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Nudity pre-14 year old kids

2Ber Hero

I have a couple stories that I'd planned on having nudity involving young children, but it was TOTALLY non-sexual. I am a hard core hater of pedophiles. I feel that nudity is not inherently sexual. Am I just out of luck? How strict is that rule?

Replies:   red61544
robberhands

From SoL's Authors Help "What kind of stories can I post?"

You can post almost anything. We have one restriction: Characters under 14 years old can't be sexual or sexualized. Characters under 14 can't masturbate, can't be described nude and can't participate in any explicitly described sexual manner.

If you must have those characters, then anything sexual to do with them must be described in a clinical manner. Think how they would do it on public television. So never in any sexualized manner or salacious descriptions.

In that vein, you can't have fictitious characters that are supposedly older and yet somehow behave or look like underage children. That will get you booted off the site.

Ernest Bywater

my take on the Sol rules about under 14 nudity is he doesn't want a detailed or graphic description of them nude, but simply saying they're nude shouldn't be an issue. However, the best thing is to write a typical type of scene and then send it to Lazeez with a note asking if it was acceptable. He'll give you a definite answer.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The general rule is, if it walks like a pedo bear, barks like a pedo bear and gropes children like a pedo bear, then it's pedo.

Translating that, if the descriptions sound sexual, or simply sexually suggestive, then it's consider—by the law—as child abuse. So kids fooling around sexually, kid's masturbating or even kid's fantasizing about one another (or any adults near them) are out of bounds. Descriptions of a little boy getting a hard-on could go either way. I'd post those to Lazeez so he can rule on them. After all, it's his website, and if you violate the rules, he'll be the one to pay the price.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

I am a reader and personally have noticed how much he tries to work with the writers here.

The only thing he seems to really hate is when someone tries to sneak past the rules. Those rules are there to both protect him and the site so it can continue to serve both the writers and the readers.

Of course this is my opinion and I have been proven to be wrong a few times. Like I said its my opinion.

Replies:   Mike-Kaye
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

After all, it's his website, and if you violate the rules, he'll be the one to pay the price.


Wrong all of us would pay that price. Readers would lose a great site for stories.

Writers would lose a great site to share their stories.

Site could potentially be shut down and Laz could potentially go to prison, but we would all lose.

Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

Wrong all of us would pay that price. Readers would lose a great site for stories.

Writers would lose a great site to share their stories.

Site could potentially be shut down and Laz could potentially go to prison, but we would all lose.

Okay, fine. Lazeez would pay dearly, while the rest of us would be minorly inconvienenced. I guess that's the exact same thing.

Replies:   docholladay
awnlee jawking

@docholladay

Site could potentially be shut down and Laz could potentially go to prison, but we would all lose.


Didn't I just read in another thread the opinion that Lazeez couldn't be held responsible for content? The context was fanfic that violated copyright.

I have no interest in causing trouble or getting the site shut down, I'm just looking for clarity.

AJ

Replies:   zellus  Dominions Son
zellus

@awnlee jawking

Fanfic is mainly a civil matter, but this case is about criminal matter.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

*Edited

Sites that publish user content are somewhat protected from liability for copyright violations by user content, that protection is explicit to copyright law.

Child pornography is a different matter. In most countries mere possession is of child pornography is a criminal offense.

Simply by having material deemed child porn on his servers, Lazeez would be in possession of that material.

Under US law, nothing on this site qualifies as child pornography, because that requires photographic images or video of real children.

However, SOL and Lazeez are in Canada and under Canadian law, stories depicting young children in sexual situations can be child pornography.

From what he has said in the past on this issue, Lazeez has consulted with Canadian lawyers to define the parameters of what is allowable on this issue.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Not_a_ID
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

Thank you.

My strongly pejorative response, pertaining to the consistency of the law, has been self-censored for fear of scaring those of a sensitive disposition ;)

AJ

Replies:   Zom  Dominions Son
Zom

@awnlee jawking

consistency of the law

Oxymoron.

