Forum: Author Hangout

No chickens?

Ha-ha, I'd already considered that. No, they're too hard to keep track of--given the circumstances--so they were keep in their cages.

Virtually everyone in the compound was involved in the day's activities: small children, nursing mothers, barking dogs and squealing pigs.

It's not quite as strong. How about em-dashes?

Virtually everyone in the compound--small children, nursing mothers, barking dogs and squealing pigs--were involved in the day's activities.

That way, the odd list of participants stands out from the statement before the point is made, disarming the reader with humor for what's to follow (you can tell I put too much thought into this!).

It's not quite as strong. How about em-dashes?

Virtually everyone in the compound--small children, nursing mothers, barking dogs and squealing pigs--were involved in the day's activities.

Yes.

bb

Should colons and semicolons have an anal code?

Depends on what you're doing with them or to them, I guess.

bb

Looks good to me. If you are happy with it, do it that way.

To me, the problem with the original was the colon indicated what came before was equal to what followed. That was okay for the list items, but the part following pigs belonged on the left side of the colon.

I wrote my contribution to you original post without reading the following exchanges.
I would agree with two dashes, but I think this suggests these were the only ones in the compound.

I see it as I originally intended, as a combined list, everyone in the compound who was involved in the day's activities (as I noted earlier, the chickens weren't included as they were taken out in cages, so they were fully included).

I still think the em-dash (not a double dash, but alas, the forum doesn't support em-dashes) works best, as it separates the independent clause as a separate component of the sentence without specifically designating a list (as the colon did).

And yes, the "were" is now a "was".

I still think the em-dash (not a double dash

The double dash represents the em-dash when the em-dash is not supported.

The double dash represents the em-dash when the em-dash is not supported.

Yeah, I wasn't sure that was clear.

I have never seen two hyphens together like that;

It's due to the shortcomings of this forum not allowing an em-dash. Since you can't put in an em-dash, using a single one would show as a hyphen. So to get around that, you represent the em-dash with a "--".

Any thoughts from actual humans with actual experience in writing fiction?

I'm not sure about the use of "so", since I've never really considered it, but the main objection to the spaces on either side of an em-dash is that it confuses the em-dash with an en-dash, which confuses readers. Again, they're both publication marks, which means they follow distinctly difficult guidelines than do simple dashes, and their use in fiction is even more complicated!

Your discomfort with the spaces surrounding em-dashes probably have more to do with your use to the text usages than to the use of the publication marks, which is understandable, given what you've been exposed to.

Note: By the way, another guideline I've been paying more attention to lately is to always add a hyphen (not a dash) to connect "well" and any subsequent words (ex: "well-behaved", "well-endowed", "well-hung", etc.). The objective is to denote that it's a modifier and not an independent word.

but the main objection to the spaces on either side of an em-dash is that it confuses the em-dash with an en-dash

The em-dash is a lot longer than the en-dash. And how often do you use an en-dash? It's used for ranges, but what else?

I always thought on print it looked better without the spaces, but on a screen it looked better with spaces. The reason I think it's better without the spaces is it won't break it up at the end of a line (unless your spaces are &nbsp).

EDITED:

In the original version of this post I entered &nbsp with the ending semicolon. The software changed it to a space (so I edited out the semicolon).

Lazeez, if the software converts &nbsp to a space, why doesn't it convert &mdash to an em-dash? (It converts it to a hyphen)

I thought en-dash and hyphen were the same thing, while em-dash was sometimes just called dash.

Here you go.

bb

hyphen (compound words):

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/hyphen.html

en-dash (indicates span or range of dates or numbers):

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/en-dash.html

em-dash (set off a parenthetical or appositional phrase):

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/em-dash.html

Please clarify this for me.

Yes, there are 3 of them.

The hyphen (which is on the keyboard) is for joining words (as in hard-on, make-up, ten-year-old).

The en-dash, which is the width of the letter n, is used for ranges (Jan-June). (note, in the example you have to assume the dash is longer but I couldn't put in a real en-dash.) In this example, it's Jan through June.

And then there's the em-dash which is the width of the letter m. It has many uses. It's used to represent interrupted speech in dialogue. It's used in fiction where parentheses would be used in other forms of writing (I guess the original example). It's used to emphasize something.

