Forum: Author Hangout

So, tell your readers what VFW is the first time you use it.

That's what I did in my novel "Last Kiss," but now that I'm thinking about it I wonder if it could have been done more subtly. This is what I have:

"I have contacts at the FBI's VCAV," Mrs. Wayne said. "I'll give them a call tomorrow."

"What's that?"

"It stands for Violent Crimes Against Children. Some of the programs I'm involved in to help abused children get involved with them. I'll call them first thing in the morning."

I could have left out the "It stands for Violent Crimes Against Children." Why spell it out? The important thing is that it's an agency that helps abused children and part of the FBI. If the reader wants to know what those letters stand for they could Google it.

I could have left out the "It stands for Violent Crimes Against Children." Why spell it out? The important thing is that it's an agency that helps abused children and part of the FBI. If the reader wants to know what those letters stand for they could Google it.

I don't think it's excessive and I don't really want to have to take time out to look up something unless it's really compelling. I'd leave it in.

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Nit at all, unless they've come across it before and had it explained. Best to list it in full first time, then go with the initials.

Alas, I was hoping to go for effect. Since they have a young child with them, unfamiliar with such places, I wanted to play her innocence against the whole 'anger management' issues in order to flesh it out via dialogue. I may have to rethink the entire opening scene, explaining the whole 'anger management issues' before they ever arrive.

Update: Not that hard, after all:

"So where are we heading?" Abe asked, glancing around the unfamiliar neighborhood.

Phil led them across the street. "Somewhere to find allies unlikely to shoot us."

"A VFW?"

"VF who?" Meg asked.

"Veterans of Foreign Wars," Phil explained. "Cops and criminals carry guns. Here, people with anger issues come to commiserate with others in a safe environment."

Though it may change the dialogue once inside, as I planned to use the Meg's naitivity to explore her perceptions of veterans with a few humorous comments.

"So where are we heading?" Abe asked, glancing around the unfamiliar neighborhood.

Phil led them across the street. "Somewhere to find allies unlikely to shoot us."

"A VFW?"

"VF who?" Meg asked.

"Veterans of Foreign Wars," Phil explained. "Cops and criminals carry guns. Here, people with anger issues come to commiserate with others in a safe environment."

Exactly, greatly improved, although I don't understand the "cops and criminals" reference, but I assume your subsequent dialogue will explain that.

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Exactly, greatly improved, although I don't understand the "cops and criminals" reference, but I assume your subsequent dialogue will explain that.

Actually, the previous book and other chapters fleshed this idea out. Basically, the MC has had trouble with these groups, and is now seeking a safer alternative from confronting someone who's armed to the teeth.

Claiming that veterans who are members of a VFW post have 'anger issues' is not factual. I've been around the VFW all my life in locations worldwide and can say I've seen more 'anger issues' from supposed 'peace organizations' than from the VFW.

I didn't mean to cast aspersions, but between book 1 and book 2 in this series, I expanded PTSD and 'anger' into two different disorders needing treatment, thus the character is trying to select them from a safer environment. By no means are ALL veterans angry, but there are still enough who are, or who suffer from PTSD, that's it's not uncommon to find one or two in most halls.

Sorry, but the way I read the original post, it struck me as meaning that all VFW members had anger issues.

The context is clearer in the story, which has already established what the character is searching for, why, and the complications he faces, thus readers will already know what he's referring to.

For the PTSD cases, for many of them, that won't translate into an "anger issue." Instead it'll translate into them being "triggery" in which case seemingly innocuous things to you may "set them off" and either cause them to flip out and do serious (potentially lethal) bodily harm to anyone near them, or alternately, turn them into a quivering heap of emotional distress.

That's where it gets 'tricky' in my story. In the first book, I just had 'anger issues' affecting the cops harassing my main character, but in the second I created a separate category for PTSD cases, but the scene in the VFW doesn't impact them, so I had to sidestep that issue.

It's difficult to explain without including the whole premise of the story, which is premature at this point.

Also, a quivering mass (unless it features a sympathetic romantic interest) isn't as dramatic as homicidal rage. ;D As a result, there aren't many quivering individuals in this story.

