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An Interesting Thing Happened to my Scores While I Wasn't Paying Attention

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

I just noted something interesting in my scores, which I haven't really studied in detail for some time. Seems all my old stories—the same ones where readers responded negatively to their favorite characters dying in the end—have all now rising to some of my highest scores. True, it's taken years for this effect to occur, but it shows that my traditional 'tragic hero' motif has longevity, even if it initially disappoints.

Whereas once, the final books in my "Catalyst" series (where Alex dies), my "Great Death" series (where everyone leaves David to strike out on their own (and another favorite character dies tragically), "Stranded in a Foreign Land" (where the lead characters leave the Earth, never to be heard from again) are all the highest scores in the series, whereas they were the worst in the series for years after I first posted them.

In fact, the scores of several of those books (most notably "Seeding Hope Among the Ashes"), were so poor I'd assumed readers were sick of the characters and thus avoided writing the sequels I'd long planned.

I'm not sure what triggered this seismic shift in my scores (from worst to best scores), but it's interesting. I'm unsure whether reader's opinions have changed over time, or whether there's a new wave of readers with an entirely new opinion of the story. Personally, I suspect it's my long-term readers reevaluating the story and voting for the books which provoke the strongest emotions on the tenth or twenty-fifth readings.

Any opinions or similar observations from anyone else?

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Your assumptions might be correct this time. I just looked and noticed the number of votes for your top-five ranking stories are pretty low, so they can be raised much easier than scores with a high number of votes.

Crumbly Writer

Another oddity, though it's probably better explained by the low number of votes on the less-frequented site, the score of my latest story, "Speaking With You Demons" is much lower than the first book, "The Demons Within", on FS than it is on SOL.

It's interesting whether that's because of the FS readership expecting a different type of story, the random votes of a small number of voters, or the desire for a different type of story.

I guess only time, and more votes, will reveal the truth.

Replies:   robberhands  REP
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

With the number of votes your top-ranking story received my current story-in-progress was somewhere around a score of 7.5, I think. There are really not enough votes for a safe prediction or analysis.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

With the number of votes your top-ranking story received my current story-in-progress was somewhere around a score of 7.5, I think. There are really not enough votes for a safe prediction or analysis.

"Seeding Hope Among the Ashes", the 3rd Great Death book, has a score of 8.33 and 318 votes. "Building a Legacy", Catalyst #6, has a score of 8.41 and 491 votes. These are stories that have been around for YEARS (2000 - 2012). Other stories might have more votes, but these are my highest vote counts and my highest scores.

If you can't evaluate your scores after seven years, then why bother with scores at all? I didn't have an issue with the scores themselves, but with the reversal of the scores within the series (from the first books being the highest rated and the last being the lowest rated, to the last now being the highest rated, and the earliest being lower rated).

At the time, the later books probably didn't get as many scores as the earlier stories, as more people will read the first book in a series than will finish the entire series, but that doesn't change the books rating in the series.

But this isn't a definitive trend in story ratings, it's just an off-hand observation about MY stories. I'm asking whether anyone has observed anything similar, or whether this is isolated to my stories (or possibly tied to my taking 6 of the stories off-line to the "Premiere Only" category).

Replies:   robberhands  jimpierce08
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

If you can't evaluate your scores after seven years, then why bother with scores at all?

I thought the reason for this thread was that you recently noticed a significant change, i.e. raising of scores. Did I misunderstand that?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@Crumbly Writer

or the desire for a different type of story.


I enjoyed the first story better than what you have posted of the second story.

In the first story, Phil was challenged by local police and people, and then by the medical community.

So far, and hopefully with it being a spoiler, Phil is in the driver's seat and in control of the approach he is following. The only challenge so far appears to be him trying to keep a low profile. That is not as interesting to me.

jimpierce08

@Crumbly Writer

These are stories that have been around for YEARS (2000 - 2012).

I'm not understanding something. The oldest story I see for you has a posting date of 3/29/2012. Are these reposts?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

I thought the reason for this thread was that you recently noticed a significant change, i.e. raising of scores. Did I misunderstand that?

I just noticed a complete reversal of the scores, though how long ago they occurred is an open question. As I originally stated, I hadn't really examined my overall stats in detail for some time, especially for my older stories, which don't change as frequently as the newer ones.

@REP

I enjoyed the first story better than what you have posted of the second story.

