Forum: Author Hangout

I thought it's only practical use was for things like instruction manuals.

It's used in short stories all time.
It's also used in games like Dungeons & Dragons.

I'm sure Switch will have plenty to say on the subject.

I love discussing POV. :)
This should help:

1st
I opened the door. The room was dark and all of a sudden — BANG! I jumped a foot off the floor.

3rd
John opened the door. The room was dark and all of a sudden — BANG! He jumped a foot off the floor.

2nd
You opened the door. The room was dark and all of a sudden — BANG! You jumped a foot off the floor.

One problem I can think of with 2nd-POV is when the character doesn't match the gender of the reader. Imagine a little boy reading: "You put on a pink dress with white polka dots."

One problem I can think of with 2nd-POV is when the character doesn't match the gender of the reader. Imagine a little boy reading: "You put on a pink dress with white polka dots."

I don't know, I suspect there are quite a few little boys who'd enjoy it (but who's parents would boycott the publisher and demand the book be banned)!

As I understand it, in all 3 POVs, the narrator is speaking to the reader, and ...

1st - I opened the door.
In this POV, the narrator is one of the characters and is describing the character's thoughts, actions, etc.

3rd - John opened the door.
In this POV, the narrator is a person other than one of the characters and that person is describing the characters thoughts, actions, etc in either the Limited or Omni perspective.

I think I'm clear up to this point. However, I am still confused on 2nd POV.

2nd - You opened the door.
In this POV, who is the narrator and since the narrator is always speaking to the reader, why is the narrator saying the reader did something?

It's Mind Control!

2nd sounds that way.

My difficulty with what Switch has said is my perception of readers.

When I start a story, I role play it by placing myself in the story as the protagonist. As the story unfolds, I try to imagine my acting like the protagonist, and in part, I evaluate the story in terms of how closely I can identify with the protagonist. I suspect most readers do this, especially when I consider the feedback I get that tells me how my characters should have acted and what they should do in future chapters.

I don't see the narrator telling a reader how they are to behave in coming scenes for the reader has their own opinion as to how the scenes should play out. Then when a scene takes a different direction the reader will become frustrated. Of course this is probably why 2nd is rarely used and difficult to write in and create a story acceptable to the majority of the readers.

2nd - You opened the door.
In this POV, who is the narrator and since the narrator is always speaking to the reader, why is the narrator saying the reader did something?

Because that's the novelty of 2nd-person. The narrator makes the reader (you) the protagonist and tells the reader how he acts, what he thinks, etc. — puts the reader into the story.

It's rarely used in novels. It's more common in short stories and non-fiction, and as I said, using Dungeons & Dragons as an example, video games.

Here's an excerpt from a novel written in 2nd-person (Bright Lights, Big City by Jay McInerney):

You have friends who actually care about you and speak the language of the inner self. You have avoided them of late. Your soul is as disheveled as your apartment, and until you can clean it up a little you don't want to invite anyone inside.

I once did an SOL search on 2nd-person. Like you, I scanned several and gave up never finding one.

puts the reader into the story.

Thanks Switch. I think I understand it now. However, how can you develop a plot and have interaction between characters being conveyed by the narrator when the reader is the main protagonist. It makes no sense for the narration to describe the scenes comprising the plot. The only way I can envision that working would be to use 2nd to brief the reader as to what is happening and then switch to 1st or 3rd to describe the action.

It makes no sense for the narration to describe the scenes comprising the plot. The only way I can envision that working would be to use 2nd to brief the reader as to what is happening and then switch to 1st or 3rd to describe the action.

Talk about head hopping, jumping from 2nd to 3rd to 1st? Geez!

Talk about head hopping, jumping from 2nd to 3rd to 1st? Geez!

Nah. It's all in my head. No hopping. :)

However, how can you develop a plot and have interaction between characters being conveyed by the narrator when the reader is the main protagonist.

The same way you do it in 1st-person.

With 1st, the reader is living the story through the 1st-person character.

With 2nd, the reader is the character. If the reader isn't willing to do that they won't like the story.

ETA: Keep in mind, in 1st the narrator is the character. In fact, it might be easier in 2nd. I don't know if this is legal, but what if the narrator writes: "You don't know it, but Joe is watching you." In 1st, you can't write: "Joe was watching me" because you don't see him watching you.

btw, did you notice the novel I quoted from is written in present tense? I believe 2nd-person is typically (if not always) in present tense. Another reason it's used in short stories because present tense is more common in short stories.

That is not truly in the 2nd person either.

