Forum: Author Hangout

The one caveat might be the premature disclosure of the plot.

I left out a story code in one of my stories because to put it in would ruin the surprise (twist). My memory sucks, but I think it was mother/son incest. If that squicked some readers, so be it. I didn't want to ruin it for the other readers.

leave the story code in question out of the listed tags permanently.

You can do that, but don't get upset when people don't like it jumping out at them and vote 1s. A few other authors have done this and then got angry when a lot of people voted the story down because of it.

You can do that, but don't get upset when people don't like it jumping out at them and vote 1s

They can give me all the 1s they want. I don't pay much attention to the score. My goal is to write a story my readership will enjoy. Not giving away the plot or twist trumps anyone who would be squicked.

My goal is to write a story my readership will enjoy.

and not warning about something that will squick a reader will ensure they don't enjoy that story, and may stop them from reading any more of your stories because you broke your trust with them and they walk away.

It's your right (as an author) to hide anything you wish, but please be aware of the pitfalls that await such actions.

and not warning about something that will squick a reader will ensure they don't enjoy that story, and may stop them from reading any more of your stories because you broke your trust with them and they walk away.

It's your right (as an author) to hide anything you wish, but please be aware of the pitfalls that await such actions.

Despite my other protests, I agree with this. Trust between an author and reader are vitally important. It's better to have readers trust your stories (i.e. not pulling the rug out from under them) than it is to hide story elements for their 'surprise' element.

and not warning about something that will squick a reader will ensure they don't enjoy that story, and may stop them from reading any more of your stories because you broke your trust with them and they walk away.

They're not my readership. I write for open-minded readers who can enjoy a story even if they don't like something in it. Maybe not liking something in it is done purposefully to get them to dislike a character more.

When I watch a movie where someone is sewing someone up (like after removing a bullet or a knife wound), I close my eyes and turn away. I may still love the story even if that scene squicked me.

In other threads, people say they skim over or bypass sex scenes. So if something comes up that squicks you, skip it. If it's critical to the plot, you end up missing something important just like skipping a significant sex scene would.

When was the last time anyone went to a bookstore and found codes/tags listed in the book?

Most book stores have book in categories that do much the same thing, also the book cover has a lot longer description than allowed here, and they also usually include comments by reviewers to help you judge.

While the descriptions may be longer, I find they are just better written than those posted by most writers here.

Yes, but it is also difficult to write a truly great description with a 500 character limit. But I do agree, many authors could do a lot better than they do.

Yes, but it is also difficult to write a truly great description with a 500 character limit. But I do agree, many authors could do a lot better than they do.

When you publish (self-publishing), most sites offer both long and short descriptions, and these typically vary between one site (say Amazon) and another (createspace, which is an Amazon company). Thus I'll write one longer version, then edit that basic description down for each different site. By addressing each separately, you make each description more complete, rather than simply on an ad-hock basis.

It's generally easier to cut something down to size than it is to write a 500 character description.

When such a limit is removed, the few added words can easily be the difference between a poor/average description and a really great description.

When such a limit is removed, the few added words can easily be the difference between a poor/average description and a really great description.

and totally leaves for dead the ones that simply say something like 'I wrote this and hope you like it.' Some of the story descriptions say a hell of a lot more about the writer than the story.

When such a limit is removed, the few added words can easily be the difference between a poor/average description and a really great description.

I agree, which is why I prefer the longer descriptions, and typically include them on the back of my paperback books. However, I also tend to write fairly consistent descriptions (almost always two paragraphs), so they aren't overly long and you lose quite a bit when I leave something out.

My SOL descriptions are never as good as my Amazon and SW descriptions.

While the descriptions may be longer, I find they are just better written than those posted by most writers here.

That's a Major point. The story description is probably the most important thing you'll write, as no one will ever read the story is the description is crap. Yet, few authors spend much time on it, and even fewer submit the story description to their editors (though, being honest, it's hard to get editors to pay as much attention to a 2 paragraph description as it is a full chapter).

In my case, the first thing I write in a story is the story description, followed by the book title, as they provide an brief 'elevator speech' which helps me keep the story on target, addressing the central concerns, rather than going willy-nilly in every possible direction.

Either way, I'm grateful for the warning to avoid the author like a ... code will be revealed later.

I've just submitted the prologue to a new story. Because of this topic, I've added the line to my own description.

The story involves witchcraft. Magic is listed as a 'Level of Consent' but it plays absolutely no part in the level of consent in my story so I felt I couldn't use the code. I've used 'Paranormal' instead. Have any other authors encountered this problem and, if so, what did they do about it?

AJ

Personally I did not tag everything I could have tagged, simply because I found some of the tags utterly insignificant to the story, and didn't want to raise their importance by adding a special tag.

Again, on SOL in particular, many of the tags have a particular sexual component which makes them irrelevant for the majority of stories. You'd NEVER list "black" unless your story features BBM raping a sexually charged young white slut, nor would you include Oriental, just because you have Asian characters. Those codes are exclusively for stereotypical sexual scenarios that the majority of people would find insulting and demeaning.

Just because a code exists is no reason why you should ever include it.

Yes, it's basically intended for magic based mind control/coercion.

Not sure how to name it to keep it separate from the magic(consent) tag, but perhaps it's time for a more general magic tag under the Paranormal group.

Rather than "paranormal", I'd list is as (witchcraft, MC), so it's clear what's involved from the get go. That way, no one has any complaints with how the story turns out when they eventually reach the specific story element.

We are discussing adding a tag for magic that does not involve mind control.

Oops, there is an element of mind-control involved but it doesn't affect the protagonist.

I'd probably better proof-read the proper Chapter 1 and submit it so that, if people are interested, they can see where the story is heading.

AJ

You have it backwards. The existing magic tag is for magical mind control. We are discussing adding a tag for magic that does not involve mind control.

Sorry, never having written any 'magic' or witchcraft stories, I'd never examined the codes before. Given the widespread success and multiple imitations of Harry Potter, you'd think they'd add a non-sexual magic story code.

The story involves witchcraft. Magic is listed as a 'Level of Consent' but it plays absolutely no part in the level of consent in my story so I felt I couldn't use the code. I've used 'Paranormal' instead. Have any other authors encountered this problem and, if so, what did they do about it?

