Forum: Author Hangout

There's a word for wandering around without a destination - lost. ;)

Another one is - I'm an elected government official.

Listen to the voice of experience. SB's been doing this for over 1,200 years! :)

Dewey, Dewey, Dewey.... How many times must you be told?
(such a disappointing child...) ;)

Switch's summary is good. In my own case, I've never used an outline, however, I generally have most of the plot laid out mentally before I ever start writing. What I use are 'way points', essentially the points the plot changes, and then I write towards those. I know I have to get to each one, but how I get there (and how many chapters it may take, is completely up in the air). Often, I won't have any clue what the next chapter will be (or even what it'll be called) until I get there.

That said, the essential point is to know the ending before you start writing. If you never know how the story will end, then how will you ever get there. Everything in your story should help propel the story to the end, either in developing the underlying conflict, introducing the players, defining everyone's motivations, escalating the conflict and eventually resolving. The ending of the story is your ultimate guide. If you aren't building towards it, you're wasting your time on piddly details.

However, even that isn't carved in stone. With my six book "Catalyst" series, I knew from the beginning the series would eventually end with the character's death, and rebirth on a new world, but I never knew precisely how he'd die until the I was finished off book five. I figured it would be some kind of car crash, but I didn't know the specifics. Essentially, the details aren't essential. They're important—but it's more important you have the context for them—which often develops over time. But knowing what I was writing to, and the development the characters needed to undergo to get there, guided me in getting there.

We've also discussed endlessly whether it's better to write 'free-form' or complete your entire first draft before posting. I've of the 'finish before posting school', as it allows you to refine and prune guided by where the story ends up.

However, not everyone writes that way, so I'll leave how you write up to you in that regard.

As others have said, outlines have a purpose and can be very beneficial.

One thing not stated is, while an outline is a guide to your destination, it is not set in concrete. Feel free to revise it so it reflects your current vision of the storyline.

A second thing is all Authors have a vision of how their storyline will evolve and that vision is in essence a mental outline. Some of us work to a mental outline; others create a written outline.

If anyone else has recommendations on books

Many people swear by Stephen King's book. I think it's called "On Writing." I can't recommend it because I never read it.

Many people swear by Stephen King's book. I think it's called "On Writing." I can't recommend it because I never read it.

I can recommend it because I have read it.

It's more or less half King's personal (writing) history, including his addictions and intervention, and writing advice. The personal history is very engaging—he's a funny guy and, wait for it, a pretty good writer.

The writing advice is pretty standard but useful nonetheless. It's a good read.

bb

If anyone else has recommendations on books or online course

Don't forget all the articles on the Internet. Google is your friend. I learned most of what I currently know doing that.

For example, my first novel was rejected with actual feedback — "show don't tell and don't head hop." I had no idea what they meant so I googled them. Reading those articles led me to googling other terms, such as, POV, dialogue, plot, etc. Always add "fiction" or "novel" to the search.

Just be selective of the advice given. Some of it is flat out wrong (in my opinion). I usually look at the source. In order of priority, it's publishers/agents, editors, traditionally published authors, other authors, professors, everyone else.

ETA: Here are some articles to get you started:

show don't tell -
http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1250873-Telling-Vs-Showing---Part-1

http://www.aliventures.com/why-show-dont-tell/

head-hopping

http://thewritepractice.com/head-hopping-and-hemingway/

In order of priority, it's

Good advice.

There are a lot of people in that everyone else category and their articles frequently contradict each other. Checkout their credentials, if provided, before you just accept their advice. I've noticed that a large portion of these people are essentially bloggers expressing their personal opinions with no real facts to backup their opinions.

I've noticed that a large portion of these people are essentially bloggers expressing their personal opinions with no real facts to backup their opinions.

What's more, many writing books fit into standard categories: books written by failed writers who basically can't write, so they write about something they essentially don't understand, or they're written by author jealously guarding their turf, so they offer misguiding advice geared towards preventing anyone else from competing with them, with enough generic advice to entice unsuspecting notices.

The few honest and legitimate books, like Stephen King's, are few and far between.

