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9mm pistol

Switch Blayde

If you have a 9mm pistol with a fully loaded magazine inserted, will pulling the trigger fire a shot? Or do you first have to slide the thing on top to load the round into the chamber?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Wheezer

It is necessary to cycle the slide to place the first round in the chamber. Some shooters carry their pistol with a round in the chamber. Some don't. Some semi-auto pistols have a manual safety that can be engaged after a round is loaded in the chamber. Some don't. I own a Sig P320C. It does not have a manual safety. My old M1911 .45acp did have a manual safety. You might want to do a little research on handguns before you write something that firearms owners will criticize you for doing.

imsly1

Depends on the gun, if it's a 9mm revolver, yes , but on a semi auto , which is the most common, you have to pull the slide, to put a round in the chamber, once ...till you empty the magazine... then most guns will latch the slide open... then if you put a new magazine in, you hit the slide catch.. and it chambers a round, and it's ready to shoot..

Dominions Son
Updated:

It's also possible to manually chamber a round in a semi-auto pistol before inserting the magazine, giving you one extra shot. This is not advisable with guns that don't have manual safeties.

You can be vague about it and most readers knowledgeable about guns will let you get away with it. We will simply assume the character already had a round chambered before the scene started.

We are used to this kind of thing From Hollywood, the myth of endless ammo guns which started from the old (and I mean old) westerns. The prop guys re-loaded the guns between shots.

Me, I always assumed that if characters in a gun fight were off camera, that they were re-loading. Just like people going to the bathroom, and other daily necessities, it's not necessary to actively show characters re-loading unless it's necessary to the plot or the character empties his gun and needs to shoot again without going "off stage".

Now, if you are specific down to the model of the gun, you need to know that model's characteristics. The capacity of the stock magazine will vary from one model to the next, even with the same type and caliber of round.

9mm stock magazine capacities can be as low as 6 rounds for a compact automatic designed for concealed carry to as many as 20 rounds.

Replies:   Jim S
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Most military and ex military who carry a 9 mm pistol (as against a revolver) will fill the magazine, work the slide to load the first round into the chamber (required to have one in the chamber before the pistol can fire), engage the safety (if there is a manual safety) then remove the magazine and load another round into it to have a full magazine, re-seat the magazine. This is known as locked and loaded or loaded and locked - depending on which term you were taught by your trainer.

This is recommended by many organisations because it means the gun is ready to go immediately you draw it, otherwise you need to work the slide to chamber a round before firing, not always time to do that in an emergency situation. While flicking the safety off is a simple and fast action.

edit to add: The above applies to all semi-automatic pistols with the exception of engaging the safety on some pistols, because the Glock pistols (and a few others) have internal safeties that disengage when the trigger is pulled.

typo edit

docholladay

Of course the more detailed the description, the more you lay the story wide open for criticizer to tear it apart for mistakes. Sometimes the details are important when something has been customized but other times just the make and model are enough. Those interested in the details can easily look them up from that.
As mentioned having a round already chambered with or without a manual safety is an additional risk factor.

Switch Blayde

Thanks, all. That's what I thought.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Switch Blayde

Another key factor is to never have a finger on the trigger unless you are ready to actually shoot the gun. More accidental shootings occur because that rule is not followed than people would believe. I know its a rule that was made for single action revolvers, but its another example of how a basic rule applies to many things.

Jim S
Updated:

@Dominions Son


It's also possible to manually chamber a round in a semi-auto pistol before inserting the magazine, giving you one extra shot. This is not advisable with guns that don't have manual safeties.


Except for Glocks. A design feature, recent I believe, is the trigger can't be pulled unless the gun is held. Or so its claimed. Thats why it's the one I carry. With a chambered round.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

Okay, you guys got me nervous about gun people realizing I know nothing about guns. In this scene, the woman is wearing a belt around her waist. It has a loop for a nightstick and a holster for a pistol. It also has several pouches with full magazines (I assume different magazines fit different pistols so I have a compatibility consideration). She's a policewoman but she and the protagonist are going after the bad guys outside the law. Here it is:


Steele stepped back to scrutinize Cherry from head to foot. The end of a nightstick protruded below the hem of her sweatshirt so he lifted the bottom up. Her hand went to grab his, but it dropped to her side. A thin cotton tee-shirt protected her skin from the belt around her waist. The belt had a loop for the nightstick and a holster for the pistol. It also had several pouches.

Steele jabbed his finger at one leather pouch. "What's in them?"

"Extra magazines."

"That's not your police revolver."

"Nope."

"Nine millimeter?"

"Yeah."

"Can it be traced back to you?"

Cherry's eyes widened. "I guess so."

"Come with me."

Steele led Cherry to his den where one whole wall was filled with books. He removed a thick dictionary from a shelf and pulled a lever behind it. Part of the bookcase swung out like a large door. Behind it were all kinds of weapons hanging on the wall.

"Let me see your gun," Steele said.

Cherry handed it to him. After glancing at her pistol, he removed a compatible model off the wall and gave it to Cherry.

"Take this one," he said. "Leave yours here."

Cherry took the offered pistol. Her eyebrow raised when she noticed the filed area where the serial number had been, but all she did was release the magazine to check that it was full before snapping it back in.

"Always keep them loaded?" she asked.

"Never know when I'll need it. No round in the chamber, though."

Steele laid her pistol on the desk. "Let's go."


Let me know if I screwed up.

doctor_wing_nut

@Switch Blayde

I might have said "he removed the same model" instead of compatible, to make sure it was clear the spare magazines would work, but that's a bit of a nit-pick. Otherwise, it works as-is. Most mags are model-specific, although many Glocks can swap mags around in the same caliber.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Jim S

@Switch Blayde

Let me know if I screwed up.

It's not a screw up but you might want to know that most police forces converted to semi autos in the 70s and 80s. Hence if the story is set in the present, she wouldn't have been carrying a revolver.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Jim S

she wouldn't have been carrying a revolver.


Oops. I didn't mean revolver. Thanks.

Switch Blayde

@doctor_wing_nut

I might have said "he removed the same model" instead of compatible,


What are the odds he would have the exact same gun? I didn't want it to be too unbelievable. :)

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Let me know if I screwed up.


1. Time setting is important. Nearly all US police departments today issue semi-automatics, usually in 9mm Lugar, and usually the make is Glock.

The shift from revolvers to semi-automatics for standard issue duty weapons started in the 1960s.

This article has some useful info on that: http://www.lawenforcement.com/article/5735909-The-history-of-law-enforcement-weapons/

Fun Fact: The iconic pistol carried by the US army was the Colt M1911 in .45ACP (automatic Colt pistol). The 1911 in M1911 is the year it was designed. Semi-automatic pistols have been around longer than most people think. The first commercially successful semi-automatic pistol was designed in 1893.

2. Gun serial numbers are not that easy to file off successfully. Frequently, an acid dip will bring the remains of the number out as the stamp impact affects the whole thickness of the metal to some extent and it will respond slightly differently than the base metal.

ETA:
Also, to defeat attempts to file off serial numbers, many modern guns have the serial number in more than one place. Only one is visible when the gun is fully assembled.
end ETA:

3. A gun with a filed off serial number is seriously illegal. As in federal charges.

While it's almost impossible in the real world to hold cops accountable for violating the law, in your story, you need to think about Cherry's role in the story. Is she a good guy or a bad guy? As a cop, is she crooked or is she clean?

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

What are the odds he would have the exact same gun?


It depends. Some models are VERY popular.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

What are the odds he would have the exact same gun? I didn't want it to be too unbelievable. :)


Many of US law enforcement now use the Beretta M9 the same as the US Military, while others use Glocks in either .45 or 9mm or .40 with the .40 being the most common used by US Law Enforcement.

She could be carrying a 9 mm Glock G17 and used to using a .40 Glock Model G22 at work - those are very common in the US, and thus he's likely to have some of them on hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

https://us.glock.com/

https://us.glock.com/products/all

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

3. A gun with a filed off serial number is seriously illegal. As in federal charges.


Yeah, much easier to have a gun with a serial number that can't be traced to you. That has the advantage of you being able to drop it at the scene if concerned about being caught with it.

REP

@Switch Blayde

I assume different magazines fit different pistols so I have a compatibility consideration).


Not really. She would have bought pouches appropriate for her weapon's magazines.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


Yeah, much easier to have a gun with a serial number that can't be traced to you.


Yep, Guns are made of some of the hardest steel available today, and the serial numbers are stamped reasonably deep. If you work at it, you might be able to file down the number to where it isn't visible, but a pencil scrubbing on a piece of paper would probably be enough to recover it.

An acid bath will bring it back out even if you manage to file it down enough that a pencil scrubbing won't work.

It's easier to get one off the black market, or for a cop that's looking for an untraceable gun, steal one from the evidence locker.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
REP
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Magazines are designed to fit and function with a specific model of a semi automatic pistol. The exception to that is companies that standardize the design criteria for the magazine and pistol so magazines are interchangeable within their product line.

