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Leaned or Leant

Ross at Play
Updated:

I recently reopened some festering old wounds here by suggesting writers who use AmE should prefer 'dived' instead of 'dove'.

My case was essentially, "Why NOT?". 'Dived' and 'dove' mean the same thing in AmE, it does not really matter which is chosen to readers who speak AmE. 'Dove' feels wrong to many readers who speak BrE, and the choice does matter to them (although, admittedly, it seems reasonable to expect most readers who speak BrE would recognise what 'dove' means).

I still think it is at best a discourtesy to non-American readers for American writers to prefer 'dove' over 'dived'. (Exceptions may exist for a character with a particularly regional style of speaking).

I just came across something that felt like a punch in the stomach. I was editing something for a writer who uses BrE. They need the past tense of 'to lean'. This situation is a complete reversal of that with 'dove'. Either 'leant' or 'leaned' mean the same thing to readers who speak 'BrE', but 'leant' feels wrong to many readers who speak AmE.

If I am to avoid being a complete and utter hypocrite I should recommend my writer (who uses BrE) to prefer 'leaned' - on the grounds it is more acceptable to Americans. My attitude should be: Down with all Limey Imperialist Pig-Dogs, too!

My new "rule" (and I use "rule" to automatically imply some exceptions do exist) is ALL writers should prefer regular forms that are valid internationally, in preference to irregular forms have a predominately regional usage. I stress I would only apply this rule to situations where there is absolutely no difference between the meanings of the different spellings for a word.

ustourist

@Ross at Play

Ignoring any dictionary definitions, I was brought up at a school that taught BrE and there can be a difference in usage between the two used as examples. (I won't get back into the 'dove' controversy again, though I would use that naturally).
A political party would have leaned to the left or right, a car with a flat tyre would have leaned towards the kerb. A person would have leant on a railing or leaned over a bannister. My gut feeling is that it may be a difference if contact is made, but it may just be that I couldn't think of other ideas once those thoughts were present.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Ross at Play


'Dived' and 'dove' mean the same thing in AmE, it does not really matter which is chosen to readers who speak AmE. 'Dove' feels wrong to many readers who speak BrE,


This is the key part of your comment. They may mean the same, but "dived" sounds wrong to many readers who speak AmE. So it does matter to someone speaking AmE.

When this first came up, I asked my wife about, "He dived into the pool." She made a face, shook her head, and said it sounded weird.

Oh, she has a masters in Creative Writing and English Literature and years back was an English teacher. And since it was English Literature, many of her reading material was from the classic British authors. So it's all about her speaking AmE and what sounds right to her as such.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Ross at Play

I would never use "leant," even in ustourist's example, and when I see it I automatically assume it's a BrE author, but I sometimes use "spelled" and sometimes "spelt." Go figure.

Replies:   ustourist  REP
ustourist

@Switch Blayde

Switch - what about dwelled or dwelt? As a BrE speaker I would automatically use the latter.

REP

@Switch Blayde

Personally, I believe it all comes down to what we were taught as kids. My family moved around the US due to my dad's position in the AF; he was a troubleshooter for the Supply system. It usually took him about 10 months to identify and fix a problem at a base, so we moved on an average of every 10 months for 16 years.

As a result, I attended schools all over the country, but never stayed long enough to develop a regional preference.

While looking at the above examples, I noted that my preferences seem to be based on trying to 'regularize' the verbs based on their present tense form. For example, I would say I am spelling the words, never spelting. I am diving into the pool, never doving. I am leaning; never lenting.

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking
Updated:

@ustourist

Trying to find a single, universal rule is a rabbit hole.

Compare:

When I proposed to my wife, I went down on bended knee.

I bent over backwards to be nice to your mother.

I think English English speakers would be apoplectic if bent and bended were swapped in the above.

AJ

Replies:   ustourist  Ross at Play
ustourist

@awnlee jawking

Agree totally.
The rules weren't any easier before the colonials got hold of the language, but there were less barbaric variations. ;)

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Down with all Limey Imperialist Pig-Dogs, too!


Despite all you have learnt, you don't come across as a learned man :)

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@ustourist

EDIT TO ADD - OH, MY GOD. I took care drafting a response to the first reply by @ustourist, and by the time I posted it there was already another ten or so comments.

I CONCEDE my initial post was full of crap.

