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Is, or should this be allowed under posting rules?

EzzyB
Updated:

There was a great pedophilia debate years ago. I argued the site use the definition of pedo from the American Psychiatric Association which is sexual relations between and adult and a pre-pubescent.

Mind you, if you weren't there for that debate, there was a literal storm of postings at the time, mostly from one author, with absolutely garbage pedo stories. At least one a day. Pretty much everyone agreed something had to be done to keep SOL from becoming a pedo-site, me certainly included.

So I lost that debate, for one really obvious reason, authors were going to move back "puberty" to ridiculous ages and the site would have to police that. Thus the 14-year-old rule was born (I argued for 13 knowing the "puberty" thing would never work.)

Of course now I have a problem. Yes, Anita. She would be 13 now, and if you know her like I know her, there is absolutely zero possibility she won't be involved in some kind of sexual situation soon. I mean, it's Anita after all. I actually re-wrote a blog-post turning a groping session into just a kiss to try and not break the rules.

Then again, it's Anita, she's not going to let me get away with that for long.

The rules DO allow for stories that were posted before the rule change, but I think if I follow the letter-of-the-law it wouldn't allow anything even for a established character in an existing series to even be nude.

But it's Anita, and she's gonna do what she's gonna do. It's not that I can control the little minx.

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?

Ross at Play
Updated:

@EzzyB

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?

I suggest you delete your post here (somewhere public) and send a private email to Lazeez.

Personally, I think it would be valid to argue the same "tale" may be continuing even if posted as another "book" within the same universe.

Ezzy
Updated:

I suggest you delete your post here (somewhere public) and send a private email to Lazeez.

Personally, I think it would be valid to argue the same "tale" may be continuing even if posted as another "book" within the same universe.


I respectfully disagree. I have a good relationship with Lazeez. Hell I'm the only one who even knows what his name means.

SOL is a community. Maybe, or maybe not, Laz would do it. But I think the decision should have input from all of the authors. He does rely upon them for the content of the site.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ernest Bywater

G'day Ezzy,

The actual wording of the rule is:

Age restrictions: Your work (stories, poems or blog entries) may not contain characters younger than 14 having sex or being in sexual situations (masturbation and nudism are not allowed). In other words, all characters that engage in any sexual activity must be 14 or older. (Stories posted before September 2011 are not subject to this rule, including new chapters to stories that were in-progress when this rule came into effect.)

To stay within the rules all you need to do is the text equivalent of a Fade to Black before the fun starts, and not give a graphic description of the sexual events. You could get by with them disappearing into a bedroom, and the cut to them leaving the room later or the next morning. That way you don't violate the rule.

I'm doing the same with a revision of a story so it can be posted on Fine Stories.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ross at Play

@Ezzy

I respect the principle you stated. I'd be content if Lazeez made a judgement call in this case.
I see an author who has supported the spirit of the site guidelines. I think their case is valid, but fear what others may attempt if it set a precedent.

Replies:   Ezzy
Bondi Beach

@EzzyB

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?


Ask for a clarification of the rule, i.e., does the grandfather clause apply to a book in a universe or series started before the rule came into effect.

Exceptions are poison to all of us, but it's the site owner's call. Surely some form of "fade to black" as Ernest suggests would save the story.

Do we really have to see every detail of the minx enjoying herself this time? (And I speak as one who would answer "Yes!" to that question, unless it means the story cannot be posted at all.)

bb

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Bondi Beach

I would add that I don't want to think of him being arrested and the site being shut down by some legal agency. Hopefully what ever decision is made will take those risk factors into consideration. Where would we find another site which is half as good for readers or writers?

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@docholladay

Second that.

bb

Replies:   EzzyB
EzzyB
Updated:

@Bondi Beach


I would add that I don't want to think of him being arrested and the site being shut down by some legal agency.


I don't think that is a consideration. The current rules are a case of "you have to draw the line somewhere". I don't precisely agree where the line was drawn, but never opposed it's drawing if that makes sense.

There are many, many legal precedents even where I live. A very famous case recently concluded where absolute child pornography was deemed not "pornographic" (stories from ASSTR) in Macon, GA. The oh-so-backwards place of my birth.

I'm currently reading John Ringo's Paladin of Shadows series of books. They would come very close to running afoul of SOL's rules if they didn't outright. Two books to go, but there is still a 12 and 13-year-old in the harem. If the MC walks into a room and finds them nude, it wouldn't be allowed here.

Child porn laws (most certainly international treaties to combat it) stop when there is no real child involved.

I have a verb called "literoticize" for stories that shoehorn age in erotic stories (think 18-year-old high-school freshmen and you've read one). I won't do that, it's silly and blows suspension-of-disbelief right out of the water.

Lumpy

I thoguht that that Laz may be in Canada though, where they have passed significantly stronger laws in this area than exist in the US.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Ezzy
docholladay

It wouldn't be the first time someone got arrested on a trip. They might be safe where they lived but when traveling or visiting another place it was an entirely different story. So its a matter of self defense or in this case defending something we all enjoy.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
docholladay

@EzzyB

Child porn laws (most certainly international treaties to combat it) stop when there is no real child involved.


Trouble here is that if you are accused, you are automatically considered guilty and instead of the police and prosecutors having to prove you are guilty. You have to prove you are innocent instead. Talk about a big difference.

Replies:   Ezzy
Bondi Beach

@EzzyB

Child porn laws (most certainly international treaties to combat it) stop when there is no real child involved.


If I remember correctly even drawings or other non-photographic depictions of a fictional underage child in sexual situations are considered pornographic under U.S. law.

Written descriptions, as we've discussed any number of times before, are protected by the First Amendment, although commercial outlets almost universally ban any depictions, written or visual, of sexual activity by under-18s.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@EzzyB

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?


The rule exception applies according to a story's date. So if it's a new story in a series, then the age rules apply.

Best to keep the action off-screen in those cases if you must.

Lumpy

@Bondi Beach

This is, of course, not true of the UK and Canada, where written or drawn depictions are very specifically against the law.

REP

@EzzyB

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?


Try an automobile accident that puts her into a coma for a year. :)

StarFleet Carl

@EzzyB

I'm currently reading John Ringo's Paladin of Shadows series of books. They would come very close to running afoul of SOL's rules if they didn't outright. Two books to go, but there is still a 12 and 13-year-old in the harem. If the MC walks into a room and finds them nude, it wouldn't be allowed here.


FYI, Tiger by the Tail was Ghost written. (Yeah, couldn't resist the pun.) And while it captures the gist of the rest of the books, IMHO John shouldn't have let Ryan Sear anywhere near his series.

I may be a bit of a John Ringo fan. I just double checked his bibliography ... and yeah, I DO have a copy of every single book he's ever written.

As a good military read that could have come true, read The Last Centurion.

