Forum: Author Hangout

Plenty of isles that are not atolls and have neither sand nor palm trees.

The Isle of Man has two sandy beaches and its own type of palm tree, the Manx Palm.

AJ

Two sandy beaches is a long way from making Isle of Man "a sandy atoll"

The Manx Palm is not native to the Isle of Man, it's an import from New Zealand.

:-)

AJ

I remember "Just Desserts" as the name of a specialty restaurant in Toronto.

But is it value for money - do customers get their just deserts?

AJ

But is it value for money - do customers get their just deserts?

In this case "deserts" is related to "deserves" or something like that. I think I read that "just deserts" predates the word "dessert."

120 SOL stories contain "down the isle".

The characters went "down the isle" to the red light district. Churches were "up the isle."
~ JBB

A grammatical error would be something like: "Charles gave Anne a big, polka-dot, red ball for her birthday." Spoken or written, every native English speaker knows that the adjective order is wrong, even though most won't be able to quote the full rule. Unlike many other grammatical rules, adjective order doesn't change between formal and informal speech.

I disagree. Adjective order is advisory and overrulable for eg the purpose of emphasis.

AJ

I disagree. Adjective order is advisory and overrulable for eg the purpose of emphasis.

When I read the sentence it sounded weird but I didn't know why. Then when adjective order was mentioned, I understood why.

It's probably a grammar rule. But like all grammar rules, the author of fiction can purposefully break the rule (like fragmented sentences and, I guess, to emphasize an adjective). But like breaking all rules, it better be clear.

Adjective order is advisory and overrulable for eg the purpose of emphasis.

Google disagrees with me - it sayeth grammar.

However the first four sites I looked at stated there are 7, 8, 9, 10 adjectival positions. So it's not a very well defined rule, even for grammar nazis.

AJ

opinion, size, age or shape, colour, origin, material, purpose

Does that count as seven or eight? :-)

AJ

Age or shape treats that as one item

They are very different items, so counting them as a single item would be inappropriate.

I interpreted them being listed that way because the order of the two items relative to each other was not clear.

Per Wikipedia (spit!)

Opinion – limiter adjectives (e.g. a real hero, a perfect idiot) and adjectives of subjective measure (e.g. beautiful, interesting) or value (e.g. good, bad, costly)
Size – adjectives denoting physical size (e.g. tiny, big, extensive)
Shape or physical quality – adjectives describing more detailed physical attributes than overall size (e.g. round, sharp, swollen, thin)
Age – adjectives denoting age (e.g. young, old, new, ancient, six-year-old)
Colour – adjectives denoting colour or pattern (e.g. white, black, pale, spotted)
Origin – denominal adjectives denoting source (e.g. Japanese, volcanic, extraterrestrial)
Material – denominal adjectives denoting what something is made of (e.g., woollen, metallic, wooden)
Qualifier/purpose – final limiter, which sometimes forms part of the (compound) noun (e.g., rocking chair, hunting cabin, passenger car, book cover)

The Cambridge Dictionary lists ten types

If we don't want to emphasise any one of the adjectives, the most usual sequence of adjectives is:

1 opinion unusual, lovely, beautiful
2 size big, small, tall
3 physical quality thin, rough, untidy
4 shape round, square, rectangular
5 age young, old, youthful
6 colour blue, red, pink
7 origin Dutch, Japanese, Turkish
8 material metal, wood, plastic
9 type general-purpose, four-sided, U-shaped
10 purpose cleaning, hammering, cooking

AJ

There are even grammar errors in books sold by publishers, so let's cool it.

'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' by Lynne Truss contains more than its fair share :-(

AJ