I examined my Oxford Dictionary more closely for the verbs lean, burn, dream, and (God forbid) dive.
Its listing for those verbs are very different!

For lean it lists leant as "BrE also", and only uses leaned in its example sentences.
For dive it lists dove as "AmE also", and only uses dived in its example sentences.
However, for burn (dream) it lists two primary forms for both the past tense and past participle. They are burned and burnt (dreamed and dreamt). Its examples then show one form is preferred for some sense, but the other form for other senses.

So, my "rule" [up to about .v04 by now] is to accept my dictionary's primary recommendations as "correct", and to treat all region-specific alternatives as "wrong". When applicable, it does list different primary recommendations for BrE and AmE.

Following that rule would give:
- leaned is always correct (even for BrE)
- dived is always correct (even for AmE)
- burned and burnt are correct in different situations
- dreamed and dreamt are correct in different situations

But even I might break my own rule for lean! My dictionary does not give an examples using leant, but I am with you on this one, I would be inclined to use leant on something as well.

Switch Blayde

@ustourist

Switch - what about dwelled or dwelt? As a BrE speaker I would automatically use the latter.


I had to stop and think of a sentence where I would use that word and couldn't. I thought of the noun, as in, "It was a two-story dwelling," (is that even the noun version of dwelt?) but I don't think I would ever use it as a verb.

For what it's worth, Firefox flags "dwelled" as a typo yet dictionary.com has both "dwelt" and "dwelled."

Replies:   sejintenej
Ross at Play

@REP

Personally, I believe it all comes down to what we were taught as kids.

PRECISELY, so my conclusion is I should trust my references when they indicate one is used more commonly than the other.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

Sorry to hijack this thread, but it's sort of related.

Ever wonder what the difference is between "toward" and "towards"? I don't think there really is one, just a preference.

Sometimes one sounds better than the other so that's the one I use. So to bring it back on topic, I guess it's true for words like "spelled" and "spelt." Whatever sounds better in the sentence.

*shrugs

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Despite all you have learnt, you don't come across as a learned man :)

YEP! Still learning. Haven't figured out a way to respond to that one yet :)

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Trying to find a single, universal rule is a rabbit hole

I had already replaced my "rule" with I should only trust my references before reading that comment.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Ever wonder what the difference is between "toward" and "towards"? I don't think there really is one, just a preference.

I have rewritten this comment after checking the facts.
"Towards" is definitely more commonly used by both BrE and AmE.
The Oxford dictionary thinks "toward" is so uncommon it doesn't even have a listing for it. It just has a note suggesting only some Americans use it.
AJ's dictionary suggests its becoming archaic and only some British use it.

* Double-shrug

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

I guess it's true for words like "spelled" and "spelt." Whatever sounds better in the sentence.

I agree. I would say 'spelt disaster' and 'spelled out his mistake' every time.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

My dictionary lists towards as chiefly North American and toward as becoming archaic. So English English speakers are trapped between obsolesence and barbarism :(

Don't go writing anything untoward now!

AJ

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

My dictionary lists towards as chiefly North American and toward as becoming archaic. So English English speakers are trapped between obsolesence and barbarism :(

That is truly bizarre!
My guess is there was some sort of transcription error and their research department actually concluded it was 'toward' which was "chiefly North American".

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
Switch Blayde

Grammar Girl:

"Toward" and "towards" are both correct and interchangeable: you can use either one because they mean the same thing. Many sources say the "s" is more common in Britain than in the United States, so you should take into account what the convention is in your country, and use "towards" in Britain and "toward" in the U.S.

awnlee_jawking

@Ross at Play

No, 'toward' was definitely the original English English form, persisting today in 'untoward'. It appears that the barbarians across the Pond added the 's' and 'towards' has since been back-ported to the UK where it is in the process of supplanting 'toward'.

The first two pages of a quick SOL google search seems to show 'toward' being more common than 'towards', which I didn't expect.

AJ

Switch Blayde
Updated:

And from the Grammarist:

But while both these directional words are used in all varieties of English, toward is preferred in American and Canadian English, while towards is preferred in varieties of English from outside North America. These are not rules, however, and exceptions are easily found.

