Forum: Author Hangout

Authentic

awnlee jawking 🚫

I think I understand why 'authentic' is beloved by AI - it's effectively meaningless.

It can mean 'genuine', as in 'carbon dating and handwriting verification prove that this oil painting is a genuine William Shakespeare'.

It can mean a good fake, as in 'this is an authentic Melton Mowbray pork pie' even though it wasn't made in Melton Mowbray.

Or it can mean completely bogus, as in 'The Rajah Tandoori Restaurant provides an authentic Indian dining experience' even though the staff aren't Indian and the dishes were invented in Birmingham.

AJ

Replies: Michael Loucks jimq2 awnlee jawking solreader50 dookie awnlee jawking irvmull

Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

authentic Indian dining experience' even though the staff aren't Indian and the dishes were invented in Birmingham.

I'd classify that as a complete misuse of the word! Well, unless meant sarcastically, where positive statements are turned negative by intonation.

jimq2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

authentic Indian dining experience' even though the staff aren't Indian and the dishes were invented in Birmingham.

We see that all the time here in Phoenix. Many of the "authentic" ethnic restaurants are owned and run by people who never stepped foot in, or had ancestors from, the country it supposedly represented. The owner of a "Japanese" sushi restaurant is from Australia, and the owner of a "Chinese" buffet is Vietnamese. Of course, all the pizza joints feature "real" Italian food. I guess you could say Taco Bell is "authentic" Mexican food.

Replies: Switch Blayde Grant

Switch Blayde 🚫

@jimq2

We see that all the time here in Phoenix.

Like Nick's, the Italian restaurant in north Scottsdale (and I believe other locations). Nick is Israeli.

Great Italian food, by the way. Well, for me anyway. I was in Santa Fe once and ate in an authentic Mexican restaurant. It truly was authentic, as in how a Mexican family ate. It was nothing like the Mexican food I enjoy in Arizona. So in that case, "authentic" wasn't to my liking.

Grant 🚫

@jimq2

We see that all the time here in Phoenix. Many of the "authentic" ethnic restaurants are owned and run by people who never stepped foot in, or had ancestors from, the country it supposedly represented.

That doesn't have to mean the food isn't authentic (although it rarely is).

The biggest issue with producing authentic food, is getting the ingredients- regardless of who you are or where you're from. If you've got those, and have trained with someone from that region (or even better yet, in that region), then it's possible to provide authentic food from that region even if you're not from there.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Or it can mean completely bogus, as in 'The Rajah Tandoori Restaurant provides an authentic Indian dining experience' even though the staff aren't Indian and the dishes were invented in Birmingham.

I missed a trick there. I should have said Balti rather than tandoori because that was actually invented in Birmingham. However it's Pakistani cuisine rather than Indian. (Do Americans have balti?)

AJ

Replies: EricR helmut_meukel limab

EricR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

The only place I've ever eaten balti is the UK. I had to ask what it was. Seems uniquely yours…

helmut_meukel 🚫

@awnlee jawking

However it's Pakistani cuisine rather than Indian.

Authentic Indian cuisine? India has a vast diversity of ethnic groups, each with its own distinct culture, language, and traditions. This includes local cuisine.
The most obvious difference in the cuisine of the subcontinent is caused by religion. Despite the separation of the Islamic Pakistan and Bangladesh from India, 14.23% (2011 Census) Indians are Muslims.

HM.

limab 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Do Americans have balti?

Google says that I can get it 10 miles from here. We used to have a place called China Rose that sold teriyaki made by a Vietnamese family. The Bell in Taco Bell was a gringo (Glen Bell) Justin Wilson was not Cajun but he supposedly did grow up in the community. I have always wanted to get an interpreter and talk to the little old ladies in the kitchens who ruled with wooden spoons. Would my cooking be authentic then?

Hmm I'm getting hungry. Seeya, limab

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@limab

Justin Wilson was not Cajun

WRONG! Wilson was born in Roseland near Amite, the seat of Tangipahoa Parish in Louisiana.

solreader50 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Or it can mean completely bogus, as in 'The Rajah Tandoori Restaurant provides an authentic Indian dining experience' even though the staff aren't Indian and the dishes were invented in Birmingham.

Gosh, you take me back. I can remember in the 70s when we would fall out of The Fighting Cocks and then make our way to the Ladypool Road for "an Indian". But they weren't. They were all Pakistani in those days. Chicken Curry with Chapatis. The menus, with about 3 choices, followed the KISS principle. I just looked on Google Maps and my favourite place is now the "El Toro Steak House". How times have changed.

dookie 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Re "authentic" food, I would expect most purveyors of truly authentic foods in a foreign market to go out of business rather quickly.
As a Canadian who has traveled extensively and lived in Asia for five years, I have noticed that restauranteurs, however authentic they might be, have to modify their dishes to match the tastes of local diners, unless there is a large enough diaspora population to attract. Vietnamese food in Singapore does not taste the same as in Hanoi. Non-Cantonese food in Hong Kong doesn't taste like meals in Kunming or Chongqing. I've had Thai food around the world, often prepared by Thai chefs, but I still have to specify "Thai spicy" if I want something closer to authentic.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@dookie

I have noticed that restauranteurs, however authentic they might be, have to modify their dishes to match the tastes of local diners, unless there is a large enough diaspora population to attract.

That's why you get the most authentic Japanese food in Europe in Düsseldorf (capital of North Rhine-Westphalia) because the German and most European Headquarters of Japanese companies are located around there. To get the most authentic Japanese food there you still should look Japanese or speak Japanese or be accompanied by a Japanese.

HM.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I'm surprised a protectionist bloc like the EU allows the import of real Japanese ingredients.