I hadn't heard of either but I see both en dash and em dash are in the extended ASCII character set though I can't see how to use them

My conversion table in Word automatically converts a double hyphen to an em-dash. The problem is, when I convert the .doc to a .txt, I lose the em-dash so when I post it to SOL it's no longer an em-dash. That's why I use "--" to represent the em-dash on SOL (and here).

For my ebook novel, I replaced the em-dash created by Word to the HTML &mdash (ending with a semicolon).

I've never used the en-dash.

I use OpenOffice and I have turned almost all AutoCorrect options off.

I make less mistakes than it does!

Probably an easy use, in your case, at least, is 'cut & paste'. Simply create a table in a text file (or an OpenOffice document) that contains all your substitutions, and each time a file is ready, you do global substitutions, change dashes for em-dashes, dots for ellipses, and anything else you need.

I use this technique to replace my section breaks ("___________________" with my html graphic commands for my published books (my website and SOL keeps the underscores).

But once again, there's generally not a need for publication marks unless you're publishing. I use them a lot--even on SOL--but most authors can simply ignore them with little penalty. (I originally got into using them when I started including foreign languages (French, Vietnamese and Arabic) in one of my stories, so incorporating the other publication marks was natural for me.

I thought en-dash and hyphen were the same thing, while em-dash was sometimes just called dash.

I'm going to take a bold step out into the wild here. For many years I used hyphens, en-dashes and em-dashes in technical documents and formal reports. However, when I started writing fiction as stories to be read for entertainment I soon learned to hate reading an en-dash and an em-dash in a fiction story. Part of that was the way some present in e-books and web pages is a little confusing to be sure which is which. Another part was there is no simple way to put them into the story while writing it, because the way the word processors and other software don't have universal recognition of how to place and present them.

The result is I use a hyphen when creating modified words such as well-being. I also use a hyphen with a space on either side as a dash where it's traditional to use either an en-dash or an em-dash. However, I don't use a dash on each side of the phrase the way CW did earlier. When i use it I have the dash then the phrase, and a comma after the phrase. Thus if the dash and phrase are removed it looks how it would have been written without it, thus the dash and additional phrase are obviously a little something extra related to what's before the dash. This is useful to provide clarity in some lists and similar situations.

Please clarify this for me.

I thought en-dash and hyphen were the same thing, while em-dash was sometimes just called dash.

Technically, hyphens are identical with a simple dash, while the en-dash and em-dash are only used when publishing documents. The en-dash is defined as being the width of a small letter "n" and the "m" dash is the length of the small letter "m" is which ever font you use, though the majority of fonts don't support either publishing or accent marks. Publishing marks are more precise, so they're more common in printed documents than in electronic documents.

The other uses of publication marks are to denote interrupted speech (only used in fiction and is specifically for dialogue), where the em-dash signifies an incomplete sentence because someone was interrupted. The ellipsis, also separated by spaces on either end--except when there's other punctuation (like a comma) connected to--but just to confuse things--more recent style guides insist you don't use a trailing period (end-stop) following an ellipsis (which is a rule derived from non-fiction uses). Got all that? I know it's confusing.

Thus you have the following:

"That's what I was say--"

"Would you quit yammering? We're sick of listening to you spout off about obscure no one cares about!"

and

"The rain in Spain--which falls mainly in the plains--is a welcome relief from the oppressive heat."

In this case, the em-dash is largely optional and can generally be replaces with commas (or parenthesis in non-fiction usages). It's mostly used when you want to focus attention on a side-issue which isn't directly related to the topic of the sentence.

There's also

"I have something somewhat ... uncomfortable ... to ask."

which is distinct from the ellipses use in non-fiction to denote something removed from the text:

He asked: "I have something ... to ask."

Ellipses (the plural of the singular ellipsis) also denote a "hanging sentence":

"But then, my point is largely ..."

Where, if read aloud, the character's voice would be heard trailing off as they allow the reader to assume what they intended to make (you often hear this after everyone in a conversation wanders away, or a speaker realizes that no one is paying him the slightest attention).