So far, and hopefully with it being a spoiler, Phil is in the driver's seat and in control of the approach he is following. The only challenge so far appears to be him trying to keep a low profile. That is not as interesting to me.

That was my other point. The scores of the two "Demonic Issues" books are widely different on SOL and on FS. On SOL, the second book is clearly favored, while on FS, they seem to prefer the first. But as robberbands noted, the number of votes for the two stories is still relatively small, with fewer readers than for most of my other stories (seeing as my more recent stories all deal with death ("Zombie Leza"), mental illness and homelessness ("Demonic Issues").

It's strange, because I've observed that most of my beta readers commented that the first book was my "best", while most struggled to finish the 2nd (though that might simply be the added length (more and longer chapters). Also, the first book dealt primarily with health care issues (the 'medical establishment' vs alternative health care), while the 2nd deals with man negotiating with imaginary creatures. Thus the scores on these stories appear to reflect different reader values.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@jimpierce08

I'm not understanding something. The oldest story I see for you has a posting date of 3/29/2012. Are these reposts?

I did an extensive revision of my original Catalyst series, expanding it from 4 books (not yet completed) to 6 in 2012. Thus all the original scores got flushed down the tubes (I physically deleted the entire story and republished it, so it would appear as a new story, since I'd wanted to evaluate whether a complete rewrite was a good or poor idea.)

Note: Typo. I meant "2010 to 2012", not "2000 to 2012". :(

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

I physically deleted the entire story and republished it, so it would appear as a new story, since I'd wanted to evaluate whether a complete rewrite was a good or poor idea.


That's a known score-gaming tactic. Readers who didn't like the original won't bother to read it again. Readers who liked the original will re-read it and give it high marks.

AJ

robberhands
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


That's a known score-gaming tactic. Readers who didn't like the original won't bother to read it again. Readers who liked the original will re-read it and give it high marks.

You can look at it like that and I'm certain it even works. Essentially, it's the same as not allowing votes until the complete story is posted. In effect, that's also a 'score-gaming tactic'; as is, not allowing votes until at least several chapters are posted. All these measures reduce the number of negative votes from readers who abandon a story.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

that's also a 'score-gaming tactic' ... All these measures reduce the number of negative votes from readers who abandon a story.

Thank you for those constructive suggestions.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

There are so many mechanism influencing the voting, a score-by-dice would represent a reasonable alternative scoring system. But I've heard the system on SOL will never be changed again.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  REP
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

That's a known score-gaming tactic. Readers who didn't like the original won't bother to read it again. Readers who liked the original will re-read it and give it high marks.

That wasn't the intent, though I can see how some may try to 'game' the system that way.

Not everything is an active conspiracy.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

There are so many mechanism influencing the voting, a score-by-dice would represent a reasonable alternative scoring system. But I've heard the system on SOL will never be changed again.

It all boils down to who gains. The only people complaining about the scoring system are the authors, while the scoring system was designed for readers, so the authors, while they're allowed a vote, aren't the beneficiaries of the scoring system. Readers like the scoring system, so it stays as is. This problem is worsened because no two authors can agree on a better solution.

With limited time and having to maintain the entire system himself, it's just not worth Lazeez wasting any more time trying to placate authors who feel the system isn't personally benefiting them!

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Readers like the scoring system ...

How do you know that? Because about ten-percent of the readers vote, supporting the system? Or maybe because you read some glowing reader recommendations I'm not aware of?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

Readers like the scoring system


While I haven't received any e-mails from readers who like the scoring system, I've received several from readers who dislike it.

AJ

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@awnlee jawking

While I haven't received any e-mails from readers who like the scoring system, I've received several from readers who dislike it.


People's actions speak the loudest.

Wherever sorting by score is available on the site, it's used for more than 50% of all queries.

Yes, readers do indeed like the scores.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

How do you know that? Because about ten-percent of the readers vote, supporting the system? Or maybe because you read some glowing reader recommendations I'm not aware of?

I 'know' that simply because they don't complain about it the way that authors do. Either they approve, or they simply don't care, but either way, it means it's not the bugaboo it is for us authors.

The scores are ONLY there to help readers find interesting stories, not to please author's egos.

robberhands

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Yes, readers do indeed like the scores.

That isn't the same as liking the system which creates the scores. A system they don't know, wouldn't understand, and which is treated like a dirty secret.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

That isn't the same as liking the system which creates the scores. A system they don't know, wouldn't understand, and which is treated like a dirty secret.