Replies:   Lumpy
Ernest Bywater

@EzzyB

I don't think that is a consideration. The current rules are a case of "you have to draw the line somewhere". I don't precisely agree where the line was drawn, but never opposed it's drawing if that makes sense.


Lazeez and SoL are based on Ontario, Canada and the age limit was introduced to changes in Canadian Laws on the subject. So I doubt Lazeez has much room to be flexible on the subject.

Replies:   Lumpy
Lumpy

@StarFleet Carl

FYI, Tiger by the Tail was Ghost written.


I didn't realize this, but I should have. Tiger by the Tail was magnitudes worse than the rest of the series. I didn't pay attention, I just thought Ringo had lost his touch.

Lumpy

@Ernest Bywater

I thought I had heard he was in Canada. In that case, the law is pretty clear, with a lot less open area for text & drawing than the US. They made it specifically illegal.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

To stay within the rules all you need to do is the text equivalent of a Fade to Black before the fun starts, and not give a graphic description of the sexual events. You could get by with them disappearing into a bedroom, and the cut to them leaving the room later or the next morning. That way you don't violate the rule.

You're also free to have characters discussing the act, as long as it's not considered 'salacious' (i.e. they talk about what it meant, rather than talking about the sex acts themselves).

Also, the '14' rule wasn't an 'author' or a decision by Lazeez, but rather a Canadian law which could have been used to crucify Lazeez if anyone posted a story which violated it. Thus it's unfair of him to request an 'exemption' which might shut down the entire site and send the owner to prison for years.

Temper the story, regardless of what you feel the 'character' might do. Like any successful author, figure out how to operate within limitations, rather than burning down the entire house!

Crumbly Writer

@EzzyB

I don't think that is a consideration. The current rules are a case of "you have to draw the line somewhere". I don't precisely agree where the line was drawn, but never opposed it's drawing if that makes sense.

Nope! The rules are clear. "ANY" written text involving descriptions of ANYONE under the age of 16 (not 14) is criminally punishable under the Canadian sex crime law (meaning Lazeez could be labeled as a pedophile for the rest of his life!). That applies to "true" stories written by people abused as children, even those written as part of therapy (a common treatment and many of those writing those types of tales (but certainly not all) suffered exactly those types of attacks—it's often a way of processing the actions in their later lives.

Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

Written descriptions, as we've discussed any number of times before, are protected by the First Amendment, although commercial outlets almost universally ban any depictions, written or visual, of sexual activity by under-18s.

Only in the U.S., and that's a Constitutional protection, meaning it won't stop prosecutors from charging you, or from you spending years in jail waiting for the appeals process, only to have the Supreme refuse to even hear the case.

But few countries offer even that much protection, and both Canada and Australia passed extremely restrictive laws considering descriptions of sex. (Not only can authors and site owners be prosecuted, but in Australia, so can readers!)

ASSTR survives because it's a wholly owned American site, but any state prosecutor, trying to garner national attention, can easily charge any author on the site they want, and it'll easily cost tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to clear you good name.

Capt. Zapp

@EzzyB

(think 18-year-old high-school freshmen and you've read one).


I remember there being a 21 year old freshman when I was in HS. This was back before the 'move them along - everybody passes' mentality. It does stretch SOB but it did happen.

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

If I remember correctly even drawings or other non-photographic depictions of a fictional underage child in sexual situations are considered pornographic under U.S. law.


Nope. Back in the early 2000s, Congress tried to expand child pornography laws in the US to include such "virtual" child porn.

However, SCOTUS (supreme court of the United States) only allowed a first amendment exception for real child porn because of the harm done to the real children used to make it. SCOTUS ruled the "virtual" child porn ban was unconstitutional only a
couple of years after it was originally passed.

Replies:   Lumpy
Lumpy

@Dominions Son

There have still been people successfully convicted on state obscenity laws for possessing drawn depictions since that SCOTUS ruling.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Lumpy

There have still been people successfully convicted on state obscenity laws for possessing drawn depictions since that SCOTUS ruling.


True, there have also been some obscenity convictions for child sex stories.

However, those state obscenity laws carry much lower penalties than a Federal child porn conviction.

I've look at a few of those cases. Most of the cases I looked at, both stories and art, were not simple depictions of underage nudity or sex. The materials in question in nearly all of the cases I have looked into are described as depicting the violent rape and / or torture of prepubescent children. We aren't talking about high school freshmen, but kids as young as 5.

Not_a_ID

@Lumpy

I thoguht that that Laz may be in Canada though, where they have passed significantly stronger laws in this area than exist in the US.


...And the canadian law, IIRC from earlier discussions on it in here and elsewhere, includes "fictional portrayals" (specifically targeting CG porn, as photoshop and other tools had already reached the point that only a detailed analysis would be able to tell the difference) and doesn't distinguish between text and images. Even going so far as to technically extend all the way up to 18 if I heard right, although enforcement beyond the 13/14 YO point highly is unlikely on the text-only side.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

...And the canadian law, IIRC from earlier discussions on it in here and elsewhere, includes "fictional portrayals" (specifically targeting CG porn, as photoshop and other tools had already reached the point that only a detailed analysis would be able to tell the difference) and doesn't distinguish between text and images. Even going so far as to technically extend all the way up to 18 if I heard right, although enforcement beyond the 13/14 YO point highly is unlikely on the text-only side.

No, I made that mistake too, but was corrected by Laz. The law stipulates 16, but he extended it to 14, assuming no politician would take the chance to pushing for a conviction for something that minimal.

However, if they float a couple cases through the court first, firmly establishing the law, then they might continue testing the waters, just to see what they can get away with. So far, as much as I'm aware of anyway, there haven't been any test cases—which hints that the politicians and District Attorneys (do they use those in Canadian law?) aren't confident the law will hold up in the courts.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@docholladay

It wouldn't be the first time someone got arrested on a trip. They might be safe where they lived but when traveling or visiting another place it was an entirely different story. So its a matter of self defense or in this case defending something we all enjoy.


I escaped, and kept my stuff, but when crossing into Canada on one occasion they flagged me for "special attention" and went through all of my stuff. Which included a laptop that I'd forgotten had a small collection of hentai on it(prior to learning of the inspection), as well as some other porn on it. I was up front about there being porn on the thing, and that some of the hentai might push the boundaries a bit.

Sure enough, the customs officer took exception to a handful of the hentai images and forwarded them on to the RCMP and some of the local prosecutor's office for review, but I was only warned and then cut lose after 2 hours. Haven't heard back from them since, and the border people haven'y hassled me much since then either. But that did trigger a new "clean" computer being obtained for border crossings, and left me slightly twitchy for the next year every time I crossed.

(They didn't tell me which ones they found objectionable, but after reviewing the content that was there, I think it was a couple pages in a larger downloaded collection that had some 200 pages in it--so obviously it was not the focus, that and "the really underaged" involved in that specific case were the aggressors and kept their clothes on?)

