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Forced AI tag!

Zack_Caddo 🚫
Updated:

I'm new at writing erotica. For most of my stories, except "The Conversation" and my latest -"Larrin" - I wrote the core parts and used AI to generate the narrative scaffold to produce a full narrative. I would not consider that "AI generated," but I'm willing to accept the forced "AI generated" tag as about 40-50% of the text was AI generated [It is still odd to see "AI generated" given that almost all the characters in my stories are based on people that I know IRL. I even retained many of the names!].

But for my latest story, I purposefully wrote the ENTIRE narrative text myself, and only then used AI to polish the final product. Less than 10% of the text was even touched by AI, and those parts were simply "polished" based on my own original writing. It is a big stretch to call that AI generated!

I will give this benefit of the doubt: I find that my own writing style has been informed by how AI had adapted my earlier stories.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Zack_Caddo

It is a big stretch to call that AI generated!

Checking for AI Generated text is fairly expensive. We can't check each and every piece of text.

So we take shortcuts. If an author's 3 first submissions are AI, the author account itself gets marked as AI poster.

Once that happens, every post after that gets the AI tag automatically.

You can easily contact me about this subject.

I checked your latest story and it came back 60% human.

I removed the AI tag from the story.

Zack_Caddo 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Thank you, Lazeez!

I get that, but it would make sense to give authors a wider selection of AI tags; just like you do for "sex": none; little; some etc. So, something like: AI Generated; AI Assisted; AI Polished; AI Edited; No AI Used.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Zack_Caddo

I get that, but it would make sense to give authors a wider selection of AI tags; just like you do for "sex": none; little; some etc. So, something like: AI Generated; AI Assisted; AI Polished; AI Edited; No AI Used.

I had started with such a design in mind, but then a few authors kept turning off the AI generated tag and insisting that their crap was not AI generated when it clearly was, so I took it out of the hands of authors.

You know, it's usually the few that ruin it for the many.

We'll see though, if I find a cheap way to do the AI generation detection and make it automatic, I may implement an AI generation grading flag with multiple levels.

Replies:   madnige  TMax  EricR  LupusDei
madnige 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

if I find a cheap way to do the AI generation detection and make it automatic, I may implement an AI generation grading flag with multiple levels.

Your cheapest resource is your members - allow members (possibly premier- or paid-only to exclude bit-stuffers) to submit an AI score in the same way as the normal story scores. You may then want an additional account preference something like 'Treat non-AI scored as XX%' to take care of filtering newer stories, or preload the AI score with something derived from what you're already doing.

TMax 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

To add to the discussion and confusion, because apparently writers like to write....

What is the difference between using a human editor to check for grammar and sentence structure and using an AI (such as Grammarly)?

What is the difference between using a teacher, fellow writer, or friend to read the story for content, interest, and impact, and using an AI (such as Gemini or Claude)?

What is the difference between collaborating with a fellow human writer on a story and with an AI?

What is the difference between getting a human to write a story for you and then putting your name on it vs using an AI?

AI feels different, but why?

Of note: growing up with dyslexia, I have had a spell checker since they first made a portable one (as my awesome grade 7 English teacher told my mom - he can have a secretary - yeah, I'm old). Side note: Grammarly does not work as well.

EricR 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

We'll see though, if I find a cheap way to do the AI generation detection and make it automatic, I may implement an AI generation grading flag with multiple levels.

Good luck. My prediction is that it won't get cheaper.

1) Current LLMs are on the verge of being able to consistently pass as human, when prompted carefully. I have four chapters of a story written that each score 100% human on GPTZero. I wasn't necessarily trying to breach any AI checkers, but rather improve the quality of writing that the LLM produces for me.

2) Many really good writers use style that we commonly associate with AI. The AIs were trained on their writing. It will become increasingly difficult to figure out which work is written by a human, and which by a human driving an AI.

Personally I've stopped caring. I'm focused on the plotlines and characters -- their journies, their emotional states, hot sex scenes etc. I hope people like the stories, but if people don't care to read them because they don't like the tools I use, that's ok too.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@EricR

Many really good writers use style that we commonly associate with AI. The AIs were trained on their writing.

A feedback doom loop, humans trying to write like AI which is trying to write like humans.

AJ

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I hope we're going to get some really clever writers trying new things just to be different from the crowd. A modern analog to James Joyce, perhaps.

Diamond Porter 🚫

@EricR

When photography started capturing scenes as accurately as the best painters could (even though no viewer could confuse the two) younger painters invented Impressionism and other styles that looked more distinctively "not mechanical."

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Diamond Porter

Exactly. And when digital photography revolutionized the work of darkroom artists like Ansel Adams, it brought a renewed emphasis on composition amongst other things.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@EricR

I hope we're going to get some really clever writers trying new things just to be different from the crowd. A modern analog to James Joyce, perhaps.

Will anyone notice? With the overwhelming proportion of new literature being produced by humans and AI imitating each other, any spanking new contribution by original authors will be drowned out within LLMs.

AJ

LupusDei 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

It's past 3am so I won't go hunting for the link but last week on Twitter I saw a claim a study proven mathematically fair AI detection is basically impossible.

Or rather it's allegedly impossible to reduce false positives (100% human detected as whole or part AI) below 20% or so, or else, the actual AI detection rate rapidly collapse catastrophically, like, to reduce false positives to 10% you would have accept more than 60% false negatives (actual AI passing as human) or some such.

Interestingly, if remember it right, the false negative rate could actually be brought quite low, but of course at the expense of increased false positives, but not growing as rapidly.

So there's perhaps a sweet spot possible that actualy do detect over 95% AI as AI and "only" accuses one out of four humans as AI falsely... and of course, that's unusable the way institutions like education want to use AI detection, but what they (and us here) would want is objectively impossible as no false accusations mean no AI detection at all either.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@LupusDei

All AI models reach a point where they are as functional as the best humans. Image recognition reached that point in the mid 2010's, voice just before 2020 and so on. It used to be that oncologists would spend hours poring over cell micrographs looking for cancerous cells, but around 2018 (if memory serves) AI systems became so proficient that they were producing much more accurate results in minutes. The role of the oncologist changed moving more heavily to a clinician role rather than diagnostic.

Generating output is a problem that has lagged recognition (mostly because researchers didn't start to seriously tackle it until a decade after recognition) but it's on the same curve. We should expect the recognition of AI generated output to become much more difficult as the quality of the generation tools grow. The only solution, IMO, is some kind of watermarking convention where the tools embed an undetectable (to humans) signature in the output. Something like stochastic watermarks in images, but applied to text.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@EricR

The only solution, IMO, is some kind of watermarking convention where the tools embed an undetectable (to humans) signature in the output. Something like stochastic watermarks in images, but applied to text.

There is nothing of the sort that can be applied to text files. Sure, you can embed hidden tags in a Word or ODT document, but that's easy enough to eliminate by converting to plain text.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

Embed the signature in the words themselves, perhaps. Word orders or specific word combinations?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@EricR

Embed the signature in the words themselves, perhaps. Word orders or specific word combinations?

In a plain text file, anything like that would be easily edited out.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

It could be done I think. Worth investigating, in any case. Here's a concept.

