Hey,
I'm probably just blind, but I just can't find any info on Bookapy about whether they have any restrictions regarding the content one is allowed to publish there.
Like, what if my Characters are having sex at sixteen?
For Bookapy, is it safe to assume that it will accept any content that SOL will accept as well?
For Bookapy, is it safe to assume that it will accept any content that SOL will accept as well?
No.
Because for Bookapy there is no anonymity for the author (to get paid) and it involves exchange of money, it must be fully legal in Canada at least:
https://bookapy.com/doc/content-standards
I'm trying to parse this and having trouble. Before I get into it, let me say clearly that I support Lazeez enforcing whatever needs to be done in terms of content standards for the best outcome for himself and the site(s), and taking a very restrained approach. The goal is not to push the lines, the goal is to be safe.
I think the operative sections are:
(b) any written material, visual representation or audio recording that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act;
(c) any written material whose dominant characteristic is the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act;
First, I Am Not A Lawyer. Does 'that would be an offence under this Act' include Canada's Romeo And Juliet act? In other words, is what is prohibited the depiction of or advocacy/counseling of sex which, if it were actual sex with actual people, would violate the law?
In that case (from the Canadian Government's website):
A 14 or 15 year old can consent to sexual activity as long as the partner is less than five years older and there is no relationship of trust, authority or dependency or any other exploitation of the young person. This means that if the partner is 5 years or older than the 14 or 15 year old, any sexual activity is a criminal offence.
There is also a "close in age" exception for 12 and 13 year olds. A 12 or 13 year old can consent to sexual activity with a partner as long as the partner is less than two years older and there is no relationship of trust, authority or dependency or any other exploitation of the young person. This means that if the partner is 2 years or older than the 12 or 13 year old, any sexual activity is a criminal offence.
If so, not only am I ok, but the rules are actually nominally more broad than SoL's rules. If a five year range starting at 14 is good, I've got no problems with my story, nor would many SoL authors (but not all, obviously - I'm sure there are stories with 1420 which fall afoul).
If that's not how to interpret it, I will follow up with a complicated example / series of questions.
Thanks! I'm asking this both because people have asked me if I would publish on Bookapy (which would take enormous editing if the law were interpreted the 'wrong' way) and because it's hard for me to know how the content standards answer Sarkasmus's question without knowing how to interpret it. If his question is interpreted in context with the Romeo and Juliet law, he's fine. If it's not, he's a no-go.
The Canadian law is a little schizophrenic. According to the wording, you can't have anything depicted in written words that is illegal to do in the physical world. The wording mentions under 18 as the age threshold for 'child porn' however, the age or consent in Canada is 16. So it is legal for somebody who is 50 to have sex with a 16 year old, so technically, the age limit for child porn should be 16, and not 18.
The issues with the wording of the law is what allowed us to get a ruling from a judge about the age of characters in the story and start it at 14 instead of 16 or 18. 14 is the old age of consent in Canada before the latest law.
So technically, as far as I understood from the lawyer and judge, for Bookapy, to be on the safest side, characters involved in sexual situations should be 18 and over.
Theoretically, any character 16 and over engaging in any sexual relationship should be ok as it is legal to actually do in the real world. Also, theoretically, a 14 or 15 year-old character can engage in sexual activities with a 18 year old, 13 with 15, 12 with 14 etc...
However, as Bookapy involves sales and exchange of money, the 16 and up is as low as one should risk using as there is way more incentive to extract monetary penalties for infractions and best stick to 18 and up.
Edite to fix age combinations.
The Canadian law is a little schizophrenic. According to the wording, you can't have anything depicted in written words that is illegal to do in the physical world. The wording mentions under 18 as the age threshold for 'child porn' however, the age or consent in Canada is 16. So it is legal for somebody who is 50 to have sex with a 16 year old, so technically, the age limit for child porn should be 16, and not 18.
The US is worse on this point. The US child pornography law is federal (age 18), but age of consent is a matter of state law and is not uniform nationally, there is a three way split in the US on age of consent (16/17/18 not counting Romeo & Juliet laws).
On the plus side, the US CP law only covers actual images of actual children.
However, as Bookapy involves sales and exchange of money, the 16 and up is as low as one should risk using as there is way more incentive to extract monetary penalties for infractions and best stick to 18 and up.
Okay, so, just to make sure I understand you correctly:
My story "Tiny Tim" features an MC starting to have sex at 16 and is 17 for the vast majority of the story. That could NOT be put onto bookapy, because it would be an unnecessary risk?