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

My strongly pejorative response, pertaining to the consistency of the law, has been self-censored for fear of scaring those of a sensitive disposition ;)


"It was all Mrs. Bumble. She would do it," urged Mr. Bumble; first looking round, to ascertain that his partner had left the room.

That is no excuse," returned Mr. Brownlow. "You were present on the occasion of the destruction of these trinkets, and, indeed, are the more guilty of the two, in the eye of the law; for the law supposes that your wife acts under your direction."

If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is a ass — a idiot. If that's the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience — by experience."


-Charles Dickens from Oliver Twist.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/22816-it-was-all-mrs-bumble-she-would-do-it-urged

The law is an ass.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

The law is an ass.

What do you expect, it's written by lawyers!

StarFleet Carl

@Ernest Bywater

However, the best thing is to write a typical type of scene and then send it to Lazeez with a note asking if it was acceptable. He'll give you a definite answer.


That's what I did with my Skyrim novel on here, contacting Laz first. One the characters had become a vampire while still a child. (Babette, if you're a Skyrim fan.) She'd been a vampire for 300 years. So I could say that this 300 year old vampire had sex with another character without actually describing any of her physical characteristics or the real act itself in great detail and it was acceptable.

docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

Okay, fine. Lazeez would pay dearly, while the rest of us would be minorly inconvienenced. I guess that's the exact same thing.


Its why everyone of us have to keep our eyes open for potential problems. I know when I spot anything I will message Laz using that handy report option. Asking him to check out the story. The actual decision is his however.

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

From what he has said in the past on this issue, Lazeez has consulted with Canadian lawyers to define the parameters of what is allowable on this issue.


....And from what I have recently encountered, there seems to be considerable leeway in how that law is getting interpreted. Picked up a "Mature" rated manga from a Canadian Publisher/translator and had a surprise of my own when the MC walks in on his naked sister(who is shown). The same sister that is alternately described as "in grade school" on the bio-page serials often have, or once as a "First Year" (suggesting 6th grade to my understanding).

Usually even the American companies would try to keep it ambiguous on their being in High School or a College of some kind(and over 18), so finding a Canadian publisher doing that in light of Canada's law on the matter was odd to say the least.

Of course, in their case, it might also be a deliberate (and ballsy) attempt to spur an over-zealous prosecutor into action so they can strike at least portions of the law down.

From my understanding of how the Canadian courts tend to view things, they use "a harm based" approach in particular with regards to criminal laws. That is how women obtained "top-freedom" in Ontario, "the Crown" failed to demonstrate how anyone was harmed by seeing women topless, so it was struck down. Likewise, I think prosecutors in Canada are genuinely afraid of seeing a comparable event happen with that law if they go after "obviously fictitious offenders."

But that is still a huge risk for someone to take regarding potential enforcement actions. I doubt SOL is making sufficient money for Laz to consider pursuing that fight, particularly when that specific category is rather fringe to start with, and as ASSTR demonstrates, can drive other authors and audiences away.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

From my understanding of how the Canadian courts tend to view things, they use "a harm based" approach in particular with regards to criminal laws. That is how women obtained "top-freedom" in Ontario, "the Crown" failed to demonstrate how anyone was harmed by seeing women topless, so it was struck down. Likewise, I think prosecutors in Canada are genuinely afraid of seeing a comparable event happen with that law if they go after "obviously fictitious offenders."

I concur. So far, I've not heard of ANY prosecutions under this Canadian law, so I'm guessing it was mainly passed to 'scare' authors/publishers into self-censoring, rather than to prosecute any offenders. As you said, the prosecutors seem to be terrified about filing charges, for fear the entire law will be struck down as invalid. But still, seeing how much it costs to defend yourself against a frivolous lawsuit, few choose that option.

But to add to your final point, despite the lack of filed charges, Lazeez is still considering dropping the earlier 'under 14' stories simply because it has a deterrent effect on readers, rather than a fear of prosecution (since they're grandfathered in under the law).

ASSTR proves that, if you cater to any one demographic, however dedicated, you stand to lose your entire kingdom.

Geek of Ages

@Dominions Son

The law is an ass.


I'd rather the law to the alternative.

