Forum: Author Hangout

That's why I'm against such things as using parentheses in fiction to explain something.

That's why parentheses aren't considered an acceptable usage in fiction. While popular in non-fiction, fiction emphasizes using either plain commas or em-dashes. If it's an aside, you want to clearly mark it as such, but designate that the aside is essential to the meaning of the sentence, rather than merely extraneous information that no one cares about!

fiction emphasizes using either plain commas or em-dashes.

Bah! A parenthetical by any other punctuation is still a parenthetical.

Bah! A parenthetical by any other punctuation is still a parenthetical.

Not really, each punctuation marks has certain associations. Parenthesis are designed to yank you out of the current conversation to impart specific information—which is why it's frowned on in fiction. Commas work, without much significance one way or the other, while em-dashes denote something significant, something worthy of special note, it draws the eye. I frequently use them for a brief aside which foreshadows a major event to come in the future. Readers may not read much into it, but because it's marked in such a way, they tend to pay more attention to it, so it's likely to remain in their memories longer than a simpler aside.

The key, though, in all of this, is to NOT pull the reader out of the story. If you can't figure out a way to include the information in the story, then it usually belongs on the cutting room floor as immaterial to the story. If the aside isn't essential to understanding or advancing the story, then it's just not worth the effort.

A good example of this is how you might spell out abbreviations in parentheses in an email, but in fiction, it's cleaner to include the information in dialogue, as it's 'more natural' coming from the characters rather than from the author himself (re: Author Intrusion).

"We're from NCIS."

"Who?"

Tim sighs. "The Navel Crime Investigative Services."

The suspect rolls his eyes. "Couldn't you just say the damn Navy cops?"

"If I could, I would. You won't believe the number of times I've got to explain who the hell we are. NCIS doesn't just roll off the tongue like shouting 'POLICE!' does."

Not really, each punctuation marks has certain associations.

True to an extent. The marks themselves only set off text. The meaning of the marks is artificial in that writers and readers define the marks to have specific connotations. Those connotations are not inherent in the marks themselves. If someone has not learned the meanings associated with each type of punctuation, the connotation associated with the mark by others will not be understood.

I'll agree to a point. My editors will profess that I'm the most anti-comma person alive. Of course I adamantly refuse to use those ridiculous em-dashes as well.

Using commas where a parenthetcal is called for is simply bad grammar. Em-dashes are so far scattered in grammar as to be like that other crazy conversation I'm involved with now, Linux vs. Windows, or two spaces vs. one (I'm firmly in the two-space camp, my high-school typing teacher taught me that way, then again that was in the 70's).

The good news is that I long ago figured that English is malleable. Adapt it how you want, and how your readers like it.

Saying that parentheses is off-limits in fiction is just silly.

I'm firmly in the two-space camp

I'm in the one-space camp EXCEPT on my iPhone. When I'm typing on my iPhone and want a period to end the sentence, I have two choices. Change the keyboard to get to the period (a pain) or hit two spaces so Apple puts the period in automatically.

Using commas where a parenthetcal is called for is simply bad grammar.

No, it's simply a different usage for a different environment. Just as you wouldn't use smilies for business correspondence, or include dirty movies when writing about an abused women's shelter, you generally don't use em-dashes for non-fiction, and you don't use parentheses for fiction.

Parentheses are short-hand, just like smilies are, and they're designed to take you out of the passage to tell you something the author wants you to know (the very definition of Author Intrusion). While I'd never use a parenthesis in fiction, you'll note that I use them all the time here on the forum. It's a separate medium, and you abide by a separate set of rules governing each.

There are still plenty of authors who do use parentheses in fiction (usually their authors who came to the field from another field, where their inclusion was considered the norm). Their use in fiction (aside from their odd use in dialogue) is mainly used to highlight significant passages without the awkward Author Intrusion, so readers don't feel like they're being lectured. There's also a timing element to the em-dashes, just as there are to commas. Readers—for whatever reason— typically pause whenever the reach a comma, allow authors to control the pace at which passages are read. Those momentary pauses can convey a lot of meaning if carefully placed (and timed).

Using commas where a parenthetcal is called for is simply bad grammar.
No, it's simply a different usage for a different environment.

Not always (not talking fiction writing here). This is from Grammar Girl:

The 30th anniversary of the eruption of Mount St. Helens (May 18, 1980) brought back vivid memories of ash and darkness.

another good reason to use parentheses is that the date already contains a comma between the day and the year, so to surround it with commas would make the sentence difficult to read.

