Forum: Author Hangout

Ngram - toward/towards

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

What I've read is that the word with the "s" is more British and without the "s" is more American. So, as an American, I make an effort to spell "toward" without the "s".

But the articles I read always seem to spell it with the "s". All those writers can't be British. And on the Forum and stories on SOL, the "s" is there most of the time. And my inclination is to type it with the "s" and force myself to remove the "s".

So I was wondering if the Brit/American thing is bullshit. Being bored, I did an Ngram on it. According to the results, today it's used more without the "s" than it is with the "s". Surprise, surprise.

In the beginning of the graph (1800), it was mostly with the "s". I mean almost all. Maybe that is because literature back then was British literature. Or maybe the Americans hadn't made the change yet. (Did Webster change it?)

But beginning around 1835–1840, there is a pretty steep increase without the "s" and an even bigger decline with the "s". More American writers? Or is the "s-less" catching on?

And then around 1910, they cross (more without the "s") and it stays that way from then to current. That surprised me. As I mentioned, I almost always see it with the "s". But according to Ngram, more people leave the "s" out.

I was actually thinking of going back to writing it with the "s" (and the sister words — forward, backward, etc. as well), but now I'm not going to.

So what does Ngram really tell us?

Replies: helmut_meukel awnlee jawking Dominions Son Switch Blayde

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I was actually thinking of going back to writing it with the "s" (and the sister words — forward, backward, etc. as well), but now I'm not going to.

Did you look into the sister words? Same trend or not?
Because it's a language thing, inconsistencies are highly probable, even a reverse trend for one or more of the sister words.

HM.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Did you look into the sister words?

I assumed they would be the same. Wrong again.

"Forward" has hardly ever been spelled with the "s". It was a little bit in 1800 and went down from there.

Not so with "backward." In 1800, their use was the same, but without the "s" went up and with the "s" went down. Until 1826 where with the "s" was more common. But in 1865 they reversed course and without the "s" never looked back.

"Outward" is like "forward," hardly ever spelled with an "s".

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Etymologically the 's' is spurious since the root is 'weard' (Germanic) meaning 'turn'. I can only imagine we Brits put an 's' on the end to make it more pleasant to say, the 's' reducing the harshness of the preceding 'd'.

If you were to change the version you used based on Ngrams, that would be untoward ;-)

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

So what does Ngram really tell us?

I took a look myself. Specifically comparing the various corpi

English 2019:

Toward has overtaken towards, but they are close together.

British English 2019:

Towards is the clear winner, but there is a surge in toward.

American English 2019:

Toward overtakes towards in the 1880s and wins by a wide margin in recent decades. That said, as I see it towards shows no sign of completely disappearing.

So what does this tell us?

As an author, pick one and try to be consistent.

As a reader, chill, there's no reason to complain unless an author keeps going back and forth.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

As an author, pick one and try to be consistent.

There are over 1000 SOL stories containing both 'toward' and 'towards' ;-)

Son of Chronos: Book 1 Origin by Dominion's Son
🔽

... walked off towards the dungeon barn. Hercules sat and watched as Ruth ran toward the ... outside our normal jurisdiction, like Maks Alkaev�s, and killing everyone involved.� Ranger Thunderbird stood. ...

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

There are over 1000 SOL stories containing both 'toward' and 'towards' ;-)

I did say try to be consistent. :)

I wonder if there is anyone who uses both, but uses each differently.

For example, using one for movement and the other for orientation. "he walked toward..." "he looked towards..."

Replies: Switch Blayde REP awnlee jawking

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

For example, using one for movement and the other for orientation. "he walked toward..." "he looked towards..."

To my ear, that happens with "backward" as in:

He took a step backward.
He fell backwards.

REP 🚫

@Dominions Son

I wonder if there is anyone who uses both, but uses each differently.

It may just be me, but towards seems to indicate more aggressive action than toward.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

I did say try to be consistent. :

Apologies, I should have indicated my post was humorous. I'm sure you'll find many such inconsistencies in my own work.

I noticed one compound word I had spelled three different ways in one of my stories. I changed the master copy of my story but, since nobody has cared enough to complain about it, I haven't rushed to upload the corrections :-(

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Apologies, I should have indicated my post was humorous.

Did you fail to notice the smiley :) on the end of my own comment? No apology needed.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

No apology needed.

Thanks,

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Switch Blayde

(Did Webster change it?)

I found some pretty good sources: (I only used the "Quote" for the paragraphs that were in blockquote in what I copied.)

The first U.S. discussion of toward versus towards that I'm aware of appears in Joseph Hull, English Grammar, by Lectures: Comprehending the Principles and Rules of Syntactical Parsing, on a New and Highly Approved System, seventh edition (1833):

Many barbarous words of uncouth sound are still used by our best speakers and writers, notwithstanding there are those of the same import more pleasing to the ear; as whilst for while; amidst for amid; downwards for downward; upwards for upward; towards for toward; amongst for among; betwixt for between.

Unfortunately for a modern reader, it isn't clear whether the italicized words are the "barbarous words of uncouth sound" or "those of the same import more pleasing to the ear." On balance I suspect that Hull considered the versions marred by an extra x or s to be of uncouth sound, but if he meant to condemn towards, he was doing so without the backing of Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) which treated toward and towards as interchangeable with regard to the senses "in the direction of," "regarding," "tending to," and "near."