Replies:   Dominions Son
red61544
Updated:

@2Ber Hero

I don't know why so many people try to stretch this rule. We've had this discussion numerous times yet people still want to bend the rule. Is it an effort to force Lazeez to close the site? ASSTR still exists (but god knows for how long.) If you feel a need to bend the pedo rule, publish on ASSTR.

Crumbly Writer

@red61544

I don't know why so many people try to stretch this rule.

To be fair, 2BrHero never tried to 'bend the rule', he just didn't understand what was allowed and what wasn't. That's not to say that others don't try to play fast and loose with the rules, but they're usually caught (typically when other readers report the stories). Even then, Lazeez typically gives them a chance to 'correct' the story.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Geek of Ages

I'd rather the law to the alternative.


False dichotomy, no law at all is not the only alternative to the law being an ass.

Dominions Son

@red61544

ASSTR still exists (but god knows for how long.)


ASSTR being in the US, is safe from prosecution on child pornography grounds.

There have been cases of authors of pedo stories being prosecuted on obscenity charges (different law, different constitutional issues) for their stories. However, in all such cases I've read about the stories were more than just under age sex, more than even sex between adults and prepubescent children.

The stories that have gotten authors charged under obscenity laws all involved forcible, violent rape and/or torture of very young children (under 8).

ASSTR is dying not because of any legal issue, but mostly because readers and authors are abandoning it due to the tolerance of pedo stories and moderators are getting older with no successors in sight.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

That's not to say that others don't try to play fast and loose with the rules, but they're usually caught (typically when other readers report the stories).


I reported one that I never even bothered to read (Lazeez checked it out and removed the story).

I saw it in the new stories list and the info on the story was contradictory. it was tagged as male teen/female teen, but then the blurb described the male as being 12 (which would not be a teen).

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

ASSTR is dying not because of any legal issue, but mostly because readers and authors are abandoning it due to the tolerance of pedo stories and moderators are getting older with no successors in sight.

The fact the lost most of their funding sources when the credit card companies refuse to honor contributions certainly didn't help much. Once that happened, I knew they were circling the drain, as they really had no way to continue financially.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

Write for Hollywood. They get away with anything.

Just saw "Life as a House" again. The kids are in high school. Under 18? Most likely. In fact, the girl actress was 17 in real life.

The boy and girl have 2 shower scenes. One she drops her panties and steps into the shower (with him in it). In another shower scene, he ejaculates and she says something like, "I'm not cleaning that up." And another of the high school boys has sex with the girl's mother.

And I just saw "The Florida Project." The mother is prostituting and her John walks in on her 7-yo daughter in the bathtub.

The laws are so hypocritical.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Bondi Beach
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Just saw "Life as a House" again. The kids are in high school. Under 18? Most likely. In fact, the girl actress was 17 in real life.

The boy and girl have 2 shower scenes. One she drops her panties and steps into the shower (with him in it). In another shower scene, he ejaculates and she says something like, "I'm not cleaning that up." And another of the high school boys has sex with the girl's mother.


They can skirt around it on the nudity front by "careful framing"/composition of the shot. In some examples, it is possible the person actually was covered "where it mattered" from a censor/legal action perspective but the shot gives a different impression.

So you get "profile shots"(or "rear shots") w/out nipples or vulva showing and those get a pass. Ditto with "nude scenes" where the character in question always seems to have something(or someone) blocking the view of "the forbidden parts." Those get a pass as well.

A lot of it is arbitrary and somewhat capricious in nature, and it pleases nobody except a handful of lawyers who earn retainer fees from it.

Edit to add: In the manga example from earlier, that was likely "part of the equation" as well. Seeing as they're based in Ontario, which is a "Top-Free" province by judicial decision, claiming female breasts to be pornographic on that grounds alone, without respect to age, has a hurdle to clear.

And as the Japanese censors only seem to be concerned about the crotch these days, that part was "obscured by steam" in that particular scene. Which leaves a potential prosecution case in Canada with a unique challenge regarding a fictional event that harmed nobody.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Not_a_ID

They can skirt around it on the nudity front by "careful framing"/composition of the shot.


