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suggestion: new rule about AI discussions

TMax 🚫

I have a suggestion for when someone posts anything about AI, have the following links:
1) link to discussion about em-dashes with link to what they are
2) link to discussion about authors defense of using em-dashes
3) link to discussion about authors defending something that they do that is not AI
4) link to discussion about general AI related stuff (off topic)
5) link to actual discussion of the topic about AI

Ideally, these could be auto generated via AI inserting the links as soon as it spots "AI" anywhere in the text.
Just to be safe, I would suggest instead of " AI " being used, use "*AI*" for the filter. With AI, you can never be to safe, looking a you SpAIn.

Cheers,

I apologize for the general lack of readability of this post, I didn't use AI to generate it.

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@TMax

Dude, we're supposedly all writers? Why would we need a link to know the basic rules of grammar? Should we also provide a link to commas or semi-colons?

If anyone doesn't know, it's easy enough to look up (if anyone still recalls how to operate Google) and it's about time they learned. No one is demanding they use them, but they are standard punctuation marks, it's only, like with ellipses, the punctuations marks are used differently in fiction than they do in non-fiction.

Again, it all seems like overkill for something that's a necessary requirement when writing fictionβ€”as anyone who reads fiction should already be well familiar with.

I know SOL has a lot of writers who hate being told how to write, but that's their own hangup, not anyone else's, and personally, I'd rather not be beholden the to dimmest bulb on the porch.

And for those who can't grasp a basic Google Search, just ask, and I'll be glad to explain how it works.

Everyone is entitled to be as insipid as they want, but it doesn't mean the rest of us, who know what we're doing, have to pretend to be as dim-witted as they are.

I've always written for avid readers, so they expect more than the standard fare, and they've rewarded me over the years for that effort. But we're all free to write whatever we want, without apologizing for it, letting the readers choose which they most enjoy.

Yet this whole "I'm insulted you know more than I do" still persists here. No one asked them to write as I do, and I've long ago quit commenting on the subject. But again, I'm not going to bend over backwards trying to pretend to be as simple as the simplest writers here. (Not that I'm publishing or posting anything anymore, as I get a much better response anywhere but SOL, which also reflects why there are so few stories I continue to follow here.

Some of do have standards after all. It's a matter of pride, not judgement or derision. It's who we are, nothing more, nothing less.

Replies:   Pixy I  REP  TMax
Pixy I 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Bad night?

REP 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Why would we need a link to know the basic rules of grammar? Should we also provide a link to commas or semi-colons?

When I started to write and post my stories, I did not know all of the basic rules of grammar, but I learned many of them. I still violate some of those rules so I use an editor, who catches most of my grammatical errors, thanks Jim7 and others that I used.

Crumbly, I understand that you still use and editor.

REP

TMax 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

Ironically (in the Alanis Morissette definition), I find myself constantly looking up comma, semi-colon, and colon rules...

awnlee jawking 🚫

@TMax

One way or another, we're going to have to live with authors AI-enhancing their stories. On SOL, some award and prize-winning authors are experimenting with it.

When you're reading a story and your gut instinct suddenly senses a 'wrongness', if the voice has changed, you may well have encountered an AI-written section. If you look for the AI-tells, they're usually evident.

Do readers have a right to know the author is using AI? I'd say yes. Does an author have the right not to be vilified for it? I'd also say yes. But given the current hostility towards AI, it's no wonder some authors refuse to admit it.

AJ

Diamond Porter 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I just searched. There are now more than 30 stories with the "AI Generated" tag that have scores over 8.50. I have read a few, and those scores are more or less appropriate. That suggests that some authors have figured out how to use AI assistance effectively. By comparison, I do not use AI and I have only once posted a story (under a different name) that scored over 6.00, and that one not by much, so I am not in a position to complain about the quality of AI assisted writing.

This raises the question of whether we should encourage this. Specifically, should there be an "AI assisted" category in the 2026 Clitorides? My opinion is that it seems reasonable, but there should not be more than one such category, and all the other categories should exclude AI assisted stories.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Diamond Porter

Specifically, should there be an "AI assisted" category in the 2026 Clitorides?

I think you'd have a tricky time defining "AI assisted" in a way that's fair to everyone. If management's AI detector says 49% for one story and 51% for another, does that mean that one counts as AI assisted and the other doesn't?

Also AI detection is a long way from being perfect - Michael Loucks has reported a false positive (and I believe him). The situation is akin to Olympic testing for drug usage: there's an arms race between the testers and the competitors who use drugs. And similarly, a story passed as clean today might subsequently fail as AI detection improves.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son  TMax
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

a story passed as clean today might subsequently fail as AI detection improves.

Or as false positive problems increase due to efforts to keep up with efforts to camouflage AI generated works and/or just improvements in the quality of AI generated works.