My story "Tiny Tim" features an MC starting to have sex at 16 and is 17 for the vast majority of the story. That could NOT be put onto bookapy, because it would be an unnecessary risk?
It's up to you. Our terms of services place the burden on the author. It's you who would be sued. Bookapy is just a platform.
The risk is minimal, but one never knows when money is involved. SOL is easy, no monetary incentives. Bookapy is a different animal.
Clarifying: if I felt that 14/14 relationships were an acceptable risk, I could publish on Bookapy? Or is that 16/16 only?
If I had to rewrite all 14/15, 14/15, 14/16 combinations, it would make sense to simply rewrite everything. Suddenly jumping to graphic depictions after two books without would be odd.
Clarifying: if I felt that 14/14 relationships were an acceptable risk, I could publish on Bookapy? Or is that 16/16 only?
I would rather everybody stuck with absolute minimum of 16 for descriptive sex, if one really has to and the story wouldn't work otherwise, but ideally it should be 18 and up.
It's you who would be sued.
Sued or prosecuted? Who would sue me?
In my most recent novel on Bookapy, "The Nymphomaniac," the mc starts having sex at 16. And she has sex with adult men. It wouldn't be a Coming of Age story if she were 18. And it wouldn't be realistic. I was already notified by someone that it is unrealistic for the girl to first discover masturbation at 16, even in 1953 when the story takes place.
Sued or prosecuted? Who would sue me?
Hopefully nobody ever. But who knows which authority decides to shove their nose where it shouldn't belong.
Theoretically, any character 16 and over engaging in any sexual relationship should be ok as it is legal to actually do in the real world. Also, theoretically, a 13 year old character can engage in sexual activities with a 17 year old, 12 with 16, 11 with 13, etc...
I think your math is wrong here. I read the statute and 12 and 13 year olds can engage in sex with people 2 years older: 12 with 13 or 14;13 with 14 or 15.
The 5 year limit applies to 14 and 15 year olds.
Also, as I read the child porn statute, it would not be a violation, in written material, to depict children of 12 or 13 having (consensual) sex with children in their own age group, unless it ran afoul of the obscenity statute.
That is how I read it, too.
As I said above, I have no issue with Lazeez going above and beyond to protect himself and Bookapy, but judging by the law, I wouldn't personally worry about combinations which are legal under Canadian law. For that matter, the odds of my being sued in Canada are terribly low - while the odds of Lazeez being sued in Canada are far higher.
Maybe, but we won't allow that.
Now that the rule is 14 and up, it would be very counter productive to go back to lower ages.
Theoretically, any character 16 and over engaging in any sexual relationship should be ok as it is legal to actually do in the real world. Also, theoretically, a 14 or 15 year-old character can engage in sexual activities with a 18 year old, 13 with 15, 12 with 14 etc...
However, as Bookapy involves sales and exchange of money, the 16 and up is as low as one should risk using as there is way more incentive to extract monetary penalties for infractions and best stick to 18 and up.
Does this apply to graphic sex, or any 'Dick and Jane went off into the bedroom for a while' off-page depictions?
I could potentially update things to remove all graphic depictions, but that people under 18 are having sex together is a fundamental, inescapable part of the plot.
It's my belief that you mean graphic depictions, based on e.g. the early volumes of A Well Lived Life being on Bookapy (all of which involve people younger than 16 having sex). One obvious answer is to buy AWLL1 Book 1 and see how Michael Loucks handled it, but that's not necessarily a canonical answer.
Pretty much, from my perspective, if AWLL is publishable on Bookapy, my story should be, but there's a question as to how much work would be required.
Does this apply to graphic sex, or any 'Dick and Jane went off into the bedroom for a while' off-page depictions?
This only apply to descriptive on-screen sex. Anything off-screen can be mentioned as long as it's done with minimal description and clinical manner.
For example you can say something like 'Linda was used and abused sexually by her uncle from the age of 8 until he went to jail when she was 14." That would be fine on any of our sites including Finestories.
However, as Bookapy involves sales and exchange of money, the 16 and up is as low as one should risk using as there is way more incentive to extract monetary penalties for infractions and best stick to 18 and up.
A large number of books on Bookapy do contain explicit underage (down to 14) sex. I'm not an author, but I thought that was one of the incentives to publish there rather than on sites that limit sexually involved characters to 18+.
I thought that was one of the incentives to publish there rather than on sites that limit sexually involved characters to 18+.