I've never heard of a 'universal' magazine.

Jim S
Updated:

Another note worth, well, noting :). The US Military and Federal Law Enforcement is starting to standardize on the .40 caliber to replace the 9mm. Which means 9mms are sure gonna be cheap in the future with all the used ones out there. And it's sure going to make the gun manufacturers' decade.

ETA: I wonder why the switch. Lets see --- how do you spell "campaign contribution" again? Nah, that can't be it.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

I wonder why the switch.


Although there isn't that much difference in the size etc., a lot of people feel the 9 mm is under powered for law enforcement work. A typical 9 x 19 mm pistol round with a 7.45 g bullet has 355 ft pounds while a .40 S&W with 7.45 g bullet has 500 foot pounds - that close to 50% higher impact. There are some special high energy 9 x 19 mm rounds, but not all guns can use them, and they're reported as being harder to control when fired - and they still come in below the common .40 S&W rounds.

Law enforcement love better stopping capability.

Replies:   Jim S  Dominions Son
Jim S

@Ernest Bywater

Law enforcement love better stopping capability.

Maybe I shouldn't be so cynical.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

Maybe I shouldn't be so cynical.


The majority of the county forces are too small to be of interest for the gun manufacturers to bribe, and the buying in the large federal agencies and big police departments are done by clerks who have to justify everything to their political bosses and the people on the line. So where one of the clerks might take a bribe, it's more likely along the lines of choosing company A to supply the chosen calibre weapon than company B. The calibre and type decisions will have been made before it gets to them.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


.40 S&W with 7.45 g bullet has 500 foot pounds - that close to 50% higher impact.


Law enforcement love better stopping capability.


More foot pounds isn't necessarily better.

Too much energy and you start seeing over penetration. That means the bullet isn't transferring all of it's energy to the target and you can actually loose stopping power vs a lower energy round.

Plus over penetration increases risks to bystanders, which law enforcement should see as a negative (but they don't)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Jim S
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son


More foot pounds isn't necessarily better.


I never said it was better, just a lot of the law enforcement people want the higher impact. The problem a lot of them want to address with the higher impact is the bad guys who wear body armour - which is a lot more common now. The high the impact the harder they hit the ground when hit, and the harder it is for them to recover from the hit, depsite not being wounded by the bullet.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

is the bad guys who wear body armour - which is a lot more common now.


It might be more common than it used to be, but it still isn't a tenth as common as the cops would like people to believe.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Jim S

@Dominions Son

More foot pounds isn't necessarily better.

A couple of points in response.

1. I think foot pounds of energy delivered vis-a-vis better control of the weapon. That was partly the reason for the transfer.

2. Penetration can be ameliorated by the type of cartridge used. Cop killer ammo designed to penetrate Kevlar would probably go through 10 houses (and a few of the bodies contained therein) before coming to rest. However, hollow core ammo imparts the vast majority of those foot pounds being delivered to what it hits. In other words, if the bullet exits, it leaves a big hole as its surface upon exit is around 4 times the diameter of the original slug. Even if it does pass through, collateral damage is minimized as velocity is severely degraded.

If you're not a CCW holder, this might be new. But one of the things emphasized in the required courses to obtain same is that you're 100% responsible for whatever leaves your weapon. And I do know that cops face the same standards.

In summary, more footpounds, greater control, appropriate ammo all translate into improvements over existing armature. My earlier post referencing campaign contributions was a sad attempt of humor, which obviously has fallen flatter than a .45 hollow core hitting a brick wall.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

it still isn't a tenth as common as the cops would like people to believe.


True, but the guys wearing it are more likely to be killing cops than the majority of those who don't wear armour.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

hollow core ammo imparts the vast majority of those foot pounds being delivered to what it hits.


Frangible rounds like the Glasser ones and the like actually impart more on the hit than the more common solid rounds, because little goes into penetration, it's almost all transferred into the hit. That's why the better self-defence people recommend people buy frangible rounds for their normal usage, and only get cheap solids for practice shooting.

Replies:   Jim S
Dominions Son

@Jim S

In other words, if the bullet exits, it leaves a big hole


If it exits at all, it hasn't transferred all it's energy to the target.

That means a round with lower initial energy could still have the same stopping power.

. And I do know that cops face the same standards.


No, they don't.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


That's why the better self-defence people recommend people buy frangible rounds for their normal usage, and only get cheap solids for practice shooting.


Full metal jacket (FMJ) ammo is normally considered range ammo. At least in my experience. Hollow core is self defense ammo at least as I understand it. I'm unfamiliar with Glasser ammo but if improves on the already outstanding performance of hollow cores, sign me up.

ETA: A quick look at the internet shows me how expensive Glasser is. About twice hollow core. Maaaaaaaaaaybe I'll say with hollow core.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

True, but the guys wearing it are more likely to be killing cops than the majority of those who don't wear armour.


The guys deliberately killing cops are extremely rare.

The US has over 800,000 law enforcement officers. Nationally in 2016 only 66 were killed by felonious (criminal) means.

The vast majority of cops who die on the job are killed in traffic accidents.

And relatively speaking, there isn't that many of them either.

In the US, one of the most violent of the OECD nations, law enforcement doesn't even make the top 10 list for most dangerous jobs. Law enforcement ranks 12th or 13th IIRC. Trash collection rates higher on the list than law enforcement.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
StarFleet Carl

There's an old saying that any caliber that starts with 4 is okay - thus, the tendency now to switch to .40.

That's probably okay for law enforcement, where they don't personally have to purchase their rounds. For those of us in the private sector - not so much. I can pick up, on average, 200 rounds of 9mm for $40. 200 rounds of .40 costs about $60. 200 rounds of .45 is going to cost about $80. (Note this is decent ammo, not the Tula steel stuff.)

Since I tend to purchase in bulk anyway - I keep about 1,000 round of 9mm for my Glock 17 Gen 4, 500 rounds of .380 for my Sig P238 (great little conceal gun), 4,000 rounds of 5.56 for my AR, and probably 5,000 rounds of .22LR for my squirrel rifle - you've got to pay attention to ammo costs.

Also, just in case you get to this point in the story - you can fire .223 through a 5.56 rifle. The reverse is NOT true - the round pressures are different, and if you try to fire 5.56 mm through a .223 rifle, you will probably destroy the rifle. May not happen immediately, but it will happen.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S
Updated:

@Dominions Son


If it exits at all, it hasn't transferred all it's energy to the target.


Yes it does as the exit velocity is way lower than the entrance velocity and that difference results, in part, in energy imparted.

No, they don't.


Where I'm at, they're responsible for anything leaving their weapon. However, they do receive much more training regarding being aware of what's behind their intended target.

Jim S

@StarFleet Carl

I'm assuming, given your ammo stores, that your consumption is high. If so, why not consider reloading?

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Jim S

If so, why not consider reloading?


It's actually not that consumption itself is high - I put about 100 rounds downrange each month of each caliber to keep sharp and refresh my stock. I just keep enough on hand for the zombie apocalypse or social unrest, whichever comes first.

And I'd consider reloading if I had ROOM. I'm in a small house, so between my woodworking equipment and other stuff, I just don't have space. (Or the time, honestly.)

Replies:   Joe Long
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Jim S


Yes it does as the exit velocity is way lower


No it does not, if the exit velocity is greater than zero the round still has some of it's initial energy, so the energy wasn't all transferred to the target.

I didn't say it wouldn't transfer any energy to the target, just that it hasn't transferred all of it's energy to the target.

ETA: If a round exits the target with just one foot pound of energy left, a round with one foot pound less initial energy would have exactly the same stopping power.

Dominions Son

@Jim S

Where I'm at, they're responsible for anything leaving their weapon.


Then clearly, you do not live in the US.

Replies:   Jim S
Switch Blayde

@REP

Not really. She would have bought pouches appropriate for her weapon's magazines.


I wanted the magazines she brought with her (in the pouches) to fit the untraceable pistol Steele gave her.

Replies:   Jim S  REP
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

Yeah, much easier to have a gun with a serial number that can't be traced to you.


The gun can't be traced. I added the serial number filing for effect. I guess I'll leave that out.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Dominions Son


you need to think about Cherry's role in the story. Is she a good guy or a bad guy? As a cop, is she crooked or is she clean?


Is the protagonist in "Death Wish" a good guy or a bad guy? When Jack Reacher kills the bad guy at the end of the first movie in cold blood, is he a good guy or a bad guy? My cop in my first novel hunts down and kills people. Is he a good guy or a bad guy?

In this novel, Steele is a Jack Reacher type guy. In the military, he assassinated people. Was he a good guy or a bad guy? In civilian life, he kills really bad people. But I see him as a good guy?

Cherry is a good cop who's always trying to arrest Steele for breaking the law. But she is the one in the scene with the molded breasts. She was abused by the bad guys and is joining forces with Steele. This is the first time they'll be going together to hunt down the bad guys. Exactly how she reacts will be interesting.