The approach would be to treat this as a multi-generator linguistic watermarking system. Each participating AI generator would have a unique identifier and watermark key, and would encode that identifier through ordinary, meaning-preserving language choices such as synonym selection, punctuation, contractions, or sentence structure. Because the number of generators is limited, the identifier itself can be compact and then protected with error-correction and a cryptographic authentication code.

The watermark would be distributed redundantly across many locations in the text rather than tied to fixed character positions. That makes it more likely to survive routine edits, reformatting, small insertions or deletions, and partial copying. A detector would test the text against the known watermark schemes for the participating generators, recover the encoded pattern, correct errors, and report the most likely generator together with a confidence score and estimated alteration rate.

This would not detect all AI-generated text. It would only identify text produced by generators that deliberately implement the watermark, and substantial paraphrasing, translation, or adversarial rewriting could remove it. The value is therefore in reliable attribution among a known set of cooperating generators, not universal AI-text detection.

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

Anyone who knows how the "watermarking" worked would be able to edit it out of plain text files with minimal effort.

And you couldn't keep how the watermarking works secret,
because AI detectors have to know how to look for it.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

I envision many redundant signatures in a piece and a checking model to inhibit their removal. It wouldn't prevent someone determined to remove the signatures. What it would do is diminish the value of the flood of slop we currently see. The goal is to make detection more reliable than it currently is by reducing false negatives.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@EricR

I envision many redundant signatures in a piece and a checking model to inhibit their removal. It wouldn't prevent someone determined to remove the signatures. What it would do is diminish the value of the flood of slop we currently see. The goal is to make detection more reliable than it currently is by reducing false negatives.

I understand what you are envisioning. It simply won't/can't work the way you envision with a plain text file.

Replies:   EricR  EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

A good challenge. I might spend some time on this.

EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I've posted a short story called Steganography Sample. I posted it as plain text rather than the HTML I would normally use.

It uses a technique called linguistic steganography to encode a watermark. The watermark algorithm made 29 modifications as part of its encoding process.

It uses 3 encoding channels a) a synonym library b) function word replacement ("that/which", etc) and c) adverb / modifier placement changes. It also uses a shared 256bit encryption key to prevent spoofing of the watermark. I've been able to successfully recover the watermark despite minor edits with a reasonable degree of confidence after the edits. The version I posted was not modified by me, and has two poor substitutions, which you may notice. However, after correcting them, the watermark was still recoverable with the same level of confidence as previous, proving that that the outputs can be lightly manipulated without impact to the watermark. It won't protect against an adversary determined to defeat it, but it will identify AI generated text for most common use cases.

To make this work broadly vs the prototype I built you would have to implement a public / private key system so that detection could be open and broad but only a smaller group of encoders could write watermarks. You'd also have to build much more robust substitution dictionaries and semantic models to ensure meaning wasn't changed when the subs occurred. But I think the idea is not just plausible but also implementable.

FYI, I didn't know about linguistic steganography when I started playing with this, but it turns out that there had been substantial work done in this area academically AND there is current work being done in using LLMs to implement.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@EricR

The issue was never could you put the "watermark" in a plain text file.
The issue is how do you prevent anyone with access to the file as plain text from editing it out?
And the answer is you can't.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

Please - download the story, identify the watermarks and edit them out. I think you might be able to degrade it, but unless you do a wholesale rewrite I am skeptical you can remove it entirely.

Now, one scenario where they could be removed would be to ask an LLM to rewrite it. But if you did that, and the LLM was a subscriber to the watermarking convention, then it would simply write a new watermark.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@EricR

Perhaps it would be a more meaningful test to embed the watermark in a story less obviously written by an AI. So many of the word choices are weird that the watermark has an overabundance of camouflage material.

AJ

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Fair point. I literally jammed a concept into Grok, had it write me some sample material then applied the steganographer.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@EricR

I had a long discussion with Grok about this and had it look at my work, because I have a lot of quirks (including which instead of that).

Conclusion:

General lesson (not just you)

Function-word stego is fragile whenever:

β€’ dialect/style priors differ (US restrictive that vs freer which),
β€’ the cover author has quirks,
β€’ or an LLM was already biased toward one form.

Your quirk is a real-world counterexample: the channel isn't a universal coin flip; it's conditioned on the writer.

What still could work for them (in theory)

Synonym library and adverb placement don't care about your which habit β€” but those are the channels that determined paraphrase also kills first. The that/which leg was the one that looked "clever and cheap"; it's also the one that collides with human style.

Their detector walks expected choice points under a secret key. Once the surface text is no longer a light edit of their cover, those sites move, disappear, or flip for non-payload reasons. Light polish might leave enough of the 29 sites; a full Loucks-style rephrase usually won't.

They already conceded a determined adversary wins. You are that adversary with better style.

😎

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Interesting. I had a similar conversation in which the machine and I discussed customizations to the dictionaries. Grok told me that each of the approaches could be customized to fit individual authors quirks, as you put it.

Semantic encoding is another avenue I didn't pursue. In that model you embed the encoding in the meaning of sentences instead.

As I said before, there is quite a bit of academic study of this, Ace there seem to be some promising pathways.

E

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@EricR

I should also note that my goal in this is simply to take the debate about "what is AI writing" away. There are so many opinions. I'd rather just have it disclosed, and then have people focus on the story itself, rather than their prejudices about the tools. I don't particularly care what people use to write.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@EricR

The 'problem', if you will, is that some people seem to think that because I have a Grok subscription and use it for grammar-, fact-, and consistency-checking, building a story bible, and maintaining my wiki, my stories should be tagged 'ai'.

This is despite AI not writing a single word.

Fundamentally, ADS (AI Derangement Syndrome) is almost as bad as AI psychosis, and maybe worse.

Replies:   Pixy I
Pixy I 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I can understand their reasoning why. If Ai is proofreading, error-correcting (with regards to spellchecking), consistency checking, running a 'wiki', isn't there, in effect, an element of ghost writing? Or maybe it's closer to amanuensis?

I think their argument, is the fact that it's NOT YOU that's doing it.

One could counteract that by saying that when you hit a nail with a hammer, it's not you hitting the nail but the hammer, but no-one thinks of the hammer, only the wielder.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Pixy I

isn't there, in effect, an element of ghost writing?

No. Not one bit. Unless you consider MS Word's spelling and grammar checking to be 'ghost writing'.

As for amanuensis, I could see that argument, but I'd object, in that most people wouldn't consider it that if I used MS Word and a bunch of automated scripts I wrote to do the same thing.

A perfect example is publishing via Scrivener. My process is partially automated with scripts I wrote, plus Scrivener's automation for publishing.

In this case, Grok is hammer, screwdriver, and pliers; I'm the carpenter.

Replies:   Pixy I
Pixy I 🚫

@Michael Loucks

No. Not one bit. Unless you consider....

Hence why I wrote "an element of..."

Michael Loucks 🚫

@EricR

Because the number of generators is limited

For certain definitions of 'limited'. There are nearly 3 million models in the Hugging Face repo used by, among other software, LM Studio.

I have 8 different local models, and have them wired to Grok build so I can use them at the command line for things like building story bibles and bulk proofreading.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I believe what you're doing is different from bulk text generation, which is what this potentially might impact.

And let's face it, while there are millions of models in hugging face, it's a research hub. Text generation is a subset of what's there, and most of those models are not going to be useful to the ordinary person doing bulk text generation unless they're willing to set up a sophisticated local environment (which it sounds like you have).