Not so much an incentive. You simply can't publish it on sites like Amazon. So without Bookapy, there'd be no place to publish it.
But under 16-yo sex is not allowed on Bookapy. Those folks are breaking the rules. They probably think SOL and Bookapy have the same rules.
But under 16-yo sex is not allowed on Bookapy. Those folks are breaking the rules. They probably think SOL and Bookapy have the same rules.
Per the Bookapy content rules Lazeez posted here, under-16 sex (when both partners are within 5 years for 14-15, and within 3 years for 12-13) would be allowed on Bookapy.
That's why I'm trying to pin it down further. As posted, the rules don't preclude sex between people below 16, and anyone posting there could reasonably believe it was allowed since the rules say it's allowed.
So far, the answer in this thread is clear as mud, and at this point I would stick with the content standard, which would make my story saleable as written.
Per the Bookapy content rules Lazeez posted here, under-16 sex (when both partners are within 5 years for 14-15, and within 3 years for 12-13) would be allowed on Bookapy.
The Bookapy content rules explicitly state that no under 16 sex is allowed.
Stories may not:
Include or contain any child pornography (images of persons under 18 nude or in sexual situation no matter how mild you think they are. No textual description of sexual acts or nudity of any character under 16 year old (the age of consent in Canada).
Ah, I see. That's in the Author Agreement, not in the Content Standards.
Makes sense, and maybe Lazeez should've linked that earlier, as it's much easier to understand than the Content Standards.
In that case, I'd have to remove all explicit sex, I think. It feels like it would be jarring to have two years of people clearly having sex, but it being off-page, and then suddenly it happening on-page, except when any of them is still under 16.
Mind you - I'm not opposed to doing that. It's just a significant chunk of work, not just 'let's do a quick cleanup, make an EPUB, and off we go onto Bookapy.' Some scenes will require serious rethinking, since there are insights into the characters within those sex scenes which should be visible to the reader but not visible to the first-person narrator. Thus, the narration 'We went off to the bedroom and enjoyed ourselves for a very pleasant interval' doesn't work, nor does 'We had a great time in the bedroom, but I could tell that something was bothering her. I just didn't know what.'
I'm curious as to whether other authors (whose works I know include textual descriptions of sexual acts and nudity of characters under 16) have made Bookapy versions of their works, or whether they are in violation and under the radar.
characters under 16) have made Bookapy versions of their works
I don't have two versions. I follow Bookapy's rules so when I write the novel I make sure the characters are at least 16 years old. In fact, I only have two where the characters are under 18 (well, there's a 3rd novel, but there's no sex in that one). And those two are not on Amazon because of their rules. I follow rules.
Now if I want to write a story with a character under 16, I don't write a novel. I write a short story for SOL. If I want to write a story with a character under 14, I don't.
I'm curious as to whether other authors (whose works I know include textual descriptions of sexual acts and nudity of characters under 16) have made Bookapy versions of their works,
My Bookapy versions are based upon site author agreement - no one under 16 having sex. Very politely, I am more concerned about what Lazeez thinks and HIS rules rather than Canadian Law in this instance - because as he has noted, the law there CHANGED regarding age of consent, and they still can't create ex post facto laws regarding both consent AND content.
For example, a 'happy ending' is illegal under Canadian law, but not considered an arrestable offense. Mostly because they've managed to bungle things up by making SELLING sexual favors NOT a crime, only PURCHASING them. Yeah, I know that makes no sense, but to paraphrase Laz - Canadian Law is a clusterfuck.
R v Sharpe (2001) - which is the foundational case upon which all current Canadian child pornography law is based - ended up with the case remitted. (Meaning that they dropped everything.)
However - there is additional precedent in Canadian law as well, where, due to artistic freedom, what one person may consider pornography, another would consider art, and thus it is NOT child pornography. Which is, again, where the comments I previously made in another reply also come into play. DON'T post images of the characters that are under 18 on the cover of your book - that's definitely against both the law AND the site rules. As for the written words INSIDE the book, you're good, even under Canadian law.
Keep in mind that Aroslav - aka Devon Layne - has probably FORGOTTEN more about writing and selling sexual stories than the rest of us combined actually know. His Team Manager Series is available on Bookapy. You're overthinking it.
Canadian Law is a clusterfuck.