History

Toward is the older form. It comes from the Old English tóweard, which meant roughly the same as our modern toward.1 Towards is also old, however, as for many centuries the suffixes –ward and –wards have been more or less interchangeable and have given rise to parallel forms of many words—for example, backward and backwards, and forward and forwards.2 Towards became the dominant form in the 17th century and remained ascendant until the Americans took up toward in the 19th century.

This ngram, which graphs the use of toward and towards (as a percentage of all words used) in a large number of British books and periodicals published from 1800 to 2000, shows that the latter has been heavily favored through modern times, though toward might now be gaining ground.

And the next ngram shows the words' use in American books and periodicals from the same period. It shows that the transition from the now more British towards to the now more North American toward occurred around 1900.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Interesting. The Grammarist's ngrams (any chance of a link?) seem to confirm my google of SOL, but disagree with the Oxford English Dictionary.

I guess we're back to personal preference. It's not as if readers are going to be discomfited.

AJ

Ross at Play

I am struggling to ward a nervous breakdown here ;)

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

The Grammarist's ngrams (any chance of a link?)


http://grammarist.com/spelling/toward-towards/

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

I guess we're back to personal preference.


That was my point for bringing it up. Sometimes one version sounds better to my ear within a particular sentence so that's what I go with.

There's a sound to the words we write. More so in poetry, but true in prose as well.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Thank you, I had fun playing with the ngrams!

AJ

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

discomfited

Wow! In my book, you win today's prize for being a know-it-all arsehole hands down with that one!
It sure discomfited me!

First I look up comfit and find it means a sugar-covered sweet containing a nut or fruit.
I then look up the verb discomfit and find it is a synonym of discomfort - but on closer inspection - not exactly the same.
Discomfort was defined, "to make someone feel anxious or embarrassed" - but for discomfit that changes to confused or embarrassed.

I bow down to the master. You confused me absolutely, and it was the exactly right word.

sejintenej

@Switch Blayde


For what it's worth, Firefox flags "dwelled" as a typo yet dictionary.com has both "dwelt" and "dwelled."

Until finding this forum I had never properly looked at the sorts of points. Having had to learn BrE when I was nine I have always spelled a word how I speak it unless I know of options.
Dwelled / dwelt refers to verbs with two entirely different meanings:
Dwelled refers to where one lives (ie in a dwelling)
Dwelt refers to lingering thoughts - he dwelt on the concept before making up his mind.

As for Awnlee's quote:

When I proposed to my wife, I went down on bended knee.

I bent over backwards to be nice to your mother.

I think English English speakers would be apoplectic if bent and bended were swapped in the above.


I agree that apoplexy would be appropriate - bended is an adjective and bent can be a verb OR an adjective, the latter when something is out of true, smashed, damaged, deliberately deformed etc..

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

Side stepping just a little, a story I'm reading has a character say a line that stopped me mid sentence, it's You three have showed up at the exact right time. The story is in past tense, but in the context of the story the word showed in that sentence was very jarring, because (based on what I was taught) it should be You three have shown up at the exact right time.

The word showed is used more in the context of Ralph said, "I showed George how to tune the car." While the more direct past tense of show is shown as in - George told Fred, "I was shown how to tune the car by Ralph."

I can't remember the fancy term for it, but the difference between using showed and shown is based on where the context places the word in relation to the subject of the sentence.

typo edit to add space

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

The story is in past tense, but in the context of the story the word showed in that sentence was very jarring, because (based on what I was taught) it should be You three have shown up at the exact right time.


You are correct. It should be "shown" because of the "have" = have shown.

When I first read it, I dropped the "have" which made it: "You three showed up..."

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


You are correct. It should be "shown" because of the "have" = have shown.


It probably started life without the 'have' - I don't know. However, it was so jarring when I hit it, it threw me out of the story. It's why I worry about the use of regional word usage and try to use, as well as push for the use of, the more wider accepted word usage.

edit to add - It's not nice to be enjoying a story then suddenly halted in mid read.

Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

This is the key part of your comment. They may mean the same, but "dived" sounds wrong to many readers who speak AmE. So it does matter to someone speaking AmE.
When this first came up, I asked my wife about, "He dived into the pool." She made a face, shook her head, and said it sounded weird.

Can you ask her about these four sentences?
A. "He dived into the pool."
B. "He dove into the pool."
C. "He has dived into the pool."
D. "He has dove into the pool."

Let's discuss why when you report back her answers were that only B and C are okay.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Oh, she has a masters in Creative Writing and English Literature and years back was an English teacher.


