Is there a way to make the program open at the bottom of the last page typed? I open and close mine a lot while doing research and have to scroll to the bottom each time.
Is there a way to make the program open at the bottom of the last page typed? I open and close mine a lot while doing research and have to scroll to the bottom each time.
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/95260/how-can-i-set-my-documents-so-that-the-open-at-the-bottom/
Or click the "END" button on your keyboard.
I've never altered my copy from the default setting of where to open, and it always opens where I last typed and saved before closing, be that at the bottom or in the middle while editing.
Cursor Position
In general, all documents open with the cursor at the start of the document.
One exception appears when the author of a Writer text document saves and reopens a document: The cursor will be at the same position where it has been when the document was saved. This only works when the name of the author was entered in Tools - Options' - LibreOffice - User Data'.
Press Shift+F5 to set the cursor to the last saved position.
Is there an equivalent for Open Office?
My WIP is nearly 70K words long and I'm currently joining up scenes I wrote some time ago. So when I commence a new writing session, the start point is well into the second half of the document but some way from the bottom. It takes a while to find it each time.
AJ
Is there an equivalent for Open Office?
I would try what was said above. Libre Office started life as Open Office 3 when the owners of that time, Oracle, wanted to make it more linked to Oracle proprietary software and the bulk of the people working on OO moved house to start up LO and make it less dependent on Oracle software and Java. So huge amounts of the way it works are the same as OO.
The 'help' for OO contains the same instruction virtually verbatim. My name must have been inserted in the User Data during installation because it's there yet I never deliberately inserted it. However Shift+F5 doesn't work. I suspect it's because I'm saving my documents in MSWord format for ease of interchange with fellow authors :(
AJ
I suspect it's because I'm saving my documents in MSWord format for ease of interchange with fellow authors :(
do what I did, talk them into using LO instead of buying the latest version of MS Word / MS Office when they get a new computer. That saves them money as well.
In the UK, it's pretty much impossible to buy a new PC without getting a year's worth of MSOffice 'free'. :(
AJ
I've only ever seen one laptop in SE Asia pre-installed with Linux. The price was significantly higher than a comparable model with M$.
I bought it anyway. The second time I returned it to HP to repair "Cannot install any software", I told them to put that $#!& on it. :(
Dell used to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed, but at a considerable premium to their Windows PCs. Microsoft's price-fixing is almost as bad as Apple's :(
AJ
Microsoft's price-fixing is almost as bad as Apple's
But at least with Apple, you know you're getting something for the money. The computer will last much longer than most PCs, it won't have the various bloatware, and best of all, it actually works!
I've used PCs for years, and continue using one now as I wait for my desktop to finally kick the bucket, but I've NEVER been impressed with the quality of the discount crap they sell.
HP to repair
HP = Horrible Product
All the big firms who sold pre-installed included MS Windows in the price regardless of how it came, because of their contract with MS required they did that.
HP = Horrible Product
HP's computers are crap. On the other hand, I've rarely had problems with HP printers.
I've rarely had problems with HP printers.
A few years ago, a report into printers targeted at the home market found that the life expectancy of a budget HP printer was less than a ream of paper :(
AJ
A few years ago, a report into printers targeted at the home market found that the life expectancy of a budget HP printer was less than a ream of paper
1. That would be contrary to my personal experience, but then I don't typically buy the budget printers.
2. The average user buying a budget printer would probably take 5 years or more to go through a full ream (500 sheets).
3. When you get down to the budget printers, it's cheaper to buy and new printer than to buy replacement ink cartridges.
4. I doubt any other brand of budget printer would last that much longer.
1. I believe it was in a Which! report. The HP printers had a substantially shorter life expectancy than the competition.
3. Sadly true.
AJ
A few years ago, a report into printers targeted at the home market found that the life expectancy of a budget HP printer was less than a ream of paper :(
I recently (several months ago) bought a fairly expensive HP color laser printer. It goes into 'standby mode' so it doesn't use too much electricity (???), which means it's completely unresponsive to commands to print after only a few minutes of inactivity (i.e. if you haven't printed for the last five minutes, forget about ever being able to print again!).
