Forum: Author Hangout

With the number of votes your top-ranking story received my current story-in-progress was somewhere around a score of 7.5, I think. There are really not enough votes for a safe prediction or analysis.

If you can't evaluate your scores after seven years, then why bother with scores at all?

I thought the reason for this thread was that you recently noticed a significant change, i.e. raising of scores. Did I misunderstand that?

These are stories that have been around for YEARS (2000 - 2012).

I'm not understanding something. The oldest story I see for you has a posting date of 3/29/2012. Are these reposts?

That's a known score-gaming tactic. Readers who didn't like the original won't bother to read it again. Readers who liked the original will re-read it and give it high marks.

You can look at it like that and I'm certain it even works. Essentially, it's the same as not allowing votes until the complete story is posted. In effect, that's also a 'score-gaming tactic'; as is, not allowing votes until at least several chapters are posted. All these measures reduce the number of negative votes from readers who abandon a story.

that's also a 'score-gaming tactic' ... All these measures reduce the number of negative votes from readers who abandon a story.

Thank you for those constructive suggestions.

There are so many mechanism influencing the voting, a score-by-dice would represent a reasonable alternative scoring system. But I've heard the system on SOL will never be changed again.

Readers like the scoring system ...

How do you know that? Because about ten-percent of the readers vote, supporting the system? Or maybe because you read some glowing reader recommendations I'm not aware of?

Yes, readers do indeed like the scores.

That isn't the same as liking the system which creates the scores. A system they don't know, wouldn't understand, and which is treated like a dirty secret.

(hint, hint).

I don't need your hints.

Do I have state that SOL is the greatest story site on the internet? I already did that, and I'm serious about it. But do I have to repeat it every time I voice a critique?

I heard often enough that Lazeez is annoyed about the discussions about the scoring system. He is a big boy, though. My customers love to complain as well and annoy the shit out of me at times. So what? That's life.

How you'd translate that into a personal attack on your support for SOL is beyond me.

...I was responding to your previous post...

How is the score calculated? And how does scoring work in general?

THAT is why I thought robberhands was in for a public flogging.
NOT for saying he dislikes the scoring system
... BUT for saying it was a "treated like a dirty secret."
That is simply NOT TRUE!

That is simply NOT TRUE!

You shan't talk about it and its effects are disguised to be become forgotten, That's exactly how you treat a dirty secret.

Do you know the latest change made to the voting system? You can find it here:

Change when scoring a story...

Do you know the latest change made to the voting system? You can find it here:

I went there are someone had suggested:

[Perhaps] he got tired of the "why did my high vote make the score drop?" questions.

He posted the answer "Correct."
I do not see the removal of an instantaneous display of the effect one vote had on a story's score as a change in the system.
The justification for that tweak seems reasonable to me.
There was no effort to keep what was changed a secret, or why it was done.
I am content with the underlying philosophy attempting to produce average scores of six even though the average vote is higher. I think it works well enough on the macro-scale, but on the micro-scale it's a bit like quantum physics: if you observe any particular particle you're going to notice some things that appear really strange.

Then maybe you can answer the simple question:

Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?

What a damn ass! Shut up and sit down, you're embarrassing yourself.

If I would view other stories on SOL as competition, which I don't, I should be happy about the scoring system as it is. The scores of my three stories range among the top 5% of scores on SOL and the scoring system is rather an advantage for my scores in a competitive sense.

The scores of my three stories range among the top 5% of scores on SOL and the scoring system is rather an advantage for my scores in a competitive sense.

NO! They would all be in almost identical positions within the competitive scale if raw scores were used - and that applies to the one you think was downgraded more than the others.

NO! They would all be in almost identical positions within the competitive scale if raw scores were used - and that applies to the one you think was downgraded more than the others.

They are in the absolutely same position rank-wise, just the distance between the stories is widened on the scale.

The information is very easy to find, if you can be bothered to look for it. It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.

Really? In this case you should be able to answer a simple question.

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

To be clear, by 'the same' I mean the same numeral reduction, not the same philosophical value of fairness.

Every story is handled in the same way by the use of the same process and formula. That makes the system uniform and fair.

Just as I suspected, another attempt at misdirection. It was simple question, you could have answered it with a yes or no. But of course you didn't. So much about 'It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.'

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

Is still my question.

Your answer:

Every story is handled in the same way by the use of the same process and formula. That makes the system uniform and fair.

That's a pile of hog-shit and its purpose is misdirection.