The fact they use it demonstrates it's beneficial to readers. You don't need to know how something is prepared to enjoy cookies. The fact you eat them is enough—though the occasional "Thanks, that was terrific" goes a long way in ensuring your supply continues (hint, hint).

Replies:   robberhands
REP

@robberhands

There are so many mechanism influencing the voting, a score-by-dice would represent a reasonable alternative scoring system.


Someone could change the scoring system again, and again, and again in multiple attempts to improve the system. That is not going to work because what cannot be changed or controlled is the way readers use the scoring system.

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

(hint, hint).

I don't need your hints.

Do I have state that SOL is the greatest story site on the internet? I already did that, and I'm serious about it. But do I have to repeat it every time I voice a critique?

I heard often enough that Lazeez is annoyed about the discussions about the scoring system. He is a big boy, though. My customers love to complain as well and annoy the shit out of me at times. So what? That's life.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Most of the complaints I get are on the form "I don't understand why your story only has a score of X when it's much better story than those with a score of X+n."

That's music to the ears of my fragile ego, but I imagine most authors receive a certain amount of feedback of that form.

As for sorting by scores, I do that myself sometimes. That's confirmation the scoring system is useful. But whether it's the best possible and universally loved is an endless rabbit-hole of an issue.

AJ

Ross at Play

Hmm.

treated like a dirty secret

It's been a while since I last witnessed a good public flogging. This will be fun.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

It's been a while since I last witnessed a good public flogging. This will be fun.

You bring the whips, I provide the popcorn.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

You bring the whips, I provide the popcorn.

Damn! I felt sure Lazeez would descend from the mountain and blast you with lightning bolts for your heresy. :(

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Lazeez is bigger than that. He may not be happy that not everyone reveres the scoring system but he won't curtail free speech on the subject unless it becomes vindictive.

And as for pubic flogging, everyone concerned has to be at least 14 years old. ;)

AJ

robberhands
Updated:

@Ross at Play


Damn! I felt sure Lazeez would descend from the mountain and blast you with lightning bolts for your heresy. :(


Maybe I'm paying more respect to his maturity by not cowering in fear of his ire, than by pledging unconditional devotion at the foot of Mount Lazeez.

richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

it's just not worth Lazeez wasting any more time trying to placate authors

If authors paid the site to get higher ratings, it might be profitable to change the rating system. Lets hypothesize, if you don't pay you get a 1. If you pay $1,000 your story gets a 10. Would a 9 be worth $900? It wouldn't be as good a guide to readers. Anything below a 6 would probably be pretty cheap. Maybe $2 for a 2?

robberhands

@richardshagrin

I always wonder where do you get all your ideas. Do you have a huge ass?

Replies:   richardshagrin
Vlad_Inhaler

@richardshagrin

I saw a claim a few years back that one or two authors here had people (or duplicate IDs) prepared to vote their stories up as soon as they appeared.
Someone was named but I can't remember who, just that it was not the Harry Lime gestalt.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Vlad_Inhaler

I remember that one too. IIRC Lazeez mentioned someone opened several hundred accounts and bombed new stories. Whether it was an author or someone from a competing site wasn't certain at the time.

richardshagrin

@robberhands

I always wonder where do you get all your ideas. Do you have a huge ass?

I am not a member of the Democratic Party. I used to be a Republican, and had a huge elephant. I tend now to be an independent and hold my nose when I vote.

Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

A system they don't know, wouldn't understand, and which is treated like a dirty secret.


That's not the case, unless they never bothered to look. On most pages the top right corner has a link called Help click on that for the FAQ and the fifth down in the General Category is: How is the score calculated? And how does scoring work in general? - which takes you to:

https://storiesonline.net/h/8/how-are-scores-calculated-and-how-does-scoring-work-in-general

The information is very easy to find, if you can be bothered to look for it. It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

How is the score calculated? And how does scoring work in general?

THAT is why I thought robberhands was in for a public flogging.
NOT for saying he dislikes the scoring system
... BUT for saying it was a "treated like a dirty secret."
That is simply NOT TRUE!

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

(hint, hint).

I don't need your hints.

Geez! Don't get your panties in a bunch. The "hint" wasn't directed at your, it was an aside to readers, suggesting that responses to the authors is often the best way to encourage authors. How you'd translate that into a personal attack on your support for SOL is beyond me.

