Forum: Author Hangout

The Disappearing Comma?

JoeBobMack 🚫

I'm proofing some of my stories and noticed that Word sometimes suggests commas between clauses that ProWritingAid didn't. For introductory conjunctions, it's the opposite.

At least I think so. Right now, I'm so confused, my instincts are all off. I even went to read some grammar guidance on the web.

In general, I am getting the feeling that commas are used less in popular fiction today than the way I learned so long ago. Is that about right, or am I missing something? If it is becoming a matter of personal style, how do y'all maintain consistency?

Replies: awnlee jawking Switch Blayde helmut_meukel awnlee jawking red61544 ystokes Grey Wolf joyR ystokes ystokes Dicrostonyx

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

For introductory conjunctions, it's the opposite.

I'm a Brit. For us, they're optional ;-)

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

If it is becoming a matter of personal style, how do y'all maintain consistency?

For me, it's how it "feels." How I want the pace of the sentence to be.

Like "big, white ball." I often write "big white ball" when I think it flows better.

Fiction doesn't follow the strict rules of grammar and punctuation. For example, fragmented sentences are used for effect. Commas (or the absence of them) also.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@JoeBobMack

First of all, English isn't my first language, that's German.

I often see commas where I wouldn't place one, e.g.

"Are you, Richard Jackson?"

For me, the comma there is plain wrong. Any insights by native English speakers?

OTOH, some longer sentences without a comma are ambivalent in their meaning. I've to reread the sentence to get it.

HM.

Replies: helmut_meukel Pixy awnlee jawking Switch Blayde

helmut_meukel 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Another example of misplaced commas and semicolon:

even though his employees called him; "Big, Bad, John."

I would write
even though his employees called him "Big Bad John."

HM.

Pixy 🚫

@helmut_meukel

"Are you, Richard Jackson?"

I would say that it depends on context. If it was part of normal speech, then yes, no need for a comma...But... If it was part of dialogue, where the speaker was, say, badly injured and struggling for breath, then yes, the comma is fitting and aids the story.

Replies: awnlee jawking madnige

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

If it was part of dialogue, where the speaker was, say, badly injured and struggling for breath, then yes, the comma is fitting and aids the story.

I think an ellipsis works better there.

I'd say the comma is wrong unless the speaker is asking a metaphysical question ;-)

AJ

Replies: Pixy Dominions Son

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I think an ellipsis works better there.

I have no idea what you mean... LOL.. And I am partly too lazy to Google, but mostly because I would just forget it two minutes (if that) after reading...

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Pixy

I have no idea what you mean... LOL.. And I am partly too lazy to Google, but mostly because I would just forget it two minutes (if that) after reading...

Out of curiosity, I have just Googled 'ellipsis' because I genuinely have never heard (or remembered) of it, and found that it's basically three dots with spaces, used mostly to infer a trailing off of thought ... Oh the irony.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Pixy

used mostly to infer a trailing off of thought

Actually, it's most used to replace omitted words. But in fiction, maybe the trailing off voice is the way it's used most.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Actually, it's most used to replace omitted words

No idea, I Googled it and that's what the first result at the top said...

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I think an ellipsis works better there.

Is there a difference in the length of the pause implied by an ellipsis vs a comma?

Replies: Reluctant_Sir

Reluctant_Sir 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I believe so.

I tend to use an ellipsis to indicate a slightly longer pause, as if the speaker were searching for the right word, or mentally connecting the dots, as it were.

madnige 🚫

@Pixy

"Are you, Richard Jackson?"

I would say that it depends on context.

If it's a question with an elided phrase, like "Are you [in love with another], ", à la Four Weddings..., then a comma is correct and stands for the elided phrase.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

some longer sentences without a comma are ambivalent in their meaning

I hate 'garden path' sentences.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@helmut_meukel

"Are you, Richard Jackson?"

For me, the comma there is plain wrong. Any insights by native English speakers?

If he's asking the person if he is Richard Jackson, the comma is wrong.

If he's talking to Richard Jackson and is asking him "Are you?" then the comma is correct.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If he's asking the person if he is Richard Jackson, the comma is wrong.

What if there is a slight hesitation before saying the name?

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

What if there is a slight hesitation before saying the name?

The context would make it clear.

When something like a comma can confuse the reader, I wouldn't use it. So instead of using the comma (or even an ellipsis) for a pause, I might simply write that he paused, as in:

"Are you…" I paused as I stared at his face, "…Richard Jackson?"