Oddly enough, I recently attended a talk/book promotion by someone with those qualifications and more, but who now claims to be a professional author. Personally I thought the book he was promoting was virtually unreadable. It was full of what I'd consider to be schoolboy errors (eg subjects and verbs not matching, inconsistency of tenses within sentences, extremely long run-on sentences). On Amazon, his book has no ratings and no reviews.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking

@sejintenej

In that case, bended can also be a verb. Although I would prefer to describe it (and bent) as a past participle used adjectivally.

The top result of a google search states
"The definition of bended means to have curved or forced out of a straight position in the past tense. An example of bended used as a verb is the phrase bended knee which is the kneeling position someone might take to propose marriage."

Oh well, I might as well be out of sync with the whole world. :)

AJ

Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

A. "He dived into the pool."
B. "He dove into the pool."
C. "He has dived into the pool."
D. "He has dove into the pool."


"dove" can only be used for simple past tense so D is incorrect and C is the correct way to write it.

A & B are the two that I previously asked her about.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

who now claims to be a professional author.

If you handed over money that ended up in his pocket, then he IS a professional author.
Often, all that is needed to convince some people, often many, of something is managing to sound like you believe what you are saying.
Ask any living POTUS.

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

If you handed over money that ended up in his pocket, then he IS a professional author


or a professional con man.

I once knew an English professor well, and he said people who taught English at any level could be broken up into two categories that were mutually incompatible - those who can write English text books and those who can write entertaining stories. He felt if you could write one well, you couldn't write the other well, because they used different skill sets in the way you used the English language.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

"dove" can only be used for simple past tense so D is incorrect and C is the correct way to write it.
A & B are the two that I previously asked her about.

Agreed, but not quite complete.
I think that should be "dove" (some prefer "dived") can be used in any tense that employs the 'past tense' form of the verb (including but not limited to the simple past tense).
Only "dived" can be used in all situations that employ the past participle.

Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

Agreed, but not quite complete.


True. "Dived" can be the simple past tense. We were talking about what sounded right to the ear of someone who was brought up using "dove" in that situation.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

He felt if you could write one well, you couldn't write the other well, because they used different skill sets in the way you used the English language.

I disagree with that.
I have not read your how-to guides.
My guess is the skill set for good technical writing is a subset of the skills needed for writing entertaining stories, plus a capacity for logical structured thinking.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

None of my money ended up in his pocket.

Professional seems to have two senses. One is the sense of earning money at something, even if you end up out of pocket. The other is earning a living at something.

I'm pretty certain he doesn't earn a living from his writing!

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I think that should be "dove" (some prefer "dived") can be used in any tense that employs the 'past tense' form of the verb (including but not limited to the simple past tense).


Does that include adjectival use?

Is that a dived wreck? (ie a wreck which divers have visited.)
Is that a dove wreck?

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

Professional seems to have two senses. One is the sense of earning money at something, even if you end up out of pocket. The other is earning a living at something.


Even the second one is misleading now. Look at the Olympics.

Jim Thorpe lost his Olympic medals because he got paid for playing baseball one summer during college. They said he was not an amateur because he got paid — a professional.

Now look who's in the Olympics — professional NBA players making a living playing basketball.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

True. "Dived" can be the simple past tense. We were talking about what sounded right to the ear of someone who was brought up using "dove" in that situation.

I just learned something new.

There are 12 basic tenses. I thought there were other tenses that used the past tense form.
Not so, the other 11 all use the same form as the present tense, or one of the two participles.

So, what you said the first time was correct, and complete.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Is that a dived wreck? (ie a wreck which divers have visited.)

Is that a dove wreck?

Thanks. I tried, but could not think of an example using the past participle as an adjective.

I think "dived" is correct, and "dove" is wrong in that sentence.
I have found this quote from grammar.com at
http://www.grammar.com/Irregular-Verbs-A-List/

The word dove can serve as the past tense of dive. ... Please note, however, that the past participle of dive is always dived. Thus, you would not say, I have dove into the pond. Instead: I have dived into the pond

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

Jim Thorpe lost his Olympic medals because he got paid for playing baseball one summer during college. They said he was not an amateur because he got paid — a professional.

Now look who's in the Olympics — professional NBA players making a living playing basketball.