This is targeted at commercially available tool sets.

Justin Case 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

Keep the "AI Generated" tag for sure.
It is a great help in saving me time. I use it to know which stories NOT to even give a glance at.

Authors/Writers who use AI are blood brothers with sailboat racers who would sneak around and use an outboard motor when nobody is looking.

It's not a "tool" or an "aid"... It's just a cheat for the lazy and talentless who believe they deserve to be "published" but don't want to (or aren't smart enough to) put in the hard work writing actually takes.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Justin Case

It's not a "tool" or an "aid"... It's just a cheat for the lazy and talentless who believe they deserve to be "published" but don't want to (or aren't smart enough to) put in the hard work writing actually takes.

I have to disagre β€” used properly it's an excellent tool and aid. I have grok proofreading, finding typos, checking facts, building the story bible, updating the wiki, and a host of other things.

What I don't have it doing is writing prose.

Replies:   TheDarkKnight
TheDarkKnight 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Probably most writers here lack the sophistication to use the new tools like you do, so in this instance I have to agree with Mr. Case.

TheDarkKnight 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

Damn, I just posted something in an A.I. thread, something I promised myself never to do.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

Probably most writers here lack the sophistication to use the new tools like you do, so in this instance I have to agree with Mr. Case.

Believe it or not, for all the writing work (not my tech consulting/server work) it required zero knowledge. I simply explained to grok what I wanted and it built it. We tweak it as we go along.

Literally zero tech knowledge was necessary. Yes, tech knowledge allowed me some shortcuts, but otherwise, just natural language.

Heck, it worked better than most interns I ever hired!

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Believe it or not, for all the writing work (not my tech consulting/server work) it required zero knowledge.

Not. You have good English skills. Many of the SOL posters who use AI (even if they're reluctant to admit it) have poor English skills and struggle to verbalise their wishes. That also means they lack the tools to tell whether AI has just generated for them the next Great American Novel or a bucket of slop.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Not. You have good English skills.

By 'knowledge' I meant tech knowledge. It's also the case Grok can speak other languages (and do so very well). I tested it with Swedish, Spanish, and Russian. Heck, it speaks better Russian than I do (which is akin to my namesake character's comments about his terrible Russian!

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

By 'knowledge' I meant tech knowledge.

So did I - technical writing knowledge.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

So did I - technical writing knowledge.

While it's technically true that literacy is a knowledge/skill, that's not at all what I was referring to, and it doesn't apply to the specific use I was describing, which was not writing prose.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

While it's technically true that literacy is a knowledge/skill, that's not at all what I was referring to, and it doesn't apply to the specific use I was describing, which was not writing prose.

So we weren't discussing your technical writing and we weren't discussing your prose:

Believe it or not, for all the writing work (not my tech consulting/server work) it required zero knowledge.

I think I've missed the third type of writing that you do.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I think I've missed the third type of writing that you do.

We're talking past each other.

What I meant was building the skills for the writer profile. That's separate from server/tech consulting.

In other words, I needed zero computer technical knowledge beyond how to install Grok Build to have it create:

1. A typochecker
2. A proofreader
3. A critiquer
4. A fact-checker
5. A story-bible generator
6. Publish to MediaWiki
7. Generate PDFs and ePubs
8. Rename batches (hundreds) of files

Deploying a server on AWS and managing it does take some tech knowledge (though Grok can do a good chunk of that with a simple 'deploy and configure X'.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

If an author's 3 first submissions are AI, the author account itself gets marked as AI poster.

Does that mean that if an author's first three submissions are non-AI, they're never checked again. It seems to me that some pre-existing authors have started using AI and are not necessarily using it unobtrusively.

AJ

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Zack_Caddo

...has anyone else noticed how it's the ever same five people vigorously and openly defending their use of AI for their "writing", and yet not one of their stories gets tagged for AI?

Can we please just accept that there's AI-Slop, and then there's stories. As long as your submissions pass as actual stories, stop arguing. Nobody cares how you created a GOOD story.
If it gets flagged, though, you submitted crap, whether you like to accept it or not. No amount of "where's the difference between using AI and using an editor" will change that.

And bad stories drag down the quality of the site.

EricR 🚫

@Sarkasmus

That argument says there is no need to flag. Good stories will get recognized as good stories. Right?

I've said before that I have AI generated stories with high-ish scores. Clearly some people enjoyed them, however they were written

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

That argument says there is no need to flag.

That argument just shows that the people using AI have still not understood where the problem with AI-writing lies.

The need to flag is for people who don't want the slop to appear in their feeds. Without the tag, they can't apply any exclusion rules.

And I don't doubt you have AI-generated stories with high scores. ...even though I have still not seen an AI story on this site with a high score AND a vote-count that should reflect an "awesome" tale. I mean, for Christ's sake, just take Megumi Kashuahara as an example. She just won the Clitorites for "Best new Author of 2025" (even though she's been publishing here since 2022 somehow), has ~500 followers... and most of her stories STILL only have between 20-50 votes. Even her own followers can't be bothered to leave a vote on all the AI-Crap she posted, and instead just close the site to look for something else, apparently.
But there are also people liking the ever-same AI-generated tales on YouTube disguised as reddit stories. Not everyone has a problem with AI-slop all sounding the same, and doing nothing but rehashing the ever-same plots with different character names.

But MOST people do.

*EDIT*

Smashwords, D2D, KDP,... EVERY publisher rejects AI-written stories and put measures to detect them into place. Why? Because ever since the flood of AI-slop books on Amazon made the news, book sales across the board went down by 12.7% to 21%. Because people don't want to pay money for the crap! And if they already paid money for a book, just to find out it is dogshit, they feel cheated and will look for a different store (if they try to buy any more at all).

Replies:   EricR  Michael Loucks
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Sarkasmus

Are you sure it's because they are discriminating enough to not want to "pay for that crap"? I would argue that what you see happening in the music world is a better analogy. Something like 70% of new submissions to Spotify were AI generated, which depressed royalties for all artists dramatically. Isn't it more likely that the volume of generated content is drowning out the hand written authors works? After all, very few written works rise to the level of truly memorable. Most are little more than 1960's era pulp fiction. And people, by and large, are content to read it. All art forms experience this. Why aren't there more art-house films? Hollywood wants moneymakers. Ingmar Bergman's films don't bring in the kind of money that the latest Marvel blockbuster can.

When craft becomes a business, mass production homogenizes the product.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Sarkasmus
Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

Something like 70% of new submissions to Spotify were AI generated,

From what I've read, same thing is happening on Amazon KDP.

When self-publishing flooded Amazon, it hurt traditional publishing. Now AI is compounding that problem. Even more so because an AI-generated novel can be written and ready to be published in a day.

I don't know if I've read AI-generated stories on SOL. I don't bother checking the tags for that. I know I hate purple prose and stop reading stories filled with it. I gather AI generates that flowery slop so maybe those stories I abandoned are AI.

But there are things in non-AI stories on SOL that I hate. One is poor punctuation which makes it difficult to read. I don't know if it's due to unintelligence or simply laziness, but I don't believe AI-generated stories have that punctuation problem.

And then there's horrible paragraphing. Again, I assume AI paragraphs correctly.

Another is transitioning. How would you like to read a story where two people are talking and then the next paragraph (dialogue) doesn't make sense. When you keep reading you find out the character is no longer where he was, but now in a car talking to that person or even another person. Yeah, I just read something like that today.