But yeah. Not much fun to be had there, in a certain parts of Canada they probably have a file on me as a potential pedophile suspect. Which they may or may not have shared back across the border via Interpol. At least I haven't been prosecuted, yet. But then, such investigations can take years, so while I don't think I've done anything to warrant prosecution, for all I know I might cross 4 years from now and discover they suddenly have an arrest warrant pending for me.

But based on my understanding of Canadian jurisprudence, I highly doubt they'd want to risk a prosecution, as it could likely result in the law being overturned as they'd have to demonstrate how enforcing the law in that way would protect the population from some kind of harm.

As it is, it makes a good lever for them to use in order to get to the actually harmful stuff(by catching/flagging people), which is what they should be going after, even if it does create a bunch of "false positives" as well in the process. Just so long as they realize that's something that is going to happen with that method.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

However, if they float a couple cases through the court first, firmly establishing the law, then they might continue testing the waters, just to see what they can get away with. So far, as much as I'm aware of anyway, there haven't been any test cases—which hints that the politicians and District Attorneys (do they use those in Canadian law?) aren't confident the law will hold up in the courts.


I'm generally agreed on that, just based on what I've read regarding top-freedom in Ontario specifically, and a few other aspects of the Canadian courts. When the law itself comes under challenge, evidently they'll often evaluate it on a "harm basis" which is how the top-freedom case was won in Ontario. The Crown's Prosecution office failed to demonstrate who(if anyone) was being harmed by the sight a woman's bared breasts, so thus the law was struck down.

So on that precedent alone, trying to prosecute someone for possession of material that can easily be determined to be fictional in nature is going to set the bar pretty high for the Prosecutor to try to clear it. They're going to need to have someone who is particularly blatant in all of the right wrong ways in order to even hope to get a viable test case past that hurdle in order to establish a precedent.

Which basically means that law exists as I previously outlined, it's a tool they can use to establish "cause" for investigating the activities of a specific individual more closely. In other words, IF they get prosecuted for something, it will probably be something other than that law specifically. Although that law may be cited as part of the chain of evidence that led to whatever else they uncovered.

Replies:   EzzyB
joyR

@EzzyB

So should I ask for an exception for this one character that was conceived and published before the rule change?


A while back I started restoring a 'Shelby', I drove it a couple of times once it was rebuilt but now I've got it upholstered and road legal, trouble is since I started work on it, they lowered the speed limit in my town. But it's a Shelby, and it's really fast, do you think it'd be ok to speed through my town, ignoring the new speed limit, because hey, it's a Shelby...

NO..!!

Replies:   Ezzy
KinkyWinks

I read through this but may have missed something. Is it totally an age thing? If you created a race of people who matured slowly and when they were 20, looked like they were 10 would it be the same problem? I don't plan to write a story like that but I am curious to know.

docholladay

@KinkyWinks

I would think its a matter of perception. To be on the safe side in the example you gave either go with the age or the description and write the story accordingly. Anything which might give the impression of a child would be definitely bad depending on the readers. A few might have an open mind, but the odds are extremely slim that would be the dominant viewpoint in a trial.

KinkyWinks

Perception is a powerful force but there are a lot of people that look much younger than their age and they are allowed the same age privileges as anyone else, drivers license, ect. Although they would be questioned because of their looks, if they are old enough they would still have a drivers license

StarFleet Carl

@KinkyWinks

Is it totally an age thing? If you created a race of people who matured slowly and when they were 20, looked like they were 10 would it be the same problem?


This discussion has been on here before. Heck, I even asked Lazeez about this due to an issue with my own story. When it's made clear that the person in the story having sex is well past the age in question - but they have the physical appearance of the age in question (and in this case my story, 10 years old was it) - the answer was to avoid the cliche' of the physical description of her body.

> Obviously the minimum age for anything sexual on the
> site in 14, due to assorted laws. If you're familiar
> with Skyrim, then you know Babette, the female vampire
> assassin, who is 300 years old. But was made a vampire
> when she was 10. Which would obviously put her under
> the age guidelines - except, again, she's 300 years old
> in the game.


Now, where the issue that YOU raise would cause issues is whether or not you're describing is whether you're talking about a society that has third generation prolong (go read Honor Harrington books if you don't get the reference) or literally doesn't mature due to genetics. In the HH universe, prolong recipients do end up going to school and maturing mentally even if their bodies don't. If you have a race that doesn't mature physically, then it's also possible that they don't mature mentally as well and thus would not necessarily have the mental capacity to make truly informed decision regarding sex.

Replies:   EzzyB
KinkyWinks

I did not say that they don't mature physically or mentally. I said when they are 20 they look like they are 10. At 20 they would be out of school and part of the work force, going to college, married, or where ever the story took them.
As I said, I don't plan to write such a story but the thought of people not looking old would be interesting.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Ezzy

@Lumpy

I thoguht that that Laz may be in Canada though, where they have passed significantly stronger laws in this area than exist in the US.


As far as I know Laz is Canadian. I have no idea where the servers are located. At one point they were in Virginia, but that may no longer be the case.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ezzy

@docholladay

Trouble here is that if you are accused, you are automatically considered guilty and instead of the police and prosecutors having to prove you are guilty. You have to prove you are innocent instead. Talk about a big difference.


You guys help me out here. There was a case in the last five years or so. The author was arrested in Michigan I believe. Extradited to Georgia. Tried and aquitted in Macon.

Set a pretty good precedent.

Pornography, in the US, is left to "local standards". If that guy was aquitted in Macon, GA ...

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Switch Blayde
EzzyB

@Not_a_ID

So on that precedent alone, trying to prosecute someone for possession of material that can easily be determined to be fictional in nature is going to set the bar pretty high


The one thing I've always wondered about was the "true" tag. If someone voluntarily tags a story as "true" and the actions within violate the law, does that then (in child porn laws) prove that a child was actually involved? It would be an interesting legal matter I think.

Replies:   Joe Long
Ezzy

@joyR

A while back I started restoring a 'Shelby', I drove it a couple of times once it was rebuilt but now I've got it upholstered and road legal, trouble is since I started work on it, they lowered the speed limit in my town. But it's a Shelby, and it's really fast, do you think it'd be ok to speed through my town, ignoring the new speed limit, because hey, it's a Shelby...


You never followed those speed limits and you know it! :p

EzzyB

@StarFleet Carl

I'm not the least bit interested in using gimmicks to skirt the rules. If I write it, and SOL doesn't want it, I'll just post it somewhere else.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
Ezzy

@Ross at Play

I respect the principle you stated. I'd be content if Lazeez made a judgement call in this case.
I see an author who has supported the spirit of the site guidelines. I think their case is valid, but fear what others may attempt if it set a precedent.


My problem is the character exists. She writes herself, I have very little say in it. She has her own motivations and her own drives. Trying to reel her in seems unnatural.

