reserve 10 for amazing stories, you're acting more responsibly than many readers.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

As to contests, we covered that earlier, most want money out of you


Perhaps it's because you're in Australia. (Actually, after watching a few episodes of 'The Heart Guy', I wouldn't mind being in Australia too.) Or perhaps it's because you don't look hard enough. I follow a few aspiring authors on Twitter and they publicise a constant stream of free-to-enter contests. Most of them don't have any worthwhile prizes, perhaps pride of place in their on-line monthly literary magazine, but at least it's a form of publication.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Michael Loucks

@Crumbly Writer

As much as I bitch about the misuse and abuse of scores, I don't pay much attention to them.


Believe it or not, that's true of me, too.

My complaint, if you will, is that the scoring system provides misinformation. And THAT is what bugs me so much.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@Crumbly Writer

hot 18 year olds attending your party


Probably his male friends. :)

Replies:   RedCzar
REP

@awnlee jawking

but don't risk subjecting them to professional scrutiny.


I think I rated my 1st story, but none of the others. Most SOL authors are professional writers, so what reason would they have for submitting their stories for professional scrutiny.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

Most SOL authors are professional writers, ...

Did you mean that or did you mean 'are not professional writers'?

Replies:   oyster50  REP
richardshagrin

What makes writing a profession? Is it that the author gets paid money? Or praise? Or just feels good about doing it?

The traditional professions were Religion (being a Priest or Minister), Law, Medicine, and probably Engineering. Maybe Architecture instead of Engineering or in addition to it. It wasn't how much money you made, especially for Religion.

The Romans had priests (and Vestal Virgins who were professional religious workers), physicians, and people who built things like roads, buildings and aqueducts. I am not sure they had professional lawyers. They had courts of law but I am not sure you had to hire someone to represent you.

It is possible being in the military, at least as an officer was a profession. Government work may have been a profession, consuls, tribunes, etc.

I am not sure about writing being a profession. They had writers we still read, at least in translation. Was Homer a writer? The Iliad and Odyssey were poems and may have been memorized and recited before they were written down. He was a Greek, not a Roman.

robberhands

@Switch Blayde

First, anyone serious about writing should make the effort to get published. Just don't blame the system if you aren't successful.

I submit my stories to SOL to get 'published'. I don't want the hassle of 'professional scrutiny'. Why would I? I don't need and don't even want to earn money by writing fiction. The last I want is some professionals telling me how I need to change my writing to appeal to a wider market. Does that make me a less serious writer?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
RedCzar

@REP

who said anything about a party? I sit in the dark and eat that whole cake by myself.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Does that make me a less serious writer?


Pffft, you just don't want the hassle of going on book tours, and having to sign your name on the naked breasts of adoring teenage girl groupies ;)

AJ

madnige

@awnlee jawking

When's your next book signing tour, so that I may come and verify that all the adoring teenage girl groupies are of legal age?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Pffft, you just don't want the hassle of going on book tours, and having to sign your name on the naked breasts of adoring teenage girl groupies ;)

True. I have enough of that in my professional occupation and don't want to be bothered during my spare time as well.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@madnige

I haven't yet written a story here to which I'd award a 10 ;)

How are you going to verify the ages of teenage girl groupies? You can't examine their teeth: that's not allowed for asylum seekers because of their human rights.

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

I haven't yet written a story here to which I'd award a 10 ;)

I think, I read one of your blog entries where you chided your readers for awarding your stories with 10s, because your stories so obviously don't deserve them.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
oyster50

@robberhands

Undoubtedly he mis-typed.

I've sold three fiction pieces as a ghost writer.

My technicla writings are parts of dozens of projects and facilities on two continents.

I don't call myself a professional writer. I'm just an old engineer type who fancies himself a storyteller.

Ernest Bywater

@RedCzar

who said anything about a party? I sit in the dark and eat that whole cake by myself.


Yeah, it's damned hard to cut those little cupcakes up without messing them up.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

I'm saying there's something dodgy about authors who award 10s to their own stories but don't risk subjecting them to professional scrutiny.