I live in the US and have no idea what VFW means.

Veterans of Foreign Wars. Unless you've been taken to one, you'd be unlikely to be familiar with them, meaning most younger readers would be unfamiliar with them too (especially since the number of combat vets as a percentage of the population has never been lower than it is now).

Guess that answers my own question.

especially since the number of combat vets as a percentage

As far as I know, membership in VFW or the American Legion is not limited to combat veterans, although they and veterans in general form an ever decreasing percentage of the U.S. population, as you point out.

gg

As far as I know, membership in VFW or the American Legion is not limited to combat veterans, although they and veterans in general form an ever decreasing percentage of the U.S. population, as you point out.

Sorry, I didn't mean 'combat veterans' as much as I meant we're now 'farming out' our military service jobs to minorities so the majority don't have to worry about service. All they have to do is wave a flag every 4th and they can feel good about what we do overseas since it doesn't impact them directly.

VFW doesn't require you to be a combat veteran, otherwise I wouldn't qualify. What it does require however, if that you must have been deployed to, or otherwise have been stationed at a (foreign) location that the DOD later designated as being essentially "a potential combat zone."

For my story, the protagonist is searching for people suffering from either 1) anger management issues, or 2) PTSD, as the story differentiates the two into two distinct classes.

If you're seeking someone with anger issues, you can try picking a fight with a gang member of a typical 'angry cop', or you can try to treat someone who's suffered the effects of war and hasn't completely recovered from it yet.

Obviously, it wouldn't do him any good to treat someone who'd been stationed behind a desk throughout various American conflicts.

Ah, the refuge for the Veterans who never went anywhere they were likely to be shot at from. :)

I sort of resemble that remark.

I was in during the early / mid '80's, 4 years Army National Guard and 3 years ROTC SMP. Was discharged in November so I could go active duty Navy (and mind you, passed the physical then), supposed to ship in January. Diagnosed with testicle cancer in December, couldn't ship because of major surgeries, and since technically I was discharged, they ruled me ineligible.

Still qualify as a Cold War Veteran - I raised my hand and gave Uncle Sammy the blank check just like everyone else. Just makes me wonder how my life would have been otherwise, as I had planned on making the military my career. (And no, it's probably not a good do-over story line that would be interesting to anyone but me.)

Just makes me wonder how my life would have been otherwise, as I had planned on making the military my career.

I'd planned to follow my family traditions and sign up for the U.S. Navel Academy (free college in exchange for a commission as a Navel officer). However, Juvenile (Type 1) diabetes intervened, making me ineligible. However, it wasn't long after that when my brother was court-martialed for being gay and started a lawsuit which overturned the existing anti-gay laws in the Supreme Court and my father was 'forced out' because he defended his son, so I haven't considered actually 'serving' in the military for a long time.

All-in-all, I'm glad I never served, as I can't imagine how my life would have unfolded if I had.

My grandfather, who was with the Big Red One in North Africa and Sicily, and my father, who did two tours as a radioman in Vietnam and earned a Bronze Star for events that he would never tell me about, and who were both in the Legion, would beg to differ.

As far as I know (I'm basically ignorant on the subject), but it seems to me that both are open to members of the military service during times of war, actual service overseas not being a specific requirement in either the VFW or the American Legion.

Never having gotten a VFW induction notice, though, I'm not up on the requirements.

"An American Legion hall?"

"An American Legion hall" doesn't really identify any more than the more generic VFW does (i.e. those who don't already know what a VFW aren't any more likely to know what the American Legion does. :(

You might need to explain what the VFW is too.
I've read this thread and the Wiki entry and still don't know what a VFW is like.
As an Australian, I imagine something like the RSL (Returned Services League), which has a clubhouse in most towns with a bar, restaurant, and poker machines.
My guess is a VFW is less like a pub, and more like the offices of a welfare organisation with an attached drop-in centre.

Nope, it sounds like it's exactly like the RSL, a social group for veterans to gather and commiserate among others from similar backgrounds. A sort of respite from the ignorant general populous.

I was hoping the "Veterans" part of the title would clue readers in to the function, though the follow-up dialogue makes it clear that its' a social club for U.S. veterans who fought or served during various wars.