According to a Grammarly blog at https://www.grammarly.com/blog/duking-it-out-parentheses-vs-dash/ the AP Style Guide (not used for fiction but journalism) says the parenthesis is going away. It's an interesting article.

It's an interesting article.

No problem with that.

Articles expressing their authors' opinions can be very interesting. Especially when you have two articles that contradict each other and each of the authors believe their opinion is correct.

The problem arises when other people fail to realize the article is an opinion and start quoting the article as factual.

I adamantly refuse to use those ridiculous em-dashes as well.

Parentheses are used as an aside. Em-dashes to emphasis something (among other uses).

That's why people say not to use parentheses in fiction. An aside is the author talking, giving the reader info, taking the reader out of the story.

However, I'm inclined to bristle when anyone goes a step beyond recommendations to others, and asserts it's somehow incorrect to not do the same as they do. I think that is "just silly" too.

Actually, I agree, as there are often times when virtually anything is called on. Hell, I've used them myself—especially in my early writing days. Instead, it's always important for writers to realize why certain things are looked down upon, so they realize what they're risking when they try it. If a technique fails—once the author accepts a known risk—then the blame is entirely on them.

However, the key between 'use of the dash and commas is silly' vs. 'I understand why they're used, but they fit in this instance' are miles apart. In one, the author (supposedly) doesn't understand why it's important, and in the other he's accepting the risk knowingly.

Why is your bellybutton committing a crime?

It's out for all the link it can grab. Hide your dryer sheets and children's dirty socks!

You'd think, after having spent my entire childhood on various Navy bases and steeped in their culture, I'd figure out how to spell Naval. Then again, maybe it's psychological, given what they did to both my father and brother concerning my brother's land-breaking trial in the 80's.

Why is your bellybutton committing a crime?

I thought he was referring to a gang of criminal oranges.

Now, if it was the Mandarin Investigative Services, it could refer to the auditors of Chinese Imperial Officials, or perhaps a private detective agency who speak Chinese.

Watch out for the Spaniards, I hear the Valencia Cartel may get involved.

If you really want to give this information. Do it as a footnote at the end of the chapter with a sub heading of footnotes. That would make it optional information but not critical to the story itself. Meaning it can be skipped if desired.

The only time I'd include footnotes in fiction is for historical fiction, where understanding the details is essential in understanding the circumstances, and your fans expect a certain amount of historical accuracy. In any other genre, I'd think less of the story for including it, just as I wouldn't expect a prologue and epilogue in a romance story or mystery.

In one is needed, such a foreign terminology when someone travels overseas, I'd include everything in a Glossary in an Appendix (added chapter), so readers can jump to it to look up a variety of words, since that's as distracting as jumping to the end of each chapter.

That's when it's a good idea to have it as note the reader can skip over if they want to.

That's why it's better to leave it on the cutting room floor. As Edcomet mentioned, if the reader cares enough, they can easily look it up themselves, they don't need the author yanking them out of the story to tell them something they really don't care about anyway. Either tell the story or write a blog post, but don't confuse the two.

As Edcomet mentioned, if the reader cares enough, they can easily look it up themselves,

Except the reality is 99% of the readers who don't know it or understand it will email the authors and ask about it - thus taking up a lot more of the author's time where a short note, clearly marked as such, can resolve that and also let the reader skip it if they wish to.

Except the reality is 99% of the readers who don't know it or understand it will email the authors and ask about it - thus taking up a lot more of the author's time where a short note, clearly marked as such, can resolve that and also let the reader skip it if they wish to.

That's easy enough: forward each the same Google Search link, allowing them to find it themselves if they're unable to figure out how to Google themselves. (So much for my always promoting treating readers positively!)

Some examples by Bertrand Russell on BBC Radio in 1948:
I am firm, You are obstinate, He is a pig-headed fool.

Or:

I'm absolutely right, you're reporting fake news, and you're all a bunch of big meanies!!!!

One thing about Russell, he certainly knew how to compose sentences for maximum impact.

Take my Last name for example: Holladay
Its spelled in many different ways but regardless of how it is spelled the sound is the exact same. Change the spelling yet keep the sound. Pronunciation is such a handy tool for naming public figures yet avoiding their legal names.

Doc. HollowDy?

Even then you can use fictional names for a fictional timeline.

Another author I'm working with transposed a Cathy against an Atsa in a Medieval fantasy world, and the name was jarring, as it yanked the one character out of his invented world and threw her—and the reader—into the modern world.

Yeah, names can be simple, but they can also be striking. I often select names from baby name websites to capture the meanings that reflect their personalities long before they are revealed to the reader.