Hold on a moment, WHAT authors are you attacking here? So far, the majority have stated that they DON'T vote for their own stories, so who are these boogeymen you're trashing?

I suspect, the ONLY authors who MIGHT vote for themselves, are those who also vote other authors stories simply to help their own scores, which would make them cretins, but we have no actual evidence that such people actually exist on SOL. We might assume they do, but it seems silly to launch entire crusades about potential author abuse.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I never heard of that. Everything's done electronically now, even signing the contract.

Really? Ernest has been belaboring the same point for years, and NOW you're suddenly claiming it's the 'first time I've ever heard of it'? But, I do agree with you, I personally think Ernest just contacted the WRONG publishers, who wouldn't give him the time of day, and after several failures, simply gave it up as a lost cause. If you want to help, why not give him the publishers your 'contacts' use who DON'T require a face-to-face meeting to evaluate his book?

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Most of them don't have any worthwhile prizes, perhaps pride of place in their on-line monthly literary magazine, but at least it's a form of publication.

More importantly, it's a decent means of exposing your work beyond the limits of SOL members, something that's VERY difficult for independent authors to do. For that limited exposure alone, I'd be willing to grant those contests the rights to 'publish' my work, as long as they don't claim 'exclusive' rights to the story, but only limited rights associated with the contest (i.e. including the winning entries in their magazine).

@Ernest, seriously, sometimes you really overthink this whole 'publishing rights forever' nonsense. Sometimes, those 'rights clauses' are just what they say, not 'traps' to sell authors work in perpetuity. After all, why would they even WANT the rights to most of the tripe they're sent?

Crumbly Writer

@Michael Loucks

My complaint, if you will, is that the scoring system provides misinformation. And THAT is what bugs me so much.

Yeah, I agree with that, which is WHY I brought up the point of factoring in 'first readers' instead of 'rereads' when calculating reader responses to stories. Otherwise, you skew the statistics even further. As it is, the story statistics are highly questionable, as the vast majority are 'read ahead' false positives and shouldn't be used to judge your success as an author.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Was Homer a writer? The Iliad and Odyssey were poems and may have been memorized and recited before they were written down. He was a Greek, not a Roman.

More importantly, there's no indication he was paid DIDDLY for his writing, as there were NO copyright protections in his day. Instead, they had 'sponsorships', where some government official (a king or prince or governor somewhere) paid you a stipend to write stories for them, which you were then free to mail out to your friends and family who could read). In that case, the DID get paid for writing, but not for any given 'book' like authors do nowadays. Instead, they were 'staff' positions, roughly equivalent to the court jester in that they kept someone 'amused' during the slow periods in their life.

Replies:   sunkuwan
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Pffft, you just don't want the hassle of going on book tours, and having to sign your name on the naked breasts of adoring teenage girl groupies ;)

Hell, I keep offering, but all I've gotten so far have been slaps to the face—which is decidedly better than some, who'd rather watch them pee on each other while they stay a safe distance away in full view of government cameras!

Crumbly Writer

@oyster50

My technicla writings are parts of dozens of projects and facilities on two continents.

I don't call myself a professional writer. I'm just an old engineer type who fancies himself a storyteller.

I'm officially a 'published' author, because I charge people for my books, but I only 'earn' enough for a few spare meals, yet NOT enough to cover my expenses, so it's a net loss, yet I'm not allowed to call myself a 'non-profit enterprise'.

Instead, I do it 1) to get my work out to a broader market and 2) because seeing someone forking over their hard-earned cash for one of my stories is more emotionally fulfilling that watching largely meaningless 'download counts' on a daily basis.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

If that's true, and I have to concede it's possible, I hope I've deleted that entry.

My policy nowadays is to not publicly criticise my readers. No good comes from it, and it can backfire spectacularly.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

This diversion came about because of a claim that most authors believe their stories deserve 10s.

I have no evidence that it actually happens, but given the lengths some go to boost their scores, it's not far-fetched to expect that some authors do actually vote on their own stories and award themselves 10s.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

You never know, once the teen girls realise the Elvis impersonator is also a talented writer, they might ask you to sign both breasts ;)

AJ

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

If that's true, and I have to concede it's possible, I hope I've deleted that entry.