Read a little further on and you find this;
Corrupting children
172 (1) Every person who, in the home of a child, participates in adultery or sexual immorality or indulges in habitual drunkenness or any other form of vice, and by doing so endangers the morals of the child or renders the home an unfit place for the child to be in, is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
(2) [Repealed, R.S., 1985, c. 19 (3rd Supp.), s. 6]
Definition of child
(3) For the purposes of this section, child means a person who is or appears to be under the age of eighteen years.
Is committing adultery behind a locked bedroom door really going to corrupt your 17 year old child?
Of course it gets complicated if the husband is a bisexual transexual and fucking his girlfriend and boyfriend and this threesome is happening in the family home without his/her wife's knowledge or consent, which is unlikely because the wife is asexual and has been protesting against the school because the teachers have concealed their support and encouragement for her 14 year old son who self identified as a girl, couldn't get a boyfriend as a date to a school dance so decided to became lesbian...
(3) For the purposes of this section, child means a person who is or appears to be under the age of eighteen years.
They'd have a blast with Shauna Rae. Or one of my wife's cousin's daughters, who looked like she was about 12 when she got married at the age of 24.
And the other note - any other form of vice. Where's the legal definition of that? Is it going out to smoke a cigarette? That's a vice. What about having the guys over for poker night?
It also doesn't say you're sorry.
It should be:
'I apologize, but your hypothetical is moot. The Mounties would never arrest Justin, eh?'
;)
What I'd have to do is probably see what Michael Loucks and Devon Layne have done with characters who are at the wrong end of the age range.
For me, it's heavy lifting in several places in Books 1 and 2, lighter in the rest (because, having made Book 1 'off-page', going back to 'on-page in 3+ would be jarring and pointless). The heavy lifting is because the sex isn't 'just sex' - there are specific reactions during sex that have a plot meaning. I can shift some things to pillow talk conversations, but trying to indicate that someone's behavior was 'off' in a way that the reader can spot but the first-person narrator isn't consciously seeing as 'off' is tricky when you can't see the behavior.
Of course, another alternative is to simply not sell Books 1, 2, and 3 on Bookapy (noting why that's the case). Book 3 is fairly easy to fix. Book 2 is moderately heavy lifting. Book 1 is tough.
On the flip side, if I ever want to post it to e.g. finestories, I have the same challenge.
The irony here, of course, is that those who face the biggest challenge are those for whom the 'sex scenes' are used to contain actual plot content. It's much easier to elide a sex scene where the sex is the content than one where elements of the description matter.
I agree that I'm overthinking it in terms of Canadian law, but in terms of Lazeez' rules, I don't think I am.
On the flip side, if I ever want to post it to e.g. finestories, I have the same challenge.
Finestories.com, yes. Scifistories.com, no. You just have to make sure you put it at 17+ for the reader age there. I have all five of my True History posted there.
Scifistories.com, no. You just have to make sure you put it at 17+ for the reader age there. I have all five of my True History posted there.
Does the scifistories submission wizard still say
Older than 17
May contain horror, violence, mature themes [no graphic sex]
The author agreement currently says
Age restrictions: Your work (stories, poems or blog entries) may not contain characters younger than 14 having sex or being in sexual situations (masturbation and nudism are not allowed). In other words, all characters that engage in any sexual activity must be 14 or older.
but it was recently updated.
AJ
(when both partners are within 5 years for 14-15, and within 3 years for 12-13) would be allowed on Bookapy.
That was for Canadian law for consensual sex. Not Bookapy. Bookapy is 16 years old or older.
Theoretically, any character 16 and over engaging in any sexual relationship should be ok as it is legal to actually do in the real world. Also, theoretically, a 14 or 15 year-old character can engage in sexual activities with a 18 year old, 13 with 15, 12 with 14 etc...
You are missing one other thing. The Canadian incest law makes sex between parent and child or between siblings illegal. That would make depiction of anyone 17 or younger having incestuous sex be classified as child porn.
(b) any written material, visual representation or audio recording that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act;
(c) any written material whose dominant characteristic is the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act;
Those are both the appropriate disclaimers - or more specifically, the key things - that take care of your Variations and my History.
Paragraph b - does your writing advocate or counsel sexual activity with a person under the age of 18?
No, it doesn't. You're not telling people to go have sex with someone under 18.
Paragraph c - Is the dominant characteristic the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years?
No, these are not simple stroke stories. While there is sexual activity, it is not included for a sexual purpose, nor is it the dominant characteristic of the story.
In other words, since what you are writing is NOT against the law in the United States (your place of residence) and under the Canadian law AS WRITTEN it is also not against Canadian law, Variations on a Theme is fine for Bookapy.