There are two kinds of errors, false negatives and false positives. And minimizing both at the same time is generally extremely difficult if not impossible for any kind of testing process. So efforts to drive down false negatives are almost certain to make false positives worse.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

So efforts to drive down false negatives are almost certain to make false positives worse.

I'm open-minded about that. My understanding is that AI detectors work heuristically, but our ideas of the differentiating characteristics of AI-generated output are relatively superficial. I assume sentence construction has been heavily examined (em-dashes, 'not X but Y' constructs, triples etc) but examination of actual word choices is an area that is ripe for more exploration. AIs seem to like words like 'honest', 'reliable', 'dependable', 'structural', 'integrity', 'trustworthy' etc, as they seem to appear more frequently in the output than they did in the input.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

My understanding is that AI detectors work heuristically

That they work heuristically is irrelevant. No matter how they work, minimizing false negatives and false positives at the same time is extremely difficult if not outright impossible.

You can balance them, but you can't push both to the absolute minimum at the same time. Push false negatives to zero and you necessarily increase false positives, it's unavoidable.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

You can balance them, but you can't push both to the absolute minimum at the same time.

I agree that pushing false positives to zero based on writing samples is impossible (some people do write using archaic language), but a lot can be done to reduce them while simultaneously tackling false negatives.

AJ

TMax 🚫

@awnlee jawking

To add to the confusion, AI is trained on old stories, so those all return a high probability of AI (looking at you founding fathers....we all know that you used AI to create the document of independence....)

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@TMax

To add to the confusion, AI is trained on old stories

Likely not just stories, but all sorts of non-fiction documents as well.

BlacKnight 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Do readers have a right to know the author is using AI? I'd say yes. Does an author have the right not to be vilified for it? I'd also say yes. But given the current hostility towards AI, it's no wonder some authors refuse to admit it.

If you're posting slop, you're not an author.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@BlacKnight

What's your definition of slop? Some 'authors' whose work shows clear AI tells despite being untagged get 8s and even 9s on those stories.

AJ

Replies:   Bondi Beach  BlacKnight  EricR
Bondi Beach 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Dear readers,

"Would you like to humanize your text?"

That was a solution proposed to the thriller author Andrea Bartz after she had put some of her writing into an A.I. checking tool. The program, Ace, inaccurately concluded that her work was 82 percent A.I.-generated.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/25/opinion/shy-girl-ai-publishing.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Z1A.aXEF.A-KC-WLgWYQR&smid=url-share

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Bondi Beach

Most of the article requires a login to read but it mentions an early version of ChatGPT so perhaps it was an early version of Ace.

AI is getting better and so is detection (although not fast enough IMO).

AJ

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Most of the article requires a login to read

I used one of my gift articles and it should have been unlocked. Perverse person that I am, here's the complete text and phooey to the NYT for apparently messing up.

Bonus addition of Horace Fundt's (whoever he is)comment, a paean / rant to or about the Good Old Days.

Cheers,
JBB

Shy Girl AI Publishing NYT 3/25/2026

(ETA) By Andrea Bartz

Ms. Bartz is a novelist whose latest book is "The Last Ferry Out."

When readers ask questions about my thriller novels, I love to discuss the themes and characters in them and the inspiration for my writing. But as generative artificial intelligence worms its way through the publishing industry, I'm bracing for a stomach-turning query: Did you actually write this?

The worry has been at the front of my mind since last week, when Hachette canceled the forthcoming U.S. publication of the horror novel "Shy Girl" after readers and journalists flagged prose that sounded like A.I. slop. (The author maintains that a freelance editor is to blame for any prose written by a large language model.)

Though I'm against the use of generative A.I. in creative writing, not everyone feels the same way. What does seem clear, however, is that most readers want disclosure when A.I. has been used, and they are quick to note the telltale rhythms and patterns of popular large language models.

But as A.I. models continue to improve, I'm concerned that it will become difficult to distinguish between something written by a human versus a bot. As more A.I.-generated writing is put out in the world, more readers will question whether the text they are poring over was penned by a human. We're barreling toward a rapid erosion of trust between authors and readers, and the publishing industry is unprepared to deal with the consequences.

Already, with a little fine-tuning, chatbots can be eerily good mimics of published writers, nailing their word choices and go-to grammatical patterns. James Frey, an author who's no stranger to controversy and who has proudly admitted to using A.I. to write, has noted, "I have asked the A.I. to mimic my writing style so you, the reader, will not be able to tell what was written by me and what was generated by the A.I."

Shortly after ChatGPT was publicly released, I entered the prompt "write a short story in the style of author Andrea Bartz." The output was an uncanny facsimile of my prose β€” the actual scenes it generated made little sense, but the rhythm and sentences themselves mimicked some of the deliberate stylistic choices I make in my books.