Of course, it's true. You suggested your teenage girl groupies should send you their underwear instead of rating your stories a 10.

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

I'm officially a 'published' author


I though you self-published? The term 'published author' usually means someone whose work has been published by a recognised independent publisher.

AJ

awnlee_jawking

@robberhands

You suggested your teenage girl groupies should send you their underwear instead of rating your stories a 10.


Sniffs!

AJ

REP

@robberhands

OOOPs. I got in a hurry and overlooked 'not' was missing. Thanks

REP

@awnlee jawking

The term 'published author' usually means someone whose work has been published by a recognised independent publisher


It does????

I consider myself to be a 'published author' in that I have presented my writing to an audience and they have read what I wrote.

I never consider the financial aspects as a requirement for being a 'published author'. If you want to add in the financial side of writing, I would call the person a professional author, since they are trying to support themselves, fully or in part, through their writing.

Ross at Play

@REP

I never consider the financial aspects as a requirement for being a 'published author'.

AJ's definition of 'published author' is not based on the author being a professional; it's based on someone else deciding they may profit from publishing the author's work.

Authors may write for the love of it. Publishers only publish for the money!

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
BlacKnight

Thanks to the Internet, it's increasingly unnecessary for a professional author to be a published author.

Replies:   REP
doctor_wing_nut

@oyster50

I don't call myself a professional writer. I'm just an old engineer type who fancies himself a storyteller.


I'm glad you stated that, because it ties in to something I've been thinking on quite a bit lately, and it has caused me to adjust my stance regarding this site and its' participants. Maybe it will help others, maybe not.

I consider an 'author' to be anyone that produces a work offered for consideration to others. Everyone that posts here, stories or comments, falls into that category, for me. The other two categories are where much of my attention is drawn - storytellers vs writers.

We have many, many excellent storytellers here, that can weave a fascinating and engrossing tale. Some of them, I consider writers as well - but not all. A writer would care about the format of their offering (spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc.), and would work towards presenting their tale in the generally accepted way we see in dead-tree type stories. A storyteller may or may not care much about these niceties. I would wager that if we heard some of these poorly executed works recited around a campfire, we would be entranced and engrossed in the ups and downs of the characters, and would thoroughly enjoy the experience. But, to some of us, when we see all the technical errors contained in the written version, it ruins the impact of the plot - we just can't get past the slipshod production values to fully enjoy the story buried underneath.

When I started to look upon some people here as 'storytellers' rather than 'writers', I found I was less bothered by the often tragic execution. I try instead to 'hear' it rather than 'read' it. It helps, a bit, but I still value writers much more highly than storytellers, however. It's clear to me they care about their efforts more, and I truly appreciate that.

ps - I still lose my shit when people don't know the difference between THEN and THAN, which is grade-school level, 12 year-old kid stuff, but that's my cross to bear. Edumacation be a biatch.

Capt. Zapp

@Ross at Play

it's based on someone else deciding they may profit from publishing the author's work.


We have a lot of them here then, considering how many stories have been found posted by someone else trying to make a profit off of stolen works!

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Capt. Zapp

We have a lot of them here then, considering how many stories have been found posted by someone else trying to make a profit off of stolen works!

You're right. Sigh!

I should have been more clear in defining a 'publisher' as someone who invests their own money in the hope of making a profit by publishing an author's work.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

My policy nowadays is to not publicly criticise my readers. No good comes from it, and it can backfire spectacularly.

Amen to that. Whatever a reader's opinion, it's legitimately how they feel about the story, and no amount of berating them will make them like it any better (though sometimes you can get them to read just a little more with a few assurances).

What's more, if someone doesn't like a story, they may vote it down, but if you pick a public fight, they'll bad-mouth you to everyone they encounter, which isn't good for anyone's reputation.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

I though you self-published? The term 'published author' usually means someone whose work has been published by a recognised independent publisher.

Yeah, I'm self-published, but the definition of 'published' varies defending upon whom you ask. Most consider 'published' as 'has a book available in printed form', rather than 'has their book available in every damn bookstore in the entire country!'