Replies:   Jim S  REP
Joe Long

@StarFleet Carl

between my woodworking equipment and other stuff, I just don't have space. (Or the time, honestly.)


My dad did his reloading on a work table in a cellar room. He installed shelves and attached vices and other gadgets to the table.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Dominions Son


The guys deliberately killing cops are extremely rare.


I didn't say they were deliberate cop killers. I said those with body armour are more likely to kill a cop than those without - there's a big difference in meaning. In the first they're going out of their way to kill cops, in the second (which is what I said) when in an armed confrontation it's more likely a bad guy in body armour will kill a cop than one without body armour. Way too many professional criminals can get body armour now. Hell, it's not legal for civilians to have body armour in this country, yet even some of the bike gangs have body armour for their people.

Jim S

@Dominions Son

Then clearly, you do not live in the US.

Yes I do.

Jim S

@Switch Blayde

I wanted the magazines she brought with her (in the pouches) to fit the untraceable pistol Steele gave her.

That might be a stretch unless they're the same caliber and same manufacturer.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Joe Long
Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

Glasser ammo but if improves on the already outstanding performance of hollow cores, sign me up.


I got the spelling wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet

Down here we tend to use cheap lead bullets for the range, and save the FMJ for hunting because they penetrate flesh better and cost more to buy.

Jim S

@Switch Blayde

My cop in my first novel hunts down and kills people. Is he a good guy or a bad guy?

Depends. Are they bad guys. It may be illegal, but just. That was part of the appeal of Death Wish

Dominions Son

@Jim S

It may be illegal, but just.


I just can't see cops who see themselves as judge, jury and executioner as good guys anymore.

Replies:   Jim S  Switch Blayde  Grant  Joe Long
Jim S

@Dominions Son

I just can't see cops who see themselves as judge, jury and executioner as good guys anymore.

The law exists to protect the innocent, not to punish the guilty. It's true. The 4th Amendment(to the extent that it's obeyed) exists to ensure that the innocent are protected. The entire legal system of the US is geared to the same principle. If justice happens to occur, so much the better. But that isn't the legal system's purpose.

So how is justice achieved? Interesting question. And one each individual must answer for himself/herself. And live with the consequences. Personally, I know how far I'd go.

Strange, but it comes down to an individual decision. And in this respect, cops are no different than you or me. Whether in performance of their duty or outside of it.

My opinion. FWIW

Switch Blayde

@Jim S

That might be a stretch unless they're the same caliber and same manufacturer.


He asked her if it was a 9mm. Then he asked to see her gun. Only then did he give her a compatible pistol. "Compatible" should cover it. That would mean the same manufacturer or even the same gun.

Replies:   Jim S  Ernest Bywater
Switch Blayde

@Jim S

Depends. Are they bad guys. It may be illegal, but just. That was part of the appeal of Death Wish


In the novel, they raped his little sister leaving her in a coma for years. The theme of the novel is revenge and the revenge is driving him to hunt them down and kill them. I see him as a good guy.

The other protagonist is being driven by revenge too. He starts out being the bad guy because he's blackmailing an innocent woman to have sex, but once you get to know him and his motives your opinion should change. He never physically hurts her and even feels guilty.

Some people would never see either of them as good guys. They probably wouldn't see Steele in my new novel a good guy either. So the genre is not for them, just like "Death Wish" isn't.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

I just can't see cops who see themselves as judge, jury and executioner as good guys anymore.


Then you wouldn't like it.

Dominions Son

@Jim S

The entire legal system of the US is geared to the same principle.


Go look up the Innocence Project some time. If the US legal system is geared to protect the innocent, it's doing a piss poor job of it.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@Switch Blayde

He asked her if it was a 9mm. Then he asked to see her gun. Only then did he give her a compatible pistol. "Compatible" should cover it. That would mean the same manufacturer or even the same gun.

You might want to add dialogue/verbage to emphasize the point. This is delicate, though. How much detail do you want to include? Too much turns off the average reader. Not enough leaves you with your original dialogue.

Glad I'm a reviewer/editor and not an author. :)

Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

The law exists to protect the innocent, not to punish the guilty.


Sorry, but you're wrong. The entire history of laws and law making have had three major aspects, in the following order of importance:

1. Protect the society, and its leaders;

2. Protect the community;

3. Punish the guilty.

There have been attempts to protect the innocent and to compensate the injured, but they come in well behind the above three aspects.

Jim S

@Dominions Son

Go look up the Innocence Project some time. If the US legal system is geared to protect the innocent, it's doing a piss poor job of it.

And your point is? Anything invented by man is imperfect. Looking at government throughout history proves the point. The point is that the US system is the first time in history where it was attempted. So at least the human race is making progress. I think....

Replies:   Dominions Son  REP
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

He asked her if it was a 9mm. Then he asked to see her gun. Only then did he give her a compatible pistol. "Compatible" should cover it. That would mean the same manufacturer or even the same gun.


I'd add in him saying something like," I've got one of those" and he hands her a gun of the same model.

BTW - it is possible to get the serial number off a gun so it can't be read by any means, but by then you've so damaged the metal of the gun at that spot it's likely to be unsafe to use. The number stamping actually affect the metal deep into the materiel.

Replies:   Joe Long
Jim S

@Ernest Bywater

There have been attempts to protect the innocent and to compensate the injured, but they come in well behind the above three aspects.


I disagree, Ernest. Examine in detail US jurisprudence and you will find an overwhelming emphasis on protecting the rights of the innocent. I am not as familiar with other countries jurisprudence as I am with the US but I challenge you to show me one that assumes innocence to the degree that the US does. I'm not saying that it's better. I'm just saying that it is.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Jim S

And your point is?


Our legal system is far worse than simply imperfect, it's become hopelessly corrupt.

The point is that the US system is the first time in history where it was attempted.


Epic Fail!

Replies:   Jim S
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

he entire history of laws and law making have had three major aspects, in the following order of importance:

1. Protect the society, and its leaders;

2. Protect the community;

3. Punish the guilty.


You have the list/order wrong.

1. Protect the society, and its leaders;

2. Punish someone, anyone (as long as it's not someone covered by #1);

3. Protect the community;

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@Dominions Son

Epic Fail!

You're underestimating the importance of the attempt.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Jim S

You're underestimating the importance of the attempt.


Recognizing the importance of the attempt does nothing to fix the broken system we have in practice.

It will never be fixed until we are willing as a nation to admit that the attempt was a failure.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@Dominions Son

You have the list/order wrong.

I have to agree. The proof is in where the harshest sentences are imposed by the courts. Query: what was Bernie Madoff's sentence. Remember, all he did was steal. He got 150 years. What mattered is who he stole from.

Now find your typical murder of a black in any inner city.

I rest my case.

Jim S

@Dominions Son

Recognizing the importance of the attempt does nothing to fix the broken system we have in practice.

It will never be fixed until we are willing as a nation to admit that the attempt was a failure.


I never addressed improvements on what we have. Of course it's imperfect. Of course it can be improved. It's our duty to do so.

But my comment was directed at your lack of appreciation at the attempt to address the rights of the innocent. Realize that that had never been attempted. And that is my point. Human history has been improved by the US and what the Founding Father cobbled together. I think that most US citizens don't fully realize that. Nor world citizens for that matter.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Grant
Dominions Son

@Jim S

I never addressed improvements on what we have. Of course it's imperfect.


Again, you fail to understand. Calling the system imperfect is an epic understatement.

The system as it exists today in practice (not what the founders imagined) is an abject, abysmal, unmitigated failure at protecting the rights of the innocent.

The system is so badly broken and corrupted that the it is likely necessary to start over from scratch to even come close to fixing it.

Replies:   Jim S
Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

Jim,

There is some criminal law where they attempt to assume innocence, however, the overall body of law and governing regulations are against that. More so in the USA than any where else they have attempted to introduce the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it hasn't happened. Also, more than anywhere else the USA has a legal system where the level of expenditure on the lawyers will seriously affect the outcome of the case.

Not even in the USA does the system of laws try to impose any justice on the situation.

Grant

@Dominions Son

I just can't see cops who see themselves as judge, jury and executioner as good guys anymore.

Excellent example- the Philippines.
No need for a trial; if the cops consider you a drug user or dealer it is perfectly OK for them to kill you if you resist in any way.
Interestingly a large number of minor users & "dealers" have been killed since Duterte came to power; but as for major dealers, importers etc? Well, they can afford to pay the bribes. So no shooting them.
Officially over 3,800 have been killed to date. Unofficially the numbers vary from double to 4 times that.

Grant

@Jim S

But my comment was directed at your lack of appreciation at the attempt to address the rights of the innocent. Realize that that had never been attempted.

Magna Carta, Habeas corpus come to mind.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@Grant

Magna Carta, Habeas corpus come to mind.


