Forum: Author Hangout

I've very much enjoyed reading your work on SOL. I know in theory how a Patreon works, and I'm interested in the idea that I could get early feedback as I'm writing but I thought that there's now strict content guidelines?

Patreon has some strict content guidelines, but they're fairly well-documented so you should be able to read and make an informed guess about whether your planned work would fall afoul of them: https://www.patreon.com/policy/guidelines#sexually-gratifying-works

Some rules that I've seen other creators get tripped up by is, for example, the ban on incest also includes roleplay; if one character calls another "daddy" as a pet name, that counts as incestual roleplay and it'll get blocked. Any sexual content that you write also has to include clear consent, which I could see tripping people up.

I have no special insight into how Patreon's T&S team operates, but I strongly suspect that content which is currently being posted is vetted much more heavily than historical content; if Loucks were to go and repost the entirety of AWLL, I would guess that he would run into issues.

Part of what makes their policy a bit confusing is that it's written to cover all forms of pornography, while we're just considering written erotica. So if you have a scene that includes CNC, but it's clear from previous scenes and internal narration that there is enthusiastic consent, does that violate the rule? No idea! They don't want you slapping a "actually, everybody consented" banner on a piece, certainly. I suspect it would be a coin flip, and if it comes up often enough, eventually you'll lose the flip.

Your "will-they-won't-they" would, if anything ever happened to tip it into "they did", would almost certainly violate the rules (Steve and Angie are blood-related cousins, as well as functionally adoptive siblings in the same family unit).

I would guess that patreon detects violations with a bunch of automated scanning augmented by a reporting system with some amount of manual review? Of course, they're a private entity and are themselves beholden to the restrictions of their payment processors, so their appeal process isn't likely to be super effective; it's much less risky to drop an individual creator who may be toeing the line than it is to jeopardise your ability to run financial transactions through Stripe or whatever.

Whereas the South-American River site is primarily a book reseller, rather than a publisher, so their rules are set to cover both, which can cover a LOT of territory. Thus again, they're mostly warnings rather than outright restrictions. Thus if you violate them, it's considered your own damn fault! ;)

From someone who's been around the block a time or twelve.

Nope, that's been a consistent, unwavering element for the entire story, so it's more of a 'pseudo'-incestuous story, still illegal in real life, yet not quite as objectionable.

For that, I find it best to publish the book/eBook first, and then to post it later, so you can then do them both simultaneously. As generally, you'll get enough feedback, to know which specific chapters need some general improvements and why. So think of your SOL readers as partial beta-readers, giving you direct feedback on how specific readers interpret the story in their own, unique way, depending on their different backgrounds.

That approach has long worked for me, though I do have much more complex plots with plenty in-depth character development, so your results may vary considerably.

Just keep in mind, that SOL readers are not like those on any other site. As most will read the entire story for free, and then purchase the book they've already read, just to encourage you to read me, which is high praise indeed.

Thus, you can post the story, and have the info on the complete book/novel, so if they get impatient, they can purchase the whole book and read it at their leisure or merely read it a chapter at a time, as most of us prefer doing. (i.e. both sides win, as do you, by offering them both.

Again, 33+ novels and 57 books in total, so I seem to be doing something right. But then, I've always been a niche author, so your milage may vary. ;)

That was merely for context. Again, I'm NOT writing YOUR stories and have NO interest in doing so. Instead, I merely advise, so you can do with it whatever you want.

Which again, is why i so rarely EVER post under my own name on this Forum, while I'll clearly label my content anywhere else. Forums have always been dog-vs-dog cage fights, so I'd rather avoid being specifically targeted, thank you very much.

As always, you do you, and … ah, screw it!

Duh, that wasn't aimed at you, it was a reminder that SOL readers don't always respond like they do on other sites.

Next time I'll attach a "For everyone BESIDES Michael Loucks" whenever I post a comment.