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

As I understand it, two votes of 8 made today for different stories both receive the same amount added to their accumulated votes. Two votes of 8 made last week for same two stories both receive the same amount. One week they might both receive, say, 6.35 and the other week they might both receive 6.38.

My answer to your question is YES!

And you would be wrong. That's what I meant when I said the effects of the system are disguised. Just look at Ernest wriggling to avoid a clear answer.

Depending on their mathematical closeness to the raw median score, stories receive different deductions. The FAQs state a score of perfect ten is possible. How would that be possible if every story receives a deduction?

The scoring system is a elaborate mathematical formula. A mathematical formula is neither fair nor unfair. You constantly apply philosophical values of 'fairness' to it. I don't. Why can't you simply answer that different stories receive different deductions to their score? Why all this babble about fairness?

To make something abundantly clear. I have absolutely no doubt that Lazeez views the system he created as the best option avaiable and his reasons have absolutely nothing to do with any malicious intent.

He made a list of what goals to reach with his formula and the formula he created works exactly as intended.

In my opinion he sacrifced too much for the goals he reached. But neither his reasons nor mine have anything to do with personal gain.

If the formula doesn't treat everything in the same manner, it's unfair, if it treats everything in the same manner it's fair - no philosophy involved at all.

According to your criteria, a formula using the letters of an author's name by applying a numeric value to them, and then calculating a score based on it, would be fair.

According to your criteria, a formula using the letters of an author's name by applying a numeric value to them, and then calculating a score based on it, would be fair.

I think you are beginning to descend into unethical debating techniques with that one.

You think "Same Scores + Different Times = Different Results" is unfair.
The rest of us think it's fair enough - provided "Same Scores + Same Times = Same Results".

If that's the only point you're making, we understand it already, and it's way past time for you to stop repeating it.

You think "Same Scores + Different Times = Different Results" is unfair.

The rest of us think it's fair enough - provided "Same Scores + Same Times = Same Results".

No, I don't apply a term like 'fairness' to a mathematical formula. 2+2 = 4 is neither fair nor unfair.

Neither do I care about the fairness to apply the same formula to old and new stories. Whatever gave you that idea?

Since I never made that point, I cannot stop repeating it.

My main complaint concerning the scoring system has very little to do with fairness. I think it's too complicated and intransparent.

That's also a reason why people complain. People complain about things they don't understand but feel affected by. Not you and yours, of course.

too complicated and intransparent

I think it's a simple enough process to understand and described adequately.
The only thing missing from a complete description is where you said:

AFAIK, only Lazeez knows the formula he uses. Like everyone else I only can observe the effects.

I just gave that post a Thumbs Down and asked Lazeez to respond to it by naming the algorithm he uses, with hopefully a Wiki link.

The mathematics is too complicated for some or many to fully understand. So what? I would not agree that the method of calculation should be dumbed down just so more can understand what is being done. I don't understand the mathematics used so the plane I will be boarding in about 25 hours can fly, but I don't want Airbus changing the way they build planes just so I can feel more "comfortable" they know what they are doing.

And you would be wrong.

Are you saying my "as I understand it ..." is wrong, or my "my answer is ..." is wrong?
If it's only the latter I think we should agree to disagree rather than you asserting I am wrong.

I didn't interpret your argumentation as another attempt to avoid a simple answer, so it confused me.

To answer my question 'Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?' with yes, was wrong, though.

What exactly do you want us to disagree about?

What exactly do you want us to disagree about?

You think "same score deduction" means two stories with identical sets of raw scores must have identical final scores.

I think it means two stories with identical sets of raw scores posted at identical times must have identical final scores - but sets of scores posted at different times may have slightly different final scores.

I think the amount of random variation in scores the calculation method causes to stories being posted nowadays is too small to bother thinking about. I have my doubts about the "validity" of scores for stories posted long ago.

I think it means two stories with identical sets of raw scores posted at identical times must have identical final scores - but sets of scores posted at different times may have slightly different final scores.

I don't have to look far. I've three stories on SOL. Each of the stories receives a different deduction. The story with the lowest score receives the heighest deduction because its score is closer to the median. You may call it 'moved down the scale' if you don't like the term deduction.

I don't have to look far. I've three stories on SOL.

This possessor of a Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences degree thinks you're looking at the wrong thing.
Good night. It's 05:20 local time and I'm going to sleep (I hope).

Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences

Many of the Math degrees work as actuaries or find further training and become accountants. Job opportunities may increase as census workers. Sperm counters would tend to be Biology majors or working in the medical field.

re: Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences
I don't actually know what that means. It suggests you're ... someone who does the counting for sperm counts.