So AI may generate slop, but maybe it fixes a lot of the slop we see in human written stories.

I'm playing devil's advocate.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

If you're going to generate material with AI you have to pay extra attention to all the non-mechanical issues you just described because plot continuity, dialog continuity, florid prose, and transitioning errors can all occur in generated text. Paragraphing can also be an issue, as can predictable rhythms. But punctuation and spelling it excels at…

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

Are you sure it's because they are discriminating enough to not want to "pay for that crap"?

Yes. Because it's not an opinion. It's what customers have told online platforms about why they stopped paying.

Spotify is being overrun with AI generated music. Like you said. The part you didn't mention is how the subscribers are furious about it, and so many canceled their subscriptions that Spotify had to mark AI-Musik as such, so people can avoid it.
Same for YouTube Music, by the way, if you want to remain in the Music industry.
Or you could check out Steam, to see how AI in games is faring, where over half the users said they won't buy AI-influenced games, and the rest simply trusted the refund-policy if the games are shit.
And I don't think I need to remind anyone here about the 50% drop in sales on KDP last year, right?

We have customers avoiding AI-Products in the music industry, the games industry, and the book-publishing business.

So...yeah. The "authors" who use AI can bitch and moan as much as they want. It doesn't change the fact that more and more customers are avoiding any product that may is associated with AI, because every piece of AI-generated art they come into contact with is the same rehashed, repetitive, dull, buggy, slop.

Replies:   Michael Loucks  EricR
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Sarkasmus

customers are avoiding any product that may is associated with AI

Given most writing tools these days (e.g., Grammarly, ProWritingAid, MS Word) have AI components, how do you avoid association? Heck, BBEdit, a sophisicated text editor for software developers (which I use to write) has AI hooks built in, so is 'associated' with AI.

EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Sarkasmus

I think you proved my point. Spotify, despite a small group of vocal complaints relative to their overall subscriber base, hasn't seen a significant drop in subscriptions. Their response has been to deny royalties to AI generated content - what that means is that they are keeping the revenues for themselves. KDP has responded by enforcing labeling but not banning. More content means more gross sales for themselves, even if individual author revenues have suffered. Notably, neither have outright banned the content. They've responded in a way that allows them to say they are doing something without having to forgo the revenue they must be earning from these products. These are businesses that depend on small margins and large volumes. They are not traditional publishers that incur the expenses that traditional publishing houses incur. More material to sell means more profits. And most importantly (for human authors) they are decidedly NOT taking the author's side. The only business that I'm aware of that has taken a more decisive position is Tidal, which recently announced a ban on all AI generated content.

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

Spotify, despite a small group of vocal complaints relative to their overall subscriber base, hasn't seen a significant drop in subscriptions.

...they lost 25% of their user base in the quarter after the flood started, until they implemented the option to filter AI-crap out. Roughly 150 million users. The reason they didn't lose any Premium members is because they are paid for the whole month, so Spotify had time to implement their measures before shit hit the fan completely.The ones who had paid upfront naturally stayed. The ones who hadn't... well, they're gone!

KDP has responded by enforcing labeling but not banning.

Yes. As I wrote in the post you're responding to, there ARE people enjoying AI-Slop. And there's no reason to take that away from them. But all the people who don't enjoy it will appreciate the tag, so they can filter it out of their feeds and recommendations.

Kinda like here on SOL.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Sarkasmus

The presentation you provided showed MAU increased by a 10 million, not a loss of 150m. The loss you described would have been the biggest in their history, and catastrophic. Instead they describe healthy growth in both users and revenue.

Where are you getting this data?

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫

@EricR

Where are you getting this data?

From the sheets Spotify published and I linked in my post. Yes, the amount of registered users rose by ten percent. But the users didn't actually use the platform and just went away (without deleting their accounts), leading to a 25% drop.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@Sarkasmus

That presentation is an SEC investor deck. There no place in it that says what you have said, or even implies it. For starters, they do not discuss churn of any level, never mind 25%. Now Spotify's definition of MAU is very forgiving (if you login in once in a month and play more than 1 millisecond of anything you are counted as active), but the presentation contains no metrics that could be used to support your statement. If they had published Q/Q of any of these, that would be useful, but they didn't.

* total listening hours,
* average listening time per user,
* daily active users (DAU),
* DAU/MAU ("stickiness"),
* retention,
* skips per session,
* search vs. recommendation usage,
* discovery rates,
* premium churn.

What you provided as evidence was an upbeat investor report.

I'm tempted to believe that you're using an AI to find your proof points and it's hallucinating… but I know how much you hate the tech.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Sarkasmus

That argument just shows that the people using AI have still not understood where the problem with AI-writing lies.

And yours shows that you do not understand how some of us are using AI.

You can use AI without it generating prose. It's extremely effective as a proofreader and at building story bibles, not to mention fact-checking.

My setup today caught me having a doctor prescribe metformin a year before it was generally available. That's not something most proofreaders would catch.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Sarkasmus

and yet not one of their stories gets tagged for AI?

You know, maybe because it's only doing spelling and grammar checking, continuity checking, and building a story bible, not actually writing prose.

There's a HUGE difference.

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

You know, maybe because it's only doing spelling and grammar checking, continuity checking, and building a story bible, not actually writing prose.

There's a HUGE difference.

Dude, for crying out loud... can you maybe stop preaching how awesome your AI tools are for long enough to actually read my post? What I said was that, if you create a good story, nobody gives a shit how you did it, because there's a difference between AI-Slop and stories.

Or, maybe, think about why you have such a burning need to defend yourself for using AI all the time?
For your sake, I hope it's just your attempt to justify the price tag for a computer that runs eight local models, and the $300/month Grok subscription, all to "help spot plotholes".

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Sarkasmus

Or, maybe, think about why you have such a burning need to defend yourself for using AI all the time?

I did read it. You expressly whinged (yes) about people defending the use of AI, and made it clear you think even thinking about AI makes them an 'AI writer'.

For your sake, I hope it's just your attempt to justify the price tag for a computer that runs eight local models, and the $300/month Grok subscription, all to "help spot plotholes".

First of all, it's $30/month, $25 if you take an annual sub. Not that much more expensive than a Grammarly sub, and it does a lot more.

If you think the only thing I'm using AI for is as an editor/proofreader, you're dead wrong. I have over a dozen skills that help with various aspects of my consulting gigs, as well as acting as a research assistant for other tasks.

I run only one model at a time, as each has its own strengths. Once I have the local setup performing the way I want, I'll be able to ditch the Grok sub.

Your responses indicate you're freaked out about AI and appear to miss no opportunity to denigrate it, which is strong evidence of someone who is intimidated by it and thus afraid of it.

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

Your responses indicate you're freaked out about AI and appear to miss no opportunity to denigrate it, which is strong evidence of someone who is intimidated by it and thus afraid of it.

I give up.
I wrote twice now that nobody would give a shit about AI-assistance, as long as you don't let it create slop. As long as your story is good, nobody will avoid it just because you used AI for some part of it.
And your takeaway is that I'm "freaked out about AI" and am "denigrating it"? Yeah... maybe use Grok to interpret my posts. You seem to be troubled with reading comprehension.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Sarkasmus

I wrote twice now that nobody would give a shit about AI-assistance

I would.