There's a lot of stuff on SOL that IS written for sexual purposes and advocates sex with someone under 18 years old, and THAT'S the stuff that Laz has to make sure doesn't show up on Bookapy.
No, I am neither a barrister, solicitor, nor a lawyer. My parents were married. However, I AM, by education, a Criminologist - which means I've studied the shit out of criminal, tort, and Constitutional law, including the precedents in English Common Law, and more importantly, know how to dig through the stuff to find relevant precedent.
(Many people confuse my degree with Criminal Justice, which simply studies criminal law for police work. That's typically a 2-year Associates Degree - mine was the 4-year Bachelor's AND I did the additional work and earned my Master's. Fat fucking lot of good that did me in the long run, but that's another story.)
In other words, since what you are writing is NOT against the law in the United States (your place of residence) and under the Canadian law AS WRITTEN it is also not against Canadian law, Variations on a Theme is fine for Bookapy.
That's exactly how I see it. However, as I noted, I would be highly understanding if Lazeez was to say, 'The law probably says X is fine, but to protect myself and my business, I'm setting the bar higher, at Y.'
That's why it's only partly a legal question. It's also a 'site policy' question.
I'm not worried about being prosecuted (or sued), thanks to geography and the difficulty of getting a conviction. My assessment of the risk is that it's extremely low. I am (comparatively) more worried about some 'morality police' (not necessarily part of the government) in Canada going after Lazeez.
Those are both the appropriate disclaimers - or more specifically, the key things - that take care of your Variations and my History.
Paragraph b - does your writing advocate or counsel sexual activity with a person under the age of 18?
No, it doesn't. You're not telling people to go have sex with someone under 18.
Paragraph c - Is the dominant characteristic the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years?
No, these are not simple stroke stories. While there is sexual activity, it is not included for a sexual purpose, nor is it the dominant characteristic of the story.
Paragraph b - That has been held to mean that the writing depicts underage sex (especially with older persons) as been acceptable, enjoyable for all parties, desired by children or common. You don't have to say "every kid should fuck their teacher."
Paragraph c - That may not have been how you intended it, but it is sure that is the reason many (most?) people read it: it is a sex story site after all.
Paragraph c - That may not have been how you intended it, but it is sure that is the reason many (most?) people read it: it is a sex story site after all.
And the stories have won erotic fiction awards.
AJ
And the stories have won erotic fiction awards.
Yes, they have. But erotic does not always mean pornographic, either. Unless you're Andrea Dworkin. And there wasn't much about her that was either. (Yes, I know she was molested at 10 years old. That was probably the last time anyone EVER touched her. She went MASSIVELY over the top after that.)
In that case (from the Canadian Government's website):
as long as the partner is less than five years older and there is no relationship of trust
Why would any Law insist that a juvenile ONLY fuck untrustworthy people?
Why would any Law insist that a juvenile ONLY fuck untrustworthy people?
Because it's written by politicians and lawyers, both known as untrustworthy.
HM.
@Grey Wolf
In that case (from the Canadian Government's website):
as long as the partner is less than five years older and there is no relationship of trust
Why would any Law insist that a juvenile ONLY fuck untrustworthy people?
In this context I would read "relationship of trust" as a legal term of art. As I understand it, it relates to relationships where one person has a legal duty to or is presumed to act in the best interest of another such as a fiduciary ( https://premierlegal.org/the-confidence-and-trust-that-encompasses-the-fiduciary-relationship/ )
In the context of the law at issue, I would think that they mean relationships such as parent/child, teacher/student, or doctor/patient.
In some US states sexual relations between teachers and students are prohibited even in cases where the student is over the age of consent. Similarly all or nearly all US states prohibit sexual relationships between doctors and their patients even where the patient is an adult.
Why would any Law insist that a juvenile ONLY fuck untrustworthy people?
One might suspect it's because lawyers and politicians are some of the most untrustworthy people on earth.
Gotta keep the goodies for themselves.
I'm not going to comment on politicians, but the most untrustworthy people aren't lawyers. They're clients.
lawyers
May be spelled differently but liar or lie yer are pronounced similarly to lawyer. Maybe Politicians draft and pass laws. And campaign for office "entirely truthfully."
May be spelled differently but liar or lie yer are pronounced similarly to lawyer.
Oddly enough, during an ad break in the prog I was just watching, there was an ad for a rerun of the legal drama 'Kingdom'. The announcer had a strong regional accent and it sounded as though she'd said 'liar'.
AJ