Also, the advice offered here is highly specific, geared to writing largely erotic stories on SOL. There are other more specialized forums, like the LinkedIn Writers' Groups, but they're more geared towards publishing than writing in general. Again, most of the blogs are geared towards writing blogs, rather than fiction.

Which is where many published authors go wrong in many cases as well, where they can spend several pages describing a room without ever doing anything to advance the story anywhere. Yes, that's makes a detailed story, but it's the unimportant kind of detail, and will drive most readers bonkers.

I don't know, I seem to remember some classics "In the Wild", "Out of Africa", "Mississippi Delta" where detailed descriptions of the tropical heat and lush vegetation really gave you a feel for the place and what the characters were experiencing. It also helped prepare readers for the languid pace of the characters.

Descriptions themselves aren't the problem, it's when they're irrelevant to the plot—but then, many will argue over which details are essential to the plot.

I've read many stories based solely on the rich, florid descriptions, regardless of what the plot was about. If a story is well-written and you enjoy reading each line, the plot almost becomes secondary to the enjoyment of reading.

I've mentioned before, my ideal test for a book is to pick up a book (in a bookstore), turn to a random page in the middle of a chapter, in the middle of a paragraph and read a single line. If that one line convinces me to read the book, I know I'll enjoy the entire book, regardless of what happens in the story. Unfortunately, the books that qualify for that test are becoming increasingly rare as everyone races to write 5 to 10 word sentences any 5th grader can easily read. :(

rich, florid descriptions, regardless of what the plot was about. If a story is well-written and you enjoy reading each line, the plot almost becomes secondary to the enjoyment of reading.

More true for literary fiction than genre fiction.

And let us not forget, times have changed. When Jane Austen wrote, people would spend hours sitting under a tree reading beautiful prose/descriptions. Today that novel has to compete with TV and the Internet.

And let us not forget, times have changed. When Jane Austen wrote, people would spend hours sitting under a tree reading beautiful prose/descriptions. Today that novel has to compete with TV and the Internet.

That's the reason why I got into writing, because I was sick of the 'written for a reality TV series' book plot. I prefer a well-written, well-crafted scene over an action-packed scene with bodies flying everywhere. There's a time for action, but there's also time for lyricism (though you can't spend too long on it if you expect to keep your readers happy).

All in all, you're better off investing time developing you characters, rather than developing the scene. The character descriptions will last for the entire story, while the environment will only last until the next scene.

Don't forget all the articles on the Internet. Google is your friend.

But beware of what you read on the Internet, about 80% of what's out there on writing is totally useless for fiction writing. Much of it is a case of people telling you how to write when they can't write a story at all. But there is some great stuff out there, just be careful and think about what they have to say first.

I'll also put a plug in for how to best prepare a story for upload to SoL, and my own advice guide on writing - both are free:

https://storiesonline.net/article/Text-formatting-guide-for-WLPC-Sites

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ernest-bywater/fiction-writing-style-guide/ebook/product-23155351.html

Don't forget all the articles on the Internet. Google is your friend. I learned most of what I currently know doing that.

Don't forget, outlines are mainly left-over remnants of the traditional publishers lock on the writing market years ago. Writers only used outlines because publishers required them before they'd take a chance on a future book.

Since none of us have gone that particular route (with a few minor exceptions), most of us find ourselves swimming in the deep-end of the pool with no swimming lessons. You either learn fast or drown.

That's why we spend so much time wrestling with Styles, because we're under no obligation to stick to one (by a predetermined publisher), but we recognize that consistency is important so readers don't get confused by constantly changing standards.

The key is: since few of us were ever trained as writers, we're all fending for ourselves and commiserating together. There is no one way to write, the right way is whichever way works for you.

What's more, if you ever need advice or to bounce ideas off someone else, we're always here for any and all stupid questions.

Writers only used outlines because publishers required them before they'd take a chance on a future book.

I dispute your claim that outlines were only used due to publisher requirements. They help the author to work out what he's doing, and help him lay out the story. Even if the outline is only a mental one and not written down, it's still there and needed to help give direction and focus.