Why would "witchcraft" affect the level of consent? If you included "rape" or "slavery" I could see it, but I would never assume a story about "witchcraft" dealt with mind-control issues unless that was specifically posted as an element in the story.

Actually I'm worried I haven't fully thought things through.

There is no mt/mt sexual content planned and your post has brought home to me that, based on the title and description, that's what readers might well be expecting :(

I have the first few (short) chapters written plus the ending. What's missing is the build-up to the climax.

When I checked the story stats I found 6 people had voted on the story. When I submitted the Prologue to the wizard, I deliberately switched off scoring because I wanted readers to get a feel for where the story was going first. I'm still wondering how scoring got enabled. I had to go back and edit one of the submission form pages but it wasn't the one that involved scoring. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I'm reluctant to raise a bug with no substantiating evidence.

And my humble apologies to the six readers whose votes were nuked when I disabled scoring.

AJ

When I checked the story stats I found 6 people had voted on the story. When I submitted the Prologue to the wizard, I deliberately switched off scoring because I wanted readers to get a feel for where the story was going first. I'm still wondering how scoring got enabled. I had to go back and edit one of the submission form pages but it wasn't the one that involved scoring. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I'm reluctant to raise a bug with no substantiating evidence.

The default is to allow scoring (since the story won't count for a free upgrade if it isn't), thus if you didn't specify it, it'll automatically allow scoring. I haven't noticed any posts going against my wishes, but then I don't post non-scoring stories.

As I said in my post, I switched off scoring.

Trying to upload the next part of 'Gay!', I got the submission wizard into a right tizzy. When I selected the pen name, it allowed voting. When I disallowed voting, it blanked out the pen name. When I selected the pen name, it re-enabled voting.

I abandoned the submission wizard and started again. Eventually I managed to get through it but some of the options weren't actively displayed to me (eg Moderator Notes) and I had to invoke the edit facility immediately before submission confirmation.

It will be interesting to see the consequences :(

AJ

Did you try completing the post and then editing the posted story's characteristics you had trouble setting, to what you wanted?

Actually I tried quite a few more things than I listed. Trouble is, when you get to the confirmation stage, you can adjust the pen name but the form doesn't show the setting for voting, unlike the first pass through the wizard.

Fortunately the eventual result seems to be okay, although the vote count is now one more than I remember.

AJ

Actually I tried quite a few more things than I listed.

Just a guess, but on the Manage Stories Page, there is a Change Voting for All option. If you have that set to 'Allow' voting for all stories, then when you try to set voting to Off for just one story, there may be a conflict. The system default in resolving the conflict may be to not accept your penname.

Since, by killing the wizard and starting again, I was eventually able to select my pen name and select voting to be disabled for the story, I don't think that's how the wizard is supposed to work.

I suspect that, since I'm not a proficient user of the wizard, my having to backtrack took it through a non-standard and untested path, following which it lost its way.

Still seven votes (including a 1-bomb) so it looks as though voting is still off. Perhaps someone voted in the time it took me to switch voting off after I discovered my original selection had been overruled.

AJ

When I selected the pen name, it allowed voting. When I disallowed voting, it blanked out the pen name. When I selected the pen name, it re-enabled voting.

Some settings you can make while in the Wizard, some you have to do from the main Author control panel. Also, while uploading a story you have to save each stage as you go, and any changes are best made when all the basic information is in and you can select and item via the 'change' link on the right.

I abandoned the submission wizard and started again. Eventually I managed to get through it but some of the options weren't actively displayed to me (eg Moderator Notes) and I had to invoke the edit facility immediately before submission confirmation.

In that case, I'm guessing you're trying to counter the default account settings (say, if your default setting is NOT to allow voting but you then choose to set them on an individual story). However, as far as I know, the voting is a per-story choice. Either way, I'd list in in the 'Bugs and New Features' forum.

I've just noticed your new post which includes this thread's title in its description.
While I disapprove of the practice in principle, the story's title, Gay!, seems like a perfectly adequate warning to readers who want to avoid certain squicks to wait until the posting is complete before deciding whether to read it. :-)

Alas, it's also a know phenomenon on SOL for homophobic readers to seek out anything listing MM codes just so they can 1-bomb it, without ever having any intention of reading it. (As opposed to the 1-bombers who vent about politics, who'll 1-bomb as story they read religiously each time a new chapter posts.)

That's why I've NEVER posted my one gay romance story to SOL, because I know it's guaranteed to be viciously attacked, rather than getting a fair (even if unfavorable) score. You'll also note how few stories have a black or Hispanic main character (and few black authors we've ever had abandoned the site a long, long time ago).

I would forgive that author if the added code was an unacceptable squick for me.
I would 1-bomb the story if they'd known about it all along.

I can think of a couple stories which included an extremely short passage, which the author felt necessary to explore to present a complete story, that involved a brief Mm passage. He provided just such a warning, but his scores permanently tanked, even though he made it clear that readers upset by it could simply bypass the entire chapter. Yet because he included that single squick chapter (1 out of 120+) his scores never recovered from that one-time hit.

That strikes me, not as much as squick avoidance, as a hate crime against authors voicing alternative opinions. In short, it's akin to someone writing about the lives of slaves before the Civil War (remember, Uncle Tom's Cabin was, when it was written, one of the most most HATED stories in America, even as it hit record sales at the time).

There are 'sensible' solutions, but there are no perfect solutions, and in general, it doesn't pay to avoid squicks entirely simply out of a fear of individual reader's displeasure. An author's entire role in life is to make readers think. If he only post pablum which no one ever objects to, then he's merely wasting everyone's time. Even if you don't agree with the author who posts something controversial, it's worth the time if it gets people talking about it, even if he never convinces anyone to his particular point of view.

By the way, the scene in question focused on one of the story's main characters trying to help heal a young man victimized by the story antagonist early in the story, thus the author it was necessary to help balance out the story and help resolve the harm done, and show the extents the characters would go to in reaching out to the underprivileged.

In short, every time you 1-bomb a story, you're telling an entire contingent of potential readers for the site "Fuck off and Die, we don't want your kind here, no matter how well you write or what you may have to offer."

You don't have to agree with them, but refusing to allow them a seat at the table seems inherently unfair for any minority.

No, he meant to write 'posts pablum', ie posts bland stories.

AJ

ie posts bland stories.

I wouldn't have thought there was much interest in bland stories about posts? Do they chronicle how they sit there and weather over time? Or are they about slow and boring military post activities?