It was the biggest waste of money I've ever spent! :(
I've rarely had problems with HP printers.
Except getting drivers to make it work with anything but the version of windows available at the time of release is a major issue. Even drivers for older or later versions of Windows are often not available for them.
I've only ever seen one laptop in SE Asia pre-installed with Linux. The price was significantly higher than a comparable model with M$.
I bought it anyway. The second time I returned it to HP to repair "Cannot install any software", I told them to put that $#!& on it. :(
Every single time I've ever purchased a new computer, I wipe the entire system and install a fresh (if somewhat old) version of the operating system, as I don't trust the various bloatware most PC software comes with. Installing Linux is no harder than installing Windows 7.
In the UK, it's pretty much impossible to buy a new PC without getting a year's worth of MSOffice 'free'. :(
and what happens after that year is over? They make you pay through the nose. That happened with my brother when he got a new computer, he simply never opens the Macroshaft Office and loaded Libre Office onto the system, never di have to pay them a cent..
In the UK, it's pretty much impossible to buy a new PC without getting a year's worth of MSOffice 'free'.
That doesn't mean you're required to sign-up, and the 'free' offer is only for a month, after which you'll pay a steep monthly fee for the rest of your natural life! That's hardly a bargain.
you'll pay a steep monthly fee for the rest of your natural life! That's hardly a bargain.
Only if you lease it. I bought Office on my Mac so I only had to pay one time. The couple of hundred dollars it cost was money well spent.
My WIP is nearly 70K words long and I'm currently joining up scenes I wrote some time ago. So when I commence a new writing session, the start point is well into the second half of the document but some way from the bottom. It takes a while to find it each time.
Call me old-fashioned, but I always put a tilde character ("~") wherever I was last editing, so I won't lose my place. Depending on software to always remember your last position sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Need the - between old and fashioned.
Here we go again... but I think it's:
You're an old-fashioned guy.
You're old fashioned.
When it precedes the noun, it's hyphenated. When it comes after the noun it is not.
When it precedes the noun, it's hyphenated. When it comes after the noun it is not.
... except that dictionaries list some adjectives as always hyphenated. Both the Oxford Dictionary and dictionary.com list the correct spelling of the adjective as 'old-fashioned' ... and by that they mean in all positions.
dictionary.com list the correct spelling of the adjective as 'old-fashioned'
Except all their examples have it before the noun.
except that dictionaries list some adjectives as always hyphenated.
I don't know if this is accurate, but it's from: https://www.writingforums.org/threads/last-one-on-hyphens.132662/
****General Rule: And if a dictionary lists a word as a hyphenated adjective, we do NOT hyphenate it after a to-be verb or other verb, correct?
Example:
old-fashioned (adj.)
He had old-fashioned ways. (Hyphens.)
But: He was old fashioned. (No hyphens.)
In the first example, "old-fashioned" is actually a compound word, and I would leave the hyphen. But it looks like modern English is moving away from this practice, so I suppose it could go either way.
When it precedes the noun, it's hyphenated. When it comes after the noun it is not.
... except that dictionaries list some adjectives as always hyphenated. Both the Oxford Dictionary and dictionary.com list the correct spelling of the adjective as 'old-fashioned' ... and by that they mean in all positions.
I'd always hyphenate it, simply because it's entirely possible (if unlikely) for someone to interpret "old fashioned" as a geezer dressed in a Zoot suit!
If there's any chance that readers may misconstrue your meaning, hyphenate away!
I'd always hyphenate it, simply because it's entirely possible (if unlikely) for someone to interpret "old fashioned" as a geezer dressed in a Zoot suit!
True. Another, somewhat forced, example:
"That is an old fashioned sword." ie forged a long time ago; no stylistic implications.
"That is an old-fashioned sword." ie stylistically archaic; no date of manufacture implications.
AJ
"That is an old fashioned sword." ie forged a long time ago; no stylistic implications.
"That is an old-fashioned sword." ie stylistically archaic; no date of manufacture implications.
I would definitely use a comma after 'old' in the first sentence to resolve a potential ambiguity. Without one, many readers will misinterpret real examples.