Note: Because I tend to specialize in complex dialogues with multiple characters, I tend to use em-dashes and ellipses a lot, often during arguments where one character will cut another off, or someone will storm out of the room. The punctuation marks are a handy way to denote the action without having to spell out how everyone responds. However, since it's uncommon in normal text, you run the risk that many readers won't understand what they mean, and will naturally assume that an em-dash needs spaces around it, or that an ellipsis means the text is missing a key phrase. :(

The en-dash is defined as being the width of a small letter "n" and the "m" dash is the length of the small letter "m" is which ever font you use

I agree with what you said. However in practice, the relative widths of the respective dash characters may be overlooked.

Font styles are divided into two categories - fixed width and variable width fonts.

In a variable width font style, each character is allocated only the space necessary to display the character; thus, there is no 'white space' surrounding the character as there is in a fixed width font. As a result, the characters are compressed and the number of characters per lineal inch will vary. Without the surrounding 'white space', the width of the dash, en-dash, and em-dash are not as noticeable.

In a fixed width font style, every character is allocated the same amount of lineal space on the line of text, although the allocated character width does vary with point size. A narrow character such as an 'i' only uses a small portion of the allocated space, so it appears to have a lot of 'white space' around it. An 'n' uses more of the allocated width and an 'm' uses almost all of the allocated space, so there is less white space around 'n's and 'm's. As a result of the surrounding 'white space' varying, the difference between the widths of a dash, en-dash, and em-dash are more noticeable.

Font styles are divided into two categories - fixed width and variable width fonts.

And in many fonts, publishing characters aren't even available. As a general rule, I wouldn't rely on them for a fixed-width font, as those fonts are primarily intended for 'text only' (i.e. no special characters). You might be able to make them out, but their effect isn't what you'd get in a published book (i.e. the font is specifically kerned to reproduce the characters properly).

The white space you're thinking of is considered 'dead' white space, in that it's determined by the inability of a character to fit a specific set width. Those fonts are typically used for coding, rather than for pleasure reading.

Lazeez, if the software converts to a space, why doesn't it convert &mdash to an em-dash? (It converts it to a hyphen)

I'm guessing he (Lazeez) has a different processing engine for the forum/feedback than he has for stories. Whenever I include smart quotes in a title (or an ellipsis) it comes back as a numeric code in email responses, despite the SOL engine translating them into standard quotes, so I don't know what the hell it's doing with it.

And how often do you use an en-dash? It's used for ranges, but what else?

Almost never, while I'll sometimes list times (ex: "I'll meet you between three and five") I rarely list date ranges in fiction, and even when I do, I'll spell it out instead. But again, the distinction between an en and an em-dash don't really apply unless in publishing, otherwise you use a simple dash in both cases (with or without spaces, depending on context).

I'll have to look into it.

Thanks.

This is what &mdash(;) shows up as:
-

And this is what the &ndash(;) shows up as:
-

There should also be a comma before "and".

Depends on whether you're American or use the British serial comma. Since the story takes place in America, I use the American system (not including a comma before "and").

Depends on whether you're American or use the British serial comma.

I don't think the Oxford comma is a "British" way just because it's called Oxford.

I'm one who uses the Oxford comma. However, I'm not sure I would use it in your sentence. Grouping the dogs and pigs together seems right to me, but it's something I'd probably flip-flop on 'til the final version.

btw, can animals be an "everyone"? If you only had the dogs and pigs would you have referred to them as "everyone"?

a conjunction

isn't a conjunction where two or more scam deals crossover or come together?

Would Brits really consider using a comma there?

Some US writers use the Oxford comma too. There's no strict rule on it. However, if you use it it makes it easier to identify the difference between a linked pair and two unlinked items in a list. With the Oxford comma you get a comma after every list item and the word 'and' signifies the next item is the last one in the list. Thus you get things like:

He had a pistol, rifle, knife, and machete.

For linked items you have no comma, thus:

He had a knife, rifle, bow and arrow. - - in this bow and arrow are a linked pair and not two separate items in the list.

Thus you can learn to see a difference in things like action lists:

I went to the house, got the gun, and shot Fred.

as against

I went to the house, got the gun and shot Fred.

In the first you can shoot Fred in any place you like, in the second you are shooting him in the house because getting the gun and the shooting are a linked pair.

I think you're saying is the comma is optional for the UK style

I've seen the US authors use it, and I've seen it suggested as a viable alternative for the US. However, it does depend a lot on the style manual you use and what the document you're writing is.