A.I. detectors exist, but they're far from perfect. OpenAI has called them unreliable. I don't pretend to know how these checkers work under the hood. But if large language models were trained on my work (which was the case in at least one instance), then it's easy to see how my own writing may come across to some as A.I.-generated.

In other words, I don't write like A.I.; A.I. writes like me.

I pasted a few paragraphs of my own prose (a quick satire piece I'd shared in my newsletter) into a free online detection tool. It deemed the passage "very likely A.I.-generated," with 82 percent of the text exhibiting the hallmarks of A.I. This app appeared to be cruder and less reliable than other detectors I tried, perhaps because it was pushing a feature to "humanize" my passage with the click of a button. Lord help us all.

The relationship between artists and their patrons has always hinged on human connection. Though I have never met their authors, I cry when I read Sally Rooney's "Intermezzo," snicker my way through Kurt Vonnegut's "Breakfast of Champions" and feel my heart flip-flop when Mr. Darcy delivers his urgent line at the end of Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice": "If your feelings are still what they were last April, tell me so at once. My affections and wishes are unchanged; but one word from you will silence me on this subject forever."

Novelists write to wrestle with the human condition, to explore universal themes and alchemize their humanity into words that resonate with total strangers. If you remove the flesh-and-blood author from the equation β€” or plant seeds of doubt in readers' minds about whether what they are consuming is authentically human β€” the writer-reader relationship falls apart.

In a worst-case scenario, mistrust could bring with it rampant accusations of A.I. use, including as a bad-faith tactic employed against enemies. By making bookworms paranoid about whether a poem or a passage they love was written by a person or by an algorithm, it may also warp the act of reading itself. None of this bodes well for the future of publishing β€” an industry in decline, supported by fewer readers, paying authors unlivable wages.

I fear it could fall on us authors to prove our writing is our own. The advice I often hear from fellow authors is hopeful, if a bit hippy-dippy: Write something weird! Break all the rules! Pour your heart and soul into it because nobody can tell a story quite like you, baby! But in practical terms, there's little writers can do beyond documenting the laborious process of penning a long-form piece. When it comes to academic writing and legal briefs, eagle-eyed reviewers can look for hallucinated citations, proof the work was A.I.-generated. For most writing, though, the primary indicator is alarmingly murky: Does it sound like ChatGPT to me?

Several made-by-human certifications exist for written works. But many of these programs operate on the honor system, so the badge lacks teeth. In theory, the author of "Shy Girl" could've slapped the Authors Guild's "Human Authored" stamp on its cover (it doesn't require detection tools). Book contracts typically state that authors' work must be original. But again, enforcement options are effectively limited to fallible A.I. checkers that often have a high rate of false positives β€” and vibes.

The cancellation of "Shy Girl" raises many concerns about trust, authenticity and publishing's readiness for a new, A.I.-assisted world. But one beautiful thing sprang from the fallout: Readers made it abundantly clear they want books by humans, not machines. This should hearten all the authors painstakingly getting words on the page one at a time β€” and frighten those secretly using generative A.I. as a shortcut to a finished draft.

From the comments
626

H
Horace Fundt
Planet Rayon

"I'm concerned that it will become difficult to distinguish between something written by a human versus a bot."I think you have the reasons for this completely backward. You're highlighting the idea that LLM's might get better at writing. Instead it is quite likely that people will forget what quality literature looks like. They'll do this the same way they forgot what a properly regulated airline industry looked like, or what the TV news magazine 60 Minutes looked like before it was hacked by Trump, or what the CBS News website looked like before it turned into the National Enquirer. Or most pressingly, what political candidates were supposed to look like before Steve Bannon erased our memory of sanity with the cancer of Cambridge Analytica.We'll read the AI slop, and we'll think it's simply the best. This is called Brain Rot, not progress.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Bondi Beach

Thank you!

(I had just e-mailed your link to another me so I can access it remotely, with a modern computer at my local library (in case my prehistoric machine was the cause.)

AJ

BlacKnight 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Score has nothing to do with it. If it comes out of a slop machine, it's slop. And posting the output of a random number generator doesn't make one an author.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach 🚫

@BlacKnight

If it comes out of a slop machine, it's slop.

Twenty or so years ago there was a music program on NPR, the name of the host now lost to me, whose tagline was, "If it sounds good, it IS good" (emphasis in the original).

To my mind that applies to the writing, even if I detest reading something AI-generated and will not knowingly read it.

~ JBB

EricR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I have one of those that's over 8. It's just a fun story. It's full of AI tells, and gptZero is unambiguous in labelling it AI.

People enjoy reading it, though.

E

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@EricR

I have one of those that's over 8. It's just a fun story. It's full of AI tells, and gptZero is unambiguous in labelling it AI.