Not for derogatory purposes but to further my own understanding of AI end products.

AJ

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Sarkasmus

You seem to be troubled with reading comprehension.

Not in the least. A simple read of your posts indicates the problem is you, not me.

Zack_Caddo 🚫
Updated:

@Sarkasmus

Are you addressing that comment to me?

I said that I accepted the forced AI tag on most of my stories because a significant part of the "scaffold" text was AI generated. I was complaining about the forced AI tag on my latest story because ALL of it was indeed my writing (without the quotation marks!). I did use AI for a final "polish" but all that did was some surface-level tweaks on maybe 10% of the text.

Have you read the story in question? Does it read like "AI generated slop" to you?

Replies:   Sarkasmus
Sarkasmus 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

Are you addressing that comment to me?

No, the board software automatically makes it an answer to the topic starter, if you hit the "Reply to topic" button on the bottom of the thread.

Replies:   madnige
madnige 🚫

@Sarkasmus

the board software automatically makes it an answer to the topic starter, if you hit the "Reply to topic" button on the bottom of the thread.

...which is why you should always use the bent arrow 'reply to post' for post-specific replies

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@madnige

...which is why you should always use the bent arrow 'reply to post' for post-specific replies

Unless you're replying to the general discussion rather than a specific one. Or even the original post.

I use the "reply to topic" sometimes.

Justin Case 🚫

@Sarkasmus

And bad stories drag down the quality of the site.

Ooopsie... too late.

James Foster Reed 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

FWIW, I just ran the first chapter of my latest story through the first seven AI "detectors" Google served up.

The verdicts ranged from 0% AI-generated to 100%.

Curiously, every detector that declared it 100% AI-generated also offered (for a small fee) to teach me how to "humanize" it. Apparently, nothing proves a story was written by a machine quite like declining to pay one to add human foibles.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@James Foster Reed

I've had similar experiences. AI detectors appear to be nothing more than snake oil.

dookie 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

Please allow me to add a new voice.

I was adamant that I wouldn't read an "AI-generated" story. Then I started editing for an author who generates first drafts of his detailed story plots before extensively and thoroughly revising and rewriting in order to make them read as human. I then review for continuity and the usual spelling, grammar and punctuation line editing. I also try very hard to remove the few remaining AI junk lines. The result has been gratifyingly high ratings for the author's books. According to him, his readers' comments are positive and deal with the story line and the technical aspects, not reflections on AI.

I now realize that AI is here to stay, and SOL is replete with AI-generated stories. Time will tell if it gets better. Unfortunately, like other technological advances, AI makes it easier to quickly produce products. The argument now should be about quality, not machine production. Artisanal writing will never die, but mass production will force us to be choosier about what we read.

Bottom line: choose your new reading material according to your taste and squicks. If you don't like the writing, stop reading the author.

dookie 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

Please allow me to add a new voice.

I was adamant that I wouldn't read an "AI-generated" story. Then I started editing for an author who generates first drafts of his detailed story plots before extensively and thoroughly revising and rewriting in order to make them read as human. I then review for continuity and the usual spelling, grammar and punctuation line editing. I also try very hard to remove the few remaining AI junk lines. The result has been gratifyingly high ratings for the author's books. According to him, his readers' comments are positive and deal with the story line and the technical aspects, not reflections on AI.

I now realize that AI is here to stay, and SOL is replete with AI-generated stories. Time will tell if it gets better. Unfortunately, like other technological advances, AI makes it easier to quickly produce products. The argument now should be about quality, not machine production. Artisanal writing will never die, but mass production will force us to be choosier about what we read.

Bottom line: choose your new reading material according to your taste and squicks. If you don't like the writing, stop reading the author.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫
Updated:

@dookie

Over the last little while I've come to realize that "AI-generated" means completely different things to different people. Some of that understanding has been the postings in this forum, and some of it's been private mail from curious people. So maybe it's worth explaining what it means in my case.

Truthfully, I don't spend much time thinking about AI anymore. I spend my time thinking about stories.

Every story starts with a story bible, and AI is involved right from the beginningβ€”not writing the story, but helping me explore it. I use it to brainstorm concepts, challenge assumptions, develop characters, map relationships, and work out who these people are before anyone writes a line of dialogue. I'm fascinated by how people change, and how they change one another. To me, plot is just the machinery. Story is what happens inside the characters.

Short stories go through the same process as novellas, but everything is compressed. There's less room for deep characterization, fewer moving parts, and simpler plots. The process is the same; the scale is different.

Only once the story bible feels solid do I start drafting. By then, most of the important creative decisions have already been made. The first draft is largely AI-generated, but it's generated from a story that's already been carefully designed.

Now, I haven't always done this. When I started in March 2025, my prompt for Absolution in Ecstasy was literally, "Write me a story that begins with the line, 'Fuck me 'till I reach absolution.'" πŸ˜„ The result was… okay. But I was hooked. Every story since then has taught me something. Over the last year and a half I've gradually built a writing system with 10's of thousands (maybe a hundred thousand!) lines of prompts, instructions, workflows, editorial passes, critics, and supporting tools. If you go back and read my earliest stories, I you can see the progression. They're much simpler than what I'm producing now.

One thing that's changed over that time is the role AI plays. People tend to think of it as a drafting tool. I increasingly use it as a panel of editors.

One of my favorite techniques is an adversarial review. I'll ask an AI to assume the story doesn't work and tell me exactly why. Is a character behaving implausibly? Does the emotional arc fall flat? Is the pacing off? Is the symbolism too obvious? Then I'll ask a completely different model to do the same thing.

They rarely agree completely, and I like it that way. It forces me to defend my own decisions instead of accepting the first criticism I hear. Sometimes they convince me a scene needs rewriting. Sometimes they convince me to leave it alone. Either way, the manuscript is usually stronger because it's survived being torn apart before anyone has read it.

Everything gets revised repeatedly. Dialogue. Characterization. Emotional arcs. Symbolism. Rhythm. Voice. Sometimes I even build new tools for a specific story. She Answered, for example, required a lot of work just to produce believable QuΓ©bΓ©cois English, and even then I still spent a lot of time editing it by hand. The first results were more a caricature than what I wanted.

None of that means the AI gets the final say. It proposes. I choose. Sometimes its suggestions are terrific. Sometimes they're complete garbage. Part of the craft is learning to tell the difference.

So when someone asks whether my work is AI-generated, I think it's a simplistic question. AI is involved in almost every step, but not just as a drafting tool. It's become part of how I explore ideas, solve problems, and revise my work.

Maybe that's where writing is headed. Maybe it isn't.

What I think, however, is that readers care most about the story itself.

That's the part I'm trying to get better at.

CreepyUnclePete 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

If the quality is there, at least to me, the source doesn't matter much, human vs AI. Assuming the story is interesting and exciting, of course.
I do NOT mean the ones with sentences three hundred words long, with thirty commas, and a dozen symbols humans never use.

I have started using AI, but create all the plot points and write at least 2/3 of of the words myself. When my AI is done with a chapter, the first things I do are save a copy, then search and replace every dreaded m-dash with a comma or hyphen.
I also make sure to give each chapter at least 3 editing passes before I upload.

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@CreepyUnclePete

Assuming the story is interesting and exciting, of course.