The natural order of adjectives allows you to omit commas between modifiers - it does not forbid you from using them!
I understand why you used a "forced" example. My feeble mind was incapable of conjuring up a realistic example too when I tried recently.
I would definitely use a comma after 'old' in the first sentence to resolve a potential ambiguity.
"That is an old, fashioned sword."
You've disconnected the old from the fashioned. That wasn't my intention: the old still modifies the fashioned but with a different meaning to the term 'old-fashioned'.
AJ
"That is an old, fashioned sword."
You've disconnected the old from the fashioned. That wasn't my intention: the old still modifies the fashioned but with a different meaning to the term 'old-fashioned'.
I can see two meanings:
"That is an old and fashioned sword."
"That is an old-fashioned sword."
I think using the comma and 'and' give the same meaning. I cannot see the "different meaning" you're intending to convey.
I explained the different meanings in my original post.
I understood that. I think using a hyphen between 'old' and 'fashioned' has one meaning, and the other meaning could be written written with a comma, 'and', or nothing between them.
"old-fashioned" means archaic
"old fashioned" could be replaced by oldenly fabricated.
I don't think oldenly and fabricated should be separated by a comma any more than old and fashioned in this sense.
Is 'old' actually functioning as an adverb in this sense? My dictionary doesn't list "old" as possibly being an adverb - noun and adjective only - but we've encountered such adverbs before.
AJ
Is 'old' actually functioning as an adverb in this sense? My dictionary doesn't list "old" as possibly being an adverb - noun and adjective only
Within the adjectival phrase it is functioning as an adverb, but I cannot think of any way to use it on its own as an adverb.
"old fashioned" could be replaced by oldenly fabricated.
I don't think you can say that. You could say:
It's fashioned as in the olden days.
It's fashioned using an old technique.
I don't think you can say that. You could say:
It's fashioned as in the olden days.
It's fashioned using an old technique.
I thought much the same. The possibilities which occurred to me were "old-style" and "Ye Olde Stiyel".
It's fashioned as in the olden days.
It's fashioned using an old technique.
No. In my forced example, the intended meaning is 'manufactured a long time ago'.
AJ
No. In my forced example, the intended meaning is 'manufactured a long time ago'.
Okay, but you are not going to like this. I have the answer. You won't like it, but, if you insist, I have a solution for your problem. Trust me, you ain't gonna wanna hear it. For what you're after, you need "old fashioned-sword."
you need "old fashioned-sword."
No, he's using fashioned as a verb. To fashion. To manufacture.
But he can't use "old" as an adverb to modify the verb the way he wants.
I know my example is very forced, and using 'old' in that way is very unusual, but I don't understand why you say I can't use it.
I've been struggling to think of a synonym. How about "an anciently fashioned sword"?
AJ
How about "an anciently fashioned sword"?
It still doesn't work. As soon as you place 'old' or something similar in front of 'fashioned', everyone instinctively combines it to old-fashioned. That's why the sentence 'It was an old fashioned forged sword' does work. I still would hyphenate it into 'old-fashioned forged sword', though. You may even use a comma and write 'an old-fashioned, forged sword'.
ETA: I made a mistake. It should be, ' It was an old-fashionedly forged sword', right?
I've been trying to use a distinction between two meanings of 'fashioned': trendiness and manufacture. To me, 'old-fashioned' refers to a lack of trendiness.
The UK used to have a thriving industry in replica cars kits - the purchaser would use eg a Ford as a donor car and replace the body with a supplied kit, usually made from fibreglass. The authorities would still consider the result a modern-day Ford, but it would look like a classic from yesteryear. So the car would be stylistically old-fashioned even no part of it would be more than a decade old.
I hope that explains my thinking a bit better,
AJ
I hope that explains my thinking a bit better
I'd probably accept "old-fashion" for what you want; I'd probably use "old-style" myself.
More relevant perhaps, is there an expression for someone who starts by making some pathetically lame pedantic point and manages to drag it out into an extended exchange? Have you got anything better than "old fart" to use here, you ...? :-)
Have you got anything better than "old fart" to use here, you ...?