Although I was responding to your previous post, the hint was an aside, unrelated to your comments.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

The information is very easy to find, if you can be bothered to look for it. It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.

Really? In this case you should be able to answer a simple question.

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

To be clear, by 'the same' I mean the same numeral reduction, not the same philosophical value of fairness.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

How you'd translate that into a personal attack on your support for SOL is beyond me.

...I was responding to your previous post...

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

If authors paid the site to get higher ratings, it might be profitable to change the rating system. Lets hypothesize, if you don't pay you get a 1. If you pay $1,000 your story gets a 10. Would a 9 be worth $900? It wouldn't be as good a guide to readers. Anything below a 6 would probably be pretty cheap. Maybe $2 for a 2?

My biggest complaint about the scoring system isn't about how it's conducted, but the score range. We'll always get 1-votes, but other sites, most notably Amazon, eBay or similar sites, only allow a vote of 1 - 5 or 1 - 4. Readers really have no quantitative basis to differentiate between a 6 or 7 vote, and with such a wide difference between 1 and 10, a vote of one has an outsized effect. Reducing the range of votes would both simplify the entire process, make it easier to use, and make the entire voting process simpler (for users).

I don't object to someone voting 1 on one of my stories, I just object to it's essentially countering several of my 10 votes. A protest vote is just that, it's designed to get your attention that someone is upset, but it shouldn't drastically alter the votes (lowering the total score) more than anyone else's.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

That is simply NOT TRUE!

You shan't talk about it and its effects are disguised to be become forgotten, That's exactly how you treat a dirty secret.

Do you know the latest change made to the voting system? You can find it here:

Change when scoring a story...

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

To be clear, by 'the same' I mean the same numeral reduction, not the same philosophical value of fairness.


Every story is handled in the same way by the use of the same process and formula. That makes the system uniform and fair.

I'm not sure what you're reaching for in the second paragraph by the introduction of philosophical values.

However you care to look at the system there are some points to keep in mind:

1. Other than a few contest prizes no on gets paid to post a story.

2. Beyond a couple of legal aspects there are no restrictions on what you can have in a story.

3. No one forces the authors to write and post the stories, other than the authors themselves.

4. No one is forced to read a story.

5. No one is paid to read a story.

6. No one is forced to vote, they do so voluntarily.

7. This is the most important point - The voting system is designed to assist readers in their story selection by showing how appealing other readers found the stories to be. That's its aim, and it does it, which is all it's meant to do.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

Every story is handled in the same way by the use of the same process and formula. That makes the system uniform and fair.

Just as I suspected, another attempt at misdirection. It was simple question, you could have answered it with a yes or no. But of course you didn't. So much about 'It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.'

Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

Just as I suspected, another attempt at misdirection.


You asked two questions, and I answered two questions as best as I could due to the unclear way you asked the questions. Based on past experience I feel sure you're next one will be along the lines of 'What colour is plaid?'

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

Is still my question.

Your answer:

Every story is handled in the same way by the use of the same process and formula. That makes the system uniform and fair.

That's a pile of hog-shit and its purpose is misdirection.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

Do you know the latest change made to the voting system? You can find it here:

I went there are someone had suggested:

[Perhaps] he got tired of the "why did my high vote make the score drop?" questions.

He posted the answer "Correct."
I do not see the removal of an instantaneous display of the effect one vote had on a story's score as a change in the system.
The justification for that tweak seems reasonable to me.
There was no effort to keep what was changed a secret, or why it was done.
I am content with the underlying philosophy attempting to produce average scores of six even though the average vote is higher. I think it works well enough on the macro-scale, but on the micro-scale it's a bit like quantum physics: if you observe any particular particle you're going to notice some things that appear really strange.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

Then maybe you can answer the simple question:

Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ross at Play
Updated:

@robberhands

Does every story receive the same score deduction?

As I understand it, two votes of 8 made today for different stories both receive the same amount added to their accumulated votes. Two votes of 8 made last week for same two stories both receive the same amount. One week they might both receive, say, 6.35 and the other week they might both receive 6.38.

My answer to your question is YES!

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

And you would be wrong. That's what I meant when I said the effects of the system are disguised. Just look at Ernest wriggling to avoid a clear answer.

Depending on their mathematical closeness to the raw median score, stories receive different deductions. The FAQs state a score of perfect ten is possible. How would that be possible if every story receives a deduction?

Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

Just look at Ernest wriggling to avoid a clear answer.


Not wriggling a statement of the facts. You've yet to explain why you think the system is philosophical. Mind you all the details of the scoring system have been explained in the past as well, and you participated in some of those discussion too, but you either ignored them, or refused to accept them.

The system as it is now is the fairest it can possibly be, regardless of what you think. The system does not change any story's place in the order of appeal, so it doesn't make any changes in that way at all. The system formula does allow for the scores from the past scoring systems to be unified into one in a way to make them all comparable. You either have a formula to do that or you throw away past votes and scores, this system incorporated all the older systems. This has been explained, but you still don't like it, stiff. Your constant complaints aren't going to get it changed to the way you want it.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

The scoring system is a elaborate mathematical formula. A mathematical formula is neither fair nor unfair. You constantly apply philosophical values of 'fairness' to it. I don't. Why can't you simply answer that different stories receive different deductions to their score? Why all this babble about fairness?

To make something abundantly clear. I have absolutely no doubt that Lazeez views the system he created as the best option avaiable and his reasons have absolutely nothing to do with any malicious intent.

He made a list of what goals to reach with his formula and the formula he created works exactly as intended.

In my opinion he sacrifced too much for the goals he reached. But neither his reasons nor mine have anything to do with personal gain.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

And you would be wrong.

Are you saying my "as I understand it ..." is wrong, or my "my answer is ..." is wrong?
If it's only the latter I think we should agree to disagree rather than you asserting I am wrong.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

I didn't interpret your argumentation as another attempt to avoid a simple answer, so it confused me.

To answer my question 'Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?' with yes, was wrong, though.

What exactly do you want us to disagree about?

Ross at Play
Updated:

@robberhands

What exactly do you want us to disagree about?

You think "same score deduction" means two stories with identical sets of raw scores must have identical final scores.

I think it means two stories with identical sets of raw scores posted at identical times must have identical final scores - but sets of scores posted at different times may have slightly different final scores.

I think the amount of random variation in scores the calculation method causes to stories being posted nowadays is too small to bother thinking about. I have my doubts about the "validity" of scores for stories posted long ago.

Replies:   robberhands
Dominions Son

@robberhands

Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?


There is no score deduction.

What happens is the highest and lowest 5% of votes are removed before the score is calculated.

After removing the outliers an average of the votes is calculated.

After that, IIRC the scores are weighted in a way designed to push the average score to 6.

Measuring the impact of any given vote is difficult.

The more votes a story has, the less impact any single vote will have on the over all score.

Things get even stranger when your vote pushes to the next higher whole number for outlier removal. In this scenario, a high vote can actually cause the score to drop and a low vote can cause the score to increase.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Dominions Son

After that, IIRC the scores are weighted in a way designed to push the average score to 6.

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?

robberhands

@Ross at Play

I think it means two stories with identical sets of raw scores posted at identical times must have identical final scores - but sets of scores posted at different times may have slightly different final scores.

I don't have to look far. I've three stories on SOL. Each of the stories receives a different deduction. The story with the lowest score receives the heighest deduction because its score is closer to the median. You may call it 'moved down the scale' if you don't like the term deduction.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Dominions Son

@robberhands

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?


You aren't pushing or raising a number on a scale, you are pushing the average. There are lots of different ways to do weighted averages. I don't know which one Lazeez is using.

Replies:   robberhands
Ross at Play

@robberhands

How do you push or raise a number on a scale?

I believe something like this is possible

10 = 10
9 = 8.67
8 = 7.33
7 = 6.00
6 = 5.17
5 = 4.33
4 = 3.50
3 = 2.67
2 = 1.83
1 = 1

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Dominions Son

You aren't pushing or raising a number on a scale ...

SOL FAQ:

Stories with raw scores closest to the raw median are moved the most on the scale. Stories closer to the extremes are moved less.

Replies:   Dominions Son
robberhands

@Ross at Play

I believe something like this is possible

AFAIK, only Lazeez knows the formula he uses. Like everyone else I only can observe the effects.

Dominions Son

@robberhands

The scores are a weighted average of the raw votes after outliers are removed.

Any system for calculating a weighted average, will shift the average. There are thousands of different methods for weighting averages.

The average score is an average of averages.

Which weighting method is used by , only Lazeez knows. As far as I know he has not shared that specific information with anyone.