Agreed. But do either of those compare to the depth of the US's attempt? Those were built upon by the Founding Fathers, and maybe the FF wouldn't have come up with what they did in the absence of those two. But, still, comparatively. Is there a doubt?

Jim S
Updated:

@Dominions Son


The system is so badly broken and corrupted that the it is likely necessary to start over from scratch to even come close to fixing it.


Is it? Really? Methinks you're suggesting that we throw out the baby with the bathwater. I differ.

And you keep missing my point. That the rights of the innocent had not been addressed adequately ever in history. Grant brought up the Magna Carta and habeus corpus. Neither approached what the Constitution and US jurisprudence introduced to history. Look at what existed in the world when the Constitution was drafted. No comparison. Just no favorable comparison.

Dominions Son

@Jim S

That the rights of the innocent had not been addressed adequately ever in history.


I don't deny that, but so what? They are largely ignored now.

Dominions Son

@Jim S

Methinks you're suggesting that we throw out the baby with the bathwater.


I'm suggesting that the baby has been dead for at least 50 years.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@Dominions Son

I'm suggesting that the baby has been dead for at least 50 years.

To respond to both your posts with questions.

How many innocent prisoners are in jail?

How many guilty are free?

I'd opine that a larger percentage of guilty are free than innocents in jail. That's the price of our system.

Next question. What's your suggestion for improvement? No pie-in-the-sky peace, love and understanding (or some other unrealistic, idealistic) response. I want real, concrete suggestions that have a potential to succeed.

I'll open up and say I don't have a clue here for a response to the previous question. But to jettison what is still a viable solution compared to what exists in Iran, Afghanistan, China, Venezuela, Cuba or some other 3rd world anal orifice just isn't acceptable. Or show me another system that's superior in protecting the rights of the innocent. Not even Canada, Great Britian or Australia, close cousins though they are, can lay claim.

I'm not naive enough to think we're God's gift to the work in this regard either. It's obvious that the system could be better. It's also obvious that the system currently in place doesn't live up to the ideals of 1776. So what? Show me something that does.

Most of your posts seem centered on the fact that we aren't perfect in the implementation of the ideal. Like any system ever is. Methinks you have impossible standards to meet.

Enough said. If you want to consider extending this discussion, may I suggest finding some way to take it to email rather than further hijacking this topic.

Replies:   Joe Long
Joe Long

@Jim S

That might be a stretch unless they're the same caliber and same manufacturer.


If she has a common weapon and Steele has a large collection he should be able to match it.

Joe Long

@Dominions Son

I just can't see cops who see themselves as judge, jury and executioner as good guys anymore.


I've been working on a dystopian concept for several months, but unfortunately events on the ground are outpacing my imagination.

Picture a situation of growing civil unrest in the United States. I'm planning on using my knowledge of civil breakdowns in many countries over the past century as a guide. Armed gangs, both right and left, vandalize, assault and murder. The police and government are unable or unwilling to stop the violence. Regular folks, who just want a return to a normal life, are caught in the middle. One day your own kid is killed.

If you and your friends know who is in the gangs and know where they are, but the police aren't doing anything about it, does your posse take care of the situation themselves? Is it right or wrong? I want to ask the questions without providing clear answers. If cops are told to stand down while people die around them, will they join in with the vigilantes to restore order? Of course they will be questioning themselves along the way.

Joe Long

@Jim S

So how is justice achieved? Interesting question. And one each individual must answer for himself/herself. And live with the consequences. Personally, I know how far I'd go.

Strange, but it comes down to an individual decision. And in this respect, cops are no different than you or me. Whether in performance of their duty or outside of it.


I hadn't read down when I commented, but this is what I'm talking about. Interesting point about protecting the innocent. I knew that, but not quite so clearly. I'll steal that idea (name a character after you)

Joe Long

@Ernest Bywater

Sorry, but you're wrong. The entire history of laws and law making have had three major aspects, in the following order of importance:


Also good for story telling that reasonable people can disagree on so fundamental a question.

The leaders can be crafting the law to protect themselves while at the same time citizens can be violating the law to protect the community and punish the guilty.

Replies:   robberhands
Joe Long

@Ernest Bywater

Only then did he give her a compatible pistol.


'He gave her a compatible pistol' is telling. "Here, I've got one of those" is showing, which is better.

Joe Long

@Jim S

may I suggest finding some way to take it to email rather than further hijacking this topic.


I don't consider it a hijack as it goes to the central conflict of the story at hand.

StarFleet Carl

@Joe Long

My dad did his reloading on a work table in a cellar room. He installed shelves and attached vices and other gadgets to the table.


My old house up north I could have done that. 2700 square feet 2 story, full basement, 2 car attached, 5 car detached. House here is 1200 square, no basement, with a 1 car garage and I've built a 12 x 16 shed for additional storage.

robberhands
Updated:

@Joe Long

The leaders can be crafting the law to protect themselves while at the same time citizens can be violating the law to protect the community and punish the guilty.

Our societies are based on compromises. One of these compromises is to abstain from executing your personal view of justice. Everyone who refuse to accept this compromise moves outside of society borders, as it's one of its most basic rules. The powerful and wealthy, as well as the criminals and vigilantes. There is no glory to achieve and personal justice is a highly doubtful goal.

Replies:   Joe Long
REP

@Switch Blayde

That is what I thought. I was just noting your idea didn't match reality. There is more to untraceable than a serial number. If the weapon had been used in a crime, the grooves in a round could be linked to the crime. The perp of that crime might finger Steele as the buyer of the weapon. Highly unlikely, but ...

Replies:   Switch Blayde
REP

@Switch Blayde

is he a good guy or a bad guy?


That is a morality question. The answer is dependent on how the guy's actions are defined - good and bad.

For example: If a civilian fires a gun at an aggressive person in a situation that is not self defense and kills that person, the death is unacceptable and we define the guy as a bad guy. When a soldier fires a gun at another soldier and kills that soldier even though that soldier was not pointing or firing their weapon at the first soldier, then that killing is deemed to be acceptable and we define the soldier as a good guy.

It is all in how you define what is proper behavior in a given situation.

Replies:   Joe Long  Switch Blayde
Joe Long

@robberhands

Our societies are based on compromises. One of these compromises is to abstain from executing your personal view of justice. Everyone who refuse to accept this compromise moves outside of society borders, as it's one of its most basic rules. The powerful and wealthy, as well as the criminals and vigilantes. There is no glory to achieve and personal justice is a highly doubtful goal.


I agree.

The premise is what happens when society becomes so bad that people are tempted to do it themselves. The characters have an opportunity to be quite internally conflicted.

Joe Long

@REP

When a soldier fires a gun at another soldier and kills that soldier even though that soldier was not pointing or firing their weapon at the first soldier, then that killing is deemed to be acceptable and we define the soldier as a good guy.


Depends on the rules of engagement. Currently US troops are only allowed to return fire even if they see an armed combatant. They can end up in front of a JAG for violating that.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Jim S

The point is that the US system is the first time in history where it was attempted


If I understand what you are referring to, then I would say the Magna Carta back in 1215 was the first attempt; but there may have been earlier attempts.

Replies:   robberhands
REP
Updated:

@Joe Long


even if they see an armed combatant


I would agree if you change that to armed person.

The situation necessitating the ROE is the adversary cannot be identified by their clothing. In that part of the world, uninvolved civilians have weapons to defend themselves and their families. Thus the ROE is intended to stop soldiers from assuming armed means the other person is a combatant.

robberhands

@REP

If I understand what you are referring to, then I would say the Magna Carta back in 1215 was the first attempt; but there may have been earlier attempts.

A hundred thousand years ago some cavemen-chief might have had the same noble plans ruling his tribe. Words on paper don't mean a lot when at the same time half the country's law abiding citizens are forcing slaves to work their fields.

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@Joe Long

'He gave her a compatible pistol' is telling. "Here, I've got one of those" is showing, which is better.

I suggest you be careful about making comments like that here.
1. You're preaching to the choir when you tell EB that, and he's been in the choir much longer than you.
2. Make sure your 9 mm and all other weapons are fully loaded before saying anything like that to those here who are not in the choir.

Replies:   robberhands
REP

@robberhands

Words on paper don't mean a lot when at the same time half the country's law abiding citizens are forcing slaves to work their fields.


What slaves?

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

I suggest you be careful about making comments like that here.

A noble try but I fear you're too late.

robberhands

@REP

What slaves?

I'm no historian of American history but weren't from the year 1796 until the end of the civil war in 1865 still quiet a few slaves working in the South of the U.S.?

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@robberhands


from the year 1796


Slavery in the US actually started in the early 1600's, if I recall correctly.

ETA: At the time, the region was referred to as British North America, not the United States.

But what does that have to do with the Magna Carta?

I thought you might be referring to the serfs who labored in fields during the Middle Ages in Europe. Many people think of the serf as slaves, but they actually had legally enforceable rights. Their feudal lords typically respected those rights, but those rights did not give them much protection in many instances.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

But what does that have to do with the Magna Carta?