I ate too much garlic at lunchtime. I can send you a new fart if you like. Now, which direction is Indonesia ...
AJ
I hope that explains my thinking a bit better,
I thought my comment exemplified that I understood you just fine. I guess, I thought wrong.
I don't understand why you say I can't use it.
I've been struggling to think of a synonym. How about "an anciently fashioned sword"?
Because "old" isn't an adverb.
look at this.
I looked. I vowed never to return to that site.
To spare others the effort of going back somewhere to check the name of a site you never want to return to, it is called www.wordhippo.com.
I vowed never to return to that site.
What's wrong with the site? I think it's an attractively fresh design and the features are comfortably easy to handle.
It told me 'old' and 'oldly' were valid adverbs!
The site told you 'oldly' is the adverb of 'old', as does the Living Oxford Dictionary site and many others.
The site told you 'oldly' is the adverb of 'old'
To me, it is clearly suggesting 'old' is an adverb too.
But check out this???
This shows it better.
But check out this???
Bah, I already answered Switch Blayde, who made a similar illogical remark.
'The oldly wed couple decided to have a second honeymoon.'
ETA:
To me, it is clearly suggesting 'old' is an adverb too.
It is?
What's the adverb for old? Here's the word you're looking for.
That's what the site stated.
@ Me
But check out this???
@ You
Bah, I already answered Switch Blayde,
But did you look at the other example ...
It says 'oldests' is a noun??????
But did you look at the other example ...
OK, let's forget that stupid site. It was butt-ugly designed anyway.
Perhaps they should reconvene the original Star Trek crew - to oldly go ...
Nah ... to baldly go ...
"Please don't send me back there. Anything but that!"
- Patrick Stewart
The site told you 'oldly' is the adverb of 'old'
It listed old and oldly as adverbs of old.
Compare with happy - it only lists happily.
AJ
Not so hasty, look at this.
I did. They didn't give an example. I have one for "oldly."
He walked oldly (like an old person).
But I don't believe "old" is an adverb.
They didn't give an example.
You know it yourself, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
But I don't believe "old" is an adverb.
I believe there's a lot more fluidity about the components of language than grammarians would like. We've seen other examples in this forum where adjectives have been co-opted as adverbs.
Besides, I imagine it annoys those who like to straitjacket language into a strict set of rules: that alone makes it worthwhile using 'old' as an adverb ;)
AJ
I imagine it annoys those who like to straitjacket language into a strict set of rules
My only strict rule is it must not make the speaker sound like an ignoramus.
How about "an anciently fashioned sword"?
A historically correct sword or a period sword
In my forced example ...
'Tis time to volley back your attacks on our sanity with a realistic example!
My fabricated three-word phrase is "real time machine".
Obviously, you need "real-time machine" for a machine that gives immediate, rather than delayed, responses.
The other meaning is for something that really is a time machine, e.g. "Yes, the DeLorian is a real, time machine."
AJ, do you really think it is unreasonable to write that as 'real time-machine' instead of 'real time machine'?
AJ, do you really think it is unreasonable to write that as 'real time-machine' instead of 'real time machine'?
It looks grotesque, but again I think the hyphen works better than the comma.
AJ
It looks grotesque, but again I think the hyphen works better than the comma.
Okay. My example words did not work out as well as I thought it would while sitting at the mall having my morning coffees.
While I don't understand your objection to unnecessary commas between adjectives to assist clarity, this one, with a comma just before the phrasal noun is awful.
The obvious solution for this one would be "real time machine". I have suggested some weird-looking options lately. As a theorist, I can't help thinking, "surely there must be some alternative that does not rely on fonts for emphasis!"
I think I finally get the third meaning you're trying to achieve with your forced example. Hm? I think that meaning may require "old-fashion-fashioned sword", although I'll grant you, that looks like Grotesque's deformed love-child with Elephant Man.
Sorry, but to me, that just looks wrong.
Agreed. In fact I conceded above it is awful to have a comma between an adjective, 'real', and a phrasal verb, 'time machine'.
The lesson is: those who seek to throw rotten eggs at others - even in jest - should beware of ending up with egg on their faces. No doubt, that lesson will sink in as effectively as it did on the thousands of previous times I have "learnt" it. :(
In my forced example ...