They were merely separate sentences in the same paragraph, so the subject remains the same, NOT each sentence's subject.

For me, I've always aimed for 'novel-length' stories (i.e. 60K to 185K words or roughy twenty-some chapters, so those are more easily completed and sold as the story unfolds. Plus, as readers respond, spotting typos, you can simply make those corrections easily on the fly, while also continuing to write, since each 'book' is a separate story.

Though Grey Wolf and I have discussed this many times, and there's just no way to do that with saga-length, ongoing stories. :( Basically, novels and sagas are two separate literary categories.

Patron is more geared to a 'pay as you go', while SOL readers again prefer to read the story for free, then purchase the full story they've already read, to encourage you to write more. And those who are too impatient can always purchase the full book (even if it's an on-going work, which they can keep updating as new chapters for on-going books are released). That way you can offer substantial discounts for the whole set, which is usually a more attractive bargain to readers, though not if they don't know whether you'll ever finish or not. ;)

I DO want to continue to support Lazeez, especially since everyone here and his staff were incredibly helpful to a new author, and continue to be. (I'll keep what I post in front of the paywall, though...)

I DID offer him a bigger cut of my ZBookstore cut last quarter, but he kindly declined. I felt terrible that I'd asked him to take down my stories...

I'm glad I found this site years ago, though I don't write porn stories, nor do I read them now that I'm older...

Now, if only my Muse would come back... She ran away, screaming...

As I've always said, readers come to SOL—just like they did the older ASSTR site—for the porn, yet they stay for the serious stories. Thus there's a separate, variable market for either here.

And whenever the site starts becoming NOTHING but kinky porn, I generally return, just like I originally did, to introduce a better balance of stories. After all, once someone has already 'gotten their jollies', then what are they gonna read?

The impulse for porn is generally short lived, thus the predominance of short stories, while the impulse for deeper stories is longer-lasting over time.

Besides, few of us 'opt' to hide behind a paywall, but that's where the stories go after they've been up for a long period (i.e. Premiere 'paying' access), which used to be either five or seven years. So, if you want to literally 'pay' Lazeez back, most of us opt to pay for the service, even if we automatically have unlimited access anyway.

I've done that multiple times over my career, speaking of which, I'm now long overdue for another one. The advantage of that, is that it provides a better overall view of what's on the site, yet you can choose a simple monthly access, so you get a general idea of what's available, and download those specific stories, then return to the newest updates and posts. It's the best of both worlds, until you qualify for unlimited access.

The key is, it's based on both the number and length of each story, but also the total number of downloads. So the more you post, in both quantity and sheer volume, the faster you gain access. And since I always wrote oversized novels (three full novels a month for over three full decades, I achieved it pretty quickly, which is WHY I prefer 'paying it back' periodically, as I kinda got it without even considering it.

Sagas while popular, take a LOT longer to write, while novels are shorter, more concise and effectively more 'bang for the buck', as the focus is the overall impact, rather than duration.

There's always a lot to learn about SOL, the longer you remain, which is why we 'old-timers' are so handy, as we'll help 'guide' the newbies on how best to maximize the site for the long term.

It's yet another way of 'paying it forward', yet it's paying it to the authors themselves, rather than just the site or each individual story.

As someone who came for smut, but now stays for the sex light stories I agree. The well written stories are what keeps me here. Now the occasional well written stories with great character development and compelling plot, that also have long, detailed sex scenes every single chapter drive me crying. Love your writing Blue dragon, but the disconnect fry's my mind sometimes.

They are functionally adoptive siblings in the same family unit, true, but there are some huge caveats in that, ones that only make sense in a do-over (relative to capacity to consent, for instance). In the normal case, 'incest' is presumed to apply to people who 'grew up together'. 'Coming of age' notwithstanding, both of them were nearly past the age of consent when they met (and past it when Steve-as-we-know-him appeared on the scene).