What's more 'professional' normally mean simply that you charge for something, rather than whether it pays your bills or not. Many of the top-rated books don't earn enough for their authors to quit their day jobs ("Do you want fries, and maybe a copy of my book with that?").

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I should have been more clear in defining a 'publisher' as someone who invests their own money in the hope of making a profit by publishing an author's work.

Though that also includes all the vanity publishers, whose main responsibilities in life is ensuring authors have no room in their garage for cars or equipment, and that they'll never publish another books because of the requirements they give the vanity press the rights to the next couple books they produce.

If a 'publisher' demands that you pay them to publish your works, turn around and run for the door. Many choose this option simply because their terrified at the most technical skills required to publish (book and cover design, illustrations, marking, etc., but believe me, you'll pay for each other those, rather than you're readers)!

sunkuwan

@Crumbly Writer

There is a little anecdote from the 19th century with copyright.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html

The German proliferation of knowledge created a curious situation that hardly anyone is likely to have noticed at the time. Sigismund Hermbstädt, for example, a chemistry and pharmacy professor in Berlin, who has long since disappeared into the oblivion of history, earned more royalties for his "Principles of Leather Tanning" published in 1806 than British author Mary Shelley did for her horror novel "Frankenstein," which is still famous today.


Höffner has researched that early heyday of printed material in Germany and reached a surprising conclusion -- unlike neighboring England and France, Germany experienced an unparalleled explosion of knowledge in the 19th century.

German authors during this period wrote ceaselessly. Around 14,000 new publications appeared in a single year in 1843. Measured against population numbers at the time, this reaches nearly today's level. And although novels were published as well, the majority of the works were academic papers.

The situation in England was very different. "For the period of the Enlightenment and bourgeois emancipation, we see deplorable progress in Great Britain," Höffner states.

Equally Developed Industrial Nation

Indeed, only 1,000 new works appeared annually in England at that time -- 10 times fewer than in Germany -- and this was not without consequences. Höffner believes it was the chronically weak book market that caused England, the colonial power, to fritter away its head start within the span of a century, while the underdeveloped agrarian state of Germany caught up rapidly, becoming an equally developed industrial nation by 1900.

Even more startling is the factor Höffner believes caused this development -- in his view, it was none other than copyright law, which was established early in Great Britain, in 1710, that crippled the world of knowledge in the United Kingdom.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@sunkuwan

Even more startling is the factor Höffner believes caused this development -- in his view, it was none other than copyright law, which was established early in Great Britain, in 1710, that crippled the world of knowledge in the United Kingdom.

I'm sure there are two factors to this 'explosive growth' in German publishing: their history (with the Gutenberg Press), but more importantly, even today, copyright mainly profits publishing companies, at the expense of authors who often get little to nothing from their efforts, while the copyright holders retain their tiles for ungodly amounts of time, keeping them OUT of the public's hands where they might do some good.

awnlee jawking

@REP

As EB pointed out, many story-writing competitions (including the BBC competition) only allow entries from published authors. They don't mean self-published, or submitted to websites like this.

AJ

Replies:   REP
REP

@BlacKnight

it's increasingly unnecessary for a professional author to be a published author.


Did you misstate that? I find it hard to understand how a professional author could be an unpublished author.

Replies:   BlacKnight
Switch Blayde

@richardshagrin

The traditional professions were Religion (being a Priest or Minister), Law, Medicine, and probably Engineering. Maybe Architecture instead of Engineering or in addition to it.


You forgot the oldest profession.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

If you want to help, why not give him the publishers your 'contacts' use who DON'T require a face-to-face meeting to evaluate his book?


It's more complex than that. Each author has to find the right agent or publisher for their work. Sending it to the right one is the first critical step. That's why QueryTracker is so good. The agent tells you what they're looking for.

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

I though you self-published? The term 'published author' usually means someone whose work has been published by a recognised independent publisher.


That's how I meant it, but that's not what it means. Self-published authors are also published.

REP
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I suppose it all comes down to what published author means. In the trade, it seems to mean an author who gets paid for what they write.