Depends what you mean by exciting. AI at its worst tries to make every sentence exciting, and it's like being smacked on the head with a 2 by 4 all the time.

I really wanted to like G. Younger's 'Seeds and Ash'. It's science Fiction/Horror with a compelling plot (so just up my street), but the AI has gone so over-the-top it's almost unreadable. And the similes are atrocious; a simile is suppose to clarify a complex situation by reducing it to a simpler one, but if you actually stop to think about them, many of them are gobbledegook.

AJ

Replies:   Mat Twassel  Pixel
Mat Twassel 🚫

@awnlee jawking

a simile is suppose to clarify a complex situation by reducing it to a simpler one, but if you actually stop to think about them, many of them are gobbledegook.

When used judiciously, over-the-top similes can be exceptionally entertaining. If you haven't already, please read some of the novels by Tom Robbins. Another Roadside Attraction is a good place to start.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Mat Twassel

When used judiciously, over-the-top similes can be exceptionally entertaining.

That's what metaphors are for.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's what metaphors are for.

A simile is a type of metaphor. Both compare two things, but a simile does it with "like" or "as" while a metaphor does not.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

As far as I can determine, it's division by a common language. The Concise Oxford Dictionary, back to the early sixties, is clear that they're different objects, which is an accord with what I was taught at school.

But the language of an early sixties American publication implies the two terms are interchangeable and the current Merriam Webster (spit!) includes metaphor as a superclass with two members, metaphor and simile.

Wikipedia (spit!) says there are two camps, one with similes as separate from metaphors and one with similes as a subset of metaphors.

I see no reason to change my opinion - they serve two different functions. A simile implies literal link(s) between the items being compared and is used for clarification (except when used by AI, but how would it know what the links are?) whereas a metaphor is purely figurative, should have no such links, and is used to add colour.

AJ

Pixel 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Have you read his "The Space Between Rooms"? It's fairly different to most of his earlier work, and I consider it among his 3 or 4 best. I really liked "Seeds and Ash" myself.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixel

"no matching entries" :-(

Has it been deleted from SOL?

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@CreepyUnclePete

If the quality is there, at least to me, the source doesn't matter much, human vs AI.

And if the quality isn't there, I still don't care about the source. Slop is slop regardless of how it was made.

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@CreepyUnclePete

the first things I do are save a copy, then search and replace every dreaded m-dash with a comma or hyphen.

I have 45,767 (as of a few seconds ago) em dashes (in about 16,000,000 words. All of it written by me, most before OpenAI released ChatGPT.

Em dashes were used by writers long before AI discovered them.

irvmull 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

"Seeds and Ash" by G Younger isn't tagged AI.

If it isn't AI, then someone trying very hard to emulate an AI wrote it, because it isn't at all like his previous work.

Authors that we enjoy reading have a "style".

CMSix (RIP) and Awnlee Jawking could take the exact same list of characters, same plot, write a story, and you KNOW you could tell which story was written by which writer, after reading just a few paragraphs.

AI stories have their own "style". So do annual reports. They're both signed by someone. In both cases, no one really cares who signed it.

And even the best annual report writer in the world doesn't have a fan club, eagerly awaiting his or her next epic.

A person who had never read a G Younger story might think "Seeds and Ash" is OK, even though many things don't make sense, including the science and the human interactions.

But for those who were expecting more good writing from a known author, you quickly begin to feel like the fat man who ordered a slab of apple pie, and instead got a lecture on how to derive pi.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@irvmull

But for those who were expecting more good writing from a known author,

G. Younger writing in native mode is one of the best writers on the site - witness all the awards and competition wins. I believe he has experimented with AI before, in 'Boots Guy' (and possibly others, but not, as far as I can tell, the stupid boy stories) - and it worked well IMO.

But somehow Seeds and Ash seems to have run away from him.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@irvmull

And even the best annual report writer in the world doesn't have a fan club, eagerly awaiting his or her next epic.

Did you forget the shareholders? Or fund managers?

Replies:   irvmull
irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Well, that makes no sense.

Shareholders and fund managers could care less about who writes the annual report.

Unless the writer is a known crook who will "cook the books" to their detriment, of course.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@irvmull

Unless the writer is a known crook who will "cook the books" to their detriment, of course.

That reminds me, whatever happened to Arthur Andersen?

AJ

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@Zack_Caddo

Honest personal opinion:

Letting AI write a story is like me snapping a photo of the Mona Lisa, hanging it on the wall, and claiming I'm a great artist.

Having AI "help" write the story is like me buying some paint and canvas, drawing a rough sketch of a girl, and subbing out the real painting work to someone who has good brush technique but no color sense. And had never seen a girl in real life.

jimq2 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

From a post on LinkedIn:

The underlying purpose of AI is to allow wealth to access skill while removing from the skilled the ability to access wealth.

I've never seen it described so incisively.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@jimq2

From a post on LinkedIn:

The underlying purpose of AI is to allow wealth to access skill while removing from the skilled the ability to access wealth.

I've never seen it described so incisively.

I'm not sure that's true, given my experience over the past 10 days using an LLM to spin up a new server to replace two EOL servers, then spin up a second server to provide another set of services.

No tech skills of any kind were necessary. Yes, my background made it easier to explain what I wanted, but the LLM did 200 hours of work in less than 20. I also had it create a natural-language admin interface to make it easier to manage those servers.

The cost was about an hour at my hourly consulting rate and about four hours of my time for 200 hours of work.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

No tech skills of any kind were necessary.

That's kind of the point. No skills are necessary if you're wealthy enough to pay AI to do it for you.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's kind of the point. No skills are necessary if you're wealthy enough to pay AI to do it for you.

True for computers when they first arrived, and telephones, and steam engines, and…

The point is, it always starts that way. An IBM PC was in the $3-$5K range when it first came out (depending on config) and my $600 watch has FAR more computing power, as does the average $75 Android phone.

This is how it always starts. And there is always a panic. Always.

See:

- Technology-Driven Moral Panics

There are always new jobs. Always. See:

- Meta and Google Commit $265 Million on Electricians, Carpenters Building Data Centers

And it can pay for itself in spades. See:

- Solo founders are using AI to do the work of entire teamsβ€”but going it alone has limits

The point is, this is a technological revolution like every other one in the past. The price WILL come down. To wit:

- Why Are Chinese Open-Weight AI Models Closing the Gap With U.S. Labs?

FUD, fear of the unknown, and lack of understanding are normal in revolutions. We ned to get past those. And quickly.

jimq2 🚫
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

the average $75 Android phone.

Where do you find an Android phone for $75? I'm looking for a new one and I am seeing prices from $800 to $1500.

And my current phone has more computing power than you could have fit in a 30' X 30' room in 1965.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@jimq2

Just as a quick test, I went to Walmart and searched 'Android phone'. The first result was a Samsung Galaxy A16 5G 128GB prepaid phone for $49.88.

The next three hits were all under $30.

A Galaxy A16 has a Geekbench 6 (multicore) score of about 2000. An original IBM PC is estimated to have a Geekbench score of about 0.01 to 0.05.

Which fits right along with your observation about phones vs 1960s mainframes. The performance differences are nearly absurd.

Diamond Porter 🚫

@jimq2

I have a remote control for my light switch that probably has more computing power than a 1965 computer, and it isn't even a "smart" light switch.