Thanks. It's not in my Oxford Dictionary, but I found it when I looked harder in dictionary.com, and it was the correct word to use.

I suspect it's mainly an American term, based on an early brand of processed baby foods first marketed in the U.S..

Pablum: (noun) bland or insipid intellectual fare, entertainment, etc.; pap. The name derived from the word, strained baby foods unlikely to upset sensitive stomachs.

The term should have been "post[s] pablum".

I have never done it, and I expect I'd also write to the author stating what my objection was.

Sorry, that comment wasn't specifically about your squick, but about a comment about squicks hurting the site (if I remember the context correctly).
It isn't the people who rate stories poorly that bug me, but those who post 1-bombs, because they almost always have a specific agenda (such as trying to eliminate a specific minority viewpoint from the site).

One story (I conveniently don't remember which)has a chapter with a heading warning about the contents of that specific chapter and giving readers the specified option of skipping most of it to avoid what might cause offence. Having read both, the "alternative" clause kept the story on line without the extremities of the warned section

I think I've done that before. If memory serves (it's been awhile) it was a warning about a particular incest theme because many readers were following the story after warning me that they didn't like incest stories. But I tried to supply a simple way of avoiding the sections where it occurred (even though it contained important dialogue, I summarized the dialogue in the next chapter so they wouldn't get lost if they skipped the chapter).

It does seem like a better option than changing codes, especially since, as has been observed, many readers don't pay attention to the codes for their particular squicks.

Don't ever expect to be published if that is the case. An editor wants to know exactly where the story is going before he will accept a manuscript. That's why most editors demand an outline before they agree to read a manuscript.

Not exactly true. Unless you're well-known author, no editor/publisher will consider your novel if it's not complete. For non-fiction, they want a chapter-by-chapter detailed outline before it's written (the outline can be 50 pages).

With fiction, the editor wants a synopsis simply because they don't want to spend the time reading the whole manuscript. They may ask for a few sample chapters to check out your writing, but it's the synopsis that tells them about the structure of your story.

So when you submit to a publisher, the novel is done and they have no idea how many changes and rewrites you made.

So when you submit to a publisher, the novel is done and they have no idea how many changes and rewrites you made.

As opposed to most of the stories we're discussing here, which are written and posted a single chapter at a time, and thus the authors are never quite sure of the final list of story codes.

It's hard being truthful about a story when you don't know where it's going to end up yourself.

It's hard being truthful about a story when you don't know where it's going to end up yourself.

Sometimes it's by accident. I have non-consent stories. Some people tell me I left out the "rape" story code. My answer is that the "rape" story code is reserved for the violent, knock-down rape, not just non-consent (or even consensual underage sex which is statutory rape). But in one of my stories the woman was dragged and maybe more (I don't remember) so when a reader said I was missing the "rape" story code he was right. It was an oversight.

However, I don't think I went back and added the "rape" code. Why? The physical part was a couple of lines of the story and then the woman gave in because of her being blackmailed or something. She simply had a moment of rebellion but quickly submitted again. So even though there was an instant of "rape," It wasn't part of the story.

Those "unexpected turn(s)" tell me that the author has no idea how his story line is going to progress. Don't ever expect to be published if that is the case.

Two things:

First, posting a story and publishing a book are different things and shouldn't be compared as if they are the same thing.

Posting a story is a marketing effort and is about gaining a reader's interest to the extent that they will at least start reading the story. That is done by providing a GOOD description of the story line and by providing story codes that signify the types of content in the story. If you check the New Story listing, almost a third of the descriptions don't address the storyline. Saying "a continuation of XYZ story" or "Just read it" is not enough. The author then provides 20+ story codes. My reading time is limited, so if the author doesn't let me know what the story is about, I'll select one of the other newly posted stories to add to my library. What that means is the Author's marketing effort failed.

Publishing a book is about gaining a publisher's interest, not the editors. The outline is used to determine if the time necessary to look at the manuscript is warranted. If all of that works out then the effort is expended to proceed toward publishing the book. The marketing effort starts after the book is ready for printing.

Does the reader have a right to know what he's getting into before he starts a story?

Yes he does. A GOOD description and appropriate story codes should provide that knowledge. Authors do not provide all the story codes upfront for at least 2 reasons:

1. Some Authors withhold story codes because they view them as 'spoilers' that ruin a surprise. Unfortunately, not all surprises are good surprises. This is true when the reader has a strong aversion to content the withheld codes signify. Authors pay the price when this happens - an upset reader.

Personally, I do not view codes as spoilers. All the codes say is certain types of content will appear in the story. Posting a code does not identify where in the story the content will appear or precisely what the scene will contain and how many similar scenes there will be in the story. If the code is provided upfront, then when the content appears, it should not be a total surprise. Too bad some readers don't check codes before they start reading a story, and end up complaining about the content the codes indicated would appear.

2. Authors who start posting before their story is complete, outline the story in their heads if not on paper. They understand where the story will go, but they usually do not have all of the scenes worked out in advance. Therefore the author tells the reader that codes may be added as the story and its scenes evolve.

I guess, is to write the story then post it

That's what I do, but for different reasons. I don't have to meet a scheduled posting date and if I want to add, modify, or delete something in an earlier chapter I can do so.

That's what I do, but for different reasons. I don't have to meet a scheduled posting date and if I want to add, modify, or delete something in an earlier chapter I can do so.

Better yet, you can modify the earlier chapters so they can foreshadow, or emphasize what'll eventually happen later, while dropping abandoned story threads entirely (the things which never happened in the story).

You don't need to have your story completed to be able to use foreshadowing in early chapters. I merrily did that years before I actually wrote the foreshadowed events.

That's true, as I often do that when I write the initial chapters, but as the story changes, I typically change many of the things I foreshadow, either adding new elements and modify or eliminate the elements that have changed.

so they can foreshadow, or emphasize what'll eventually happen later, while dropping abandoned story threads entirely (the things which never happened in the story).

I try to avoid foreshadowing, and stay in the moment. However, I will have the MC, or another character, contemplate a set of possibilities that may occur and sometimes they consider their options, but I try to not focus on the possibility that will be followed, assuming of course I mention what will eventually happen.