Generally, the longer the story, the less sex there is, as it does get repetitious. For most sex stores, they get around that by continuing another in true harem, polyamorous relationships, however with plot and character centric stories, the emphasis is instead in increasing the relationships, thus again, the explicit sex generally plays a lessor rather than a greater role. As the characters are always expanding their circle of contact, which then—you guessed it—leads to yet more contacts.

So, where the is more sex, it's generally not the point or the lead motivation for the characters or the author. In most of my stories, I'd generally start writing 'behind the bedroom door' romantic scenes. Because, every time I did make the scenes explicit, readers would often skip the rest of the chapter, depending on when they'd last had sex, or were just tired of it.

Yet I used those sex scenes to get to the apres-sex scenes, where the characters open up and confess to closely guarded scenes that often, I the author, never even considered. Making those scene golden story-telling moments.

So, rather than having readers skip the most vital part of the chapter, I instead opting to minimize the sex. Because I continually had readers who did so, bitterly complain how the no chapter made "No sense at all!".

So eventually, I said "Screw it! If readers don't appreciate the sex scenes, then why have any at all."

Which is odd, because my sex scenes were always my most popular stories, because they contained such intensive character development and vital revelations.

So, if you keep complaining, you end up getting precisely what you requested, thus penalizing everyone. But I couldn't afford having that many readers (percentage wise) who had no clue what was happening. That never helps a stories overall scores, as 1-votes decreasing multiple 9 or even ten scores.

Frankly, I'd prefer if they just quit the story, it they so willing to not read large portions of it. Yet, story scores never work that way, no matter how they're designed to work.

One thing that jumps out at me in your initial question is that you mention the immediate feedback and motivating qualities thereof. You are definitely familiar with the risks of posting chapters before a story is finished, but I think that the best option for publishing your work is the one that gives you the best opportunity to finish it, you know? If getting feedback as you post chapters (along with the synergy of posting chapters as they align with a calendar year) is motivating and helps push you forward as you write the story, I think that is the better way to do it over trying to complete the story in a vacuum and then publishing chapters on some other schedule.

Again, authors tend to vary on that. For those who love posting as they write, they prefer the immediate feedback, while we who prefer only posting completed works prefer using that direct feedback to improve our already completed stories. As it's easier to revise when you know how if affects the entire story, rather than merely hoping and guessing.

But that's more of a 'story-arc' POV, which is a whole different discussion.

Offhand, during holiday months or summer vacations would definitely had an impact. Though again, if someone's busy with other things, they can always catch up whenever they have the time. So to a large degree, it's largely a wash.

Still, in most cases, posting on a regular schedules helps your scores, as it helps to build anticipation, which is why many authors prefer not posting daily, as that tends to weaken, rather than strengthening demand, as the anticipation does have an impact. Though it's not always appropriate for certain stories, so again, it's more muddled than clear.

But, I've stated before that I once posted VERY long stories, though nowadays, with modern shorter-attention spans, I personally prefer keeping them in the 3,000 to 7,000 word range, than my onetime 25,000 to 35,000 word stories of old. Different times, different expectations, so in the end, you just have to roll with the flow.

It's not the story, it's a different attention span, which is caused by a wide variety of different factors. So for most of us, we simply take others advice, and then do whatever works best for us. As flexible is better than rigid, as flexible bends, while rigid snaps and break, causing much more damage. (Me and my odd, ancient, tired cliches.)

Though another option is to simply cut the chapter lengths during those specific vacation periods, so it won't interrupt everyone's time celebrating with friends and family, though there are always those without friends and family, or Jews, who chose the Christian holidays to see the best shows with the fewest crowds, the best views and the optimal acoustics (I lived in NYC long enough, to appreciate that, as it's also the few times my father would visit, as he never really like crowded cities, while I thrived in them).

In short, there's really no catch-all for every case, there's just trends, which are always highly unsteady. Or, as they say, "Just pick a lane and stay with it," yet another common NY/Brooklyn saying.