With a few exceptions, the US being the biggest, going all the way back to the first modern Olympics, most countries have given their athletes government jobs that they don't actually have to report to so they can train full time for their sports.

The ideal of amateur athletics in the modern Olympics has always been a lie. The the only thing that changed when the US sent NBA players for it's Olympic Basketball team is that the US stopped pretending that the Olympics was about amateur athletics.

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

I have not read your how-to guides.


I recently wrote a Fiction Writing Style Guide, and have now incorporated the three writing guides into one big guide aimed at fiction writing. It's with the editors and I hope to have it out soon, and it will be for free vi Lulu and all their partners like Apple, B&N etc.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

It's with the editors and I hope to have it out soon,


Do let us know when it's available.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Do let us know when it's available.


I'm not sure it would be appropriate to mention it here, but I'll mention it in my blog. Hopefully Lazeez will let me announce it on the forum, but we aren't supposed to use this for advertising. Part of it it is about preparing a HTML file for the SoL posting wizard which Lazeez has posted in the Author / Editor area as a help file - I just hope he posts it at Fine Stories and SciFi stories as well.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

Me : I have not read your how-to guides.
You: I recently wrote a Fiction Writing Style Guide

I was being ironic.
You mentioned a professor who says nobody can do both, yet you do both.
I think most born computer programmers who learn how to write interesting stories qould then have the skill set needed for good technical writing.

Ernest Bywater

Actually, the guides I write are not English text books, and would fall way short of what's needed for them because I write them in the wrong style for a text book.

However, the guides do have a much more formal feel and flavour to them than my stories.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

the guides I write are not English text books, and would fall way short of what's needed for them because I write them in the wrong style for a text book.

We may need to disagree on this one.
I am not convinced that technical writing cannot be well written.
I suspect your "text book" may be a rare example of good technical writing.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I recently reopened some festering old wounds here by suggesting writers who use AmE should prefer 'dived' instead of 'dove'.

Sorry, but "dove" is not American-English, it's a regional variant. Americans are more likely to recognize it than anyone else, but most will still be confused by it.

"Learnt" is similar, though I believe that's a time variant (i.e. it's been abandoned for a long, long time). However, neither is standard English anywhere.

ustourist

@Crumbly Writer


"Learnt" is similar, though I believe that's a time variant (i.e. it's been abandoned for a long, long time).

Since it was what I learnt at school, it wasn't abandoned that long ago.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Ever wonder what the difference is between "toward" and "towards"? I don't think there really is one, just a preference.

I ran into this in my latest story (used it in my latest chapter). "Towards" is definitely a regional usage, but they'd both be used in different circumstances ("towards" being a somewhat plural usage, though it can be used either simgularly or plurally).

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Don't go writing anything untoward now!

Please! It's "untowards". 'D

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry, but "dove" is not American-English, it's a regional variant.

Agreed. Some North American regions favour it, others not. But it seems to becoming more common across America and Britain.

"Learnt" is similar, though I believe that's a time variant (i.e. it's been abandoned for a long, long time).

I don't know about abandoned, but the use of all the -t form irregulars is already low and fading away.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

("towards" being a somewhat plural usage, though it can be used either simgularly or plurally).


Nope, they're identical. See the previous posts.

sejintenej
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Sorry, but "dove" is not American-English, it's a regional variant


What / which city or region would you define as using real proper "American English"? I see references to the Chicago school of grammar and then those who decry those rules so I am totally confused.

This is not a pure USA problem; all those countries I have worked in have local variations; one country has 6 different unconnected languages whilst, when I last looked, Norway publishes official papers in three languages (two being variations).

Edited for clarity. Also "whilst" is said to be wrong; is this Microsoft stupidity or simply ignorance?

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I don't know about abandoned, but the use of all the -t form irregulars is already low and fading away.


I disagree. A quick perusal of today's paper suggests they outnumber the regularised versions in the UK.

Is 'lost' being supplanted by 'losed'?

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

Is pigeon-toed 'intoewards'? :)

AJ

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

I disagree. A quick perusal of today's paper suggests they outnumber the regularised versions in the UK.
Is 'lost' being supplanted by 'losed'?