All we know for sure is that the weighting is done so that the average story score is 6 rather than the 5 that would otherwise be expected from a 1-10 voting system.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

I don't have to look far. I've three stories on SOL.

This possessor of a Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences degree thinks you're looking at the wrong thing.
Good night. It's 05:20 local time and I'm going to sleep (I hope).

Replies:   awnlee jawking
robberhands
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Which weighting method is used by , only Lazeez knows.

Yes.

I perceive a lower score after it's weighted as a reduction of its score compared to the raw score it received.

Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

A mathematical formula is neither fair nor unfair. You constantly apply philosophical values of 'fairness' to it.


If the formula doesn't treat everything in the same manner, it's unfair, if it treats everything in the same manner it's fair - no philosophy involved at all.

Replies:   robberhands
Ernest Bywater

@robberhands


In my opinion he sacrifced too much for the goals he reached.


So you would rather he toss away all the old scores every time there was a change in the system, is that it? Lazeez created a way to take a bunch of mixed fruit and make them all into the same quality of fruit salad. It was either that or have a multiple scores showing from each period and system, or toss all the old stuff. He did a damn good job on it.

robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

If the formula doesn't treat everything in the same manner, it's unfair, if it treats everything in the same manner it's fair - no philosophy involved at all.

According to your criteria, a formula using the letters of an author's name by applying a numeric value to them, and then calculating a score based on it, would be fair.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@robberhands

According to your criteria, a formula using the letters of an author's name by applying a numeric value to them, and then calculating a score based on it, would be fair.

I think you are beginning to descend into unethical debating techniques with that one.

You think "Same Scores + Different Times = Different Results" is unfair.
The rest of us think it's fair enough - provided "Same Scores + Same Times = Same Results".

If that's the only point you're making, we understand it already, and it's way past time for you to stop repeating it.

robberhands
Updated:

@Ross at Play

You think "Same Scores + Different Times = Different Results" is unfair.

The rest of us think it's fair enough - provided "Same Scores + Same Times = Same Results".

No, I don't apply a term like 'fairness' to a mathematical formula. 2+2 = 4 is neither fair nor unfair.

Neither do I care about the fairness to apply the same formula to old and new stories. Whatever gave you that idea?

Since I never made that point, I cannot stop repeating it.

My main complaint concerning the scoring system has very little to do with fairness. I think it's too complicated and intransparent.

That's also a reason why people complain. People complain about things they don't understand but feel affected by. Not you and yours, of course.

Replies:   Ross at Play
richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

the average story score is 6 rather than the 5 that would otherwise be expected from a 1-10 voting system.

I think a 5.5 would be expected from a 1-10 voting system, IF there were equal numbers of votes for each score. I added 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 and got 55. Divided by ten gives 5.5. Its been a long time (1967) since I got my Bachelor of Business Administration degree in Business Statistics and Operations Research. Maybe I used the wrong method to calculate the average. If I add one and ten and divide by two, I still get 5.5. To get 5 I would have to add one and nine and divide by two.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences


I don't actually know what that means. It suggests you're not a mathematician per se but someone who eg does the counting for sperm counts.

AJ

richardshagrin

@awnlee jawking

Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences

Many of the Math degrees work as actuaries or find further training and become accountants. Job opportunities may increase as census workers. Sperm counters would tend to be Biology majors or working in the medical field.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

too complicated and intransparent

I think it's a simple enough process to understand and described adequately.
The only thing missing from a complete description is where you said:

AFAIK, only Lazeez knows the formula he uses. Like everyone else I only can observe the effects.

I just gave that post a Thumbs Down and asked Lazeez to respond to it by naming the algorithm he uses, with hopefully a Wiki link.

The mathematics is too complicated for some or many to fully understand. So what? I would not agree that the method of calculation should be dumbed down just so more can understand what is being done. I don't understand the mathematics used so the plane I will be boarding in about 25 hours can fly, but I don't want Airbus changing the way they build planes just so I can feel more "comfortable" they know what they are doing.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Just as I suspected, another attempt at misdirection. It was simple question, you could have answered it with a yes or no. But of course you didn't. So much about 'It's also easy to follow, well, I find it so.'

Ah, yes, the old 'every time someone tells me I'm wrong, it's evidence of a massive conspiracy against my [supposed] truth'.

Get over yourself.

Whether perfect or not, the system works for readers (aside from the few who were stroking your ego).