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

for a pause, I might simply write that he paused, as in:

"Are you…" I paused as I stared at his face, "…Richard Jackson?"

To me, that necessarily implies a relatively long pause.

I was thinking something short, like just taking a breath between "Are you" and "Richard Jackson"

More "Are you" inhale "Richard Jackson?"

Replies: Keet Switch Blayde

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

I was thinking something short, like just taking a breath between "Are you" and "Richard Jackson"

We'll introduce a two-dot ellipsis for you. That's one dot shorter than a regular ellipses to satisfy your need for a shorter pause :D

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Keet

We'll introduce a two-dot ellipsis for you. That's one dot shorter than a regular ellipses to satisfy your need for a shorter pause

Yeah, that's not convincing me that a comma isn't perfectly appropriate for denoting a short pause in dialog.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

I was thinking something short, like just taking a breath between "Are you" and "Richard Jackson"

As I said, if the punctuation could confuse the reader, I'd find another way to do it. If it's a small pause, why bother with it?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The comma is used to indicate a pause for the reader, so it would be stupid to also use it for a pause in a character's dialogue. Having said that, Google found one case where it's apparently acceptable - when the speaker is stammering or repeating words.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde Grey Wolf

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

The comma is used to indicate a pause for the reader,

The reader should "hear" what and how the dialogue is said. The pause isn't for the reader. It's the speaker pausing so that's what the reader "hears."

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The reader should "hear" what and how the dialogue is said. The pause isn't for the reader. It's the speaker pausing so that's what the reader "hears."

Exactly - that's why a comma shouldn't be used.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Exactly - that's why a comma shouldn't be used.

I gave two examples. One that required the comma and one where the comma shouldn't be there.

Neither had to do with a pause. But someone brought up using the comma for a pause. I said that would be confusing and misleading to the reader so I wouldn't use a comma for that.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Commas have multiple meanings, at least in English. They can indicate a pause; they can also indicate breaks between clauses.

"Are you Richard Jackson?"

Replies: awnlee jawking Grey Wolf

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Where there's a possible conflict, they should be avoided, especially where there are superior alternatives. Certain comma usages are mandatory and they take priority.

AJ

Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

This is confusing; I wrote a fairly long post here and most of it seems to have just vanished, leaving just what's seen above. I'm not sure I can recreate it now. Sigh...

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Did your post include angle brackets?

AJ

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Quite possibly. I likely inadvertently commented it out or the like.

Replies: madnige

madnige 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

awnlee jawking

Did your post include angle brackets?

Quite possibly. I likely inadvertently commented it out

The forum posting software strips out all but a small subset of HTML commands, so you've likely had < ... > which gets interpreted as a (not-permitted) command and discarded, or a < followed by a non-space that's interpreted as the start of a not-permitted command which does not terminate, so all the rest of the post is discarded. To include < in a post, follow it with a space so the forum software knows it's not a command.

With the number of similar occurrences I've noted over the years, it would be useful if Lazeez would tweak the forum posting software so that a < followed by anything that's not a permitted HTML command, has that space inserted so a) innocently misformed posts retain the entered text for later editing, and b) people trying to use non-permitted HTML can see that it's been rejected, like < small>oops!< /small>

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

(Channelling my inner grinning dick)

Perhaps the commas were commandeered by the commandants of the commandments.

AJ

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

(Channelling my inner grinning dick)

Quick! Shoot one of them before they breed!!!

red61544 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

No one worries as much about missing a comma as they do about missing a period.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@red61544

ystokes 🚫

@JoeBobMack

One of my biggest pet peeves is the missing comma. For me a comma can make a sentence make sense by showing a sentence as two parts. So many times I have had to reread a sentence over because it didn't come off right and found a comma would have helped.

Mea-culpa, I never claim to understand the rules of writing.

Replies: Keet Pixy

Keet 🚫

@ystokes

So many times I have had to reread a sentence over because it didn't come off right and found a comma would have helped.

I sometimes encounter the same but also the reverse when there are too many comma's. Correct usage and placement are important for the reader.

Pixy 🚫

@ystokes

For me a comma can make a sentence make sense by showing a sentence as two parts.

Shouldn't there be a comma after 'sense'? ;)

Replies: ystokes awnlee jawking

ystokes 🚫

@Pixy

Shouldn't there be a comma after 'sense'? ;)

Mea-culpa 2, I never claimed to be good at spelling.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

No.