The sad thing is a lot of the advice you see about punctuation on the Internet and in books is for writing college assignments, high school essays, and formal documents which have a much stricture set of rules and follow a style manual like the Chicago Manual of Style. Now, that's very good for those usages, and very important to follow them for those usages. however, what it does mean is when you follow them strictly whatever you write comes out stilted, dry, and formal, and very unsuited to writing fiction.

I expect many of the intended audience will dismiss it as the ravings of a demented Punctuation Nazi--without understanding it well enough to see it's actually achieving the complete opposite. Whatever?

Generally, the 'punctuation N-word gets applied whenever someone advocates sweeping, across the board rules regarding punctuation, or disallows exceptions to the guidelines for specific uses. As long as your guidelines allow to context, and don't harp on variations, I doubt you'll be attacked for it. Typically, people use this particular N-word whenever someone marks up an entire page full of red-marks focusing exclusively on the punctuation, ignore the overall story (just my opinion, by the way).

There are enough authors struggling to understand punctuation, and convey precise information, I think it'll be taken with due consideration.

@Sejintenej

I personally would put a space on each side of the hyphen since a hyphen is not part of a word. Not logical because I don't use a space for a period/full stop or a comma.

He's using the hyphens to emulate an em-dash, which is a publication mark (i.e. it's not available in text-only documents or ancient typewriters). In the days of text only, that's the way you'd use use hypens, however, using spaces around the hyphen makes it into an en-dash (a dash the width of the small letter "n", using whichever font the reader selects, which is only used for specifying dates (ex: "Nov. 3 - 5th").

Again, Ross wasn't indicating a dash combining words, but the publication mark signifying a separate thought signifying special attention (though, in fiction, it also can signify interrupted speech).

That makes even more sense to me than the US style.

I'm not sure there is a "U.S. style." I was taught in the U.S. that the comma is optional. Now that's the U.S. education system not any particular style guide.

I follow the Chicago Manual of Style when writing fiction because that's what the publishers use. If I were writing newspaper articles I'd be following the AP Style Guide.

Chicago says to put the Oxford comma in (unless, of course, it changes the meaning such as "ham and eggs" as a breakfast item).

AP says not to use it unless there's confusion (the famous, "I want to thank my parents, Ayan Rand and God).

I believe Strunk and White says to use it.

em-dash

To me, the em-dash is what you get when Emma runs across the hall from the bathroom to her bedroom in just her underwear.

To me, the em-dash is what you get when Emma runs across the hall from the bathroom to her bedroom in just her underwear.

And in that case, too, there are no extraneous spaces between Em's dash and the connecting passages. 'D

The script decodes all the html entities properly. So a ° should come out as °.

That's good to know. I can relax about that one issue, at least.

As for the em-dash converting to a simple dash, it seems to be restricted to the forum and emails, rather than the story conversion, if that helps locate the bug.

Switch, I can tell you after years of using the em-dash in stories, it comes across correctly during submissions (as my many emails containing html codes demonstrate!). 'D

In letters in the US (allegedly) a business letter is started Dear ****: and an informal letter starts Dear ****,

I was taught (in U.S. schools, and used business, either "Dear ***;" or "Dear xxx," depending on how formal you wanted the setting to be.

Contrary to what my primary school teacher preached a colon is followed by a capital letter in certain situations.

Not in fiction. As far as I know, that's only in letter and lists (where each item/line following begins with a capital and a full sentence.

Why does grammar have to be so complicated?

because everyone wants a single set of rules which will handle ANY circumstances, which rarely works as planned.

I was taught (in U.S. schools, and used business, either "Dear ***;" or "Dear xxx," depending on how formal you wanted the setting to be.

I was also educated in the U.S. and never saw a semicolon used in the salutation. It's a colon for business and comma for informal.

I was also educated in the U.S. and never saw a semicolon used in the salutation. It's a colon for business and comma for informal.

Maybe my memory is faulty, I don't recall ever using a colon when addressing a formal letter in business. I do recall using them in Powerpoint presentations which would listen a variety of sentences, each of which would be capitalized.

Then again, most of my days in business we used email, rather than dead-tree snail mail.

I don't recall ever using a colon when addressing a formal letter in business.

Here's the first Google result on the subject: http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2014/10/what-is-a-salutation-its-not-a-close-.html

In a letter, salutations nearly always begin with "Dear":

Dear Rosalie,

(We use a comma after the greeting in a personal letter in the U.S. and Canada. In other countries the punctuation is often omitted.)