'Tis time to volley back your attacks on our sanity with a realistic example!
My fabricated three-word phrase is "real time machine".
Obviously, you need "real-time machine" for a machine that gives immediate, rather than delayed, responses.
The other meaning is for something that really is a time machine, e.g. "Yes, the DeLorian is a real, time machine."
AJ, do you really think it is unreasonable to write that as 'real time-machine' instead of 'real time machine'?
you may want to download this document:
documentation.libreoffice.org/en/english-documentation/writer/
and read what it has to say on Setting Reminders
Now you've got me REALLY WORRIED!
CMOS lists these examples:
a middle-class neighborhood
the neighborhood is middle class
OED lists these:
a middle-class attitude
The magazine is very middle-class.
Both OED and dictionary.com list the adjective form as 'middle-class' and the noun as 'middle class'.
My tentative conclusion - which fills me with horror - is "only hyphenate before nouns" only applies to AmE, not BrE.
My next stop will be Harts New Rules. I will report back soon ... provided I don't have a nervous breakdown.
"only hyphenate before nouns"
It was Grammar Girl who said:
The quick and dirty tip for using hyphens is to check a dictionary or style guide. If you don't have one handy, follow the rule that you hyphenate compound modifiers when they come before a noun, and don't hyphenate them when they come after a noun.
But in the last reference I quoted from, they were talking about before/after the "to be" verb, not a noun.
As to CMOS, Grammar Girls says:
The reason I didn't say that I absolutely should have hyphenated "noise canceling headphones" is that if leaving out the hyphen causes no ambiguity, some style guides, such as the Chicago Manual of Style, say it's OK to leave it out; and I don't think anyone would read my meaning differently with or without a hyphen.
Grammar Girls says:
The reason I didn't say that I absolutely should have hyphenated "noise canceling headphones" is that if leaving out the hyphen causes no ambiguity, some style guides, such as the Chicago Manual of Style, say it's OK to leave it out; and I don't think anyone would read my meaning differently with or without a hyphen.
Honestly, SB, she's talking complete crap there. When she said they "say it's OK", what they said was prefaced with an unless we explicitly stated what is required for your current situation. In 7.85, it's big table listing when to hyphenate, for both "noun + participle" and "adjective + participle", it says, "Hyphenated before but not after noun."
BUT, I have found something that I think may be very helpful for you, knowing you work hard looking for hyphens you may remove - safely - while others might routinely use them.
The advice Grammar Girl was giving is actually sound, and it is true, even CMOS agrees. It states at 7.80
Where no ambiguity could result, as in 'public welfare administration' or 'graduate student housing', hyphenation is unnecessary.
The only problem is that "noise canceling" is the wrong example. In fact, in BrE, that example should (according to style guides and dictionaries) not only be hyphenated before a noun, but when someone says, "Yes, these headphones are noise-cancelling."
BUT, the good news ... I found this quote in Harts New Rules 3.3.3.
A distinction may be made between compounds containing an adjective, such as first class or low level, and compound nouns, such as labour market: when compounds of the first sort are used before a noun they should be hyphenated (first-class seats, low-level radioactive waste), but the second sort need not be (labour market liberalization).
Note how this fits with examples CMOS gives for when 'hyphenation is unnecessary'. All of the words in the examples from both guides are nouns: public, welfare, graduate, student, labour, and market.
I think that gives me something I can use to find compound adjectives that do not need to be hyphenated, both efficiently and safely ... if the compound consists of only nouns then check if the hyphen may be eliminated without introducing any potential ambiguity. :)
It's previously been observed that there's an evolutionary progression, from separate unhyphenated words, to hyphenated words, to concatenated words.
The examples bothering you are in the process of evolving from separate unhyphenated words to hyphenated words. Put the hyphens in and you will be English2150 compliant.
AJ
The only problem is that "noise canceling" is the wrong example.
If I remember the blog, she was defending herself. Someone called her on not hyphenating "noise canceling" so she wrote a blog on hyphenation and stated the CMOS to justify not hyphenating "noise canceling."