KinkyWinks

Hey Starfleet, can you imagine a group of 20 year old girls who looked 10, going to a topless beach and some mother seeing it thinks if it is ok for them, then her daughter should be able to come to the beach and starts a giant problem. I think it would create a lot of that type thing.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@KinkyWinks

Hey Starfleet, can you imagine a group of 20 year old girls who looked 10, going to a topless beach and some mother seeing it thinks if it is ok for them, then her daughter should be able to come to the beach and starts a giant problem. I think it would create a lot of that type thing.


Which leads to a slippery slope where everything is banned because someone for whom it is not legal might do it.

Lumpy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the posting rules about age, it specifically calls out the 20 year old who looks 10 idea and says that too is against the rules.

Crumbly Writer

@KinkyWinks

I read through this but may have missed something. Is it totally an age thing? If you created a race of people who matured slowly and when they were 20, looked like they were 10 would it be the same problem? I don't plan to write a story like that but I am curious to know.

This has already been discussed endlessly. The bottom line: if it walks, talks and fucks like a duck, it's a friggin' duck!

You can create whatever friggin' alternate universe you want, but if you describe someone as being underaged in a sexual situation, it'll get banned. There's no questions about that, as you're threatening the existence of the entire site simply in order to break the rules.

On the other hand, I did test the limits somewhat, early on, by including sex scenes where, instead of being involved, I had a group of children 'listening in' and making snide comments (in an effort to demonstrate they knew what the adults were doing and wanted to be recognized as 'adults' in a new post-apocalyptic world).

It worked, primarily because the kids were NOT involved sexually, and their involvement was purely conversational. However, the result of my 'test' is that I've found very few female readers who can make it through my story (they can't get around pre-teen children taking an interest in sex).

Interesting lessons about life, but thoroughly beside the point. Bottom line: forget about 'gaming' the system!

Replies:   Joe Long
Crumbly Writer

@Ezzy

My problem is the character exists. She writes herself, I have very little say in it. She has her own motivations and her own drives. Trying to reel her in seems unnatural.

Then you've got no problem. Let her loose, let her do whatever the frig she wants, and then, during your revision process, edit out the physical descriptions of the sex acts themselves, leaving nothing but the after-the-fact (non-erotic) discussions of the events.

If that's not sufficient, then feel free to move the story to ASSTR, but if want to keep it on SOL (or self-publish anywhere) you must follow the law!

KinkyWinks

Crumbly, AS I SAID, I do not intend to write such a story so I am not gaming the system. However, I did see it as having some funny situations pop up.
I guess I was absent the day that it was discussed endlessly so I was not aware of it.

Joe Long

@KinkyWinks

I grew up and still live in an area of the country that very few people have moved in to in the last 150 years. The original settlers where British of German in the 1700's, then from central & eastern Europe in the 1800's.

We are a smaller people. We hit puberty earlier. It's like I just saw a commercial on TV and there's this woman standing next to her 14 year old self to give advice, and the 14 year old is only up to the adult self's shoulder. I'm thinking "WTF? That girl looks 10" because 99% of the 14 year olds I know around here are full grown. I got to my current height at 13 years and 10 months. Girls are a little sooner, and look to be full grown between 12 1/2 & 13 1/2. We also tend to be shorter by an inch or two on average. I'm 5-9 and there's more guys shorter than me than taller. Women average around 5-3.

That said, I totally understand legal prohibitions against adults having sex with teens, even if the teens are physically mature. However, I can personally quibble with politicians artificially setting a line at say the 18th birthday as if that magically confers emotional maturity & decision making on someone. We can see if someone is physically mature, but the emotional part is hidden. Someone may be mature at 13, others may still not be at 25. But we like everything in black and white even in a grey world.

On the other hand, we all know that teenagers have sex with each other all the time, even if there are laws, such as in California, that make any sex outside of marriage for people under 18 illegal.

While my story follows the age 14 limit for this site, it explores some of these issues. When I was that age there was little to no distinction between kids in high school and kids in college. We were kids, because we lived at home, were going to school, and some of us had part time jobs. A lot more in common than different. My MC is over 18, in college, but has no experience with girls. His love interest is 14, in 9th grade, who may be of similar emotional maturity but lacks experience in things like drinking & sex that she ends up being exposed to.

One summer I had just turned 21 and was dating a girl who was a few weeks shy of turning 16. I brought her home for dinner with my dad. He never said anything about her calendar age, but that he thought she was immature. Around that time he recommended a girl down the street whom he had taught the year before in 9th grade, as he thought she was quite mature & intelligent.

So yes I have sex in my story, but it's also a vehicle to explore our social attitudes.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Ezzy

Pornography, in the US, is left to "local standards". If that guy was aquitted in Macon, GA


It's left to local obscenity laws. Which does basically turn it into "local standards." However, the 1st Amendment would still be in play, so while they may be able to convict under that law, the law itself may fall to a legal challenge for its "chilling effect on freedom of speech."

But for an author to even hope for that defense to work, they're going to have to ensure the story has some kind of "culturally significant or redeeming value" so if the story/stories are nothing but sexual kink, you're probably screwed, even in the U.S.

Joe Long
Updated:

@EzzyB

I've taken dozens of real life anecdotes and woven them in with the fiction. In the scene I'm currently writing I'm taking the story of John Roberts Sr (father of the Chief Justice) as the backstory of the father of one of my characters. The two baseball players caught by their coach making a sandwich of some girl in the hotel? Actually happened. Giving a 14 year old a ride home from the beer party and having the host warn me not to try anything in the car? That too. But it would be near impossible to prove anything as all the characters are mixed and jumbled, as are the anecdotes with the fiction.

Not_a_ID

@KinkyWinks

I did not say that they don't mature physically or mentally. I said when they are 20 they look like they are 10.


The Canadian Law is pretty explicit on that front, even the portrayal of their being underage is grounds for prosecution, IIRC. That said, a clever author could probably work around that, but I'm not going to get into that.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
Joe Long

@Crumbly Writer

Diane Lane was 13 when she made her first movie, "A Little Romance" which also starred Laurence Olivier. Her dad was working in Paris where she meets this young scoundrel and they fall for each other. He sneaks her and his guy friend into a porno theater were they watch from the projectionist's booth, and she is quite shocked even if he thought it was very funny.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Bondi Beach

@Not_a_ID

But for an author to even hope for that defense to work, they're going to have to ensure the story has some kind of "culturally significant or redeeming value" so if the story/stories are nothing but sexual kink, you're probably screwed, even in the U.S.


In a porn film from the 70s I remember the character with a clipboard who would attempt to interview the actors as they were screwing each other, to establish the "redeeming social value" or whatever the standard was.

It wasn't a very good movie, even without the guy and his clipboard.

bb

Not_a_ID

@Joe Long

We are a smaller people. We hit puberty earlier. It's like I just saw a commercial on TV and there's this woman standing next to her 14 year old self to give advice, and the 14 year old is only up to the adult self's shoulder. I'm thinking "WTF? That girl looks 10" because 99% of the 14 year olds I know around here are full grown.