About a decade ago I had to look into the history of some of the units in Australia, USA, and the UK and found that almost all settled down to one set of uniform rules and cross affiliated at some point. Following the end of WW2 some of the veterans associations had some issues due to their rules because you had ex-military who fit the groups below:

My sister is a prime candidate. As a researcher, she's restricted to major U.S. military hospitals (i.e. only located in Texas or Germany), and thus wasn't allowed to serve anywhere else, though no fault of her own, but based exclusively on her skills being in demand by those fighting in those wars.

The child of a friend of mine is in one of the Australian equivalents of the US Judge Advocate General's Office - they're reached a point where they're doing almost constant overseas postings to be the head of the legal unit near a combat zone, because there are so few who stay in the service long enough to reach that high a rank, and most modern combat commanders what a legal opinion on a lot of things before they approve some missions, now. The result is they never get near the actual shooting, but are moved from one combat zone posting to another combat zone posting every few years. In recent times they've spent more time in Iraq than in Australia, and more time in Afghanistan than Australia. The problem is there's only two positions at that rank within Australia, but they need someone at that rank with each major deployment force, thus there are more posts outside the country than in it, right now, and has been for many years.

It just shows how the duty can often dictate the posting. Technically they're a combat vet, but in many years of posts in war zones has not heard a shot or shell fired except in training. If the fighting gets near where they are, they're one of the first to be shipped out as an almost non-combatant, despite being in uniform.

Most places overseas where troops are stationed, there is a VFW. At one time, there were three on Okinawa. They usually employ the indigenous population as cooks waitpersons and bartenders. I think you can safely assume that wherever there are US troops, they will understand VFW.

Assuming they live near a U.S. base. As far as I recall, we have one major base in Germany, so does that mean everyone there would know what "VFW" stands for, or for that matter, would residents of Australia?

Still, you comment means it'll be more widely recognized—even in non-English speaking countries—than I feared.

so does that mean everyone there would know what "VFW" stands for, or for that matter, would residents of Australia?

I've worked with many US military over the years, and only ever came across the term VFW here at SoL. The one major US base here in Australia is way out in the boonies and hundreds of miles away from any decent sized civilian locations, so I doubt VFW is well known here at all.

Dollars to doughnuts if any former service personnel settle in Australia, they'll form an American Legion Post.

We've a heck of a lot of retired US military people here in Australia, and all of them I know, or have heard of, have joined the Australian equivalents like the RSL.

We've a heck of a lot of retired US military people here in Australia, and all of them I know, or have heard of, have joined the Australian equivalents like the RSL.

American Legion Post AU01 "Yanks Down Under" is in Sydney.

Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) Post 12163 is in Perth, Western Australia. Just formed May 2017.

When I lived in Sydney in the early 1990s there was a group of U.S. vets who were working on documenting every grave of U.S. Civil War veterans in New South Wales.

ETA: The leader (president, VP, chairman, or whatever he was) of the group resigned in disgrace when it was discovered he wasn't the Korean War vet he'd claimed to be.

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American Legion Post AU01 "Yanks Down Under" is in Sydney.

I see, from the website, it was organised the same year I moved out of Sydney - they must have been waiting for me to get out of the way.

I see, from the website, it was organised the same year I moved out of Sydney - they must have been waiting for me to get out of the way.

They had a limited number of seats at the bar and couldn't afford to have you nursing one beer all day.

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The leader (president, VP, chairman, or whatever he was) of the group resigned in disgrace when it was discovered he wasn't the Korean War vet he'd claimed to be.

We have a lot of people like that in this country. They claim to have been awarded decorations they never earned. They claim to have been members of the military, when they weren't.

My brother-in-law, persona non grata in my household, keeps telling people he served in Vietnam as an Army Ranger lieutenant. The truth is he was never in the military. He has lost a lot of friends when they learn the truth about his claims, but he keeps telling his lies. He is a very good liar, and if you don't know the facts, he is very believable. He also has a number of mental and emotional issues that have aided him in destroying his life. People like him deserve what they get.

He is a very good liar, and if you don't know the facts, he is very believable.