I dispute your claim that outlines were only used due to publisher requirements. They help the author to work out what he's doing, and help him lay out the story. Even if the outline is only a mental one and not written down, it's still there and needed to help give direction and focus.

I'll concede your point, after all, I admitted to keeping a mental outline, but the formal outline most think of when they think of authors are a vestige of the traditional publishers who required a written outline—often before they'd even consider a story.

What's more, when they saw something in an outline, they'd demand where it was if you shifted it somewhere else!

traditional publishers who required a written outline

The only time I've seen where a publisher wanted an outline was when you submit a manuscript to them they want a part of the work to look at and an outline summary of the story - that's so they can see what it's about without reading the whole manuscript and it's more comprehensive than an author outline as well usually being done after the story is finished.

The only time I've seen where a publisher wanted an outline was when you submit a manuscript to them they want a part of the work to look at and an outline summary of the story - that's so they can see what it's about without reading the whole manuscript and it's more comprehensive than an author outline as well usually being done after the story is finished.

The times I've heard of it being done—never firsthand, as the uses were well before my time on author forums—was when they were 'optioning' a book (i.e. offering a preliminary offer on an unfinished book). As such, they wanted as detail about what the book would contain as possible. But, alas, the days when publishers offered those kinds of deals are long past. (At least no one I know has ever gotten an offer like that!)

The times I've heard of it being done—never firsthand,

The italics in my last but one post are direct from the website for Hachette about submitting manuscripts to them, so it's current for them. Also, I saw similar instructions for four other publishers while doing some publisher research last year - all were big publishers, but only a few allowed direct submissions while most stated they only accepted manuscripts from agents.

was when they were 'optioning' a book (i.e. offering a preliminary offer on an unfinished book). As such, they wanted as detail about what the book would contain as possible. But, alas, the days when publishers offered those kinds of deals are long past.

That's how it's done for non-fiction.

Unless that dinnerware is going to anthropormize such as in Beauty and Beast, or be used to leave lasting (physical) impressions upon the guests. It probably wasn't needed.

There are exceptions to every rule: "The Great Gadsby" or even "Upstairs/Downstairs" springs to mind. But I take your point, which I made later down in the same comment you responded to.

What's more, if you ever need advice or to bounce ideas off someone else, we're always here for any and all stupid questions.

We'll even try to help with the intelligent questions, and not just the stupid questions.

We'll even try to help with the intelligent questions, and not just the stupid questions.

Intelligent answers, but completely idiotic horsey puns. 'D

Intelligent answers, but completely idiotic horsey puns.

neigh.

outlines are mainly left-over remnants of the traditional publishers lock on the writing market years ago.

The only time a publisher would see an outline is for non-fiction (as part of a proposal. It's what's in each chapter). An outline is used by some authors to write their novels. The publisher sees the final manuscript.

The only time a publisher would see an outline is for non-fiction (as part of a proposal. It's what's in each chapter). An outline is used by some authors to write their novels. The publisher sees the final manuscript.

Call it an outline or a synopsis, the publishers usually want to see something that tells them what the story is about without having to read it all first. Many publisher will only accept submissions from their list of approved agents now, but those who will still accept over the counter submissions usually have a list like Hachette do:

- a synopsis (approximately 300 words) and word count;

- a brief biography, including any previous publishing history, writing experience or awards;

- a brief cover letter stating the genre or category, your intended audience, authors you believe are similar to you; and

- your contact details (postal address, phone number, email address).

- If your work is non-fiction, please also supply a detailed chapter outline.

- Please tell us if your work is out on submission with agents or other publishers.

- Ensure the combined attachments do not exceed 1 megabyte.

Note: for the non-fiction they want a detailed chapter outline while every submission has to have a shorter basic outline they call a synopsis - in both cases it means tell me what the story line and plot is, i.e. an outline of the story.

Call it an outline or a synopsis, the publishers usually want to see something that tells them what the story is about without having to read it all first.

That's the synopsis. But if you submit a synopsis, you better have the manuscript ready if they request it.

But if you submit a synopsis, you better have the manuscript ready if they request it.

The list I posted is what they want you to send in with the manuscript.