I thought you might be referring to the serfs who labored in fields during the Middle Ages in Europe.

It has nothing to do with the Magna Carta. Like you I was referring to: 'The point is that the US system is the first time in history where it was attempted' (i.e. The Bill of Rights from 1776).

REP

@robberhands

(i.e. The Bill of Rights from 1776).


The Magna Carta is England's equivalent and it was signed by King John on June 15, 1215.

Replies:   robberhands
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

Sorry, but you're wrong. The entire history of laws and law making have had three major aspects, in the following order of importance:

1. Protect the society, and its leaders;

2. Protect the community;

3. Punish the guilty.


And then there were the Jim Crow laws which were enacted to punish the innocent. I guess the Nazi laws against Jews did the same.

robberhands

@REP

he Magna Carta is England's equivalent and it was signed by King John on June 15, 1215.

And the Magna Carta had as much importance to the reality of the world in 1215 as the Bill of Rights in 1776, or the dreams of a caveman a hundred thousand years before.

Replies:   REP  Geek of Ages
Switch Blayde

@REP

That is what I thought. I was just noting your idea didn't match reality. There is more to untraceable than a serial number. If the weapon had been used in a crime,


I don't spell it out, but Steele has "contacts" from his years working for the government as an assassin and other things. So when he asks Cherry if her gun can be traced back to her and she says yes, he gives her one that the reader has to assume is untraceable, that he has a cache of weapons from sources normal people don't. If the reader doesn't get that... *shrugs* ...it's the fear an author has when they show rather than tell.

Replies:   Joe Long
Ross at Play

@robberhands

The Bill of Rights from 1776

The Bill of Rights was not in the original US Constitution. It is the collective name for a swag of Amendments to the Constitution ratified in 1791.
Meanwhile, the French made a similar declaration in 1789 and abolished slavery in their colonies in 1794.

The American experiment was by no means original. I would say the Founding Fathers were students of history and cobbled together a selection of ideas that had been attempted with various levels of success before.

I expect anyone from the Indian subcontinent would laugh at some suggestions made here and point to Ashoka's attempt in the third century BC!

Replies:   Tw0Cr0ws
REP

@robberhands

And the Magna Carta had as much importance to the reality of the world in 1215 as the Bill of Rights in 1776


You really need to research how those documents affect the real world following their being signed. Granted nothing changed at the moment the documents were signed.

Switch Blayde

@REP

is he a good guy or a bad guy?

That is a morality question. The answer is dependent on how the guy's actions are defined - good and bad.


There's character development in the beginning of the story about Steele loving Western novels. He liked the clarity of being able to identify the good guy from the bad guy by the color of their hat (white = good, black = bad). He was conflicted about what he did as a soldier where it was gray.

Geek of Ages

@robberhands

the Bill of Rights in 1776


You're off by about two decades on that.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Geek of Ages

You're off by about two decades on that.

Sorry, I wasn't present at the time and simply cited what I read about it.

Replies:   Geek of Ages  REP
Geek of Ages

@robberhands

Then I wouldn't trust what you read about it at all if it gets such fundamentally basic history as "when was the Bill of Rights ratified" so grossly wrong.

Replies:   robberhands
REP

@robberhands

Sorry, I wasn't present at the time and simply cited what I read about it.


June 8, 1789 - James Madison introduced nine amendments to the constitution in the House of Representatives; during consideration, other amendments were proposed by other members of the House of Representatives. Seven of Madison's proposed amendments were among the ten ratified by the states.

September 25, 1789 - Congress approved twelve articles of amendment to the Constitution and submitted them to the states for ratification. They were numbered as Articles 1-12.

December 15, 1791 - Articles Three through Twelve were ratified by the states and became Amendments One through Ten of the Constitution.

It is interesting to note that Article Two became part of the Constitution on May 5, 1992, as the Twenty-seventh Amendment and Article One is technically still pending before the states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Switch Blayde

@Joe Long

'He gave her a compatible pistol' is telling. "Here, I've got one of those" is showing, which is better.


Or maybe he had special weapons that you and I can't buy that would fit her magazines. I left it vague on purpose.

But I did change "Behind it were all kinds of weapons hanging on the wall" to:

On the wall behind it were pistols, silencers, knives, submachine guns, a sniper rifle, and even hand grenades.


Much earlier, Steele found a similar setup in the bad guys' house and I like the analogy. This is from an earlier scene:

He had seen suits of armor before, but never one wearing a sword. He wrapped his hand around the handle, glanced over his shoulder, and began to slide it out of the sheath. His fingers sprang open and he jumped back when a motor hummed. The block of wood the armor stood on moved. Not only did the block move, but a hidden door in the wall was attached to it and also swung open to reveal a cache of weapons. AK-47s, pistols, small submachine guns, sawed off shotguns, knives. Not wanting to disturb anything, Steele left it all untouched, except one item—a glove. As soon as he held it in his hands he knew what it was. A glove gun used by KGB spies. Steele had never seen one, but had learned about them in his training. The gun was attached to the glove and when the wearer jammed the plunger into the victim, it discharged the bullet. A good weapon when the agent could get close. The Russian gang had an impressive arsenal.


So both Steele and the bad guys had a hidden arsenal of a cache of illegal weapons. Is one really good and one bad? Their motives (morality) differentiates them.

Replies:   Ross at Play  Joe Long
Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

(i.e. The Bill of Rights from 1776).


The USA needed the Bill of Rights to codify within their legal structure the various rights that had been codified in the British legal structure they just threw out. Where the Brits had them in a number of different laws the USA put them together in one document.

robberhands

@Geek of Ages

As Ross already pointed out, the Bill of Rights became part of the Constitution ratified in 1791. But the ratification date itself never was in question.

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

Their motives (morality) differentiates them.

I'm happy enough to see that in fiction; in real life I'll take imperfect laws enforced imperfectly any day.

Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

I don't spell it out, but Steele has "contacts" from his years working for the government...If the reader doesn't get that... *shrugs* ...it's the fear an author has when they show rather than tell.


Just lay out the facts. Let the readers know by then about his past work and no one should bat an eye if he opens up his weapons closet and says "I have one for you."

Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

So both Steele and the bad guys had a hidden arsenal of a cache of illegal weapons. Is one really good and one bad? Their motives (morality) differentiates them.


I like it.

REP
Updated:

@robberhands


part of the Constitution ratified in 1791. But the ratification date itself never was in question.


The date should have been in question for the Constitution became official on June 21st, 1788.

Ratification of the Constitution only required 9 of the 12 states. The ninth state to ratify the Constitution was New Hampshire on June 21st, 1788. The last of the initial 12 states to join the United States was Rhode Island on May 29th, 1790.

http://constitution.laws.com/ratification-of-the-constitution

ETA: Ross doesn't just make up something like a date, so I went back and read his post. I think he meant the ten amendments were ratified in 1791.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
Switch Blayde
Updated:

Another question.

I want the woman to load a round into the chamber. I wrote:


Cherry unholstered the semi-automatic pistol Steele had given her. Pointing the muzzle up, she pulled the slide back and released it, loading a round into the chamber. "Let's go."


I found out that's called "rack the slide" so I could write: "She racked the slide, loading a round into the chamber."

But if I were reading the story, I wouldn't have known what "racked the slide" meant. Am I better off with the way I wrote it?

And I added the "loading a round into the chamber" for others ignorant about semi-automatic pistols. Is it redundant to have that part?

helmut_meukel

@REP

Ratification of the Constitution only required 9 of the 12 states. The ninth state to ratify the Constitution was New Hampshire on June 21st, 1788. The last of the initial 12 states to join the United States was Rhode Island on May 29th, 1790.

http://constitution.laws.com/ratification-of-the-constitution


IMHO the quoted text is misleading, it says 12 states, but then names Rhode Island as the last to join as thirteenth state.
IIRC from the 13 initial states Rhode Island rejected the Constitution outright, then finally joined the other 12 states.

HM.

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

But if I were reading the story, I wouldn't have known what "racked the slide" meant. Am I better off with the way I wrote it?


Depends on the kind of audience you are expecting to draw. Fans of police dramas will most likely be familiar with the expression already.

I don't know how early in her career you are starting the story.

One way to handle that if you expect a lot of readers not familiar with the expression would be to early in the story, have another character tell her to "rack the slide" then use the description "She pulled the slide back and released it" to introduce readers to the expression, then you can use the expression later in the story in the narrative having introduced it to the readers.

A couple of possible scene setups for this are:

1. Cops have to be certified in proficiency with their sidearms. They have to be periodically re-certified. How often varies from department to department. Early in the story, add a scene with her at the range and have the instructor handling her re-certification use the phrase.

2. Have her partner use it while they are prepping for the day at the precinct.

And I added the "to load a round into the chamber" for others ignorant about semi-automatic pistols. Is it redundant to have that part?


Maybe, maybe not. The actions involved in racking the slide would also be used when unloading the weapon if there was a live round in the chamber.