We're all human.
We're all human.
She is good at what she does. It is certainly human to hold on to something that provides plausible deniability if you only a mistake once in a blue moon. :)
Here's the iron-clad rule on hyphens: "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go made. Use them indiscriminately, however you feel like it, and your editors must change them at their sole discretion.
OED also lists the adjective 'up to date' with these examples:
This technology is bang up to date.
up-to-date clothes
My AmE dictionaries (dictionary.com and Collins) both list 'up-to-date' [but neither gives any examples of it being used after a noun].
CMOS does list these examples:
His equipment was up to date
an up-to-date solution
New conclusion - AmE and BrE are very different.
AmE dictionaries show compound adjectives as hyphenated and assume that will be dropped when not used before a noun.
BrE dictionaries may show compound adjectives as hyphenated or open. If they show hyphenated that means hyphenated in all positions. If they show open they assume hyphens will be added when they are used before a noun.
I amm haaaveeen a n-n-nerrrv us b-b-braaake d-d-d ....
My guess is if you got 4 editions of 4 style guides and looked up how to treat hyphenated words and what should be hyphenated, you would get several different options ranging from "never hyphenate in this case" to "always hyphenate in this case" possibly passing through "hyphenation is optional in this case."
I would not be surprised to learn that different editions of the same style guide had different recommendations - possibly even changing their recommendation and then going back to the original one.
My guess is [style guides are all different].
NO! This has nothing to do with any style choices.
This evidence suggests AmE and BrE dictionaries are different.
Their assumptions about what writers will do if they list a compound adjective as being hyphenated appear quite different. :(
This evidence suggests AmE and BrE dictionaries are different.
Dictionaries are just descriptions of how people use/write/pronounce words and phrases. Style choices are part of that.
Dictionaries are just descriptions of how people use/write/pronounce words and phrases. Style choices are part of that.
Dictionaries are descriptions of how people use/write/pronounced words twenty years ago, but they're notoriously out of date, as they're the last source to accept changing usage patterns, sticking to their guns despite overwhelming opposition by everyone else.
I wouldn't put much weight behind how dictionaries dictate how you use words. While I use them frequently, I really don't respect them as an authoritative voice on any subject.
I would not be surprised to learn that different editions of the same style guide had different recommendations - possibly even changing their recommendation
In one article I read, it said the AP Style guide dropped the hyphen in "email" but not in "e-commerce."
For fuck's sake!
I KNOW there is a huge variety in whether different dictionaries and guides will prefer to list entries as single words, hyphenated, or separate words.
I'm saying (evidence suggests) American and British dictionaries expect writers to do different things when they list compound adjectives as hyphenated or separate words.
I've sent this same question to the Oxford Dictionary, CMOS, and stackexchange. Hopefully someone will bother to read what it says.
My (BrE) OED and (AmE) dictionary.com both list the adjective 'middle-class' with a hyphen. The OED provides these examples:
a middle-class attitude
The magazine is very middle-class.
The (AmE) CMOS provides these examples:
a middle-class neighborhood
the neighborhood is middle class
OED lists the adjective 'up to date' with no hyphens and provides these examples:
This technology is bang up to date.
up-to-date clothes
dictionary.com lists the adjective 'up-to-date' with hyphens CMOS and provides these examples:
His equipment was up to date
an up-to-date solution
It appears the principle of hyphenating compound adjectives before nouns is treated differently by dictionaries using BrE and AmE. It appears:
* BrE dictionaries may list compound adjectives as hyphenated or not; they assume writers will always hyphenate them before nouns, but
* AmE dictionaries always compound adjectives as hyphenated; they assume writers will NOT hyphenate them after nouns.
American and British dictionaries expect writers to do different things
...I'm not sure why this is a particularly big revelation, to be honest.
For fuck's sake!
I KNOW there is a huge variety in whether different dictionaries and guides will prefer to list entries as single words, hyphenated, or separate words.
I'm saying (evidence suggests) American and British dictionaries expect writers to do different things when they list compound adjectives as hyphenated or separate words.
I've sent this same question to the Oxford Dictionary, CMOS, and stackexchange. Hopefully someone will bother to read what it says.