What I meant was when both -ed and -t spellings exist, the trend is towards -ed endings.
I find myself inclined to use spelled, dreamed, etc. more often than seems natural to me when I know readers will include Americans.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I refuse to write eg 'I buyed that off the internet' just to amuse the barbarians ;)

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

I refuse to write eg 'I buyed that off the internet' just to amuse the barbarians ;)


Good, because we barbarians would be laughing our asses off at you if you did.

Ross at Play

I was only talking about that group of words where two forms are both somewhat common, including burned/burnt, learned/learnt, spelled/spelt.
What I see suggests the frequency of use of -t forms by those who speak BrE is falling, but unlikely to disappear any time soon.

PotomacBob

The Dictionary of American Regional English says the past tense of dive today is either dived or dove, but originally was dived. "The modern dove is a new formation after drive-drove, weave-wove." It goes on, "dived is now uncommon throughout New England, New York, northern Pennsylvania, and eastern New Jersey. In a belt north-central and eastern Pennsylvania and along the upper Ohio, dived and dove occur about equally, with dive being more common among older" people. "There is not the slightest doubt that that the area of dove is extending itself into the South and West."

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@PotomacBob


"dived is now uncommon throughout New England, New York, northern Pennsylvania, and eastern New Jersey


That explains it. My wife and I grew up in NY.

sejintenej

@PotomacBob

The Dictionary of American Regional English says the past tense of dive today is either dived or dove, but originally was dived. "The modern dove is a new formation after drive-drove, weave-wove."

Interesting; I would not have used "dove" but there again I would never ever have used "woved" in respect of creating textiles or even weaving between vehicles etc.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@PotomacBob

There is not the slightest doubt that that the area of dove is extending itself into the South and West.

I have stated several times in these forums that if dove is not already more commonly used than dived by Americans it certainly will be within the coming decades.

My reluctance to accept dove faded away recently. I had kept on thinking of examples where it would always hit my Yuck-Button.

However, I noticed that it is only used for the simple present tense, and that never sounds awful to me. The instances that had seemed awful were when I attempted using it as the past participle, but when I looked closely, the references all specify that the past participle is dived, and dove is not considered an acceptable alternative, even by Americans.

One last point ... My guess is that even those who usually say dove will occasionally use dived especially for sporting contexts. I really cannot imagine anyone saying scuba-dove, or a footballer dove hoping for the referee to award them a penalty.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

However, I noticed that it is only used for the simple present tense


present?????????

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

present ?????????

Douché.

Okay. I meant 'dove' is only used for the simple past tense.

But, is that really an eight-question-mark offence ???

Edit to add after cleaning my glasses ... a nine-question-mark offence

ustourist

@Ross at Play

In the old days it was serious enough to have had you transported to Australia... ;)

PotomacBob

Language changes. Back in the Dark Ages, sixth-grade English teacher Mrs. Higginbottham taught that "'dived' is the past tense of 'dive'; 'dove' is a bird." But, presumably, even then, there was some pressure to switch to "dove" or she would not have been making an issue of it.
Mrs. Higginbottham also taught that the past tense of "eat" is "ate." Years later, I ran into a classmate who had become a journalist, assigned to London, and was invited (along with some other journalists) to some shindig at Buckingham Palace. He met the queen. The queen, he said, obviously did not study under Mrs. Higginbottham. Because in the receiving line, he said, the queen asked him: "have you et yet?" If it's the queen's English . . .

Replies:   sejintenej
awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

But, is that really an eight-question-mark offence ???


In view of its importance to the point you were trying to make, you're right - it deserved more.

Another example where 'dived' sounds right and 'dove' sounds wrong is in the past tense of the expression 'duck and dive'. Its original pugilistic meaning has recently been overtaken by a sense of less than salubrious entrepreneurship.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
sejintenej

@PotomacBob

Because in the receiving line, he said, the queen asked him: "have you et yet?" If it's the queen's English . . .

I very much doubt that; the word would have been "eaten". He might have had a bit of bother with the accent

Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


In view of its importance to the point you were trying to make


1. It's only important to the barbarians!

2. It is an obvious error, in the sense that anyone who tried to interpret my mistyping literally would not be led astray; they would know my statement contained some sort of error.

3. Didn't you tell me recently people concentrate more on the first and last words of sentences, and the first and last letters of words. I got those right. It deserves at a most a p?????t.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

1. It's only important to the barbarians!


It's not important to this barbarian.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

this barbarian.


You're a fan of BarBar's stories? Me too!

AJ

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