My feelings about abandoned story threads is that when the reader encounters one, they try to integrate it into the main thread as they perceive it at that point. That leads to speculation as to where the story will go and that can enhance the reading experience. When I read a story that does not have these 'red-herrings' I find that the author is often predictable and the finale is not a surprise.

I try to avoid foreshadowing, and stay in the moment. However, I will have the MC, or another character, contemplate a set of possibilities that may occur and sometimes they consider their options, but I try to not focus on the possibility that will be followed, assuming of course I mention what will eventually happen.

That's typically how I foreshadow. The characters will discuss different possible options, one will foreshadow what happens, possibly highlighting how it's likely to go wrong, while the others are red-herrings, so the readers won't guess which outcome is more likely.

I also so asides—often set-aside with em-dashes so the readers pay more attention to it—which highlight what's likely to happen. For example:

Someone should try that technique—though there's no telling what the response might be—as it may give us a substantial leg up.

That way, you never explicitly tell them what's going to happen, but you're emphasizing it so they'll remember it when it does happen.

My feelings about abandoned story threads is that when the reader encounters one, they try to integrate it into the main thread as they perceive it at that point. That leads to speculation as to where the story will go and that can enhance the reading experience. When I read a story that does not have these 'red-herrings' I find that the author is often predictable and the finale is not a surprise.

If you plan your red-herrings, then you don't need to rely on accidental red-herrings.

I typically put a lot of thought into my red-herrings (which might be why some don't feel there are enough of them). But then, I also place them where they're more essential (amidst the foreshadowed elements, so the readers don't know where the story is going in the first place).

That's typically how I foreshadow.

I certainly wouldn't define that as foreshadowing. To me classic foreshadowing would be 'Little did John know that shortly XYZ would occur.

Evaluating a situation and attempting to predict possible outcome is totally different. You aren't telling the reader what will happen. For me, I often have an option I don't mention and that option is what happens. All my possibilities never happen and are just dead-ends. But they do make the reader think rather than just get carried along. Especially when I don't define those possibilities in detail.

Foreshadowing is when a female character mentions in chapter 1 that "Hey, funny thing. Both my mom and grandma died of breast cancer."

That's when you tell her a joke that'll knock the tits off her. Oh, wait, she's already heard it ...

(Yeah, maybe harsh for the uninitiated - my wife is a 20 year survivor, so we've heard 'em all.)

I certainly wouldn't define that as foreshadowing. To me classic foreshadowing would be 'Little did John know that shortly XYZ would occur.

That's not foreshadowing, that's a spoiler!

It's not just a story spoiler, but it's author intrusion at it's worst. It's the author, jumping into the middle of the story to announce, ahead of time, what's going to happen. That's wrong on a whole variety of counts.

Foreshadowing is when a female character mentions in chapter 1 that "Hey, funny thing. Both my mom and grandma died of breast cancer."

That's the type that I use, I mention things that hint at what's going to happen without stating it explicitly. The idea isn't to TELL the reader what's going to happen, but to sprinkle subtle clues in the story so that, when the ending occurs, the reader says: "Gee, that all makes sense. I can see how it all developed and fits into place, even if I didn't see it developing."

Part of the effort is to prepare the reader for the conclusion, while still leaving it as a surprise rather than a letdown.

That's not foreshadowing, that's a spoiler!

That is one of the reasons why foreshadowing is considered a poor practice.

REP 8/10/2017, 10:32:19 AM

@Harold Wilson
That's not foreshadowing, that's a spoiler!

That is one of the reasons why foreshadowing is considered a poor practice.

I have a character, a cop, murdering people for revenge. As a cop, he believes you never get away with it (foreshadowing). He knows if he gets caught he will kill himself rather than endure the embarrassment (foreshadowing). He won't commit to a long-term relationship with his girlfriend because he doesn't expect to be around for the long-term (foreshadowing).

Why is that a spoiler?

It isn't, the cop could be wrong.

And if he's wrong, does the foreshadowing become a red-herring?

I've seen this in a couple of places, and not enjoyed it at all. I'd suggest that if you write "Little did (sh/h/w)e know/realize/suspect" without having them come from the mouth of an elderly secondary character, you're making a mistake and should delete that paragraph.

Today that's called author intrusion, but it was acceptable in the past. Jane Austin would write: "Dear Reader, if only so-and-so had known that..."

Yeah, and I don't read her stuff, so ...

Still, it's useful knowing where these techniques originate from so you'll understand their pitfalls and the penalties for screwing them up. With that knowledge, you're slightly less likely to fuck them up yourself!

Often I know the identity of the murderer early on (something I could not do 30 years ago.) Either I'm getting better or the writers are getting worse.

Trust me, everyone goes (guesses who did it), which is the entire attraction of the story. It isn't that Sherlock is such a genius, as it's a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the viewers ("See, I'm as smart as Sherlock is!").

However, again, that's not an example of the evils of foreshadowing, that's a caution against Bad foreshadowing!

If you wrote "Little did he know he would eventually be trapped in a stairwell, forced to eat his service pistol to avoid capture for his crimes" then *that* would be a spoiler. And the kind of dreck that I totally agree is poor practice.

That was exactly the point I just made. You're not objecting to foreshadowing, as much as you're objecting to poorly-executed foreshadowing. Which raises the question, have you encountered many instances of successful foreshadowing, or are you so intimidated by getting it wrong that you avoid it as a matter of principle?

spoiler

I don't think it is a spoiler. Of course, I also don't consider it foreshadowing, but that is just me.

What you describe is the normal activity of a person planning what he might do if caught. People make plans all the time. Sometimes multiple conflicting plans, and sometimes unrealistic plans.

Now if you had said MC will be trapped killing Mr. X six months from now, then you would be telling the reader what will happen, which is what I consider foreshadowing.

I also don't consider it foreshadowing

What if it comes true? What if he doesn't live? Or what if gets caught and kills himself? Why wouldn't that be foreshadowing?

Now if he doesn't get caught and lives, that would be a red-herring. But when the reader is reading it, they would consider it foreshadowing.

Why wouldn't that be foreshadowing?

I tried to find a good definition of foreshadowing. There seems to be 2 schools of thought.

The first school considers foreshadowing to be the revelation of what will happen before the event occurs. Your earlier example "Little did he know he would eventually be trapped in a stairwell, forced to eat his service pistol to avoid capture for his crimes" is what this school of thought considers foreshadowing. In other words, telling ther reader the essence of what will happen, even if all the details of that event are not provided.