My (BrE) OED and (AmE) dictionary.com both list the adjective 'middle-class' with a hyphen. The OED provides these examples:
a middle-class attitude
The magazine is very middle-class.
The (AmE) CMOS provides these examples:
a middle-class neighborhood
the neighborhood is middle class
OED lists the adjective 'up to date' with no hyphens and provides these examples:
This technology is bang up to date.
up-to-date clothes
dictionary.com lists the adjective 'up-to-date' with hyphens CMOS and provides these examples:
His equipment was up to date
an up-to-date solution
It appears the principle of hyphenating compound adjectives before nouns is treated differently by dictionaries using BrE and AmE. It appears:
* BrE dictionaries may list compound adjectives as hyphenated or not; they assume writers will always hyphenate them before nouns, but
* AmE dictionaries always compound adjectives as hyphenated; they assume writers will NOT hyphenate them after nouns.
DOESN'T ANYBODY GET THE POINT I AM MAKING?
I know different dictionaries list the same expressions differently - especially between BrE and AmE - and they all frequently (if belatedly) change their minds.
I had thought ALL DICTIONARIES at least meant the same thing when they showed a compound adjective with a hyphenated form or not.
Apparently NOT!?
I have found examples which show the Oxford Dictionary thinks:
We list as hyphenated = You should hyphenate in all positions
We list unhyphenated = You should hyphenate before nouns but not after
In contrast, examples in CMoS and the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary show they think:
We list as hyphenated = You should hyphenate before nouns but not after
We list unhyphenated = That can't happen; we don't do that
In contrast, examples in CMoS and the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary
Keep in mind, CMOS is not a dictionary. It's a style guide.
Why does it surprise you that BrE and AmE have different rules? Simply look at punctuation differences. For that matter, spelling differences.
Why does it surprise you that BrE and AmE have different rules?
1. BECAUSE when I write or edit anything written in AmE I want to punctuate expressions in the style the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary recommends, but when I write or edit anything written in BrE I want to use the style the Oxford Dictionary recommends.
2. BECAUSE our numerous, interminable discussions here on this subject have NEVER identified any differences in what you may need to do AFTER looking your preferred dictionary de jour.
I am neither surprised, nor care, that there are differences -- I just want to understand what any differences are!
the style the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary recommends
Dictionaries don't recommend styles; they report on the styles people use.
I once read an article on how the Oxford English Dictionary is updated. They don't have the staff to revalidate every entry for each issue, they can barely cover 10%. So basically they don't bother much unless someone complains, concentrating their efforts on finding new words and emoticons to include.
I would expect other dictionaries to follow the same strategy, so any particular entry might be decades out of date ie styles people used to use.
AJ
DOESN'T ANYBODY GET THE POINT I AM MAKING?
Yes, I get your point, I got it from the beginning, and I'm surprised you've only just now noticed this.
I'm surprised you've only just now noticed this.
If it is so, I'm surprised nobody here has ever mentioned it, at least not as far as I recall during the last 18 months or so.
That is neither here nor the other ...
If you know, PLEASE confirm that my recent "discovery" is correct:
1. AmE dictionaries list compound adjectives with their hyphenated form. They assume those using know that means hyphens should not be used when the expression is not before a noun.
2. BrE dictionaries may list compound adjectives with either their hyphenated form or as separate words. They assume those using know that means the form they show should be used when the expression is not before a noun, but the hyphenated is used when before a noun.
Are you aware of any references which explicitly state this difference?
I had thought ALL DICTIONARIES at least meant the same thing when they showed a compound adjective with a hyphenated form or not.
Do you not read the front matter that tells you how to read/interpret entries in the dictionary? That's where it goes over the conventions of orthography, notation, notability, and so on.
Just like any math text book, which you want to glance through the beginning to see how it defines certain symbols and functions, because different books mean different things with the same symbols.