It wasn't the nudity. It was having underaged characters in sexual situations.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Switch Blayde

It wasn't the nudity. It was having underaged characters in sexual situations.


"Artistic expression in a true-to-life portrayal of adolescent transition into adulthood" or comparable phrasing that I recall from a SCotUS ruling. That the studio in question likely had deep pockets that could easily rival the funding of any prosecutor pursuing the case likewise came into play.

Which cycles back to lawyers not pursuing cases they suspect are likely to work against them. They'd prefer to keep the law on the books, so they're not going to risk the law being tossed out in full due to pursuing a case against "a technical violation."

So in the meantime, "Those with the gold make the rules" is the golden rule that prevails.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

So in the meantime, "Those with the gold make the rules" is the golden rule that prevails.

More likely, 'those with the gold continue diddling little boys'. Luckily, the #MeToo generation seems to be catching up to a few of them.

Vlad_Inhaler

It struck me last night that there is a Canadian author here who has stories about a child-friendly nudist resort, that pretty much ticks all the boxes.
I can't supply a link when using my phone but Lordshipmayhem is easy enough to find without one.

Replies:   JohnBobMead
JohnBobMead

@Vlad_Inhaler

All posted prior to the legislation being enacted, and thus grandfathered.

Replies:   Joe_Bondi_Beach
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Just saw "Life as a House" again. The kids are in high school. Under 18? Most likely. In fact, the girl actress was 17 in real life.


I think you overlooked the son's encounter (a BJ apparently) with a neighbor. Key plot point [SPOILER ALERT] when neighbor attempts to get construction stopped for exceeding the height limit. Then son shows up and neighbor realizes who he solicited sex with and withdraws complaint.

ETA: Which only adds additional example to your point.

bb

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Ernest Bywater

he doesn't want a detailed or graphic description of them nude,


As others have pointed out, work with the site owner on exact language. That said, the written guidance says "can't be described nude," which is pretty plain English.

bb

Replies:   richardshagrin  Wheezer
richardshagrin

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

"can't be described nude,"

Most everyone is nude under their clothing. Is wearing a towel nude? Do characters have to wear bathing suits while taking a bath?

Wheezer

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

As others have pointed out, work with the site owner on exact language. That said, the written guidance says "can't be described nude," which is pretty plain English.


Lazeez needs to clarify, as the sentence is ambiguous. Does this mean no child can ever be nude in a story, or the child's nudity cannot be described? I would think that there would be no problem simply stating that a child was nude, but there will be no descriptions of quivering hairless pudenda or puffy moist pussy lips, etc.

Replies:   robberhands  Not_a_ID
robberhands

@Wheezer

I would think that there would be no problem simply stating that a child was nude, but there will be no descriptions of quivering hairless pudenda or puffy moist pussy lips, etc.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Sounds reasonable to me.


Since when has law been based on sense? :(

AJ

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

Since when has law been based on sense?


Since the third Tuesday after the 5th of never.

robberhands
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Since when has law been based on sense? :(

Sorry, I didn't know Wheezer was citing a law.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Not_a_ID

@Wheezer

Lazeez needs to clarify, as the sentence is ambiguous. Does this mean no child can ever be nude in a story, or the child's nudity cannot be described? I would think that there would be no problem simply stating that a child was nude, but there will be no descriptions of quivering hairless pudenda or puffy moist pussy lips, etc.


It is the (detailed) description of their nudity, and in particular "naughty bits" which is, and should be, the problem. Particularly when/if "developing," "undeveloped," or "underdeveloped" starts to get brought up frequently in conjunction with those descriptions.

YMMV, and while there are conceivably situations where the use would be valid..

There have been enough other instances of it being used to provide what seemed to be "erotic emphasis" around the forbidden/taboo nature of the act rather than say a clinical description of physical trauma induced by adult penetration of an underaged person.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Sorry, I didn't know Wheezer was citing a law.


I accept your apology ;)

IMO he was making an intelligent supposition about what is necessary to keep SOL away from the attention of a malevolent prosecutor, so the law is the root cause of the issue.