While it doesn't describe my community in general, it closely tracks my own family history. Only we got to be taller. I don't know exactly when I hit my final height, but I'm pretty sure it was in Junior High. I do remember my shirt size remained unchanged from Sixth Grade up into my early 20's though. Pants were another matter.

Although my family gets to enjoy another perk. We seem to physically mature earlier than most, but we also seem to almost paradoxically age slower than most as well. So while I(and my extended family) may have appeared to hit my 20's while in my teens. I still looked to be in my 20's after getting well into the 30's. My dad had (newer) co-workers that routinely mis-judged his age to the point of insisting he must be in his thirties while he was in his forties, and ultimately, that he must have been in his 40's while actually being in his 60's. I'm pretty sure it had become a running gag out there for them to not tell the newbies/transfers how old he was and see what age they'd eventually come up with for him before his ranking in the seniority list/length of employment started drawing attention.

Replies:   Joe Long
Ernest Bywater

@Ezzy

As far as I know Laz is Canadian. I have no idea where the servers are located. At one point they were in Virginia, but that may no longer be the case.


I don't know about the servers always being in Canada, but over the last ten years I've run a few route checks on them, and they've always turned up as being in Canada. However, he did recently say he changed server farm hosts and I don't know where they are. SoL is a WLPC company and it's based in Navan, Ontario, Canada which is part of the Ottawa extended urban area, and is subject to the laws of that location.

Joe Long

@Not_a_ID

Although I was speaking of a region of the state that likely includes more than a million people - basically the people I saw growing up. Every single day that I'm at WalMart or the grocery store or somewhere, I see multiple women under 5 foot. The 7th grade girls look 16. Once I became an adult and had contact with the outside world I learned this isn't the norm everywhere.

There's a married woman at church who's 21 or 22. Her husband's over 6 foot but she is 4-9 or 4-10. Not much boobs, but nice ass and face. From a distance I always confuse her with the 10 and 11 year olds. She is quite attractive and I wonder how he fits it in her.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Ross at Play

@Ezzy

My problem is the character exists. She writes herself, I have very little say in it. She has her own motivations and her own drives. Trying to reel her in seems unnatural.

I think that we completely agree.
I think these cirumstances should be allowed, but I won't argue if Lazeez says no.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Joe Long


Although I was speaking of a region of the state that likely includes more than a million people - basically the people I saw growing up. Every single day that I'm at WalMart or the grocery store or somewhere, I see multiple women under 5 foot. The 7th grade girls look 16. Once I became an adult and had contact with the outside world I learned this isn't the norm everywhere.


I grew up further west, and in the Mormon Colonization footprint, so a lot of (genetic) ethnic variety to be had even if the underlying culture didn't survive. And as most of the area was only starting to be settled in the late 19th Century, and many of the locals to where I lived having a more recent arrival to the area, not enough time for homogenization of the population to have happened there. So I can remember others hitting puberty about the same time, or even earlier than me(so before leaving grade school) while others took as long as after their entry into High School for it to finally kick in.

But as seems to be case where cross-ethnic/cross-racial pairings happen, "average appearance" for that area evidently would be considered anything but in many other parts of the country/world.

Switch Blayde

@Ezzy

Pornography, in the US, is left to "local standards".


I believe that's "obscenity" rather than pornography.

Switch Blayde

@Not_a_ID

However, the 1st Amendment would still be in play


That's where the Miller Test comes into play.

Switch Blayde

@Joe Long

Diane Lane was 13 when she made her first movie,


Let's not even talk about Hollywood. They can get away with almost anything.

I recently saw "Leon: the Professional" which is the original (Director's cut?) version of "The Professional."

Natalie Portman played a 12-yo girl. In real life she was either 12 or 13. I don't know how the censors let them get away with it. The clothes she wore were sexy if not trashy. No bra covered her little tits. There was a scene where she is crawling in a short skirt and you see right up it, panties and all. And in the Leon version, she tries to seduce Leon. She gets him in bed and lies next to him (wearing some kind of baggy underwear), wraps his arm around her, and snuggles up to him. That's how the scene ends, but it was as pedo as it can be.

Replies:   Joe Long
KinkyWinks

@Not_a_ID

No, they would not be portraying an underage person. They would be 20 or 22 doing what others of that age do. Other people "would think they are underage" causing various problems such as being on a topless beach would bring every cop in the area along with the Child Protection people.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

Portman was 13 then. Pretty flat in the movie, but she still is. Now 5-3, when standing next to 6-2 Jean Reno was below his shoulder, so probably about 5-0, and hips weren't very wide. Clearly pre-pubescent, despite being nearly 14.

"Californication" - pilot episode. David Duchovny age 46, Madeline Zima age 21 but playing a 16 year old who at 17 minutes in (free on Amazon Prime) is riding him hard, her big tits swaying (and for most of us, had only previously remembered her at the cute grade school girl on "The Nanny". Now that I've looked this up (and reqatched the Zima clip) I'm reminded that Madeleine Martin, then 14, played his 12 year old daughter who to me looked much more like 10 (not full height, flat) but as far as I know she doesn't have sex in the show (but I've only seen season 1)

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@KinkyWinks


No, they would not be portraying an underage person. They would be 20 or 22 doing what others of that age do. Other people "would think they are underage" causing various problems such as being on a topless beach would bring every cop in the area along with the Child Protection people.


No, that gets into an entirely different situation. As Ernest Bywater has complained about previously in some forms. In his case in the land of Oz(and also here in the United States, Canada, and numerous other places), there are things that a person in certain age brackets is more than legally capable of doing. Their participation in such activities with each other, and (certain) others is perfectly legal. Such as wandering around completely starkers at a nude beach.

But if you(or they) happen to end up with pictures or video of them engaging in said acts, you(or they) have broken the law by committing it "to film."

In the case of some Australian Provinces and Canada, just writing (to any kind of descriptive detail) about them engaging in perfectly legal activities is an illegal act according to the letter of the law.

Edit to add: In the US, a clear cut example would be two 17 year olds deciding to make a "sex tape" using a digital camera, be it a web cam, or the camera feature on their smart phone. In virtually every state in the US, it is legal for two 17 year olds to engage in sexual relations with one another. However, because they're under the age of 18, the video recording they made is illegal and can be made subject to prosecution under federal law, among other things, and shall always remain illegal until such time as the law changes. Whereas if they waited until they turned 18 to shoot that video, nobody in the Criminal Justice system would bother with it until/unless it became a "revenge porn" item.

Edit to add: Although in some respects these laws are starting to see some attention due to teen sexting going on. Kind of screwed up that it's possible for a 19YO to potentially be subjected to child pornography charges because they have naked sexually suggestive pictures of themselves that they'd forgotten about stashed away in a hard drive or memory card somewhere.