The second school of thought says hinting at what will happen is foreshadowing. This school seems to feel that putting hints in the storyline even if they are not directly linked to what will happen are foreshadowing techniques. An example of this, using your comment as a foundation, would be "He considered his solution if he was ever trapped in a stairwell. Would he really eat his service pistol to avoid capture for his crimes?"

I hold with the first school of thought. Others in this thread belong to the second school of thought.

Telling the reader that a specific thing will happen is a spoiler. Suggesting things that might happen is building anticipation.

Would you consider a chapter ending with 'But little did he expect what was about to befall him.' to be foreshadowing?

AJ

Would you consider a chapter ending with 'But little did he expect what was about to befall him.' to be foreshadowing?

No, because the reader is not being provided any information about what will happen.

In a story, the reader knows that something will happen in the coming chapters, so I would consider it an attempt to create a dramatic ending so the reader's interest will carry over to the next chapter. Not necessary in my personal opinion if the story has a decent plot and is being presented in an interesting fashion. I recall us discussing eliminating unnecessary words in a passage as a good writing technique. Such a statement is a very good candidate for removal for it adds nothing to the story.

Would you consider a chapter ending with 'But little did he expect what was about to befall him.' to be foreshadowing?

It's TELLING the reader (author intrusion) that you're planning something big in the next chapter (a clear example of the author bragging to the reader about how clever he is, rather than adding anything to the story itself).

A better example of foreshadowing, it showing someone reaching for the fireplace poker moments before the power goes out. Since you don't know what's going to happen, or who's taking the actions, the author isn't TELLINg the reader anything, instead the narrator is simply observing an action, relying it to the reader.

Note: By the way, I've got to apologize, once again, coming in a week late and a dollar short and responding to each comment rather than forming one massive response after I've read the 80 intervening posts that's I've missed since I was last here.

A better example of foreshadowing, it showing someone reaching for the fireplace poker moments before the power goes out.

That's not foreshadowing. It doesn't suggest or indicate anything.

AJ

It doesn't suggest or indicate anything.

In murder mysteries, being killed by a fireplace poker is a cliché. So in that context, it does suggest something might be about to happen.

A better example of foreshadowing, it showing someone reaching for the fireplace poker moments before the power goes out. Since you don't know what's going to happen, or who's taking the actions, the author isn't TELLINg the reader anything, instead the narrator is simply observing an action, relying it to the reader.

That's not foreshadowing. If anything, that's a cliffhanger.

A mistake?

No. The second school of thought is saying the mere suggestion of something that MIGHT happen is foreshadowing. I believe foreshadowing to be revealing what WILL happen, which places me in the first school of thought.

In this case I agree with Ross, foretelling would be the better term. If the message is clear, there is no 'shadow'. 'Shadowing' implies a lack of clarity.

Foretelling is another good term for the practice. But the conversation is about foreshadowing.

In this instance 'Fore' refers to 'before an event happens'. A shadow is a direct result of something between the sun and the ground or other surface. Shadows don't provide all of the details of what caused them. Combining those 2 concepts gives you - telling the reader an event will happen without providing the event's details. The fact that the event will occur is clear, but with no details, there is a lack of clarity about the lead-up to and scope of the event (i.e. who is involved, where it happens, how it happens, etc.)

I believe foreshadowing to be revealing what WILL happen, which places me in the first school of thought.

I'm on the other side of the fence, if indeed it is a binary option. I think the operative word is shadow - IMO foreshadowing isn't explicitly informing of what is about to happen, it's casting a shadow of what's about to happen.

'Watch the second half, in which Manchester United triumph after making a miraculous comeback from 3-0 down' I'd class as a spoiler.

'Watch the second half, because you'll never believe your eyes' I'd class as foreshadowing.

AJ

Actually, there are more literary types of foreshadowing. Things like psychological foreshadowing, where the main character's history of pointless arguments at work is followed by a bitter argument with his girlfriend. Or an ominous thunderstorm followed by devastating personal news.

Those are, unsurprisingly, actually called 'literary foreshadowing', as it's a separate foreshadowing technique.

I had one story where I decided to make the weather an actual character in the story. Anytime the weather got rough, something was about to go wrong. Anytime it got sunny, things would settle down. It wasn't Telling the reader what would happen, as they wouldn't know what the weather was doing until well into the story, and even then they wouldn't know precisely what would happen, but it captured the character's moods, more than revealing future actions. It expressed their skepticism and frustration, rather than any foreknowledge, but more importantly, it prepared the readers for what was about to happen, so they could make sense of it later (after they figured out that the weather wasn't immaterial to the story). "Oh, now I see why it was always snowing and blowing during a shootout!"

Now if you had said MC will be trapped killing Mr. X six months from now, then you would be telling the reader what will happen, which is what I consider foreshadowing.

You're confusing foreshadowing (preparing the reader for what will eventually happen without spelling it out for them) with author intrusion (where the author jumps into the middle of the story to brag about how clever he is). They're two distinct techniques. One can be poorly executed, but the latter is almost universally a bad idea!

CW,
Several days ago, I said there seemed to be 2 schools of thought as to what foreshadowing was. I placed myself in my first school of thought with the people who believe the Author who knows what will happen in the story and tells the reader what will happen before the reader reaches the point in the story where the event occurs.

You want to call that Author Intrusion and it is. What you aren't stating is that Author Intrusion is a category for the passages the Author inserts in a story that intrude on the flow of the story. Foreshadowing is a technique that intrudes on the flow of the story, so it is Author Intrusion.

I consider Foreshadowing to be a negative and do my best to avoid it.

You appear to be a member of the second school of thought.

You having been telling us about how you use foreshadowing. You have said that it is a good thing when done properly. You and others indicate that a specific technique is Foreshadowing, and as a group, you cite different techniques as Foreshadowing. So it sounds to me that the people in this thread who do not belong in the first school of thought want to throw every technique they use into a category and call the category Foreshadowing. That is fine with me, if that is what the second school of thought wants to do.

However, if that is how the rest of you define Foreshadowing, then say so. If that is not what you mean by Foreshadowing, then you as a group will have to define it to me and the rest of the first school of thought. Of course, there may be more than 2 schools of thought as to what constitutes Foreshadowing.

, explaining how it is used is not defining it. Telling me it is a good/bad technique is not defining it either.