Americans would probably prefer a comma after 'me'.

AJ

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's a fair point...

Grey Wolf 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Word is (in my experience, anyway) really lousy at comma suggestions. Maybe better than nothing, but I'm not even sure that's true, since it'll badly overcomma some things.

PWA is considerably better, but even then it's important that you know what you're doing. I use PWA, though, and it has a much lower rate of giving me annoying suggestions I have to ignore.

Grammarly similarly seemed more annoying than helpful, so I mostly gave up on it.

joyR 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Punctuation is vital to ensure both readability and clarity.

Companies have lost millions because of a comma being present, absent or wrongly placed in a contract clause.

To suggest that commas are less important in a genre is to say that clarity is less important in that genre.

For those reading a Halloween entry, a missing comma changes the whole story;

"The cauldron is hot so it's time to start cooking AJ."

"The cauldron is hot so it's time to start cooking, AJ."

ystokes 🚫

@JoeBobMack

One comma too many. 3 commas, only 2 needed.

"Why I am the Viscountess Jackson, Ricks, Mum. I'm so sorry, but our time is up."

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@ystokes

One comma too many. 3 commas, only 2 needed.

"Why I am the Viscountess Jackson, Ricks, Mum. I'm so sorry, but our time is up."

Even I would like to see a comma after 'Why'. I'd also apostrophise 'Ricks'.

"Why, I am the Viscountess Jackson, Rick's mum. I'm so sorry, but our time is up."

AJ

ystokes 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I don't think the comma was needed after "why" even though it does look right. In a interview Rick was asked who else was involved and he said the Viscountess Jackson. When the reported asked who was the Viscountess Jackson his mum said that so I don't think a comma was needed to split the statement.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@ystokes

I don't think the comma was needed after "why" even though it does look right.

It's like "Well, I am…" or "Oh, I am…"

I don't always put the comma after those words, but I probably should.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If it were something unambiguous, like 'however', I'd agree with you. But 'why' has multiple uses and the comma disambiguates it as the exclamation.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But 'why' has multiple uses

It's a common way to start a sentence nowadays. The "why" doesn't mean anything and the sentence would mean the same without it. It could be: "well" or "oh" or "so" or any other word people nowadays begin sentences with.

Replies: awnlee jawking Grey Wolf

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

"Why I am the Viscountess Jackson is a consequence of my marriage to Viscount Jackson."

Garden path :-(

AJ

Replies: mauidreamer Switch Blayde

mauidreamer 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Except there isn't a Viscount Jackson .. yet.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@mauidreamer

Except there isn't a Viscount Jackson .. yet.

There could never be a Viscount Jackson as the husband was American and the title could not be passed down to kids.

Replies: mauidreamer

mauidreamer 🚫

@ystokes

True, for now, but I've learned to 'never say never' with this author ..

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

"Why I am the Viscountess Jackson is a consequence of my marriage to Viscount Jackson."

Different use of the word "why" so different punctuation.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Different use of the word "why" so different punctuation.

Exactly. Putting the comma after the exclamation makes it obvious to the reader where the sentence is going without having to parse ahead.

AJ

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Switch Blayde

In my opinion, there's a valid use of 'Why' in this context (note that I haven't read the original):

"Who is this 'Viscountess Jackson?' I have never seen her!"

"Why, I am the Viscountess Jackson, and Rick's Mum. I'm so sorry, but our time is up."

Yes, it's optional, but it captures a certain level of disdain that's lost if you drop it.

I would only use it for a character who's capable of a high level of disdain. Someone who is a Viscountess sounds like the sort of person who could look down on people very well indeed.

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Loosely speaking, there are two main writing styles in US publishing today. One uses a lot of commas, the other uses very few. As you can see from the comma in my previous sentence, I prefer the heavy punctuation style.

Most style checkers are shifting to the low comma style because it's more popular in business. The heavy comma style is more common in academia. Similarly, most newspapers and magazines have shifted to the low comma style, but a few of the more traditional publications are still using the heavy style.

As for maintaining consistency, get a style guide that is consistent with your preferred style. Or just use an online reference. The Big Four for writing styles in the US are: AP (common in journalism), Chicago (common in publishing industry), APA (common in social sciences), and MLA (common in humanities).

Look over a writing sample from each style, see which one is closest to yours, then get a guide and read it. That'll help you maintain consistency not only within your own work, but with respect to other writing by similar authors.

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Forum: Author Hangout

The Disappearing Comma?

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