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

In the case of some Australian Provinces and Canada, just writing (to any kind of descriptive detail) about them engaging in perfectly legal activities is an illegal act according to the letter of the law.

That is true in Australia. Merely writing or possessing fictional accounts of some activities that are perfectly legal if done by real people is a criminal act - punishable with up to 15 years in prison! If prosecuted, the only way to escape conviction is by demonstrating to the court that the material would 'not be considered offensive by a reasonable person'.
That is in a federal law, but some States probably have similar laws too.
The law is written to cover every possibility. It covers both citizens and residents of Australia; anything stored on any electronic storage device; all devices someone may control; anywhere in the world; drawings and words as well as images of real people; people or characters actually, or appearing to be, under 18 years old; and descriptions of body parts as well as sexual acts.
The way the law is drafted is extreme, but fortunately the way it is applied is rational and restrained. In practice, no one is prosecuted unless they clearly intended to possess what most would call "kiddie porn".
In Australia, Public Prosecutors are independent - they don't lose their job if the government changes. Before starting any prosecutions, their office must assess them as both 'in the public interest' and likely to result in a conviction. The budget allocation the offices receive from the government is also limited. That means some valid charges laid by the police are not prosecuted simply because the office only has enough funds to proceed with higher priority cases.
Still, anyone planning a holiday in Australia might consider what Not_a_ID suggested above - getting a new "clean" computer for the border crossing. Australia's a great place for a holiday, but would you want to stay there for 15 years? ... with no access to SOL?

Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

As Ernest Bywater has complained about previously in some forms. In his case in the land of Oz(and also here in the United States, Canada, and numerous other places), there are things that a person in certain age brackets is more than legally capable of doing


It can be worse than that. The current laws on Child Porn are so badly written that a person with photos of his 19 y/o girlfriend topless got convicted because in the judgement of the magistrate the girl looked to be under 16 y/o.

KinkyWinks

It can be worse than that. The current laws on Child Porn are so badly written that a person with photos of his 19 y/o girlfriend topless got convicted because in the judgement of the magistrate the girl looked to be under 16 y/o.

Ernest, I'm reasonably sure that if that happened in the US that the case would be dropped the moment that the girls age was known. That is the situation I was trying to get across. It could have a lot of crazy things like police arresting the husband and his 20 year old wife because she looked underage.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@KinkyWinks


Ernest, I'm reasonably sure that if that happened in the US that the case would be dropped the moment that the girls age was known. That is the situation I was trying to get across.


In the U.S. Yes, but don't count on it in either Canada or Australia.

Although my own experience with Canada says that particular example is "probably" safe enough, don't count on it. I was caught out with material of commercial (Japanese) origin which was obviously drawn, and of such a nature as to be easily/reasonably believed as fictional in nature. A "real picture" that can be construed as being of someone underage may not receive such mercy from the Crown's Officers.

Edit to add: It's a difference in the laws as written/implemented in those nations. In the U.S. Actual age is the primary decider on the federal side, as such fictional scenarios largely get a pass(once established as such), although local obscenity laws may still get used.

In Canada and Australia, it is apparent age that is the decider, and fictional scenarios do not get an immediate pass.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@KinkyWinks


That is the situation I was trying to get across. It could have a lot of crazy things like police arresting the husband and his 20 year old wife because she looked underage.


As Ernest already demonstrated, it isn't the act itself that is illegal and leading to law enforcement action. It is "the documentation" of said act which is illegal. Such as the guy who was convicted for having topless photos of his 19YO girlfriend that the Judge (law enforcement, and prosecution) decided "looked underaged."

Screwed up results ARE happening because of how some of the laws are written in even "1st World" Nations.

StarFleet Carl

@EzzyB

I'm not the least bit interested in using gimmicks to skirt the rules. If I write it, and SOL doesn't want it, I'll just post it somewhere else.


But isn't that the whole point of what you were asking in the first place?

I have a cousin with two daughters, one is 22, the other is 14. Due to what is primarily a pituitary gland issue, the 22 year old quite frankly looks like she's about 12, including only being about 4'10", about 90 lbs. She has the face of a 22 year old, but the body of literally a pre-teen. She did go through puberty, it's just she quit growing. Her sister that's 14 is already 5'3" and 110.

Under the rules of this site, if I were to write a fictional story that I had sex with these two girls, not an issue. But because of the description thing - where perception of the judiciary is what matters - I could describe the body of the 14 year old because she is physically more mature than her much older sister, while a fairly accurate description of the 22 year olds body could be interpreted by a judge (not necessarily one here in the US, but in another country) as child pornography.

And yeah, I shouldn't know what the 22 year old looks like, but we've had family parties with swimming pools involved, and my wife being a nurse and like a sister to the cousin with the daughters, they've talked the older one and her condition for more than 15 years, when it really first became a problem.

Note again that I'm not talking about just here in the U.S., because the actual age here is the rule, but since this is an international web-site, of those countries where the judge has lee-way under perception issues. And the respect that we should have for the owner and operator of this web-site as well. This is one of the best sites out there. Literally, why fuck it up for him?

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@StarFleet Carl

Literally, why fuck it up for him?


I think a better question would be: Why fuck it up for everyone?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

But if you(or they) happen to end up with pictures or video of them engaging in said acts, you(or they) have broken the law by committing it "to film."

In the case of some Australian Provinces and Canada, just writing (to any kind of descriptive detail) about them engaging in perfectly legal activities is an illegal act according to the letter of the law.

Just a note: writing about 'walking across a nude beach while underage' will NOT subject you to prosecution in Australia or anywhere else, though writing explicit sex scenes between characters 'underage' could.

@Ross at Play

Still, anyone planning a holiday in Australia might consider what Not_a_ID suggested above - getting a new "clean" computer for the border crossing. Australia's a great place for a holiday, but would you want to stay there for 15 years? ... with no access to SOL?

Hell, if ever having written ANYTHING, Anywhere, or stored Anywhere can result in a 15-year-sentence, I think I'll avoid EVER visiting Oz, with or without a computer of flashdrive!

Crumbly Writer

@KinkyWinks

Ernest, I'm reasonably sure that if that happened in the US that the case would be dropped the moment that the girls age was known. That is the situation I was trying to get across. It could have a lot of crazy things like police arresting the husband and his 20 year old wife because she looked underage.

Hell, my sister is 64 and kids love her because she LOOKS like one of them. She's reasonably tall, but she's thin and smiles like a little girl. At 45 or 50 (before kids) she still looked like she was underaged at first glance.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

In Canada and Australia, it is apparent age that is the decider, and fictional scenarios do not get an immediate pass.

Nope. There are specific laws, fairly recently passed, which specifically forbid literary fiction pieces depicting teenage sex acts, so no, fictional scenarios do NOT get a pass in Australia.