To the best of my memory, a computer that filled a 30'x30' room (10m x 10m) in 1965 would have about 4 K of RAM and its single CPU had a processing speed that was measured in kops (1000's of operations per second).

In the late 60s, my aunt started a new job with a very large financial company with a brand new, top-of-the-line computer that had 8 K of RAM, twice what most other companies had. It probably filled a room about that size.

I also seem to remember the measurement of processing speed progressing from kops to mips (millions of instructions per second) in the late 1970s.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  jimq2
Switch Blayde 🚫

@Diamond Porter

in 1965 would have about 4 K of RAM and its single CPU

Actually, the mainframe computers had magnetic core in 1965. RAM came later, in the 1970s (IBM System/370s).

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I would consider magnetic core memory to be 'RAM'. It's still a Random Access Memory. It's just not 'semiconductor RAM'.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Grey Wolf

I would consider magnetic core memory to be 'RAM'. It's still a Random Access Memory. It's just not 'semiconductor RAM'.

Absolutely true. Magnetic-core memory is random access. It replaced relays and delay lines (among other ways of storing data).

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

I would consider magnetic core memory to be 'RAM'. It's still a Random Access Memory. It's just not 'semiconductor RAM'.

No, core is not memory. For example, when the computer crashes you lose what's in memory. But not what's in core.

madnige 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

No, core is not memory.

So why was it called core memory? Why is a diagnostic copy of memory contents on error traditionally called a core dump? Why did the 1kbit (512 words at 16 bits wide) of memory I bought in about 1976 have one of the 5 stacked 5x9" PCBs having an array of ferrite beads - called cores, as they were also used as the core of pulse transformers, which core memory is just an array of (the material was chosen/tweaked to give a wide hysteresis loop, so the magnetism forced into it by the drive wires would be stable and remain under no-power conditions, forming one bit of memory per core; it was read by writing a '0' state and detecting the tiny pulses on the sense lines of the cores which were previously in the '1' state, then of course you had to write back the states they were in before you read them). The key feature of core memory was that it was random access, but much cheaper than semiconductor 'register' memory; it was more expensive than contemporary cheap (for the time) serial access memory like disk or drum drives, or mercury acoustic delay lines; for example Core is mentioned in the famous 'Story of Mel' as being too expensive, but with core you could get the data 'right now' -- the memory I bought was described as 'fast access' (at 3us read and 6us cycle) which it was, compared to the about 16ms access time for rotating magnetics.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@madnige

So why was it called core memory?

It wasn't. The term memory wasn't used back then. Only core. And I remember the core dump well. We never called it a memory dump.

Maybe today people call it core memory, but back then it was simply core. There was no such thing as memory.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Switch Blayde

No, core is not memory.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Spectacularly wrong.

It WAS memory. It simply wasn't volatile, you know, like ROM β€” Read Only Memory β€” which maintains its contents without power.

The same goes for relays and delay lines, both of which I mentioned in my post above.

Replies:   madnige  Switch Blayde  EricR
madnige 🚫
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

The same goes for relays

Actually, you can get bistable relays, where an internal magnet holds the relay in position - but it's more complex than just adding a magnet, requiring set and reset coils, or a special bipolar driver. I don't know if these were ever used as computer memory elements, but if they were, they would have been quickly superseded by core memory being smaller, cheaper, faster, lower power, and more memory.

Does anyone here remember 'bubble memory'? Anyone here ever seen delay line memory? Both these technologies were serial access, not RAM, which is why core replaced the latter (whereas bubble memory lost out as the improving semiconductor non-vol memory outpaced it in the metrics above for core vs. relays, as well as being serial rather than random access).

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@madnige

Does anyone here remember 'bubble memory'?

I remember something a bit like a PCB, holding laughably small amounts of memory, but at least it was persistent.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Michael Loucks

It WAS memory.

As I said in my previous post, the term "memory" didn't come until later. I programmed the IBM 360s. IBM called it core. We all did. No one called it memory or core memory.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Switch Blayde

As I said in my previous post, the term "memory" didn't come until later. I programmed the IBM 360s. IBM called it core. We all did. No one called it memory or core memory.

But, you see, your ORIGINAL post said:

No, core is not memory. For example, when the computer crashes you lose what's in memory. But not what's in core.

You claimed core was not memory. It IS memory. Period. Handwaving can't make your clearly erroneous statement go away.

Not to mention, Alan Turing used `memory` in 1936, and then the term was applied to EDVAC (1945), vacuum tubes (1947), and, wait for it, to Project Whirlwind in the early 1950s. Project Whirlwind developed core memory.

The terms 'storage' and 'memory were interchangeable in those days (when 'mass storage' was generally Hollerith cards or magnetic tape).

But the idea that it wasn't called 'memory' you are pushing is ahistorcal.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@Michael Loucks

You claimed core was not memory. It IS memory.

I can only say what I knew back then. What IBM called it. When RAM came about (I think with the IBM 370s) I had to learn to call "core" "memory." Why would I have had to learn to call it memory if it already was called that?

I stand by my experience.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I stand by my experience.

Anecdotes are not data. That's one of the first rules of reporting.

Your claim was blanket, not qualified. Now you're backpeddling and doing your damndest to avoid admitting you were dead wrong when you said, and I'm quoting you here again:

No, core is not memory.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@Michael Loucks

*throwing my hands up*
I stand by what I said based on my experience.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I stand by what I said based on my experience.

And I stand by this being an anecdotal fallacy or illicit universal generalization, aka the "If it's true for me, it must be true for everyone" fallacy.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Seconding this: from a Computer Science standpoint, 'core' is absolutely 'memory'. There's not one 'standard' definition, but the 'textbook definition' is likely going to be along the lines of: 'Memory is the component of a computer that makes data and instructions available for quick access.' Access time matters, because otherwise 'storage' would equal 'memory'. Memory can, obviously, still be tiered.

Von Neumann is credited as the first person to use the term 'memory' with respect to computers (in 1945, in his 'First Draft on a report on EDVAC'). A couple of quotes:

"The device requires a considerable memory. While it appeared that various parts of this memory have to perform functions which differ somewhat in their nature and considerably in their purpose, it is nevertheless tempting to treat the entire memory as one organ, and to have its parts even as interchangeable as possible for the various functions enumerated above." (Sec. 2.5)

"The orders which are received by CC come from M, i.e. from the same place where the numerical material is stored." (Sec. 14.0)

M, in the second quote, is 'memory' from the first.

It's worth noting that ROM is also memory. It's read-only, but it's memory. You don't lose it on a crash or reboot.

If 'core' were not a type of 'memory', what on the 360 would be 'memory'? Just the registers? You can't execute programs from the registers. So, core meets the Von Neumann definition of 'memory', which greatly predates the 360.

The contrarian argument is that IBM itself did not use the term 'memory,' but rather the term 'main storage.' 'Main storage' was the thing that held data and instructions for execution. But that's synonymous with the Von Neumann definition of 'memory.'

By analogy, do Dell systems not have a 'motherboard' because Dell uses the term 'planar'?

IBM today uses the word 'memory' to describe the 360: https://www.ibm.com/history/system-360

By this point, we're definitely at some level of pedantry, granted. But I'm still not sure what 'core' could be, in CS terms, if not 'memory'. If the argument is simply that it was not called 'memory' by IBM, that's fine, and I agree. But, functionally, it did the things 'memory' does in current parlance, and nothing else in the 360 did the things 'memory' does.