AJ

awnlee jawking 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I noticed today the front window of a local fried chicken takeaway said 'Authentic Southern Fried Chicken' and 'Halal' :-(

AJ

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@awnlee jawking

the front window of a local fried chicken takeaway said 'Authentic Southern Fried Chicken' and 'Halal'

Hmm, to my knowledge 'Halal' is mostly about the ingredients and a bit about the preparation, so many dishes from local cuisines around the world can be prepared 'halal' without changing the resulting dish. Strict kosher would be far more problematic because of the rules about using ovens and cooking-ware.

I don't know if something in the recipe of Southern Fried Chicken precludes it classified as 'halal'.
Anyone here more knowledgeable???

HM.

BTW, my own experiences with "Southern" Fried Chicken are about 20 visits to six different KFCs (2 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 4 in Germany: Frankfurt/M., Schweinfurt, Fürth, Hof) with vastly different results.

Replies: awnlee jawking Diamond Porter

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I don't know if something in the recipe of Southern Fried Chicken precludes it classified as 'halal'.
Anyone here more knowledgeable???

HM.

BTW, my own experiences with "Southern" Fried Chicken are about 20 visits to six different KFCs (2 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 4 in Germany: Frankfurt/M., Schweinfurt, Fürth, Hof) with vastly different results.

My UK understanding is that 'Southern Fried Chicken' implies similar to KFC, and is about the closest they can get without violating a trademark.

Halal meat is unethically slaughtered, by cutting a conscious critter's throat with a knife while an Imam prays over it. Moslems are supposed to eat only Halal meat and, in the UK it is supposedly illegal to sell to non-Moslems because of the inhumane alaughter.

The UK Moslem population is about 5% of the total population.

Investigators found 95% of Halal meat was not slaughtered to Halal standards.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Halal meat is unethically slaughtered, by cutting a conscious critter's throat with a knife while an Imam prays over it.

Unless things have changed, that's true for Kosher meat as well. When I was a kid, I saw it done at a slaughterhouse. The animal does have to be conscious, but it's a humane way to kill them.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

but it's a humane way to kill them.

I understand there are 'expose' videos where it goes wrong, leaving a badly wounded critter struggling to get free.

In the UK, critters are stunned with a bolt through the brain. Goes wrong far less often.

AJ

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

This is an interesting topic. It turns out that many (but definitely not all) Halal certifications allow a variety of stunning techniques, including CO2 gas and electrical stunning. The key seems to be that, if the animal were not then killed, it would recover and continue to lead its life.

See e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8633638/.

Poultry is specifically mentioned as being appropriate for CO2 stunning in a number of sources, so 'Halal chicken' is not that farfetched for a restaurant. I've seen restaurants advertise 'Halal' in areas with only very small Muslim populations, and I suspect it can sometimes be similar to the way 'gluten-free' is used - a poorly understood term that has been conflated to convey some (often undeserved) notion of 'quality'.

None of this is to say that the chicken at that restaurant actually was Halal, that it was slaughtered humanely, or that the Halal certifying agency was a reasonable one, just that it seems plausible.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Grey Wolf

None of this is to say that the chicken at that restaurant actually was Halal, that it was slaughtered humanely, or that the Halal certifying agency was a reasonable one, just that it seems plausible.

From what I've read, the primary method for stunning chickens in the US is water electrocution.

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

That's mentioned in the article. As long as the chicken is capable of making a full recovery if not slaughtered, it meets the requirements for Halal (by the requirements of some Halal certifiers, anyway - the rules vary significantly by country and organization).

Diamond Porter 🚫

@helmut_meukel

When I was in the South (USA) many years ago, it seemed that many dishes were traditionally fried in lard. I don't know if that included chicken. Readers who actually live there may be able to address that.

Of course, KFC is not the same. I think they don't even fry their fried chicken any more. Kentucky is only mid-south, anyway.

Replies: jimq2 Rodeodoc Dominions Son Grey Wolf

jimq2 🚫

@Diamond Porter

I spent all my summers in VA until I was about 14, 79 now. Everything was fried in either lard or bacon drippings or a mixture of the 2 for flavor. When bacon was done cooking, the cast iron frying pan was drained into an empty lard can. I remember my grandmother's cook making biscuits with lard every day and using a small jelly glass to cut them.

Rodeodoc 🚫

@Diamond Porter

Peanut oil is another popular base for frying in the Southern USA.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Diamond Porter

Of course, KFC is not the same. I think they don't even fry their fried chicken any more. Kentucky is only mid-south, anyway.

My understanding is that KFC chicken is broasted. Broasting is a cooking method that combines deep fat frying with a pressure cooker.

As to the oil they use, in the US, most KFC locations us canola oil.

https://www.seedoilscout.com/blog/what-does-kfc-fry-their-chicken-in

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Diamond Porter

One thing that amuses me: I have seen numerous chicken places labeled as 'KFC' recently. They are Korean Fried Chicken. Apparently, that usage of the acronym 'KFC' is becoming quite common.

I imagine the Kentucky people don't like it, but they don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Grey Wolf

I have seen numerous chicken places labeled as 'KFC' recently. They are Korean Fried Chicken.

Those restaurants cannot have the acronym KFC on their signs or menus. KFC is trademarked.

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Apparently no one has told the dozen or so restaurants I know of who have been using it for years, including external signage.

I agree with you in principle, but KFC looks to be in significant danger of failing to adequately defend their trademark.

irvmull 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I've just discovered that in Atlanta, I can get balti (and lots of other such things) delivered to my home in a tiffin.

Only 2 days a week, however. Haven't figured that out yet.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Authentic

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