AJ

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

It is the (detailed) description of their nudity, and in particular "naughty bits" which is, and should be, the problem. Particularly when/if "developing," "undeveloped," or "underdeveloped" starts to get brought up frequently in conjunction with those descriptions.

In short, nudity is fine, but salacious details are not. However, with that said, I'd still run anything by Lazeez, just so he doesn't think you're trying to pull a fast one on him.

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

Since when has law been based on sense? :(


it used to, but then we when from clan based chieftain leadership making the laws to kings etc, then screwed it up royally with elected thieves.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

when from clan based chieftain leadership making the laws to kings etc, then screwed it up royally with elected thieves.

I don't see how elected thieves could screw it up royally. Kings could, but unless the elected thieves are royal, they can't do anything royally. Maybe royally is a synonym for badly. Is there a significant difference between screwing something up and screwing it down?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Is there a significant difference between screwing something up and screwing it down?

A stepladder.

Mike-Kaye

@docholladay

I am a reader and personally have noticed how much he tries to work with the writers here.


I had an under 14 (Rule 7) problem. After consulting with Lazeez my 13yo MC, Z'z explicit sexual activity was mentioned without being explicit. See chapter 1 of 'Z : Facing the World (and Getting Paid)'.

Hey, why not find it now and plan to start reading at the preface. My chapters are short and sequential but mostly unconnected to future chapters. (So don't worry that I am not done writing about Z.)

This is what I had to do to follow rule 7.

(1) Fran and I were nude around the house from the time we were potty trained.
This was okay as is.

(2) Fran and I (still nude as I had removed my dress when I saw the fluffer do her thing) …
This is replaces some of the action rewritten as (3).

(3) [Z's mom speaking] "I smiled when I saw you experimenting with your sexuality. But he [assumed age: 10] was not ready for a blowjob."
I had originally written a not very successful BJ given by my 13yo MC to a 10yo boy. The lack of success was due to the boy's lack of interest.

(4) We followed our mom's tradition of wearing nothing when at home. We would hug and kiss each other. Our hugs and kisses expressed our love for each other in a most pleasant way.
Originally 13yo Z and her 11yo sister were getting each other sexually aroused.

I was concerned that Z's back story would have to be totally redesigned. Also,I wanted to show nude is how Z likes to 'dress'. Also I wanted to show her sexual leanings from an early age. And I had already written the part where the 10yo boy, at 15, became the lead-in to Z working as a prostitute.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Mike-Kaye

if it walks like a pedo bear, barks like a pedo bear and gropes children like a pedo bear, then it's pedo.


As CW said earlier in this thread, "if it walks like a pedo bear, barks like a pedo bear and gropes children like a pedo bear, then it's pedo".

My personal opinion is a pedo story can be reworked to meet Lazeez's rules, but the flavor of the story is still pedo. I don't care for pedo and I don't plan on reading your story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Joe_Bondi_Beach

@JohnBobMead

All posted prior to the legislation being enacted, and thus grandfathered.


And without overt sexual activity. His "Manatee Bay" universe stories are "No Sex," if I'm remembering correctly. He goes more for humor.

bb

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@REP


As CW said earlier in this thread, "if it walks like a pedo bear, barks like a pedo bear and gropes children like a pedo bear, then it's pedo".


Now, after all this discussion, I want to write a no-sex Pedo Bear story, where a poor bear, who prefers being sans pants (like Yogi), keeps getting hassled everywhere he goes.

Maybe I'll call it "Poor, Poor Pedo Bear Gets Pooped On", and then I can watch the scores drop when everyone realizes it's not what they'd hoped.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Maybe I'll call it "Poor, Poor Pedo Bear Gets Pooped On", and then I can watch the scores drop when everyone realizes it's not what they'd hoped.


Have someone dump a bucket of poop on him like they did with blood in Carrie, and then you can add the scat tag.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Ernest Bywater

You could have his sister Pedo bear give him a full body massage with her body - Frottage. Then you could add the Incest tag and the Big/Small Breasts tag.

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