I consider Foreshadowing to be a negative and do my best to avoid it.

You appear to be a member of the second school of thought.

Again, rather than us disagreeing on what constitutes foreshadowing, I think we're confusing definitions. Author Intrusion IS a form of foreshadowing, but is universally panned as a bad idea because it yanks readers out of the story, however it's applied. That seems to be what you're describing. Whereas most foreshadowing isn't as heavy handed, simply indicating where the story may go, rather than revealing what will happen.

It's a useful technique, not because authors should announce what will happen, but that, since it's unclear, it helps provide context once the story ends, rather than revealing the ending ahead of time.

Think of it this way: "Foreshadowing" DOES include both forms, but because it can be such a problem, the 'literary authorities' have labeled the bad form by a specific name, so it's easier to spot and therefore avoid.

Also note, as I mentioned to Ross in another thread, his providing jokes to his fans in his stories is another form of author intrusion, so author intrusion is not always a form of foreshadowing. In other words, foreshadowing itself isn't the problem, author intrusion is (even though it's sometimes humorous). It's the latter that should be avoided, not foreshadowing.

I'm not sure that makes anything any clearer, but defining the two different cases should help to clarify what we're referring to.

In short, to properly define the terms:
"Foreshadowing" is whenever you reveal what's may happen.
"Author Intrusion" is when the author jumps into the story to tell the reader something that only HE knows.
"Foreshadowing" is generally, only a problem, when it falls into the Author Intrusion camp (i.e. the author is specifically telling the reader what WILL happen, rather than merely suggesting what may happen).

I'll try again CW from a different POV.

I understand your definitions of Author Intrusion and Foreshadowing and agree with the definition of Author Intrusion.

What you seen to keep missing about my opinion is – the 2 schools of thought I keep mentioning define Foreshadowing differently. Maybe this will help:

CW's definition - "Foreshadowing" is whenever you reveal what may happen.

REP's definition - "Foreshadowing" is whenever you reveal what will happen.

Explaining what your school of thought believes doesn't help for I already understand your explanation which does support Your Definition of Foreshadowing.

The problem is I disagree with Your Definition.

Defining Foreshadowing as the author telling the reader what WILL happen does not mean I think it is a good thing. Frankly, I believe Author Intrusion and Foreshadowing (my definition) are both very bad practices and Authors should avoid the practices.

In my opinion, using a character's narrative or dialog to suggest things that may happen is a valid and good technique to use. However, I DO NOT consider that to be Foreshadowing.

Does a stuffed bear standing in the corner with its teeth and claws ready for use mean a character will be mauled by a bear in the story?

Does a stuffed bear standing in the corner with its teeth and claws ready for use mean a character will be mauled by a bear in the story?

According to literary foreshadowing, apparently yes.

AJ

Meaning of foreshadow:

Be a warning or indication of (a future event)

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/foreshadow

Foreshadowing is a literary device in which a writer gives an advance hint of what is to come later in the story.

https://literarydevices.net/foreshadowing/

Foreshadowing is a literary device by which an author hints what is to come. Foreshadowing is a dramatic device in which an important plot-point is mentioned early in the story, and will later return in a more significant way.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreshadowing

Three specific definitions which all state foreshadowing is the advance notification to the reader that a specific event will happen. If the event does not happen then the advance description is not foreshadowing.

That's was Chekhov's idea - keep a story taut by omitting unnecessary detail.

If you adopt Chekhov's principle, then mentioning the gun is foreshadowing. It's not foretelling or revealing because you don't know who is going to be killed by whom.

AJ

That's was Chekhov's idea - keep a story taut by omitting unnecessary detail.

Although what Chekhov had to say is important, a lot of people forget his comments were about plays not stories, and there is a big difference between the two.

In a play there's a heck of a lot of visual props to help set the scene and move the plot along, and the visible actions also helps in this. With a story we have to use words to layout and describe the stage and the actions as well as the dialogue. Where a play can have a window on the stage with a scene behind it as part of setting the stage, an author has to describe what is relevant of that window and scene.

The key aspect of Chekhov's statement is not so much about omitting detail as omitting totally irrelevant detail and is also about ensuring that any significant action you have the characters do have some significance to the plot along the way.

If the scene is a cabin and there's a rifle sitting on the mantle piece it's part of the background to set the stage, but if the same scene opens without the rifle and the main character walks in with a rifle and places it on the mantle piece there's a much higher significance in the purpose of the rifle that you have to account for in the play and in your story. It's this subtle difference in the two scenes that a lot of people miss when they quote Chekhov.

In a play there's a heck of a lot of visual props to help set the scene and move the plot along,

I don't think that was true in Chekhov's time - use of props was very sparse and 'creative'. So requiring a rifle to be sourced and placed above a mantlepiece when it had no relevance to the proceedings was a big deal.

AJ

So requiring a rifle to be sourced and placed above a mantlepiece when it had no relevance to the proceedings was a big deal.

That may be true from a production point of view due to what the prop is, but from the play perspective a background prop is nothing outside of setting the scene. Which is the point I was making, the difference between a background prop and an important prop introduced by a character.

If that is not what you mean by Foreshadowing, then you as a group will have to define it to me

Foreshadowing is an advance hint of what is to come later in the story.

In my novel, the cop just knows he's not going to survive. It's foreshadowing his death.

It affects his relationships. It also helps define his character — that he's willing to die to get revenge.

If he dies at the end, his death was foreshadowed. But what if he didn't die at the end? I guess his death is still foreshadowed, but it turns into a red-herring. Although red-herring might be too strong. It's purpose is to mislead. So if he doesn't die, it's simply a foreshadow that didn't come to be.

Foreshadowing is an advance hint of what is to come later in the story

That is the premise I keep stating.

If you are foreshadowing an event then the event will happen in the story. If it doesn't happen then you aren't foreshadowing. Call it something else but not foreshadowing. I happen to call those types of statements red herrings for they are intended to mislead.

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions.
https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

A couple of hours ago, I posted 3 definitions with sources that state foreshadowing is telling about an event before it happens. I have also seen definitions that differ from what I post, so it comes down to how do you want to define foreshadowing. That is why I said there are 2 schools of thought on the matter.

Why is that a spoiler?

Switch, aside from your example being a telling-example, your use of foreshadowing is applying it as a motivation, expanding on the character definition.