I have a brother-in-law who is the opposite. He's an entomologist ("bug guy" is the term of art) plus amateur this and amateur that. As my younger daughter told us years ago when she returned from a visit with my sister and him, "George knows EVERYTHING."

When you're ten or eleven years old many adults might appear so to you, but in George's case it's always true.

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When you're ten or eleven years old many adults might appear so to you, but in George's case it's always true.

But then, when you're an entomologist, does it really matter whether your lying or telling the truth? After all, you're still just dealing with bugs. 'D It's hardly the same as "I led the charge up San Juan Hill leading 200 men!"

It's hardly the same as "I led the charge up San Juan Hill leading 200 men!"

Not if you did it with giant upholstered spiders* it isn't.

*Magic for Beginners, by Kelly Link. Very bizarre. Very good. Upholstered spiders, not to be missed.

ETA: Besides, there's always going to be some dork around who says, "Yeah, and I did it with 125 men!"

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We have a lot of people like that in this country. They claim to have been awarded decorations they never earned. They claim to have been members of the military, when they weren't.

Yep. Stolen valor.

People tend to not do that too much around here. It helps having a large population that either did serve or have members of their families that served. Pull that crap here and you won't lose friends, you'll lose teeth.

Tell you one thing, too. I used to wear my U.S. Army hat in Indiana, no big deal. No one said anything. I wear it or my Cold War Veteran anywhere in this state (Oklahoma) and at some point during the day someone will come up to me and say thank you. First few times it happened I just didn't know what to do or say. Now I respond with you're welcome and thank you for your support.

Anyone else on here do BCT or AIT at Fort McClellan? I was there from September of '81 till May of '82.

Yeah, I personally avoid the obvious veteran self-identification stuff at this point for pretty much that reason. Like many of my fellow veterans "I didn't do (much of) anything." So I'll let someone else(preferably someone who did do "something" ) field it instead.

I blame my wife. She also served, and will sometimes wear her USAF veteran shirt (nurse, Air Rescue), but people don't approach a woman. So I wear mine. It also gives her family something to talk about, since I was Army and they were ALL Air Force with a couple of Navy in there.

Now if only it wasn't such a hassle to sort out the documentation to do so.

Tell me about it. I've sent in a request for a copy of my DD-214 three times over the last few years. Never heard back any of them.

Anyone else on here do BCT or AIT at Fort McClellan? I was there from September of '81 till May of '82.

I live near Norfolk, VA (the East Coast port for the U.S. Navy), and it's similar, but the 'fake valor', where those who never served pose as veterans has even reached the various veteran communities, so it's nothing to sneeze at. Now, those agencies are working to check everyone they vet (or appoint to office) for fear of another embarrassing scandal. There's no better way to shrink a veteran's group membership then to appoint a spokesman who never served a day in the field, yet claims national attention by speaking for all those who did.

Fascinating. So do I.

We should get together sometime. I head up that way at least once a month, just to stock up on the basics, though it's a two-hour drive each way.

By definition all wars unless civil are foreign wars.

My understanding is, when they set up the VFW they were only looking for those who served in combat zones outside of the USA. Thus those still around from the War Between the States (and there were a few) and the various 10th Century conflicts in the USA wouldn't qualify. Nor would those who never left the country, and it would also exclude those on the ground in Hawaii during WW2 , but that was later.

I disagree, if the enemy is a foreign state attacking US territory, it is a foreign war, no matter where you served.

I wasn't at the meeting to start the organisation, but from what i read about it when they set it up it was to accept only those who served in the main US military who fought on foreign soil. Thus those involved in combat on US soil didn't qualify - regardless of who they were fighting. I didn't see anything about how they may or may not have regarded the territories in that. Another section of fighting to keep in mind is what happened in the Aleutian Islands during WW2, US soil with real fighting.

When it was formed in 1899 most of the wars the US had engaged in were within the US.

Even in those cases, at the time of the combat, they weren't a part of the country (though we annexed them later.

This is a good example of a fake news website.

As against certain sites and stations that provide fake news slanted their way while claiming to be unbiased reporters calling their fake news real.