That's what it's called. Effectively, it's a B.Sc. with majors in mathematics, for me Applied and Pure Mathematics.

True, I heard the expression 'bunch of gormless wankers' used at times, but I pretended not know who they were talking about.

Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?

There is no score deduction.

What happens is the highest and lowest 5% of votes are removed before the score is calculated.

After removing the outliers an average of the votes is calculated.

After that, IIRC the scores are weighted in a way designed to push the average score to 6.

Measuring the impact of any given vote is difficult.

The more votes a story has, the less impact any single vote will have on the over all score.

Things get even stranger when your vote pushes to the next higher whole number for outlier removal. In this scenario, a high vote can actually cause the score to drop and a low vote can cause the score to increase.

After that, IIRC the scores are weighted in a way designed to push the average score to 6.

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?

You aren't pushing or raising a number on a scale, you are pushing the average. There are lots of different ways to do weighted averages. I don't know which one Lazeez is using.

You aren't pushing or raising a number on a scale ...

SOL FAQ:

Stories with raw scores closest to the raw median are moved the most on the scale. Stories closer to the extremes are moved less.

The scores are a weighted average of the raw votes after outliers are removed.

Any system for calculating a weighted average, will shift the average. There are thousands of different methods for weighting averages.

The average score is an average of averages.

Which weighting method is used by , only Lazeez knows. As far as I know he has not shared that specific information with anyone.

All we know for sure is that the weighting is done so that the average story score is 6 rather than the 5 that would otherwise be expected from a 1-10 voting system.

Which weighting method is used by , only Lazeez knows.

Yes.

I perceive a lower score after it's weighted as a reduction of its score compared to the raw score it received.

the average story score is 6 rather than the 5 that would otherwise be expected from a 1-10 voting system.

I think a 5.5 would be expected from a 1-10 voting system, IF there were equal numbers of votes for each score. I added 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 and got 55. Divided by ten gives 5.5. Its been a long time (1967) since I got my Bachelor of Business Administration degree in Business Statistics and Operations Research. Maybe I used the wrong method to calculate the average. If I add one and ten and divide by two, I still get 5.5. To get 5 I would have to add one and nine and divide by two.

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?

I believe something like this is possible

10 = 10
9 = 8.67
8 = 7.33
7 = 6.00
6 = 5.17
5 = 4.33
4 = 3.50
3 = 2.67
2 = 1.83
1 = 1

I believe something like this is possible

AFAIK, only Lazeez knows the formula he uses. Like everyone else I only can observe the effects.

Ah, yes, the old 'every time someone tells me I'm wrong, it's evidence of a massive conspiracy against my [supposed] truth'.

A wider spread of the scores on the 1-10 scale was one of the goals Lazeez named way-back-when he introduced the weighted scoring system. I guess the vast majority of scores would cumulate between 7-10 without the weighted scoring system. How do you reach such a goal? I'm nowhere near a mathematician, but my guess would be, his formula applies diverging deductions to the raw scores. The diverging reductions are based on the closeness of a score's raw average to the raw median of all scores. At least that's how I understand the FAQ.

it's just not worth Lazeez wasting any more time trying to placate authors

If authors paid the site to get higher ratings, it might be profitable to change the rating system. Lets hypothesize, if you don't pay you get a 1. If you pay $1,000 your story gets a 10. Would a 9 be worth $900? It wouldn't be as good a guide to readers. Anything below a 6 would probably be pretty cheap. Maybe $2 for a 2?

I always wonder where do you get all your ideas. Do you have a huge ass?

I always wonder where do you get all your ideas. Do you have a huge ass?

I am not a member of the Democratic Party. I used to be a Republican, and had a huge elephant. I tend now to be an independent and hold my nose when I vote.

I saw a claim a few years back that one or two authors here had people (or duplicate IDs) prepared to vote their stories up as soon as they appeared.
Someone was named but I can't remember who, just that it was not the Harry Lime gestalt.

I remember that one too. IIRC Lazeez mentioned someone opened several hundred accounts and bombed new stories. Whether it was an author or someone from a competing site wasn't certain at the time.

It's been a while since I last witnessed a good public flogging. This will be fun.

You bring the whips, I provide the popcorn.

You bring the whips, I provide the popcorn.

Damn! I felt sure Lazeez would descend from the mountain and blast you with lightning bolts for your heresy. :(

Damn! I felt sure Lazeez would descend from the mountain and blast you with lightning bolts for your heresy. :(

Maybe I'm paying more respect to his maturity by not cowering in fear of his ire, than by pledging unconditional devotion at the foot of Mount Lazeez.