You would eject the magazine, then pull back and release the slide. Of course in this case, if there is no magazine, or an empty magazine in the weapon, the slide will lock open, rather than closing.

Of the top of my head, I don't know if the "rack the slide" expression applies to this case.

Another possibility for a cop, is if they take a weapon off a suspect, they might rack the slide just to see if there was a round in the chamber or not.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

And I added the "loading a round into the chamber" for others ignorant about semi-automatic pistols. Is it redundant to have that part?


I cannot find that meaning in dictionaries, so I think you definitely need an explanation.
It could be just, '... she racked the slide to load a round', or perhaps 'the first round'.

helmut_meukel

@Switch Blayde

I want the woman to load a round into the chamber. I wrote:

Cherry unholstered the semi-automatic pistol Steele had given her. Pointing the muzzle up, she pulled the slide back and released it, loading a round into the chamber. "Let's go."


In this situation why not then remove the magazine and load a new round into it so she still has a full magazine?

HM.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
StarFleet Carl

@Switch Blayde

Another question.


Another answer.

She'd probably do at least one or two empty battery actions just to confirm the action of the slide. All pistols are not made the same, and if your hand doesn't fit the grip right, having the slide come forward and catch the web between thumb and index finger is ... um ... bad. Here's a simple rewrite that let's her check that, as well as check the trigger pull.

Cherry unholstered the pistol Steele had given her. Making sure it wasn't pointed at him, she pulled the slide back to lock and then hit the release. She checked the trigger pull, knowing that a single dry fire wouldn't harm anything. Liking what she felt, she then loaded a magazine and racked the slide again. "Let's go.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@StarFleet Carl

Cherry unholstered the pistol Steele had given her. Making sure it wasn't pointed at him, she pulled the slide back to lock and then hit the release. She checked the trigger pull, knowing that a single dry fire wouldn't harm anything. Liking what she felt, she then loaded a magazine and racked the slide again. "Let's go.

It sounds you took a look inside Cherry's mind. I guess Switch will be jealous.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

It sounds you took a look inside Cherry's mind. I guess Switch will be jealous.

I guess Switch will be okay so long as he doesn't attempt to look inside that blouse.

doctor_wing_nut

@Switch Blayde

I want the woman to load a round into the chamber. I wrote:

Cherry unholstered the semi-automatic pistol Steele had given her. Pointing the muzzle up, she pulled the slide back and released it, loading a round into the chamber. "Let's go."


If she's experienced with handguns, the FIRST thing she would have done, BEFORE holstering any weapon, would have been to at the very least, do a 'press check' to see if there was a round in the chamber. A 'press check' is a partial rack of the slide, enough to visibly confirm the presence of a round in firing position. Some guns have a loaded chamber indicator that's visible from the exterior, some have a space where you can see a portion of the chambered round, many have neither. She would have, most likely, dropped the mag as well, to visually confirm her round count, and check any safety that might be present and engaged - again, all this would be done in seconds, as soon as she came into possession of the weapon, well before she would holster a fresh gun. Most have a habit of doing this even to their own guns, even knowing their status, because it's just ingrained that deeply. Trust, but verify.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@helmut_meukel


In this situation why not then remove the magazine and load a new round into it so she still has a full magazine?


Because they're in Steele's car ready to go into the bad guys' place. He is giving her one last chance to back out since they aren't going in there to arrest anyone.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@robberhands


She checked the trigger pull, knowing that a single dry fire wouldn't harm anything. Liking what she felt, she then loaded a magazine and racked the slide again. "Let's go.

It sounds you took a look inside Cherry's mind.


Yeah, I thought that was head-hopping.

Replies:   Joe Long
Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

Yeah, I thought that was head-hopping.


Cherry could nod before saying, "Let's go" which would indicate she found all to be well, but it would likely exclude the 'single dry fire' comment.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@doctor_wing_nut

If she's experienced with handguns, the FIRST thing she would have done, BEFORE holstering any weapon, would have been to at the very least, do a 'press check' to see if there was a round in the chamber


When Steele gave her the gun in his house, this is what happened:

Cherry took the offered pistol and ejected the magazine to check that it was full before snapping it back in.

"Always keep them loaded?" she asked.

"Never know when I'll need it. No round in the chamber, though."


Based on what you're saying, she would have ejected the magazine, checked the chamber, and then put the magazine back in. She didn't check the chamber, but Steele told her it was empty. I'm going to keep it that way. My audience isn't gun experts, but those who are, I don't want glaring mistakes.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Joe Long


Cherry could nod before saying, "Let's go" which would indicate she found all to be well


I wanted it to have more impact than that. This is what leads up to it:


"I'm only going to say this once," he said. "We're not here to arrest them."

"I know that."

"Do you really know that? Once it starts, there's no stopping. Both our lives depend on what you do."

"I'm not here as a cop."

"But what about afterwards? Will you be able to handle it?"

"What do you mean?"

"Sometimes right and wrong are black and white. That's how you live your life. But sometimes it doesn't work that way. Sometimes you have to break the law to do what's right. I can sleep at night after doing that. Can you?"

Cherry unholstered the semi-automatic pistol Steele had given her. Pointing the muzzle up, she pulled the slide back and released it, loading a round into the chamber. "Let's go."

Replies:   Joe Long
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

She didn't check the chamber, but Steele told her it was empty. I'm going to keep it that way. My audience isn't gun experts, but those who are, I don't want glaring mistakes.

There is a glaring mistake, according to what doctor_wing_nut said above.
Nobody who was very familiar with guns would accept anyone else's word on whether a gun they were being given was loaded.
They would go into autopilot as soon as they receive it and check for themselves before saying anything.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

I wanted it to have more impact than that. This is what leads up to it:


Looks good. Cherry seems very business like.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

There is a glaring mistake, according to what doctor_wing_nut said above.


Okay, fixed it.

Cherry took the offered pistol and ejected the magazine. "Always keep them loaded?"

"Never know when I'll need it. No round in the chamber, though."

Cherry racked the slide, looking inside the empty chamber, before snapping the magazine back in. Steele smiled as he laid her personal pistol on the desk.

"Ready?" he asked.

Switch Blayde

@Joe Long

Looks good. Cherry seems very business like.


She and Steele have an interesting relationship. It's changing at the moment. Up until now, she followed the law to the letter. Since Steele didn't, they were at odds, but her captain is an old military buddy of Steele's so he gets away with things that drive her nuts.

To be honest, I'm not sure how she's going to handle what they're about to do.

Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

Okay, fixed it.

Okay, but don't trust me.
I've only ever fired one shot in my life. The darn things scare the bejesus out of me.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Joe Long
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I've only ever fired one shot in my life. The darn things scare the bejesus out of me.


I fired an M-16 on the driving range at basic training and an M-14 in a reserve summer camp (man did that have a kick). Never fired a handgun. I was sick when my group fired the M-60 machine gun but I did throw a grenade. That was scary, especially since we were next to a statue of a drill sergeant who died jumping on a live grenade a recruit had dropped.

robberhands

@Switch Blayde

My audience isn't gun experts, but those who are, I don't want glaring mistakes.

That's why the characters in my stories are only allowed to play with blades and blunt trauma weapons.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking
Updated:

@robberhands

But you miss out on all the copulatory metaphors about Steele putting his pistol in Cherry's holster ;)

AJ

Jim S
Updated:

Switch Blayde

I'll mention a couple of things from the point of view of one very familiar with handguns and proper handling of same:

-- You never assume the a gun being handed to you is safe; you always assume it's loaded. Hence, proper procedure when anyone passed a semi auto to you is remove the magazine and check the chamber. You don't take anyone's word that there isn't a round in the chamber. If properly instructed, this is pounded into you repeatedly.

-- If your audience contains nothing but handgun virgins, you can say anything you want and it won't make any difference.

-- If your audience contains a mix and you want your character to appear knowledgeable, one "racks the slide, jacking a round into the chamber". At least in my area of the country.

-- Knowledgeable people can tell if a magazine contains rounds solely by weight. Trust me. 10-12 rounds of 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP is heavy, easily discernible if the weapon is in your hand. However, it's almost impossible to tell if one is in the chamber unless you look.

-- Some semis have an indicator showing if a round is chambered or not. Mine don't. Hence, your knowledgeable character would look. You don't need to fully rack the slide to look; an inch or two generally suffices.

Hope this helps.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
doctor_wing_nut

@Switch Blayde

Okay, fixed it.


That works well enough. Again, don't want to nit-pick the scene to death, I think most folks will be good with that.

For the purists, what would typically happen goes something like this:

The person offering the weapon will drop the mag, rack the slide open to ensure and display an empty chamber, and the weapon would lock open (if there WAS a round in the chamber, it would be ejected upon doing this). Most all semi-auto pistols will lock open on an empty or missing mag and chamber. Then, they would pass all the components to the other party (this is called condition 4), who would now KNOW the status for a certainty, and THEY would decide if they wanted to carry it with a round chambered (condition 0,1, or 2) or, as you describe, no round chambered (condition 3).