The list I posted is what they want you to send in with the manuscript.

I've never had one ask for a full manuscript. They want a query letter, synopsis, and sample chapters (my experience is 3–5 chapters up to a certain number of words. And the chapters have to be copied into the body of the email. No attachments.

I've never had one ask for a full manuscript.

That could be, I'm only going with what I've seen here:

https://www.hachette.com.au/submissions/

and a few other publisher websites I didn't bother to book mark.

I'm only going with what I've seen here:

That's the first time I've seen a request for the full manuscript at the get-go. Usually they want a synopsis to give them the main characters and plot arc to see if they like your story and a sample of your writing to see if they like your writing. If both are yes, and the other stuff in the query matches their needs, like word count and genre, then they ask for the full manuscript.

btw, did you notice:

If your work is non-fiction, please also supply a detailed chapter outline.

btw, did you notice:

If your work is non-fiction, please also supply a detailed chapter outline.

ayep, and even mentioned that in the earlier post.

I like how they call that a detailed chapter outline while the other is a story synopsis, while both are really and outline of what it's about, just the story one is a much briefer version.

I like how they call that a detailed chapter outline while the other is a story synopsis, while both are really and outline of what it's about, just the story one is a much briefer version.

Not really. The synopsis is your elevator spiel, while the chapter outline details which topics are covered and shows how much detail you're covering (important to measure how broad the non-fiction book's appeal might be). One's a couple sentence summary while the other covers how the book is actually constructed.

It's like if someone asks to beta-read your story. You generally send them the story blurb. Most non-fiction doesn't include chapter outlines simply because many authors don't title chapters, but in my case, it reflects the humor in and temperament of the story.

By the way, just out of idle curiosity, how many authors here bother titling their chapters? If so, do you ever get any feedback about it (i.e. do fans appreciate or ignore them)?

By the way, just out of idle curiosity, how many authors here bother titling their chapters?

I do, and few readers mention the chapter titles in the feedback, beyond pointing out it makes it easier to remember where they're up to. Although there are times when the chapter headings form jokes, especially in the Table of Contents - example from a story in progress:

Time and Tide
Wait for No Man

The odd thing is when it happens it's unplanned, just happens.

I've had people comment on mine, especially when they create an especially clever joke you only realize once you've read the chapter, though I also got several complaints (once upon a time) about the titles containing spoilers.

I not only title my chapters, but I also like titling section breaks (where several chapters fit into a larger category). Unfortunately, SOL really doesn't really have a facility to include section titles in the story itself. Instead, they only show up in the Story index, which most readers never glace at once they started the story.

Sadly, taking my titles out of context, they lose their humor (without my detailing what happens in the chapters in question).

I not only title my chapters, but I also like titling section breaks (where several chapters fit into a larger category).

I do something similar, but in the other direction. I've three levels of story text:

Chapter

Sub-chapter - where I have things happen that really deserve their own chapter but are within the general confines of the chapter they're part of. These go through the whole page break and new page process.

Section - in-line heading for a section of text within the chapter / sub-chapter it appears in.

Not all chapters have sub-chapters and not all chapters or sub-chapters have sections, but many do.

The way to tell the difference between a chapter and a sub-chapter within the text is the chapter heading is red text in a larger plain font, while the sub-chapter is in blue italic font larger than normal text, and a section is in normal text font in bold - all three are centered on the line.

The Table of Contents only shows chapters and sub-chapters.

......................

With the jokes where I do have deliberate jokes the readers do comment, what is more interesting is the times I have something I wrote that turns out as a joke, when I didn't intend it to when I wrote it. In Life is Change I picked out common surnames for the region the story is set in Georgia, USA, and assigned them to Deputy Sheriffs, then used the two more common ones for the first two deputies. After a reader said something I realized what I'd done by either accident or subconscious to have:

Passing through the main workroom he sees four deputies sitting around. He smiles, and says, "Jefferson, Davis, get a unit, and follow me. Baker, Lawson, you're going with me."

Most of my best jokes aren't written with the conscious intention of being a joke, they just come out that way.