I suspect REP is referring to instances where you reveal what happens (ex: "Little did he know, that his actions would soon blow up in his face").

However, those aren't examples of foreshadowing being poor practices, as much as they're simply examples of bad (poorly-executed) foreshadowing.

Like any literary technique, some handle them largely intuitively, while other mostly fumble with them. (By the way, I'm not sure where I fall in that spectrum, but so far—cross my fingers—no one has ever criticized my use of foreshadowing yet).

Evaluating a situation and attempting to predict possible outcome is totally different. You aren't telling the reader what will happen. For me, I often have an option I don't mention and that option is what happens. All my possibilities never happen and are just dead-ends. But they do make the reader think rather than just get carried along. Especially when I don't define those possibilities in detail.

Part of the objective is to get readers involved in the story, so involving them in the story planning, as they guess what might happen helps to pull them into the story. False leads are therefore, not merely red-herrings, they're getting the readers to actively guess about the plot and curious about where it's likely to go.

I much prefer codes indicate what is there, not what will be there in the future. I suspect I'm in the minority on this.

And, thus, we move on to the realm of the two major types of authors.

1. One type writes and posts as they go.

2. The other type writes the whole story and posts it in instalments.

With the second type they already know all the codes that will apply, and code them when they start posting the story, and the reader need only wait until the relevant chapter appears.

One advantage I have with completing a story and posting all the codes is when I'm uploading all the other chapters I don't have to think about the codes and can just skip through that part of the Wizard, because it's already done.

I don't like waiting is the thing.

I can understand that, and it's one of the reason why I post new stories every other day and not once a week. However, most stories end up being fully posted with it all on the site for a lot longer than the time it's initially posted over.

I don't like waiting is the thing. Often if I'm looking for a particular thing on here, it's because I want that particular thing now, not in six months when it finally gets posted.

Maybe in six months I'll want it. But until then, it kind of bothers me as a reader to have it advertised, but not actually there.

Typically, those of us who write complete stories before posting don't write 100+ chapter stories. Instead, we break the story down into distinct books. Ernest's will unfold in weeks, while mine might take two or three months max. posting twice a week.

as a reader, one of the things I really hate is when a story advertises a code, but that refers to something that isn't posted yet.

That's hard for those of us who finish a story and then post chapters every few days. When the story is done, the codes are determined and all listed when the first chapter is posted. We'd have to keep track of codes by chapter.

My guess is it means the author has no idea where the story will go so he will add appropriate story codes if necessary.

It seems to be that both you (Switch) and Ernest have included 'hidden' codes in your stories because you were afraid it would reveal story elements you'd wanted to keep concealed until the 'big reveal' moment.

In one story of mine, I never revealed the (inc) code because I was never sure whether the characters would continue merely teasing each other, or whether it might evolved into actual sex (it did, but only in a later book). Leaving it off of the initial story helped include readers, who ultimately enjoyed the story, who may have been put off the story if I'd included it. For those who did, the eventual reveal didn't upset nearly as many who'd have avoided the story entirely. (I got NO complaints about the sequence, so I'm guessing that those enjoyed the story considered it to ultimately be a minor story element).

It seems to be that both you (Switch) and Ernest have included 'hidden' codes in your stories because you were afraid it would reveal story elements you'd wanted to keep concealed until the 'big reveal' moment.

Sorry, CW, Switch may have hidden codes, but always code for every code that's relevant and on the list at the time of posting. I have had to go back and add codes which were added to the list after I posted the story, but that's all.

This was my original question and I'm really interested in hearing author's opinions on it.

The codes will be updated/added phrase is quite common on SOL. If there's one specific occurrence which is bothering you, why not e-mail the author and ask directly.

AJ

The codes will be updated/added phrase is quite common on SOL. If there's one specific occurrence which is bothering you, why not e-mail the author and ask directly.

The whole thing about 'adding codes' mid-story started from authors who began by writing for ASSTR, where the codes describe each chapter, not the story in general. Since I finish the entire story before posting, I list the codes for the entire story (though, as I've already stated, I held off on including the "incest" tag until the characters actually consummated their relationship, as it was an open-ended question (mostly teasing) before that. However, anyone squicked by incest would have abandoned ship long before them.

The whole thing about 'adding codes' mid-story started from authors who began by writing for ASSTR

I believe the whole concept of story codes came from ASSTR. Even the original list of codes.

Would anyone consider that an inadequate warning for readers?

That depends on the scene.

Ditto. If the scene wasn't that detailed, simply handled humorously, then I wouldn't be bothered. However, if it was a full-blown graphic rape scene, I'd be plenty pissed.

Would anyone consider that an inadequate warning for readers?

Possibly. To some readers, any sort of rape is so repugnant that they'd want to be warned before they even started the story.

AJ

I will reassure them the chapter concerned will have an explicit warning and say I believe few who had read the story up to that point would be offended by the scene.

Rape is largely like the various racial codes. If it's not graphic, it's really not worth coding for, as those scenes are an attraction for certain readers, and a squick for others. But if you're merely describing a scenario, which you don't fully explore, I'd leave it as it. But again, that depends upon the scene/chapter itself, so it's hard for us to judge not having seen it.

Possibly. To some readers, any sort of rape is so repugnant that they'd want to be warned before they even started the story.

To give you an idea of the 'squick effect', when I was in college, in my first 'official' relationship, it effectively ended when my gf decided to stage a 'play rape' fantasy. I was so taken aback, having never imagined rape being a sexual turn-on, that I promptly lost all vestiges of an erection. She carries a grudge against me to this very day!

Ahh, those more 'innocent' days when we didn't all know each other's hidden darker sides.

To me that would be perfectly acceptable. Although you might want to add 2 lines to the chapter as well. A line to tell the reader where the scene begins and a line to let them know where the scene ends. The first line lets the reader know where they can begin to skip over the scene. It does help if the start and end are easily identified. Most browsers will let the reader scan for a given phrase. That scan can be utilized to skip to the end of the scene.

That's when you start writing 'detachable' content. If a reader would lose nothing by skipping a particular scene (such as a sex scene with no actual dialogue other than moans) then why include it in the first place if it's not necessary to the story.

Either something is well-written, and therefore belongs in the story, or it doesn't. If someone skips an important scene, they can't legitimately complain when they lose track of what's happening in the story.