Probably TMI, but at least now you know, so when some nitwit sends you a snarky comment you can impress the snot out of 'em with your leet skillz.

http://concealednation.org/2015/08/firearm-condition-readiness-condition-0-condition-1-condition-2-condition-3-condition-4-what-do-they-all-mean/

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

But you miss out on all the copulatory metaphors about Steele putting his pistol in Cherry's holster ;)

Bah, I've swords sheathing scabbards and daggers piercing soft flesh. Who needs pistols and holsters?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Who needs pistols and holsters?


Point. Especially only 9mm ;)

AJ

Switch Blayde

@Jim S

You don't take anyone's word that there isn't a round in the chamber.


In the revised version, that's why Cherry checked the chamber even though Steele said it was empty. And why Steele smiled. I assumed the reader would understand that smile to mean he was "proud" of her for doing it right.

Yes, it helps a lot. Thanks.

REP

@helmut_meukel

IMHO the quoted text is misleading,

You are correct. I missed that and it is misleading. I checked Wikipedia and it has a more detailed timeline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_drafting_and_ratification_of_the_United_States_Constitution

Even though the original article was wrong about 12 colonies, obviously a proofreading oversight of the author's error (maybe they need an SOL editor), the dates were correct.

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

But you miss out on all the copulatory metaphors about Steele putting his pistol in Cherry's holster ;)


But you can have copulatory metaphors about Steele sheathing his sword in her scabbard instead. :)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

I was thinking more along the lines of a Steele rod piercing a Cherry ;)

(I assume an author of SB's experience chose the names for some such reason)

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Joe Long

@Ross at Play

I've only ever fired one shot in my life. The darn things scare the bejesus out of me.


Haven't fired a rifle since I was about 21. Started practicing at at 6, out in the woods hunting at 12.

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

(I assume an author of SB's experience chose the names for some such reason)


As I said, the relationship between Cherry and Steele is contentious. He frustrates her because she's so black and white about the law and he teases her. Her name plays into the teasing (and has some humor when Steele finds out what Cherry's sisters' names are).

So there was a reason for choosing "Cherry." As to "Steele," I wanted a strong name for the character.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Switch Blayde

a strong name for the character.

Jack Armstrong

Replies:   Joe Long
Joe Long

@richardshagrin

Jack Armstrong


The Throwin' Samoan

curious2c

Most semi-autos are single action which means one has to manually operate the slide to put a round in the chamber or, if the weapon already has a live round chambered, cocking the weapon by thumbing the hammer back into firing position. There are exceptions such as the older Browning Hi-Power 9MMs. These are double action trigger mechanisms which means that pull the trigger the hammer will actuate with it so if a live round is chambered in the weapon, it will fire just by pulling the trigger. There are several out there that are double action semi-autos like the Ruger P90DC and the new Ruger American, which come in several calibers from .45, 9MM, and even the .380 if I remember correctly. So, to answer the original question, if the hand gun is a SINGLE ACTION, it requires manually operating the hammer or slide into firing position. If the hand gun is DOUBLE ACTION, one can shoot just be pulling the trigger. This is true for revolvers as well as semi-autos. One needs to know which gun is being described fits the handle so-to-speak.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  REP
Switch Blayde

@curious2c

Most semi-autos are single action which means one has to manually operate the slide to put a round in the chamber or, if the weapon already has a live round chambered, cocking the weapon by thumbing the hammer back into firing position.


Now I'm confused. I thought "semi-automatic" meant that once a round is in the chamber all you have to do is pull the trigger. The round in the chamber fires and another is loaded into the chamber for the next pull of the trigger. I didn't know there was a hammer on a semi-auto pistol like on a revolver.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Now I'm confused. I thought "semi-automatic" meant that once a round is in the chamber all you have to do is pull the trigger.


Technically, all modern firearms (even full auto) have a hammer, it's what drives the firing pin forward into the primer on the cartridge in the chamber.

Most semi-auto's (pistol or long guns) don't have exposed visible hammers, but a few do.

Generally racking the slide on a semi-auto pistol will automatically cock the hammer.

However, on any semi-auto with an exposed hammer, it is possible to hold the hammer with your thumb, pull the trigger, and then gently set the hammer down on a chambered round so that it doesn't fire.

This is sometimes done as a secondary safety for carrying with a round in the chamber, as thumbing the hammer to re-cock it is faster than racking the slide.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Technically, all modern firearms (even full auto) have a hammer, it's what drives the firing pin forward into the primer on the cartridge in the chamber.


But if there's a round in the chamber, you don't have to cock the hammer. All you have to do is pull the trigger. I thought that's what was meant by "semi-automatic." And, as you said, most don't even have a visible hammer to cock.

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@curious2c

The terms Single and Double action are typically used in regard to revolvers. Some people apply the same terms to semi-automatics.

For revolvers, the terms refer to the action(s) performed by pulling the trigger. Single Action refers to revolvers were the hammer must be manually cocked before squeezing the trigger. The hammer is held in the cocked position by the sear. Squeezing the trigger releases the sear (1 action) and the hammer's forward movement discharges the weapon. Double Action refers to revolvers were squeezing the trigger performs 2 actions: cocking and firing the weapon.

For semi-automatics, some people use the same terms, but the actions performed by the user are different and the actions are determined by whether the weapon has an exposed hammer and whether its slide locks to the rear when the last round is fired. The following is based on there being no cartridge in the chamber, the slide is in the forward position, and the magazine has not been inserted. To fire the weapon:

`1. The first thing the user must do is insert the magazine. (Note: for some weapons, firing the last round in the weapon causes the slide to lock in the rear position with the hammer cocked, and inserting the magazine releases the slide causing a round to be chambered. The weapon is ready to be fired by squeezing the trigger.)

2. The user must chamber a round by pulling the slide to the rear and releasing it. This does two things: pulling it to the rear, cocks the weapon's hammer and releasing the slide drives the top round in the magazine into the chamber. (Note: For weapons with an exposed hammer, the hammer can be held to the rear while squeezing the trigger which releases the sear allowing the hammer to be moved to the un-cocked position. If this is done, squeezing the trigger will not cock the hammer. The hammer must be manually cocked before the weapon can be fired by squeezing the trigger.)

3. Squeezing the trigger releases the sear, which is holding the hammer in the cocked position, and the forward movement of the hammer causes the weapon to discharge.

4. When the weapon discharges, the slide is driven to the rear ejecting the spent cartridge and cocking the hammer, and as the slide moves to the front, it drives the a cartridge from the magazine into the chamber. The weapon is now ready to be fired again by just squeezing the trigger.

Since squeezing the trigger only releases the sear, I will let everyone argue about what single and double action means in regard to a semi-automatic handguns.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  curious2c
Switch Blayde

@REP

and as the slide moves to the front, it drives the a cartridge from the magazine into the chamber. The weapon is now ready to be fired again by just squeezing the trigger.


Good. That's what I thought.

So if the round is in the chamber (like when Cherry racked the slide in the car), all she has to do is pull the trigger to shoot. And then, if there are any rounds in the magazine, the next one gets loaded into the chamber. To fire it, she just pulls the trigger.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Switch Blayde

If the magazine installed had ammo in it and she did nothing else, Yes.

One of the problems people have had with high-capacity magazines is, the magazine's spring can lose it ability to press the first round loaded into the magazine to the top of the magazine. When this happens, the slide may not pickup that last round. So when the trigger is squeezed the hammer will be release, but the weapon will not fire. I should add the known incidents were this has happened relate to the 30+ round magazines used with rifles.

It is not a problem with a full magazine, but if only one round had been loaded into the magazine, it is a possibility.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Ernest Bywater

Switch,

I don't know if all the information has overloaded you or not, or confused you or not. However, a little firearms history may help you to understand these things.

I'll jump past the flintlock and prior guns to the percussion caps, as this is really where it was possible to carry a gun ready to fire without a lot of actions immediately prior to firing. The rifle or pistol and a percussion cap at the rear of the firing chamber and hitting that with the hammer ignited the gunpowder and the gun fired. The hammers were made with a large spur on them to allow the user to use their thumb to draw the hammer back to cock the gun. The problem was if the hammer was in the uncocked position with a percussion cap under it a blow to the hammer would cause the gun to fire. This was a minor issue with rifles because it was almost impossible to drop a rifle in such a way it landed on the hammer, however, with handguns it was soon noticed to be a significant problem. Such a problem it was very common to have the cylinder under the hammer kept empty.

At one point in time gunsmiths devised a mechanism within the gun to block the hammer from falling all the way to the strike position to fire the gun while the mechanism was in place. This is called a 'safety' and it had a switch to move it into place and out of place.