Dear Dr. Gomez:

(We use a colon after the greeting in a business letter in the U.S. and Canada. Other countries often leave it out.)

(We use a colon after the greeting in a business letter in the U.S. and Canada. Other countries often leave it out.)

As I suspected, it's more likely my memory at fault than an actual fact.

I don't know which format Australia uses.

In Australia dates are day/month/year when written as numbers. Thus you get 11/9/01 or 11/9/2001 for 11 Sept 2001, or September 11, 2001.

........

Time is 19:30 or 7:30 p.m., but some will write 7.30 p.m.

........

Addressing a letter is the same in formal, business, and informal and you use a comma.

Dear Mr Smith,

Dear Ralph,

G'day Ralph,

Hey Ralphie,

Ralph,

........

The most common use of a colon in business is in a list:

- They start with a dash or a number.

- They are complex with multiple words in each item.

- Often they will end with a full stop, but sometimes they have a semi-colon and only the final one has a full stop.

........

Within a sentence the most common use of a colon is just before an expansive phrase, or an interrogative phrase, or a flat statement you wish to emphasis. It's also sometimes used with a quotations.Examples:

Peter had an Armalite AR7: the cute .22 semi automatic that broke down and stored in the fiberglass butt.

The only question remains is: What will happen to John.

Fred turned to Peter, and said, "I said I don't care about it: got it!"

Mike said, "Surely you remember that famous speech by Martin Luther King where he said: 'I have a dream.' It's world renowned."

9 : 11: 01

It appears that you are using a date format. I have never seen the day, month, and year separated by a colon here in the US. Not to say it isn't done but I've never seen it.

9 : 11: 01

If I saw this by itself, I would assume it was a time, not a date.

hh:mm:ss. There's absolutely no way to differentiate such a date from a time. I'm unsure how that wouldn't cause widespread confusion?

For time (hours, minutes, seconds) I would want some extra indicator which time format is indicated (not years, months, days or some other combination)

Unless, of course, you use military time (ex: "23:30:57"). That's clearly not a date, but "13:12:07" might be.

Maybe on a planet with an exceptionally long year and months with many more days than ours. And long days with more than 24 hours.

Define a day before you can get into that discussion. The traditional one is sunrise through sunset to the next sunrise. For Isachsen and other places within the Arctic Circle it's a little longer from sunrise to sunrise to what you see in New York etc.

Define a day before you can get into that discussion. The traditional one is sunrise through sunset to the next sunrise.

I would use a slightly different definition - the time necessary for a planet to make a full revolution about its axis relative to its sun. Using that definition, a day in Isachsen is the same length as a day at Earth's equator.

"Rooter" may be appropriate over a drink with a lovely Australian lass.

Until she responds with something along the lines of "Get rooted yourself, mate," and throws her drink in your face.

bb

I decided not to touch that opening with a ten foot pole, but now that the subject is broached, in the US we sometimes say 'root for the home team'. I got a chuckle over that saying while I lived in Australia.

While I lived in New Zealand, some of my New Zealand friends used the phrase 'Mutton dressed up as lamb' to describe older women who dressed like young girls.

Is that phrase used in Australia also?

Is that phrase used in Australia also?

yes, and there's the reverse, as well, for the very young dressing like they're much older - but the term jail bait is more common for that.

jail bait

Also a common term here in the US.

Definitely used in Australia too.

We love our sheep in both countries, often literally :)

Also said of the University of California, Davis [world-class agricultural programs], where "Men are men and there are more sheep than women," although I think the ratio (men to women, not women to sheep) is better these days.

bb

University of California

I understand that in some parts of the US, it is illegal to wear hip boots in the fields. Does that apply at UC Davis.

I understand that in some parts of the US, it is illegal to wear hip boots in the fields. Does that apply at UC Davis.

I don't know of anywhere in the U.S. where hip boots are illegal. They may be stupid, or inappropriate, but I can't imagine why they'd be illegal.

That said, many states have stupid laws passed hundreds of years ago which are still on the books and have never been repealed, so anything is possible.

I don't know of anywhere in the U.S. where hip boots are illegal. They may be stupid, or inappropriate, but I can't imagine why they'd be illegal.