I've read too many stories where a relationship progresses in a story, and then the story stops cold, the character hump each other like mad, never showing any hint of their personalities, and once done, the story resumes as if no interruption had occurred. I have NO interest in such scenes.

I am not sure if detachable applies. I have major problems with some things, which I can handle as referenced actions but cause major flashback problems when the action is detailed.

I use "detachable" because I have that specific problem. If it keep sex scenes focused exclusively on the sex acts, I lose interest quickly and end up deleting the entire passage as 'adding nothing to the basic story'.

It's not that I don't see the value in building character relations, or developing the characters, but if it's 'detached' from the rest of the story, it's difficult for me to keep it in the overall story at all.

Those writers who post a story as it is written by chapters or parts should code as much as possible based on the planned story. But all plans are subject to change. The beginning and end might go as planned. But the path between the two might be totally different.

What's more, if an author writes a chapter at a time in a 'never-ending' story, the story is more likely to venture into unplanned territory (see my example of the 150+ chapter story having to explore a Mm scene with an abused child from early in the story in the later chapters).

Thus, an 'unplanned' story is more likely to produce unexpected codes than one that's both planned and 'pruned'.

I believe even you have stated that some things changed in your stories from the original plans. Yet you have an advantage as you only post FINISHED stories instead of posting as you write and/or edit the story. That lets you code the entire story without code changes being needed except for new codes which become available after posting a story.

Exactly, which is precisely WHY I like finishing stories before I post anything. I get a chance to work out the 'rough edges' like that before I release the story.

That's also why it's often easy to 'pile on' about the writers of 'post as you go' stories, as they tend to have a specific subset of problems the rest of us typically don't face (as often). Since it saves us that aggravation, we tend to criticize anyone who encounters those problems, rather than helping them correct them when they do occur. :(

That's four-shadowing. :)

Foreshadowing is when you whack the golf ball with your driver and you just know it's going to hit someone. :)

AJ

Okay, this is me asking...

AJ

Thank you but I took it for granted that the poster would know that I was familiar with Groundhog Day and that I was asking for an explanation of why Barcelonans are too intelligent to celebrate it.

Perhaps it's me grasping the wrong end of the stick :(

AJ

Most of the US population is too intelligent to really celebrate Groundhog day.

Most of the US population also knows that there's no such thing as Santa, but that doesn't stop us from pretending there is and dumping presents on our unsuspecting kids.

Groundhog day IS an incredibly stupid holiday, but it's so ciche that it's actually fun celebrating precisely because it is so stupid!

why Barcelonans are too intelligent to celebrate it.

To most Americans, it is an annual event where we make fun of a ridiculous belief by turning it into an official event. Perhaps Barcelonans don't have a sense of self-depreciating humor. :)

Just using the term prior posters used.

I googled what to call the inhabitants of Barcelona in English. To me, Barcelonans seemed a marginally better alternative than Barcelonians.

AJ

you show an perfectly acceptable European attitude towards our southern brethren

Be careful. We Americans may lose track of the thread and think you are talking about south of our border. :)

And next you'll warn me that touching a hot oven might burn my fingers.

Depends who's touching the oven. ;)

AJ

Depends who's touching the oven. ;)

Or who's pushing who's forehead against the hot stove?

Perhaps Barcelonans don't have a sense of self-depreciating humor.

Spain is one of the ClubMed countries that 'tweaked' their economic data to gain entry to the Euro, and since then its economy has regressed rather than progressed. Tourism is a large contributor to the Spanish economy, so now it's peak holiday season what are the Barcelonans doing? Interpreting the new Schengen security protocols pedantically without providing adequate airport security staff, and now what few security staff there are are going on strike.

Is there intelligent life in Barcelona?

AJ

Is there intelligent life in Barcelona?

Are you looking amongst the vocal minority or the silent majority? :)

What you describe sounds like you are searching amongst a group of politicians. No chance looking there.

A groundhog, also known as a woodchuck is a large rodent (4 to 9 pounds) native to North America.

Learn something new everyday.

Groundhog Day.

I thought ground hog day is the holiday where you use a meat grinder to turn all your excess hogs into mincemeat for making pork sausages and the like!

I thought ground hog day is the holiday where you use a meat grinder to turn all your excess hogs into mincemeat for making pork sausages and the like!

Nah. I make all my own sausage, bacon, etc. and I don't have a particular single day. Definitely not a holiday. That's work! (fun, but work.) http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/266583/lightbox/post/1738679/id/537592

Nah. I make all my own sausage, bacon, etc. and I don't have a particular single day.

Well, in the USA they have dedicated days for just about everything under the sun, I just thought this one was set aside for grinding up hogs, that's all.

;^P

and you just know it's going to hit someone. :)

Nah. It is only foreshadowing if your prediction comes true. :)

I do not want to use the same term for one thing that's generally considered an often-useful literary device (hinting at events to come) and another generally considered poor writing (telling what events will come).

If 'foreshadowing' is to mean both to us here we should toss the damn word away and find two new words for two very different concepts.

Once again, "foretelling" is simply another (unnecessary) term for 'author intrusion', which is separate and distinct from foreshadowing.

In your example, REP, in a spotlight, foreshadowing is bad because there's little doubt what will happen, but in a darkly lit studio, with multiple dim lights, the shadows are indistinct. In this case, the various lights cast either foreshadows, red-herrings, or completely immaterial elements which never develop into anything. In essence, foreshadowing is messing with the readers mind, trying to plant ideas without telling them what's going to happen, merely suggesting what might, so that when it does happen, the reader can make sense of it.

For example, if the protagonist solves the climax with a wad of gum she takes out of her mouth, it is jarring if she suddenly happens to have gum in her mouth.

I would consider that to be an example of 'deus ex machina' :(

Wikipedia (spit) article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

AJ

On the other hand, if we have that foreshadowing, it's far more satisfying when that little detail ends up being important.

I'd word that as being relevant because it can be relevant and not important.

Story spoiler alert warning.

In my story Darmore Demon an early thought by the main character's mother is on her giving up on teaching her daughter how to cook or having her go to university, due to the girl's interest in being a soldier. At that point it's the type of throw away line you expect a mother to have about her daughter's odd career choice - but at the end of the story the girl is invalided out of the military and goes to university to become a chef. Some would call it foreshadowing, some would call it adding a twist