In the U.S., there's no way you could get a conviction with such a law—even if it passes—since we have such a complex history with censorship. But the courts have always erred on the rights of authors, rather than the right of 'public citizens' wishing to protect imaginary children. Unfortunately, those legal precedents were build up over hundreds of years of large publishing houses defending authors in court, something no one could defend in court nowadays given the expense and the limited financial wherewithal of publishers.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

I think a better question would be: Why fuck it up for everyone?

A better option, if you feel the NEED to write such things, invent a new pseudonym, post it like everyone else to Amazon (who also forbids such things) and when caught (and they delete your account, keeping any undistributed funds), simply create yet another pseudonym with a new email address and continue posting with no chance of criminal prosecution of any kind (in the U.S., at least).

Just don't do it here, where every author/reader will pay for your poor decision making, rather than you having to pay the penalty for deciding to 'test the literary boundaries'!

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

Nope. There are specific laws, fairly recently passed, which specifically forbid literary fiction pieces depicting teenage sex acts, so no, fictional scenarios do NOT get a pass in Australia.


I just have the guidance of the LEO who went through the Hentai I had with me on that one crossing. The big thing they were looking for was "prepubescent looking" so at least for the Canadians.

While the law might stipulate 16, their customs people are likely to only take note of certain (obviously fictional things) in the 14+ range without too much fuss, pain, or suffering. Much as Laz has likewise placed the bar for stories at that level as well.

The letter of the law may allow them to act, but for whatever their reasons are, they(the Canadians) are not doing so. That said, testing them is likely to be a bad idea unless you want to become the legal test case on that matter.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

The letter of the law may allow them to act, but for whatever their reasons are, they(the Canadians) are not doing so.

As I've said before, they're carefully picking their first test case. Once that holds up—if it does—they'll star moving the bar higher again. 14 is safe for now, but we'll see what happens after a few years.

The Australian law, though, specifically targets works of literary fiction, as well as autobiographies of victims or therapy journals! The politicians don't care who they penalize!

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


The Australian law, though, specifically targets works of literary fiction, as well as autobiographies of victims or therapy journals! The politicians don't care who they penalize!


I covered this issue in A Well-Lived Life 2, from the issue of psychological counseling and 'mandatory reporting' laws. The state in which I live has zero exceptions, not even for research, for any 'mandatory reporter', which can include anyone, depending on the situation, even if they are not aware of the requirement.

Zom
Updated:

I find it interesting that 'under age' sex is such a magnesium hot topic, and seems to be the supreme crime.

It is worse than theft, extortion, arson, torture, murder, mass murder, genocide, terrorism, and all the many other violent and destructive crimes. It is clearly the very worst, no questions asked.

I say this, because authors are allowed, and even encouraged to write about all the other heinous activities in gory detail, but even the mention of activity with an 'under age' person that could be sexual is verboten.

And it seems that said authors are constrained by community expectations, via the law, in most jurisdictions. But aren't criminals similarly constrained for the other crimes as well?

How is 'under age' sex singled out as the only one of them you can't write about?

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Zom

I find it interesting that 'under age' sex is such a magnesium hot topic, and seems to be the supreme crime.

It is worse than theft, extortion, arson, torture, murder, mass murder, genocide, terrorism, and all the many other violent and destructive crimes. It is clearly the very worst, no questions asked.


Because laws are written by politicians, and politicians cater to the whims of the voters. And one of the largest voting blocks out there can be identified as some variation of "parent" and parents in particular tend to have a hard time wrapping their head around the idea of their "little ones" going out and having sex.

This is further magnified by their own memories of what their youth was like, and many of them (in particular the men) not wanting things to be "like that" (for their daughters in particular), so thus we get stuck with "Think of the Children!" For the rationale for why things go completely insane within the legal system where sexuality and youth intersect.

Because well, most parents aren't exactly sane when it comes to sexuality and their children.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Ernest Bywater

@Zom

And it seems that said authors are constrained by community expectations, via the law, in most jurisdictions.


Be it text or photos, the severe Aussie laws also include an out if it's classified as art. The catch is you can't create it or possess it in Australia until after it's classified as art. So it has to be created outside Australia, called art by the proper authorities, then imported.

Ernest Bywater

@Zom

How is 'under age' sex singled out as the only one of them you can't write about?


Don't worry, more things will be added to the list as the years go by, until even disagree with the Pope will get you 20 years in prison.

richardshagrin

It is lucky for Shakespeare the authorities can't get at him since Juliet in "Romeo and Juliet" is 13. I am not certain about Librarians, English teachers, and others who recommend his works, they may be in danger as pedophile pushers. Maybe its "Art" and they can escape prosecution on that basis. I suspect SOL wouldn't want to take the chance and put it on the site, however.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Michael Loucks

@Not_a_ID

Because well, most parents aren't exactly sane when it comes to sexuality and their children.


A topic explored in depth in my series. And one that I WISH could be explored with the general public, but alas, on this topic, the insanity brooks no interference.

REP
Updated:

@Zom

The complexity of the issue is the result of several reasons rolled combined; some are difficult to identify. Not-a-Id's point would be one of those reasons. Add in the religious extremists who want to define how we should live our lives as a Christian. Then there are all of those written and unwritten Victorian era rules/laws that some of us were taught as kids.

One of the things that popped into my head was a scene from Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. The Lunies had overthrown the Earth Authority and were in the process of creating a new government. I think the characters was called Professor, but in a meeting the main leaders of the revolt are discussing their Constitutional Congress and the Professor is asked about the work the group is doing. Part of his response, which I don't recall accurately, is that it never ceased to amaze him that people wanted laws created to prevent their neighbor from doing something that would be bad for him.

This type of person says - It is bad for us to read about things like fictional accounts of adults and underage kids having sex. It will lead my neighbor into engaging in sexual activities with innocent children. Since my neighbor can't control himself, we need laws to prevent people from writing about that type of sexual activity. If the stories aren't available, my neighbor and others can't do what is bad for them.

Replies:   Zom
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

It is lucky for Shakespeare the authorities can't get at him since Juliet in "Romeo and Juliet" is 13. I am not certain about Librarians, English teachers, and others who recommend his works, they may be in danger as pedophile pushers. Maybe its "Art" and they can escape prosecution on that basis. I suspect SOL wouldn't want to take the chance and put it on the site, however.


Don't worry, the English Lit profs have a long way to go to be the top pedo pushers - priests and imams and rabbis. Jewish culture during biblical times (and still is today) has a ceremony to celebrate reaching adulthood for females (batmitzvah) at 13 y/o and males (barmitzvah) at 14. At that time most girls were married at 13 or 14 and having kids by 15. That heritage is part of the Hebrew, Christian, and Muslim faiths and in their holy books.

Replies:   Wheezer  Switch Blayde
docholladay

Simple answer don't post it here. If you must post the story then do it where the only one at legal risk is you. It almost looks like you want everyone else to take that risk for you.

Wheezer

@Ernest Bywater

At that time most girls were married at 13 or 14 and having kids by 15. That heritage is part of the Hebrew, Christian, and Muslim faiths and in their holy books.