I don't know why you say that. It is definitely 2nd-person POV.

If the reader interprets those as meaning the narrator referring to themselves (the narrator) - and merely using second person pronouns instead of first as a quirk in the way they express themselves - then it would written in 1-POV with a very odd narrator.
I cannot be certain which is so without reading it.

I agree with Ross on this. Having written one story where the MC talks to himself (a technique for 'showing' what the character is thinking), I can relate. Simply placing "you" in a sentence doesn't necessarily make it 2nd person POV.

By the way, the story where I had the character refer to himself in the 2nd person, was one of my lowest rated stories. Readers just couldn't relate to him, seeing him as schizophrenic rather than quirky and insightful. As a result, I'll never make that mistake again. I also apply that lesson to using the same trick in a story's POV. Readers simply don't like it!

I once did an SOL search on 2nd-person. Like you, I scanned several and gave up never finding one.

We should probably point this out to Lazeez. If authors are unable to figure out what 2nd POV is, it makes the tag utterly meaningless. If all those stories are mistagged, everyone would be better off if the tag was removed (since no one can find a single instance of it's correct usage, and the overall use is so low).

Hint: Laz, I know you're notified whenever we mention your name in the forum, so you may want to look at this yourself. Otherwise, I'm hoping Switch and REP can document just how extensive the problems with this rarely used tag are.

We should probably point this out to Lazeez

I believe I did.

This is the problem

I agree that there is a lot wrong with that persons definition of 2nd POV.

The only stories I can think of that I've ever read that were second person were those build your own adventure stories.

You see a new girl at the bar, you either walk up, introduce yourself and face a potential rejection, or if you're annoyed by my cloying POV you can quit reading now and find a decent adventure story.

or you could try writing a technical manual about writing:

You write a novel, experimenting with 2nd Person POV. After completing 23 chapters, struggling to make the uncomfortable structure work, you realized you're forced to trash the entire story and begin again, trying for something that's readable. ;)

I recalled prior conversations about 2nd POV being rarely used, so I skimmed through a couple of the stories. In every story I skimmed through, the story was told from either the 1st or 3rd Person POV.

Which shows SoL Authors don't understand it.

SoL Authors don't understand it.

I know I don't so that is why I asked.

Since most of the Internet articles are describing POV in terms of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person verb tenses, it apparent that the people who think they are knowledgeable enough to write an article about the different POVs don't understand them either.

I think I'm getting a glimmer of an idea regarding what Switch and others are trying to say. Hopefully Switch or someone else can clarify what everyone seems to be trying to say in slightly different words.

I think I'm getting a glimmer of an idea regarding what Switch and others are trying to say. Hopefully Switch or someone else can clarify what everyone seems to be trying to say in slightly different words.

I don't understand 2nd either, and I'm a great believer in the KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid philosophy, so I stay with 1st and 3rd person because I understand them. I also know most readers understand them, so it means they can enjoy the story more.

How about writing stories in 4th - 19th POV?

No thanks, I'm still having problems getting out of 2nd gear :)

How can I change it?

I believe you can resubmit the story (or any chapter if it's multiple) and modify the story codes, removing the "2nd POV" one.

How can I change it?

Story codes can't be removed by the author. You'll have to request Lazeez to remove it for you.

BTW, your blog didn't mention what you were changing your name from. I'm enjoying 'Journey to Eden' and I'm looking forward to reading more.

AJ

How can I change it?

Go to the Authors/Editor page and click on Manage Stories.

Click on the story you want to modify and then click the Modify Codes/Genre/Rating selection.

Change the codes and save the new code selections.

Have you ever managed to delete a code that way? I thought it wasn't possible. It seems to me that Friar Tuck will want to delete the 2-POV code.

AJ

Have you ever managed to delete a code that way?

What REP described is how any author can change the3 codes for stories, add or remove any code at all. The process he describes will open a window where you add or remove check-marks for tags the same way as when you first upload a story. I use it to add new tags that apply to any of my existing stories

Have you ever managed to delete a code that way?

Yes. Before telling Friar Tuck how to do it, I verified it would work by deleting a code, verifying it had been deleted, and then readding the code using the same method.

Thanks.

I thought one of the FAQs said that wasn't possible, but I must have been hallucinating. Again!

AJ

I thought one of the FAQs said that wasn't possible, but I must have been hallucinating. Again!

Hey, hallucinations are where many of the best stories come from. 'D

We should all be grateful for the effort Lazeez puts in to making our experience easier. :-)

Not to mention a damn great selection of stories ever at our beck and call! 'D