From a grammatical point of view, publish means:

transitive verb

1 a : to make generally known

b : to make public announcement of

2 a : to disseminate to the public

b : to produce or release for distribution; specifically : print 2c

c : to issue the work of (an author)

intransitive verb

1 : to put out an edition

2 : to have one's work accepted for publication


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/publish

As you can see none of the 7 definitions mention money. There is a link to publication and the definition of publication means:

1 : the act or process of publishing

2 : a published work


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/publication

Once again no mention of money, however I do acknowledge most published works are presented for sale.

Personally, I use the grammatical definition of published to define an author.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@REP

Found on Wikipedia (spit):

The more specific phrase published author refers to an author (especially but not necessarily of books) whose work has been independently accepted for publication by a reputable publisher, versus a self-publishing author or an unpublished one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author

AJ

Replies:   REP
REP

@awnlee jawking

In the trade, it seems to mean an author who gets paid for what they write.


If you missed it, I started out the post with the above.

As Wikipedia said, "The more specific phrase published author refers to ..." If you go with the more general phrase, rather than the specific, money doesn't enter into being a published author.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
BlacKnight

@REP

Did you misstate that?

No.

I find it hard to understand how a professional author could be an unpublished author.

Authors who self-publish are not "published authors", nor is their work unpublished.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  REP
awnlee jawking

@REP

As Wikipedia said, "The more specific phrase published author refers to ..." If you go with the more general phrase, rather than the specific, money doesn't enter into being a published author.


The specific term as defined in Wikipedia (spit) doesn't mention money either. It's possible to be a published author, in the traditional, penis-comparing sense, without being paid if the prize for a story-writing competition from a reputable publisher is free publication.

AJ

AJ

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

You forgot the oldest profession.

Selling apples?

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

the oldest profession


Universe creation? Thank God, its Friday (June 1). Not certain being God is a profession. Clearly there were no professions before the universe was created.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@BlacKnight

Authors who self-publish are not "published authors"


They are. Self-publishing is a new era.

REP

@awnlee jawking

But it does. Your Wikipedia article specifically states:

The more specific phrase published author refers to an author (especially but not necessarily of books) whose work has been independently accepted for publication by a reputable publisher [according to whom?], versus a self-publishing author or an unpublished one.[citation needed]

The author of a work may receive a percentage calculated on a wholesale or a specific price or a fixed amount on each book sold.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
REP

@richardshagrin

Clearly there were no professions before the universe was created.


What about Self-Ruling Ruler, since there was no one else around. :)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@BlacKnight


Authors who self-publish are not "published authors",


If you checkout Awnlee's Wikipedia article under the topic of Self Publishing, it says:


Self-publishing, self-publishing, independent publishing, or artisanal publishing is the "publication of any book, album or other media by its author without the involvement of a traditional publisher. It is the modern equivalent to traditional publishing".


The Wikipedia article is focused on the publishing industry and is written from the point of view of the traditional publisher. It is also contradictory in at least one place in that it say self-publishing is the modern equivalent of traditional publishing but then indicates that an author must be paid by a traditional publisher in order to be a 'published' author. So if the self=publishing author gets paid directly by the buyer, he isn't a 'published' author. I call that bullshit.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

I think BlacKnight is taking a grammatical stance. A subject author who publishes himself is not an object author who gets published by others.

Replies:   Ross at Play  REP
Ross at Play

@robberhands

I think BlacKnight is taking a grammatical stance. A subject author who publishes himself is not an object author who gets published by others.

Hmm? ... Grammatically speaking, I'd classify 'published author' as an idiomatic expression. The meaning I attribute to that expression is more restrictive than I'd get for the noun 'author' modified by the adjective 'published'. The first includes only your "object authors" while the second would include "subject authors" too.

Ain't English fun?

robberhands

@Ross at Play

Neither you, Bruce, nor I am BlacKnight. I only made a guess, interpreting his statement. That aside, 'to publish' is also a verb.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I'm not sure 'idiom' is the right term for industry jargon, but I agree.