However, I do try to make the chapter, sub-chapter, and title headings interesting and / or amusing while relevant to the general context of the text within them.

there are times when the chapter headings form jokes,

Back in the days when movie theaters showed a double feature, there was a theater in NYC showing:

Romeo and Juliet
The Odd Couple

I like how they call that a detailed chapter outline while the other is a story synopsis, while both are really and outline of what it's about, just the story one is a much briefer version.

Not really.

In non-fiction, it's common to get a contract BEFORE the book is written. It's the detail chapter outline that is used to determine if the publisher wants to fund the writing of the book.

A synopsis is a brief summary of the main characters, main plot, plot arcs, etc., including spoilers. It's simply to help the publisher or agent determine if the structure is good.

Some development/structural editors work off the synopsis. Sometimes before the novel is written. It's to find plot holes, unrealistic characters, etc. BEFORE writing the novel so there's not a major re-write.

Each writer has their own methods* but it strikes me that SB had the best advice. I would remind you of posts not a moon ago about introducing the means of an action immediately before the action rather than at a logical introduction point much earlier.

In general, this is a useful device which I've used often. However, you do have to be very careful how you use it, because the worst books I've ever read were where they opened with a great action scene, then followed with a lot of crap to set the background for the rest of the story.

If you need a lot of background, you really have to think about how you're going to insert it into the story, and sometimes it is best to establish the background first. Like all writing, it's a case of horses for courses and you need to pick and choose to suit the story.

Like all writing, it's a case of horses for courses

I've found that horses generally like the first course they sign up for: hor derves, cause they don't like filling up all at once. Instead they prefer noshing for hours while gossiping with the fillies about the Phillies.

To B or not to B, that is the question.

actually, many years ago when I was in high school where we had form 1 to 6 after primary school of classes 1 to 6, my 2nd form English class had a slogan of:

"2B English or not 2B English - we may change it any day!"

First, a premise or scenario
Second, some characters
Third, how did they get is this situation?
Fourth, how does it all end?

Yep, and those 4 things in writing terms are:

plot's conflict
characters
inciting incident
plot's climax

plot's climax

Gasp, sigh! 'D

The best thesaurus is www.powerthesarus.org

Don't forget about http://www.onelook.com

And it's reverse dictionary. Want a word for "search for food" but can't think of one, put "search for food" in the reverse dictionary and it will give you a list of words.

And it's a good tool to get rid of those adverbs. You can put in "run quickly" and it will give you words.

Want a winter sport in your story? There's even a way to ask for winter sports.

Thank you for suggesting OneLook!

lichtyd

Don't forget about http://www.onelook.com

And it's reverse dictionary. Want a word for "search for food" but can't think of one, put "search for food" in the reverse dictionary and it will give you a list of words.

And it's a good tool to get rid of those adverbs. You can put in "run quickly" and it will give you words.

One site sells books sells a variety of 'thesaurus' books (like "The Emotional Thesaurus") which lists alternatives for various types of situations. I've found these very useful and a good read to wrap your head about 'showing' instead of 'showing'.

Unfortunately, if you purchase the books on Amazon, you often can't reference the books easily while writing, while the print books end up sitting on the shelf while you're writing on your computer. I haven't quite figured out how to keep them handy so I'll use them while writing. :(

Don't forget about http://www.onelook.com

And it's reverse dictionary. Want a word for "search for food" but can't think of one, put "search for food" in the reverse dictionary and it will give you a list of words.

And it's a good tool to get rid of those adverbs. You can put in "run quickly" and it will give you words.

One site sells books sells a variety of 'thesaurus' books (like "The Emotional Thesaurus") which lists alternatives for various types of situations. I've found these very useful and a good read to wrap your head about 'showing' instead of 'showing'.

Unfortunately, if you purchase the books on Amazon, you often can't reference the books easily while writing, while the print books end up sitting on the shelf while you're writing on your computer. I haven't quite figured out how to keep them handy so I'll use them while writing. :(

The best thesaurus is www.powerthesarus.org

I haven't used that one yet. Thanks for pointing it out, I'll have to add it to my thesaurus list (since most don't offer that many options). I typically use thesaurus.com.