Perhaps the most significant development in the U.S. rivalry between toward and towards involves the treatment of the two words in the 1847 edition of Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language: Without any explanation, towards simply vanishes. And when it reappears in the 1864 edition of that dictionary, it does so only in the form of a one line entry reading "Towards. Same as TOWARD." Coequal treatment of the two forms doesn't resume until the arrival of the first Webster's International Dictionary (1890).

In any event, the next commenter on toward and towards, Alfred Ayres, The Verbalist (1896) is less ambiguous about his contemporaries' preferences:

Toward. Those that profess to know about such things say that etymology furnishes no pretext for the adding of s to ward in such words as backward, forward, toward, upward, onward, downward, afterward, heavenward, earthward, and the like.

Replies: richardshagrin awnlee jawking

richardshagrin 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

ward

"Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

ward

/wôrd/

noun

1.

a separate room in a hospital, typically one allocated to a particular type of patient.

"a children's ward"

Similar:

room

compartment

department

unit

area

2.

an administrative division of a city or borough that typically elects and is represented by a councilor or councilors.

"the second most marginal ward in Westminster"

Similar:

district

constituency

division

quarter

zone

parish

community

department

canton

verb

1.

ARCHAIC

guard; protect.

"it was his duty to ward the king"

2.

SE ASIAN

admit to or care for in a hospital ward.

Similar:

admit to hospital

admit

take in

let in

accept

receive"

Also a store, Montgomery Ward.

You can go to one ward (to ward) or to more than one and to wards.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

In terms of page length, I believe that's the longest post to date in this thread. And also the most useless.

Have you any idea of the amount of clean water you just wasted in the generation and distribution of that post?

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@awnlee jawking

most useless

Do comparative and superlative of useless exist? Does least useless count? Use least?

Do I get a clitoride for most useless?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

Do comparative and superlative of useless exist?

What's more useless than an honest lawyer?

An honest politician.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

An honest politician.

Isn't useless, it's mythical, like a unicorn.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

This is just hearsay but wasn't Jimmy Carter regarded as relatively honest and relatively useless?

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

wasn't Jimmy Carter regarded as relatively honest and relatively useless?

When you have to tack relatively on front of honest, that's not honest.

Replies: helmut_meukel awnlee jawking

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Dominions Son

When you have to tack relatively on front of honest, that's not honest.

When you have to tack absolutely on front of honest, that shows you regard 'honest' without qualifier as not honest.

Life isn't just black and white, there are shades and grades to nearly all things. One exception comes to mind: pregnant.
But even alive and dead can be gradual.

HM.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Relatively requires specification of relative to what.

When you say politician X is "relatively honest" without being explicit about relative to what, the presumption is relative to other politicians.

Relatively honest compared to other politicians is an exceedingly low bar. So low as to be meaningless.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

When you have to tack relatively on front of honest, that's not honest.

At the risk of drifting into politics, I was reading a supposed expert's personal appraisal of recent US presidents (before Trump and Biden). In his opinion, Jimmy Carter's principal characteristic was his honesty, which marked him out as hopelessly naive on the international scene.

However, I agree that there's no such thing as an honest politician ;-)

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@awnlee jawking

honest politician

This is a list of politicians renowned for their honesty, integrity and probity.

Marcus Aurelius — last of the Five Good Emperors, "he gave proof of his learning not by mere words or knowledge of philosophical doctrines but by his blameless character and temperate way of life."[1]
Rómulo Betancourt — the first Venezuelan leader to hand over power to a constitutional, democratic successor. "If moral authority and high principles counted, Rómulo Betancourt loomed as a titan in the history of Venezuela."[2]
Cincinnatus — the Roman senator who accepted life as a farmer after his family fortune was lost. He was twice summoned to become dictator of Rome and defeated its enemies but relinquished the office immediately once his duty Helped achieve independence with non-violent resistance.
William Ewart Gladstone — Victorian chancellor and prime minister noted for his fiscal and moral probity.
Václav Havel — last president of Czechoslovakia and the first of its successor, the Czech Republic. He was renowned for his moral principle of "living in truth".[2]
Abraham Lincoln — The 16th President of the United States, Lincoln was sometimes referred to as "Honest Abe."[3]
Ernest Vandiver — reforming Governor of Georgia from 1959 to 1963. Justice Joseph Quillian praised his integrity and fairness, "He is a person who has never learned to lie."[4]
George Washington — one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, was compared with Cincinnatus when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief after the independence of the United States was recognised.[5] King George III called him "the greatest character of the age".[6] The famous story of the cherry tree and "I cannot tell a lie" is thought to be apocryphal.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

On balance I suspect that Hull considered the versions marred by an extra x or s to be of uncouth sound

As per my prior post, my interpretation is the opposite - that words not ending in a harsh 'd' are easier to say and more pleasant to hear. The words in italics are examples of "those of the same import more pleasing to the ear; as whilst for while etc".

AJ

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Forum: Author Hangout

Ngram - toward/towards

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