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Ah, yes, the old 'every time someone tells me I'm wrong, it's evidence of a massive conspiracy against my [supposed] truth'.

A wider spread of the scores on the 1-10 scale was one of the goals Lazeez named way-back-when he introduced the weighted scoring system. I guess the vast majority of scores would cumulate between 7-10 without the weighted scoring system. How do you reach such a goal? I'm nowhere near a mathematician, but my guess would be, his formula applies diverging deductions to the raw scores. The diverging reductions are based on the closeness of a score's raw average to the raw median of all scores. At least that's how I understand the FAQ.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Then maybe you can answer the simple question:

Does every story on SOL receive the same score deduction?

Yes, different stories can be adjusted differently. So now you're blaming SOL because you're being penalized because there are so many good authors here? What does that say about you as an author? That you think it's 'unfair' for you to compete with others, and that you deserve an unfair advantage?

What a damn ass! Shut up and sit down, you're embarrassing yourself.

Replies:   robberhands
Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

You think "Same Scores + Different Times = Different Results" is unfair.
The rest of us think it's fair enough - provided "Same Scores + Same Times = Same Results".


Ross,

I think it's clear he either doesn't understand, or want to understand how the system works to make the different systems from different periods match up to be comparable to each other and incorporated in the one value given. However, I'll try, again, to explain how they're brought in line in the hopes other will understand the system. This is all based on how I understand the system to work from the past discussions on scoring.

In the past nearly 20 years there have been five or six different scoring systems that worked in different way. Due to those differences it wasn't possible to just add the votes from one system into the next system's votes to get an average score. Thus things are done to the votes to make them compatible with the other scores. The process is applied to each period's scores before they're amalgamated to give the current final score. The calculations for the prior periods' votes are done and kept as a fixed result because they can't change now, due to the period being over, but the current period's votes change with every vote made.

- 5% of the outlier votes at the top and bottom of the votes for a story are removed before the score is calculated.

- The votes are all listed and a mean is calculated.

- An adjustment value is calculated to change the mean to a value of 6.

- All of the votes in that period are adjusted by the value calculated above.

- Now that all the votes being used have the same relative value to each other they're added up and an average is calculated.

The system does not change the order in which the stories are listed by the votes for the periods, and all stories are affected in the same way. What the system does do is to allow the votes from the different periods to be made compatible with each other so they can be incorporated into the one result to display to readers.

If this wasn't done then no story within the last few years would ever be able to get near the raw high votes and scores many stories got under the older systems, and thus be severely disadvantaged by the scores.

Thus the system treat all the stories in the same fair manner.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

re: Bachelor of Mathematical Sciences
I don't actually know what that means. It suggests you're ... someone who does the counting for sperm counts.

That's what it's called. Effectively, it's a B.Sc. with majors in mathematics, for me Applied and Pure Mathematics.

True, I heard the expression 'bunch of gormless wankers' used at times, but I pretended not know who they were talking about.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

You know, with all the rants in this thread, I never got a response to the initial question. Rather than responding to what I notice, first I was attacked, first for writing stories that no one liked, then for 'cheating' the scoring system, before a particular crazy person started howling at the moon about how unfair honest competition is.

If you can't discuss issues objectively, you've got no business in an online forum.

I'm sorry I ever posted this question, since it never did me a lick of good and it only proving Lazeez correct when he stated, years ago, that there's no sense trying to make the scoring system better because authors will NEVER be satisfied!

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

What a damn ass! Shut up and sit down, you're embarrassing yourself.

If I would view other stories on SOL as competition, which I don't, I should be happy about the scoring system as it is. The scores of my three stories range among the top 5% of scores on SOL and the scoring system is rather an advantage for my scores in a competitive sense.

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Thanks. Divided by a common language etc ;)

AJ

Ross at Play

@robberhands

The scores of my three stories range among the top 5% of scores on SOL and the scoring system is rather an advantage for my scores in a competitive sense.

NO! They would all be in almost identical positions within the competitive scale if raw scores were used - and that applies to the one you think was downgraded more than the others.

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

Lazeez, as the one who initiated this thread, please, close out and delete it, as it's helping no one, and is only serving as a soapbox for people to whine about the site.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

NO! They would all be in almost identical positions within the competitive scale if raw scores were used - and that applies to the one you think was downgraded more than the others.

They are in the absolutely same position rank-wise, just the distance between the stories is widened on the scale.

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