The few areas where the law was on the books were agricultural. When the fields were really muddy, the farmers would wear hip boots to protect their clothes.

Some of the Puritanical locals strenuously objected to the activities of a few of the local farmers who were into bestiality. Placing a sheep's rear leg in each of the hip boots made it difficult for the sheep to get away, and the farmer would have his fun.

At least that is the way I heard it.

"Many states in the US are beginning to ban certain types of waders, specifically those with porous, felt soles. These kinds of soles easily host various types of invasive species that could be carried from one water source to another. The invasive organisms and plants pose a threat to fish stocks and important fish habitats."

It should be noted that the "felt souls" are inside the waders, where hopefully they'll never make contact with water unless the fisherman faces drowning (trust me, it doesn't happen often). Even so, it would be much easier requiring different sole liners to absorb perspiration than it would be banning all waders.

Perhaps we could start a new thread on whether all laws and regulations on government statute books have some logical or reasonable basis.
Your post seems ideal for that.

No thanks. There are already a gazillion political rants, which never amount to diddly-squat. As they say, opinions are like assholes, every idiot has one.

That's not an criticism, Ross, just an observation about avoiding politics in general (though we keep being drawn into the public sewer as discussions in general keep circling the drain).

I've never heard that expression before, and had to look it up. Aussies would the crudity 'down the toilet' instead.

Read your own note about sublty and not "spelling it out". Circling the drain suggests the obvious, but doesn't state the obvious, leaving it for others to figure out on their own. But I agree with you, I prefer the less obvious approach. It's much less abrasive.

Politics seems to inevitably come up on the longer threads and then people are just shouting past each other.

I think you're referring to the "Nazi correlation" (ex: "You punctuate your stories like a Nazi!!!"). When someone is beyond reasonable discussion--often because they feel they're not being heard, they'll often revert to hyperbole (those often, use analogy is fitting in many political discussions, when the same techniques are applied in the one group as they were used in others). Still, there are better ways of expressing ideas. For authors, about the worst thing you can say is that they're "Nazi baiters". If you find yourself using that N-word, it's time YOU abandoned the topic, rather than everyone does.

Your TOO LATE for this thread.
I described Ross at Play as a 'demented Punctuation Nazi' here a week ago.

Sorry, but as Ross himself pointed out, he's still struggling--like all of us--with guidelines concerning grammar and punctuation. If he overreacts, that's a natural part of the process (as opposed to trolls, who'll continue incessantly, often stooping to sabotage after their logical arguments have failed).

I don't mind guiding someone as they navigate difficult passages, even if they take obvious wrong turns. But refusing to allow them to participate, and learn, is a misguided teaching method.

I understand that in some parts of the US, it is illegal to wear hip boots in the fields. Does that apply at UC Davis.

What's a hip boot? Something to wear fishing?

As for UC Davis, I'm pretty sure you can wear anything you want.

bb

I'm pretty sure you would be risking your life if you showed up at UC Davis wearing a Trump for president t-shirt.

It'd be OK if you had a trigger warning on it ...

bb

What's a hip boot? Something to wear fishing?

"Hip boots" are fishing attire where the waterproof boot comes up to your hip, as opposed to 'chest waiders', which come up to your chest and are a bitch to swim in if you step in a hole and fill them up!

Note: the original joke, such as it was, was that anyone showing up in fishing attire (aka. "country attire") wouldn't dare to show up at UC Davis, a bastion for liberal intelligentsia. The supposed joke is akin to suggesting that no one would show up at a Republican rally with a book. It was a mindless stereotypical attack based entirely on sweeping assumptions. It's hardly worthy of a literary discussion, even among a bunch of online pornographers.

'Dressed' doesn't originate from clothing. It comes from how butchers present meat. From SOL stories, that meaning persists in the field of hunting, for example field dressing a deer.

AJ

Stupid me.

One morning I was only a quarter awake when I saw the title, and thought it was a question about semi-conductors, and wondered why they were asking about people directing large articulated trucks where to park.

(Scotsmen and their Kilts anyone?)

why start that recently, go look at the design of a toga - even though it was for formal wear situations.

The advantage of the kilt for unenthusiastic soldiers was debated for the WW2 Italian army, so they could shit and run at the same time.

give it up, mate, that was a crappy joke.