A few people have said that since I have stories available on websites, I'm a published author. But if I made that claim in a writers' group meeting, the most common reaction would probably be to roll around on the floor laughing.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking

@REP

'may', not 'will'.

A story-writing contest I came across recently, held by a reputable (IMO) literary magazine, offered a decent prize for the winning entry, token prizes barely exceeding the entry fee for runners-up, and free publication for however many entries the judges decided to rate as 'highly commended'.

Although not receiving any monetary compensation, the highly commended authors could subsequently claim to be 'published authors', allowing them entry into competitions purely for published authors.

AJ

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

I'm not sure 'idiom' is the right term for industry jargon

Yeah. I think 'jargon' is a better term, now, but was it jargon in the days before self-publishing? Wasn't the literal meaning of 'published author' back then the same as today's literal meaning of 'independently-published author'?

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

was it jargon in the days before self-publishing?


Were there days before self-publishing? Didn't Moses self-publish?

AJ

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Didn't Moses self-publish?

You mean, he wrote the Ten Commandments himself?

helmut_meukel

@awnlee jawking

Didn't Moses self-publish?


No. God was the author and Moses was his editor/publisher.

Now how about the Epic of Gilgamesh? Wasn't it originally self-published?

HM.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@helmut_meukel

Now how about the Epic of Gilgamesh? Wasn't it originally self-published?


The Epic of Gilgamesh is Babylonian mythology. What writing they had was on clay tablets. Most likely the epic started in an oral tradition and original author was dead before it was ever written down.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Universe creation?

The 'apple seller' wasn't a reference to God and the creation of the universe, but instead to either the serpent (and original sin) or to Eve herself, who supposedly coaxed Adam into trying it. It's more metaphor than preachy.

Replies:   richardshagrin
Crumbly Writer

@REP

What about Self-Ruling Ruler, since there was no one else around.

There were plenty of others around. Why do you think Satan was so pissed that God gave man free will, and demanded the angels give him the same deference? Clearly God had plenty of minions to do his bidding, but wanted someone who could come up with a few creative ideas, good or bad.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Wasn't the literal meaning of 'published author' back then the same as today's literal meaning of 'independently-published author'?

Gutenberg, by definitions, was 'self-published'. What's more, he blatantly 'stole' an existing work, rather than creating new content, and yet he initiated the entire publishing industry. We'd have no 'traditional publishers' if not for the original self-publisher.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

The 'apple seller' wasn't a reference to God and the creation of the universe, but instead to either the serpent (and original sin) or to Eve herself, who supposedly coaxed Adam into trying it.

I decided Eve wasn't the first professional (apple seller, to Adam) so I went back to the Garden of Eden's fabricator, God. I wasn't willing to call Him/Her/It a professional, but if they were then they were the first. I suppose most people would prefer to refer to God using a male pronoun, but there is a chance something more inclusive is a better choice. Maybe God is Mother Nature.

REP
Updated:

@robberhands

Perhaps.

Awnlee's article listed 3 types of authors: published authors, self-published authors, and unpublished authors. The article seems to define the first two as authors who get paid for their works. They don't define unpublished authors, so I guess they mean those of us who distribute our works without charge.

If you want to look into the grammatical meaning of published author, most dictionaries seem to define published as the distribution of the work to the public. Typically, there is no mention of whether money is paid to the author.

Wikipedia defines 'Published' for its internal use as:

The word published derives from the Latin word meaning to make known publicly. Publication is the first threshold that all information must meet to be included in Wikipedia's articles. For Wikipedia's purposes, published means any source that was "made available to the public in some form".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Published

Again it is defined as an author who distributed their works to the public with no mention of financial gain.

The only meaning I can see for unpublished author would be someone who writes stories and never makes them available to the public.

REP
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


'may', not 'will'.


I take 'may' to mean one or the other.

monetary compensation can be in the form of cash or something of value.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

There were plenty of others around.


Interesting point. Satan is supposedly an Angel who fell out of favor. Thus Angels were around before Adam. Since God has supposedly always been in existence, have Angels always been in existence? If not, where did they come from?