My trust level for AI detectors is quite low. I've fed some of my completely hand-crafted text into them and they've come back saying significant portions are either 'AI' or 'AI-enhanced'.

My conclusion is that someone trained the AI on my work! 😎

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Looking at Andrea Bartz's article, she uses em-dashes quite liberally. I guess current AI detectors ascribe too much importance to the presence of em-dashes.

I read a story update earlier which is obviously AI-enhanced - few em-dashes but lots of triples and gobbledegook metaphors - yet it doesn't have the AI tag.

AJ

EricR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

And there you have it :) It's ironic that one of the things that will foil an AI detector is writing poorly. Human beings are inconsistent, make mistakes, and don't catch the errors. If you're good at your craft, you will be mistaken for an AI.

I'd wear it as a badge of honour!

E

Marc Nobbs 🚫

@EricR

It's ironic that one of the things that will foil an AI detector is writing poorly.

Both Quillbot and ZeroGPT have 'Humanisers' - AI models designed specifically to 'sound human' by avoiding the usual 'AI Tells.'

What comes out is genuinely garbage. It's very basic. Simple sentence structures, devoid of any charm or flair. It feels like it was written by someone in primary school.

If you feed the "humanised" text from one of these detectors into the other one, it typically comes back as zero percent AI written, even though it was 100% AI generated.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I know the ZeroGPT one, and because it's designed to help students evade detection doing term papers what comes out is dry as toast. Ask it to critique some fiction writing… it's quite humorous that it notes the lack of citations.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@EricR

If you're interested, I'm adding the AI detection results to my little experiment from last week in this thread:
https://storiesonline.net/d/s2/t14434/ai-challenge-can-you

I'm finding it interesting to see what isn't getting marked as AI (particularly on the AI-generated text), as well as what is.

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

I'd wear it as a badge of honour!

Absolutely!

I did some further playing around and found some very odd behavior. The following:

"Mike," I heard a hollow, scratchy-sounding voice say. "It's Brandon!"

was considered AI so long as the words 'hollow' or 'scratchy-sounding' were in it. Removing either one didn't change the AI detector's opinion.

It also called out:

"Papa! Look!" Rachel called out.

as absolutely AI-generated, which makes no sense to me.

Of course, I did have to remove EVERY emdash. Even a single one caused it to be 'certain' that an AI had written the text. To me, that's lazy and completely wrong.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Of course, I did have to remove EVERY emdash. Even a single one caused it to be 'certain' that an AI had written the text. To me, that's lazy and completely wrong.

Laz agrees with you - he said, IIRC, that em-dashes are not a reliable indicator.

AJ

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

My conclusion is that someone trained the AI on my work!

Don't you just love cloud storage ;-)

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Don't you just love cloud storage ;-)

If so, it's not mine that's being exploited. I use a service, Sync.com, that is TNO (Trust No One β€” that is, only I have the keys), so the service cannot scan my files (or even know the filenames).

I do not put my files on iCloud, AWS, OneDrive 🀒, Google Drive, Dropbox, etc.

It's possible one of my readers does, and that's the source, but I can't control that.

solreader50 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Do readers have a right to know the author is using AI? I'd say yes.

I strongly agree.

Does an author have the right not to be vilified for it? I'd also say yes.

No-one deserves to be vilified for this. But I question your use of the word author in this context. An author writes creatively. With an AI story, I think the word publisher would be more appropriate.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@solreader50

But I question your use of the word author in this context. An author writes creatively. With an AI story, I think the word publisher would be more appropriate.

There seems to be a growing trend for established authors to tart up their work with AI-generated content. Done well, it can seem seamless and fool Laz's AI detector.

I noticed another top author has started going that way earlier this week. I'm not going to fat-shame them because the potential fall-out could be detrimental to the site.

AJ

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I noticed another top author has started going that way earlier this week. I'm not going to fat-shame them because the potential fall-out could be detrimental to the site.

I've had several new readers contact me to ask if I'm using AI because some random AI detector decided a story I wrote before ChatGPT was invented was AI-generated. 1000 quatloos says the freaking emdashes did it.

Almost sounds like Clue! "The emdashes did it on the site with the detector."

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

1000 quatloos says the freaking emdashes did it.

Not that anyone cares what I think, but if I were to specifically name you as an AI-free author, that would be a small help towards someone to work out who I do think are undisclosedly using AI.

AJ

acguy 🚫

@TMax

I'm ambivalent about AI. It is here and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I have used it in the past to fix grammar and spelling before I got an editor. She has taught me how to avoid most of the grammar errors and my spelling is better aside from seniors moments.
I'm not sure how well the AI detectors work. I tried to submit 2 stories to that other site for posting (starts with Lit) and they were rejected as being AI. I had pulled them off an old hard drive and they were written before I had even heard about AI.
I might give it a try and see what comes out but I have so many half finished stories I need to finish before that happens.

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