EricR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Absolutely. EEPROM, CMOS flash, ferrite cores - all examples of NVRAM. NVDIMMs are another category, just in a DIMM form factor.

Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

NVRAM is both 'RAM' and 'Memory'. It's also non-volatile (the NV part). You don't lose it when the computer crashes.

Volatility is not an essential element in either being 'RAM' or 'Memory', in other words.

As EricR mentioned, NVDIMMs are a very interesting example of NVRAM, one in which some or all of the 'RAM' on a computer can be non-volatile.

Many RAID controllers also contain battery-backed non-volatile RAM that is not lost on a crash or power failure. Loss of data in that RAM is very, very bad. It's still RAM and still memory.

jimq2 🚫

@Diamond Porter

Around 1980 when I started hauling them, an IBM 256K hard drive was about 32" wide, 40" deep, and about 5' tall, with 12-16" set down into the raised floor. They weighted in the vicinity of 700-1200#. Most of the weight was a balance-weight to help absorb any vibrations in the building.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@jimq2

In the 1970's the Xerox Sigma IX that I learned to program on had 64K of core, plus a massive single platter disk as extended memory - a dedicated swap file, essentially.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Michael Loucks

This is about where I am on it, with some caveats. Someone skilled at paper spreadsheets could easily have argued that computer spreadsheets allowed people to access their skills while removing their ability to profit from their skills. There are plenty of analogous changes.

Current LLMs differ somewhat in that they're general-purpose. You can access a wide range of skills, and they get in the way of people being able to profit from those skills to varying extents.

If I were an IT tech with the skills to spin up those servers (I may well have those skills, but 'server' is vague enough that I may well not, too), I would be very nervous, because my hard-learned skills will become obsolete. That's true across a wide range of 'programming' disciplines (taking a very broad view of what 'programming' is).

I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence that people with considerable experience are going through hundreds or thousands of interviews with no offers. It feels like I picked the right point to head into early retirement, because there are few jobs out there that fit my specialization in the best case and there's virtually no chance of switching specializations right now.

The big question is: what new and unexpected sorts of jobs will this enable (because, I agree - there will always be new jobs)? I don't actually count data center construction jobs (or even data center operation jobs) as being all that meaningful. Construction jobs tend to be time-limited and require very different skill sets (and, often, physical abilities) than e.g. programming, IT support, etc. And most large datacenters have very small support teams.

But there will be other jobs. The questions are: what will they be, and are they a 'good thing?' If the new jobs are 'AI prompt engineer for novels', 'AI prompt engineer for music', and so forth, are we losing something?

One thing that I find interesting is that this may be a place where, again, speculative fiction got it wrong. Most post-scarcity fiction assumes a society where, with material needs met, people are free to focus on creative endeavours. If the market for creative works is saturated by the very technology that creates the post-scarcity environment, though, what then? One can still be creative, but if no one enjoys what you're doing, that sounds very lonely. Or will we have loyal AI-bot readers praising human-generated works, just as we have the burgeoning market for AI companions?

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Grey Wolf

I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence that people with considerable experience are going through hundreds or thousands of interviews with no offers.

Pretty much true in every technological revolution. Part of the problem is that, for decades, we've denigrated the trades and done everything possible to discourage people from entering them.

There are myriad other problems, mostly self-inflicted, that may make this revolution even more brutal than some in the past. There is literally nothing that can be done to stop it at this point. Trying to do so will actually make things worse as other countries develop the technology.

All we can do is what we have done with every technological revolution β€” adapt.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

FUD, fear of the unknown, and lack of understanding are normal in revolutions. We ned to get past those. And quickly.

I think AI capability is still short of human.

A woman asylum seeker had her claim processed by the Home Office. The Home Office opposed her claim at an immigration tribunal and it was rejected.

With the help of an asylum lawyer, she immediately appealed. The judge accepted that the case against her was flawed because the central plank, a ruling that Morocco declared a safe country, was actually an AI hallucination. The deportation order was rescinded.

I assume you already had the technical knowledge necessary to vet your AI disc transactions were hallucination-free. Someone like me wouldn't have.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I assume you already had the technical knowledge necessary to vet your AI disc transactions were hallucination-free. Someone like me wouldn't have.

My AI interactions are hallucination-free. I'm not exaggerating. Combine a proper agent instruction setup and following a few guidelines, and you can, too.

The guidelines are simple:

β€’ Context is everything. If you change topics constantly, you increase the chance of hallucinations.

β€’ The length of any particular context matters. The longer the thread, the more likely you'll see hallucinations.

For example, the server work I did was the only work in that session. I worked from a plan (built by AI from natural language) and had it record and save status after every step. When the context was over half full, I quit the session, had it read the status docs, and moved on to the next step.

Most people think they need to keep the same conversation going to keep the AI's knowledge of the discussion intact, but they're fooling themselves because the AI will compact the context when it's close to full, and that's where errors and hallucinations creep in.

Don't use it like a continuous chatbot unless you're just looking for conversation. If you're doing work, you have to use the tool correctly. I built a series of skills, and I use them, watch the size of the context, and save checkpoints.

I've experimented with teaching Grok to write prose, and it admitted itself that it sucks! Not much risk of it replacing me anytime soon! On the other hand, as a former systems engineer, I'd be worried if that were the sole source of my income. I'm old enough now that I'm winding down my contracting work after a long career in IT; if I weren't, I'd be learning something else.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  EricR
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

My AI interactions are hallucination-free.

Unfortunately you're not the government, and their AI interactions are far from hallucination-free :-(

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Unfortunately you're not the government, and their AI interactions are far from hallucination-free :-(

Well, having spent six decades+ listening to politicians and being a student of history, I'd say hallucination is not an AI invention. Not even close! 😎

EricR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

My experience is that if you treat it like a junior employee, provide lots of context, detailed instructions, and supervise the output, you can get excellent results. The folks that use it as a substitute for Google, or as a chat bot with "intelligence" run into difficulty.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@EricR

Exactly right. I have a series of configuration files, profiles, and skills I've built over the months, which I'm constantly improving.

I ran an acid test today with the 'TechGuru' skill in 'emergency' mode. I purposefully downed a process on the server, then had my wife sit down and type, 'My email stopped working'. The skill prompted for credentials for the password vault, and once she typed them, it connected to the server, diagnosed the problem, then ran a series of checks before asking her to try again. Worked perfectly, so now if I'm incapacitated for some reason, she can use natural language to fix any problems (and yes, I've tested some complex, tricky problems it figured out).

As I've mentioned before, I've tried to teach it to write better prose but haven't had much luck. It's excellent at writing tech documentation and technical reports, but outside of that, it's only so-so, and admits it's limited skills in that regard. I write the cover sheet and attach the graphs, charts, and analysis it generates. That's extremely useful and a huge time-saver.

Bottom line β€” I've managed to gain about eight hours a week I can spend writing.

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Zack_Caddo

A poster design contest at the Ohio state fair with a $1,000 prize was won by an AI generated poster. They will be changing their rules for next year's fair.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Zack_Caddo

Does anyone here remember 'bubble memory'? Anyone here ever seen delay line memory?

Yes to both! I'm old!

That said, the delay-line memory was at a university as a demonstration unit at the time (but operating) β€” late 1960s in SoCal.

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