Yeah, the New Testament states that Mary was betrothed to Joseph when she became pregnant. She would have been 12-14 years old by the customs of the time and area. Wouldn't that make God a pedophile, or at least a hebephile? ;P

Replies:   Joe Long  Switch Blayde
Joe Long

@Wheezer

Right, what's wrong with hebephilia?

I confess my personal tastes are to either end, those that are unusual in their quality. From "She looks like that and she's only 13?" to Ming-na Wen being past 50 and still looking like that. Those in between are a dime a dozen.

On the young end, I of course know that touching is strictly forbidden (and enforced) but I'll only gaze at someone who looks like a mature adult in spite of their age.

Although...knowing that's off-limits has recently given rise to a related attraction (mentioned here) of those who are past the legal age of 18, look adult, but in many ways can still pass for someone past puberty but not old enough to drive. That's a fantasy that it would be legal to be with her but easy to imagine she's younger.

When I was thinking of actors to play the roles in my story, I chose Kaitlyn Dever of "Last Man Standing" for the love interest Hannah. Dever's 20 and Hannah is 14, but Dever has not changed a bit in her appearance since she started on the show at age 13. Ambiguous.

Switch Blayde

@Wheezer

Yeah, the New Testament states that Mary was betrothed to Joseph when she became pregnant.


One belief, not the one in the New Testament, is that Mary was raped by a Roman guard. That's how she got pregnant.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

and males (barmitzvah) at 14.


It's 13 for boys too.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Michael Loucks

@Switch Blayde


One belief, not the one in the New Testament, is that Mary was raped by a Roman guard. That's how she got pregnant.


There are hints of that in the Gospels, for example, when the religious leaders confront Jesus, one taunt is 'we know who our father is', implying that he's not only a bastard, but that Mary doesn't know who the father is.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

One belief, not the one in the New Testament, is that Mary was raped by a Roman guard. That's how she got pregnant.


Despite that being extremely unlikely. Her family, like Joseph's were very rich and upper class. Her Uncle, Joseph of Aramathea (hope I wrote that right) owned and ran a fleet of ships that traded across the Mediterranean, up the channel, and the west coast of Britain - the family had money. So Mary would've been well protected with family guards. And Joseph, her intended, came from the house of David - they weren't the local kings anymore, but were still rich and powerful like a duke.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


It's 13 for boys too.


I'm not a member of the Hebrew faith, so I was going on what I heard. Just checked and you're right - 13 for boys, but 12 for girls. I knew the girls were a year younger, so I go that part right.

Edit to add: Those ceremonies might be where the Catholic 'First Communion Ceremony' and fancy dress probably started from. However, now they can go as low as 7 y/o.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  joyR
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

you're right - 13 for boys, but 12 for girls


I am Jewish. The way I grew up, it is 13 for both boys and girls.

But I just found this with Google:

A girl becomes a bat mitzvah at the age of 12 according to Orthodox and Conservative Jews, and at the age of 13 according to Reform Jews.


Who knew?

Replies:   Lumpy  Ernest Bywater
Lumpy

@Switch Blayde

Who knew?


Presumably, Orthodox and Conservative Jews :)

But your point was well made, I just couldn't resist the snark.

joyR

@Ernest Bywater

Those ceremonies might be where the Catholic 'First Communion Ceremony' and fancy dress probably started from. However, now they can go as low as 7 y/o.


Apparently the older ones could run faster than their priests.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

Who knew?


the Orthodox and Conservative Jews, I'd guess - but the rest of us didn't.

Replies:   Lumpy
Lumpy

@Ernest Bywater

Hey, I just made that joke :)

Zom

@REP

Since my neighbor can't control himself, we need laws to prevent people from writing about that type of sexual activity. If the stories aren't available, my neighbor and others can't do what is bad for them.

What you say in general describes the nanny state nicely. But the question remains about why 'under age' sex is SO much hotter than any other transgression. I'm not sure there is an answer other than runaway feedback. All the things mentioned in this thread are contributors, I'm sure. I just get the feeling it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes. I am not trying to lessen the seriousness of inappropriate sexual activity for children, I am just ignorant about why the rest of the nasties aren't up there with it. Humans are a strange lot.

Replies:   Joe Long
Joe Long

@Zom

What bother me is calling 17 years olds children. I was graduated from high school when I was still 17. Before puberty they are physically immature children and shouldn't be having sex. After that it's a matter of emotional maturity, and that's a sliding scale - perhaps 1% at 13, 99% at 21, and who knows in-between until you actually know the young person.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Joe Long

What bother me is calling 17 years olds children.


Now you're getting into legal definition territory. Does the person, if they commit a crime, have the mens rea to actually understand their actions, and the consequences thereof?

There's no magical reason why 17 year olds are children and 18 year olds are adults. It's because of the necessity to create a specific age when you can sign a legally binding contract. There's a scene in the movie "Liar, Liar" when Jim Carey has the following comment: " My client lied about her age! She was only 17 when she got married, which makes her a minor. And in the great state of California, no minor can enter into any legal contract without parental consent."

That's really what it boils down to.

(And tell me about it, I had barely turned 17 when I graduated high school.)

Replies:   Zom
Zom
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl

mens rea to actually understand their actions


This is another touch point for me.

The idea that one needs to understand that one is committing a crime, and the consequences of it, before it is actually a crime, and not just an accident.

What happened to ignorance of the law being no excuse?

If a minor commits murder and pleas ignorance, do the parents/guardians need prison time?

At what point did incarceration stop being punishment and start being therapy?

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Zom

The idea that one needs to understand that one is committing a crime, and the consequences of it, before it is actually a crime, and not just an accident.


Generally, mens rea should apply in cases where it's unreasonable for someone to know what they did was a 'crime'. You know, like putting a lobster in a plastic bag instead of a box. See:

Rough Justice

That's a link to The Economist, not a blog.

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@Michael Loucks

putting a lobster in a plastic bag instead of a box

That is about as absurd as it gets alright. Unfortunately, the test for 'reasonable' assumes there can be a measure for 'a reasonably prudent person'. Not a skerrick of evidence for that there…

Still, they broke the law. Sadly, on the surface of it, it is the law enforcers that are the asses, not the law, and not the perpetrators. Are we sure there was no Capone corollary operating?

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Zom

That is about as absurd as it gets alright. Unfortunately, the test for 'reasonable' assumes there can be a measure for 'a reasonably prudent person'. Not a skerrick of evidence for that there…

Still, they broke the law. Sadly, on the surface of it, it is the law enforcers that are the asses, not the law, and not the perpetrators. Are we sure there was no Capone corollary operating?


We elect/hire/retain prosecutors based on the number of convictions they obtain, and pass laws about just about everything, creating the perfect storm where everyone is always a felon, and the only thing protecting you from the government is that there aren't enough government agents to arrest everyone. Yet.

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