With the advent of the semi-automatic and automatic pistol being magazine fed as against as loaded rotating cylinder of bullets the gunsmiths used the same mechanical trigger and firing designs, and that included a visible hammer you cocked to fire the first round, after that the gun reloaded the chamber and recocked the hammer until you fired the last round in it. In the two pictures below you can see the gun with the uncocked hammer in the first and hammer cocked in the second. In the third image you can see the safety switch just above the trigger where it can also be operated by the thumb of a right handed shooter. With handguns like this you can have a round in the chamber and the safety on to carry it loaded, but you need to cock the hammer just before you fire the first round.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colt_1911_Cal._455.JPG

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colt_1911_01.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Springfield_Armory_M1911A1.JPG

The next significant change in handguns and rifles was to have guns without an exposed hammer. With this style of gun you can load the chamber, engage the safety, and it's ready to fire as soon as you disengage the safety. Some of this style (such as the Glock) have an internal safety system to protect against firing if dropped and thus don't have a safety switch, the use of the trigger disengages the safety.

The Glock pistol is one of the best known of this style, and the image below shows it has no hammer - don't confuse the rear sight bump for a hammer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glock_17_2nd_Gen.jpg

With both styles of gun having a round in the chamber is known as Locked and Loaded, however, the style of weapon makes it a little different in how you fire the first round. Most people who rely on their handguns for a living carry their gun Locked and Loaded - not having to take the few seconds to rack the slide can be all that keeps them alive.

From a straight logic of quick use point of view a pistol without an exposed hammer will allow the user to fire faster than one with an exposed hammer, due to the difference between being carried cocked and uncocked. However, there are people who prefer the exposed hammer style, and some people who prefer specific models of guns and won't use anything else if they have a choice. Same applies to weapon calibre and ammunition too.

I hope this helps you to understand the differences.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

But if there's a round in the chamber, you don't have to cock the hammer.


You might need to for the first shot, if and only if the semi-auto has an exposed hammer and you deliberately set the hammer down on the loaded chamber.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

I hope this helps you to understand the differences.


It all helps.

The only time I mention a weapon by name is Steele's Glock 19 9mm. I never mention what Cherry is using or Steele's ankle gun or the one he keeps in the back of his waistband sometimes.

This has all been very helpful.

I don't go into detail, for example, when a gun is fired. They simply shoot. It just so happens racking the slide came up a few times so that's why I asked.

When I started this novel I thought a clip and a magazine were the same. See how far I've progressed? :)

Replies:   Jim S
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

You might need to for the first shot, if and only if the semi-auto has an exposed hammer and you deliberately set the hammer down on the loaded chamber.


Which isn't the case in the novel. I definitely don't want to overcomplicate it. It's not a story about pistols. It's about a bad-ass.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Switch Blayde

@REP

One of the problems people have had with high-capacity magazines is, the magazine's spring can lose it ability to press the first round loaded into the magazine to the top of the magazine.


I never said they were high-capacity magazines, but they probably are. But this is fiction. Things go wrong only when the plot calls for them to go wrong. :)

Jim S

@Switch Blayde

When I started this novel I thought a clip and a magazine were the same. See how far I've progressed?

Let me throw this in then to further add to your confusion (I'm nothing if not helpful :) ) -- with handguns, magazine and clip are often synonymous, though not so with shoulder weapons. Go figure.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

Which isn't the case in the novel. I definitely don't want to overcomplicate it.


Which is a good idea, but you might need to know some of these things to avoid accidentally over complicating it.

Ernest Bywater

@Jim S

with handguns, magazine and clip are often synonymous,


Only because many people misuse the term clip. There are handguns that you can reload with a clip, but not many - see image.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mauser_C96_M1916_Red_4.JPG

There are 2 major styles of clip, as shown below.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clip_M1-SKS.JPG

/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K98kclip.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StripLULA.jpeg

The stripper clip is more familiar to most people than the en bloc clip due to the stripper clip being used to load the M1 Garand and Lee-Enfield rifles. Clips can also be used to load box magazines. I believe that a lot of US soldiers used box magazines during the Vietnam war, and they also had stripper clips for speed loading of the magazines.

Because the clips are used to reload the built in magazine and do the same job as a box magazine many people think they're the same thing and confuse the terms.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

I believe that a lot of US soldiers used box magazines during the Vietnam war, and they also had stripper clips for speed loading of the magazines.


The US military has 10 round stripper clips for quick loading 30 round M16 magazines. They are still in use today.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

The stripper clip is more familiar to most people than the en bloc clip due to the stripper clip being used to load the M1 Garand and Lee-Enfield rifles.


True, but the en-block clip is probably the source of the confusion between clip and magazine.

A box magazine for a firearm consists of 4 major parts, the shell, the block which holds the cartridges in position, the feeder plate, and the spring.

The spring pushes the feeder plate up which pushes the rounds towards the top of the magazine so the top round is in position to be caught by the bolt as the bolt comes forward and can then push the cartridge into the chamber. This is true of every box magazine regardless of the action type.

Typically, the box magazine is all one piece whether it is integral to the weapon or it's removable.

With rifles designed for an en block clip, the magazine is split into two pieces. The shell, spring and feeder plate are integral to the weapon, but the block is a separate removable piece that is called a clip.

With a stripper clip, the clip it placed on the top back edge of the magazine and the rounds are pushed down into the magazine removing them from the clip.

With an en block clip, the entire clip is put into the weapon, completing the integral magazine.

Here is a video that shows how an en block clip works with an early bolt action rifle that used that style of magazine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwH1RwIboeY

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Dominions Son


True, but the en-block clip is probably the source of the confusion between clip and magazine.


That's probably the root cause of the problem. Also, the only time I've seen an en-bloc clip in use in real life it was being used to reload a box magazine. I've used a stripper clip to reload a Lee-Enfield, and I've used various box magazines too.

typo edit

Jim S

@Ernest Bywater

Only because many people misuse the term clip

Ernest,
My comment isn't directed at correct usage but what I've seen as common verbiage. That's how language ends up evolving, i.e. words start taking on different meaning. There are a lot of words from the 50s/60s having totally different meanings in the modern world (need I mention gay?). And check out English from Colonial American times to current US spoken English. In any case, I think that's whats happening here. Not saying you're incorrect, Ernest. You're not. But it is what it is.

JohnBobMead

Nothing to add, just a comment:

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I've learned a lot; the explanations have been very clear. While I haven't looked at the links provided, they sounded very useful and relevant to the focus of that post. It's stayed focused on how guns work, without drifting into any tangential ideological areas.

It's been a real pleasure, and I'm planning on making a note of this thread in case I ever have practical need for this information.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@JohnBobMead

It's been a real pleasure, and I'm planning on making a note of this thread in case I ever have practical need for this information.


Another thing that you (or anyone else) can do is simply ask those of us who own and use these firearms. As an example, I own both a Glock 17 Gen 4 (in 9mm) which does NOT have an external hammer (or anything other than a trigger safety) and a Sig-Sauer P-238 (.380) that DOES have the external hammer AND also has an additional safety.

The Sig is a perfect size for my conceal carry weapon, as it will easily fit in the internal holster and I can even slip a small holster completely inside my front jeans pocket. The Glock works nicely for my open carry weapon (I live in Oklahoma - if you have a conceal carry permit, you can also open carry - and you'd be surprised (or maybe not) by how many people do so. Note also that once you're away from the large cities - and even within city limits - actually having a firearm on hand actually makes sense simply due to mother nature. Rattlesnakes and other venomous snakes and other nasties DO live here. I've seen coyotes within the Oklahoma City limits before.)

I purchase my 5.56 already in 10 round stripper clips - a bit easier to load. And for those who wonder why I have 6 x 30 round magazines loaded at all times ... it takes time load them that in an emergency situation I might not have. I also have a GOTH pack ready. GOTH - Go To Hell plan. 3 days food and water, first aid kit, emergency shelter, small fold-up shovel, hatchet ... okay, actually a tomahawk ... survival knife, fire starter. The minor detail that the largest recorded tornado on the planet passed less than a mile from where I live might part of that planning as well.

curious2c

@REP

Single action semi-auto pistols require the hammer being pulled back to engage the trigger. Double action semi-auto pistols the trigger can force or move the hammer into firing position as it is pulled. Same with revolvers. Single action requires hammer to be manually pulled back, double action the trigger moves the hammer into firing position. So both types have either as made. Browning Hi Power pistol was double action.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2

@curious2c

Browning Hi Power pistol was double action.

The original FN Herstal Belgium Hi Power was single action only.
Later models (early 80's) introduced in the US were double action.

Darian Wolfe

@Dominions Son

"Theoretically" speaking it's best to have a go-between the person buying the gun and the black market dealer. Where you place your order for the make, model and number of guns you want with the go-between and give them the cash and their cut. They come back later with the guns.

Tw0Cr0ws

@Ross at Play

Meanwhile, the French made a similar declaration in 1789 and abolished slavery in their colonies in 1794.


As long as you ignore Haiti the French abolished slavery.
But it took the Haitians fighting against France from 1791 through 1804 to throw off the most brutal practice of slavery in the world.

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