Even with pronunciation, the only real standard between dictionaries is if they use IPA, but that's still a rarity—and you still have to define which dialect of English you are ever describing (which I think is why dictionaries don't do it often, because even words as simple as "pen" or "cot" or "bag" have different pronunciations in different parts of America. Oxford does IPA, But it claims that it's doing it for RP, last I checked)
Anyways: dictionaries are not proscriptive authorities. They are descriptive references.
dictionaries are not proscriptive authorities. They are descriptive references.
Do you really think you're telling me anything I don't already know?
Do you not read the front matter
I know my Oxford Dictionary very well. I was not assuming all dictionaries give the same definitions for all words. I was assuming WHEN two different dictionaries provide definitions of words or expressions with the same punctuation, they would both punctuate similar example sentences in the same way.
If you take the time to understand what follows, you will see why I am disturbed by the discovery they do not so something that basic the same.
The OED and M-WD both list the adjective 'middle-class' with a hyphen.
The OED provides these examples:
a middle-class attitude
The magazine is very middle-class.
The M-WD provides these examples:
a middle-class neighborhood
the neighborhood is middle class
OED lists the adjective 'up to date' with no hyphens and provides these examples:
up-to-date clothes
This technology is bang up to date.
M-WD lists the adjective 'up-to-date' with hyphens and provides these examples:
an up-to-date solution
His equipment was up to date
M-WD lists the adjective 'up-to-date' with hyphens
Dictionaries define words. "Up to date" is three words. I think that's why the dictionary shows it as "up-to-date" (one word) with an explanation that under certain conditions the hyphens are left out.
Btw, I don't look for ways to remove hyphens. My inclination is to write the words without hyphens. Then, if I think the hyphens are needed, I add them.
Dictionaries define words.
I think I've figured what is this difference (the one I just noticed) between BrE and AmE dictionaries - and why. It's too close to my bedtime to post it now.
I don't look for ways to remove hyphens.
Seriously, you could start now! I discovered an entire class of compound adjectives, which are easily found and checked for potential ambiguities. Usually there will be none and it is then safe to omit the hyphen. That class is any two nouns which as a pair are functioning a (single) modifier of a noun.
disturbed by the discovery they do not so something that basic the same
No more disturbed than I am that some math textbooks include 0 in the natural numbers, and some do not.
No more disturbed than I am that some logic textbooks use a dash with a hook in it to mean "not" and others use a tilde and still others use a hat.
No more disturbed than I am that sometimes the first law of thermodynamics is written with a plus and other times with a minus, and different textbooks choose one.
Why are you so disturbed that there is not One Almighty Standard handed down from on high, as you seem to ache for?
Why are you so disturbed that there is not One Almighty Standard handed down from on high, as you seem to ache for?
This is not some Grammar Nazi's wet dream. I was simply very surprised because it never occurred to me that the statement, "The dictionary defines it as an adjective," could require a clarifying question, "Which dictionary?"
I have figured it out. British and American dictionaries are different, but there's a logical enough reason for it. I'll post an explanation tomorrow.
In contrast, examples in CMoS and the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary show they think:
We list as hyphenated = You should hyphenate before nouns but not after
We list unhyphenated = That can't happen; we don't do that
It would help if you could quote a single British English dictionary besides the Oxford. This might not be a British English vs American English thing as much as a particularity of the Oxford staff, but we don't know because the Oxford has a virtual monopoly over British dictionaries.
I'm not sure I'd jump to conclusions about ALL British English just because of a single source expressing their individual opinion.
I'm not sure I'd jump to conclusions about ALL British English just because of a single source expressing their individual opinion.
I did not jump to any conclusions. I started asking to find out so that I would not jump to any suspect conclusions.
It would help if you could quote a single British English dictionary besides the Oxford.
I wish I could. I do not have a local library I could go to research this and I've already bought the best dictionaries the only decent local bookshop in town has.
This thread is getting more traffic so I'll ask my question here. Please read this thread. https://storiesonline.net/d/s2/t3493/what-the-hell-have-i-done
Out of 82 replies 6 are on topic
Perhaps you could try over at the What the Hell Am I Doing Here? thread? :-)
ETA: Come to think of it, that sounds like where I belong too. :-)
Out of 82 replies 6 are on topic, is this a record??
Could be. It's certainly a higher proportion than in the last thread I started ;)
AJ