Replies:   StarFleetCarl
robberhands

@REP

Personally, I don't care about this definitions at all. My enjoyment of a story does not depend on how or by whom the story was published. I like to know who wrote the story, but even that doesn't really matter to me.

Replies:   REP
helmut_meukel

@Crumbly Writer

Gutenberg, by definitions, was 'self-published'. What's more, he blatantly 'stole' an existing work, rather than creating new content, and yet he initiated the entire publishing industry.


Huhh?
Only an author can be 'self-published'.
Gutenberg was no author, for his "Gutenberg Bible" he was editor, publisher, printer, bookseller.
You can't 'steal' something like the Bible. To use a modern term the Bible was public domain.

BTW, back then the idea of copyright and intellectual property was very alien.

HM.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@helmut_meukel

he was editor, publisher, printer, bookseller.


And typesetter.

Did he sell it?

StarFleetCarl

@REP

Since God has supposedly always been in existence, have Angels always been in existence? If not, where did they come from?


"God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent – it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills." - RAH

But in actual response, God also created the Angels. They were the first experiment in free will, being allowed to disagree with their creator.

All this also presumes that everything written in the Bible isn't the attempt by a primitive man attempting to understand something that Giorgio Tsoulakas and his hair discuss frequently on television.

Replies:   REP
REP

@robberhands

Personally, i find it insulting to be called an unpublished author.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
REP
Updated:

@StarFleetCarl


everything written in the Bible


I have a vague recollection that the original content was about the local areas, people, customs, culture, and politics. The following seems to me to be a good link for the history of the Bible, but I need a dictionary to understand what it says.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible#Authorship

RedCzar

wow. this has taken a long long journey from my original question. There's gotta be a story in that!

Banadin

I have had several articles published in trade journals, which were sold for profit, however I was not paid, other than professional recognition.This did lead to paying work. Am I a published author?

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@REP


If you want to look into the grammatical meaning of published author, most dictionaries seem to define published as the distribution of the work to the public. Typically, there is no mention of whether money is paid to the author.


You're right about "published", though the definition of "making money" is "professional", so ANYONE who self-publishes is a Published author (as distinct from a 'successful' published author or a 'recognized' published author).

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

You're right about "published", though the definition of "making money" is "professional", so ANYONE who makes money is a Published author (as distinct from a 'successful' published author or a 'recognized' published author).

I doubt that making money is negating someone's success, so it's a rather bad distinctive feature.

awnlee jawking

@REP

Then submit your work to a reputable independent publisher.

AJ

Replies:   REP
REP

@awnlee jawking

I considered that and asked for advice in the Forum. Based on comments received, I decided being a professional author might be a bigger problem than I wanted to handle at this point in my life. I'm happy just writing my stories and letting others read them if they wish.

That doesn't mean that I like the 'industry specific' term of 'unpublished' being applied to me because I'm not paid money for my stories when the grammatical meaning of 'unpublished' indicates I am a published author. Call it a ego thing if you wish.

Uther_Pendragon

@Michael Loucks

My understanding, and I may b wrong, is that the author gets to see all the votes he gets.
(I've got lots of stories that didn't get 20 votes total, so taking off 5% on each end would be taking off less than one vote at each end.)
The deletion of stories on the ends affects the first stage of calculating the posted average.
The second stage is comparing your average with the average score of "currently posted" (whatever that means) stories.

Uther_Pendragon

@Crumbly Writer

If fewer than 5% are one-bombers and real fans.

Actuaslly, what a 1 vote does to a score with more than 20 votes, all going from 7 to 10, is to add back in one of the 7 votes into the average.

awnlee jawking

@Uther_Pendragon

My understanding, and I may b wrong, is that the author gets to see all the votes he gets.


I believe you have to promise not to complain about the scoring system in order to see all the votes.

I have a story with 24 votes. The sum of the bar totals (since the small number makes it easy to work them out) is 22. So the bar chart doesn't show the least and most favourable votes.

AJ

Switch Blayde

@Uther_Pendragon

My understanding, and I may b wrong, is that the author gets to see all the votes he gets.


Not anymore. You don't see the top and bottom 5%.

Back to Top