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So, thoughts on 'The rings of Power'? (runs away quickly)

Pixy 🚫

Not being that familiar with the source material, I am not as emotionally distressed as those familiar with the work. It was an acceptable way of wasting a couple of hours. Will I watch the third? Yes.

I didn't find the main female elf lead a likeable character, and if the show was all about her, I doubt that I would have watched the second episode.

Why are all dwarfs Scottish? Why are all small folk Irish? Crikey! Is that Lenny Henry!

Did anyone else get the impression that during the raft scenes, land was about three meters behind the not very dense fog? In fact, I found myself watching the fog more than I did the what-ever was going on, on the raft, trying to work out if the shadow was mountains or something...

So in my mind, it wasn't great, but not a complete disaster.

And what about Amazons behaviour? This whole not allowing reviews for 70 odd hours, and then it extending it further beyond that. In my (limited) mind, that behaviour doesn't calm a situation, it makes it worse.

One thing I learned from it all, which I didn't know before-hand, was that Amazon owns IMDB. Which now explains why IMDB is cherry picking reviews as well. It's my humble opinion that when you start indulging in that behaviour, and it becomes known, then you completely destroy all trust people have in your review system. Yes, people understand there will always be individuals who will always vote low because, well, because that's just the way they are, and take that into account, but nothing sets off warning bells louder than refusing to allow dissenting voices.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

Meanwhile, on topic ...

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Results 1 - 5 of 5 files found for ["rings of power"]
1 - Paul's Big Find by Erotica Author
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... power and a great danger. Any one who was in a position of power and learned of the rings would do anything to get them. Could he give the rings to people in power ...
2 - Journey To Sxtlan by Vivian Darkbloom
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... of DNA converting mass into energy, yet an order of magnitude higher in the concentric rings of power. The cosmic atomic fusion of ...
3 - The Thief of the Rose by R22CoolGuy
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... of power as he tapped into the flow of Eldritch and began creating tendrils of power between the warrior and the sword. Pulsing threads of ... Azrael bound Lord Devlin in rings of power. A murmur arose in ...
4 - The Mystery of Magic by Gina Marie Wylie
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... of the Nazgul, but she thinks one of the nine rings of power is involved in some way. Much of that power ...
5 - Malachar's Curse by Dark_Desires
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... of the artifacts of the Architect is in play. Fact seven, there are four other rings of power ...

AJ

Replies:   Pixy  akarge
Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Is that you channelling your inner grinning Dick? 😛

akarge 🚫

@awnlee jawking

And now I have five more stories to check out.😟 Well, four actually. I have already read "The Bard's Tales" series. (R22CoolGuy)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@akarge

I have already read "The Bard's Tales" series. (R22CoolGuy)

Very good stories.

AJ

Remus2 🚫

@Pixy

No chance of me watching that show. PC has no place in fantasy stories imo. They made it clear the series would be 'inclusive' aka PC.

Replies:   karlkarlson
karlkarlson 🚫

@Remus2

Casting characters with brown skin doesn't make a series PC or anything else. I don't understand how grown adults can be so ridiculous about this. It's just a fictional made up show, there's no rule that the characters have to all have white skin. Good god, people get over yourselves.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@karlkarlson

I could care less if they cast brown, black, or green colored skin.
As for PC, that was out of their own mouths. I'd feel the same way if they went out of their way to cast a Native American, of which, I am half.
Changing that sort of thing does nothing to advance the story line. Which I am concerned with. Therefore, I make the choice to not watch it.

karlkarlson 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

that's fine, it's your choice and i respect that!

Mushroom 🚫

@Remus2

I could care less if they cast brown, black, or green colored skin.
As for PC, that was out of their own mouths. I'd feel the same way if they went out of their way to cast a Native American, of which, I am half.

I actually included that as a plot element in one of my stories. That most people tend to think of almost all fantasy characters as being "white", which is wrong. Who says you can not have a band of dwarves that wear feathers and talk like Lakota Indians? Or black skinned elves that are not evil? Or Latino halflings?

Just as humans come in many different shades and colors, why not fantasy races also? And it is not me being "PC", being a game player I have incorporated that into game plots I have made for over 4 decades.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Remus2  Pixy
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Mushroom

Who says you can not have a band of dwarves that wear feathers and talk like Lakota Indians?

Well, given that they are generally depicted as being miners and dwelling underground, if you are going to make them Indians, the descendants of the Anasazi cliff dwellers would make a bit more sense to me.

Plains and woodland tribes make more sense to me as Elves.

Of course, why limit yourself to the colors real world humans come in.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

the descendants of the Anasazi cliff dwellers would make a bit more sense to me.

If you spend some time talking to the Hopi over in four corners, you might get them to tell you the wood nymph tale. Which comes down via oral tradition from the Anasazi.

ETA: For that matter, even the Japanese have tales of a wood nymph called a Korpokkur.

If you dig enough, you'll find such mythological creatures everywhere there has been people long term.
A good example of that is the Australian Aboriginal Mimi.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Remus2

If you spend some time talking to the Hopi over in four corners, you might get them to tell you the wood nymph tale.

In dead tree, I follow the Alpha & Omega series which is a werewolf / somewhat paranormal romance series.

The male lead is a mix of Welsh and Indian (Salish/Flathead). Native mythology gets dribbled into the stories.

One book mentions the Cold Woman.

One of the stories has them facing off against a skinwalker.

The most recently published that I have has an appearance by Coyote.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

A piece of advice since you mentioned skinwalkers. If anyone decides to chat up any of the tribes in four corners, don't be wearing any animal skin clothing unless it's deer skin. The people who know the stories generally believe them. Skinwalkers included. The people who know the oral traditions will view you suspiciously and clam up if your wearing any animal hide other than deerskin.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Remus2

If anyone decides to chat up any of the tribes in four corners, don't be wearing any animal skin clothing unless it's deer skin.

Interesting. What about cow hide/leather?

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Even cow leather. That was what ran me afoul of them the first time. The second run was jeans and a cotton Tshirt. No problems then.

ETA:The timeline of my experience may have played a roll in it. My first visit was in 77. The last in 80.
I don't have any recent experience. The people passing on oral traditions tend to be on guard anyway though. They are subject to ridicule by those that would judge them for their beliefs. It doesn't matter what people it is, if they sense any ridicule or derision, they stop talking.
My own nation is good about that as well. When I was young, I listened closely and plastered a poker face on, regardless of my inner thoughts about what I was being told. Nobody likes being disrespected.

That carried forward to everywhere I've ever been. I worked overseas excessively, especially South America. The later area has many tales that never make it to a history book or paper. The people trying to Gen up a college paper had a habit of letting their disbelief be known.

Remus2 🚫

@Mushroom

Nothing prevents it. Where I'm taking issue is their stated purpose of making it "inclusive i.e. PC.

If they wanted to make a stand alone script rather than play off of LOTR, I'd probably watch it. But divirsity for the sake of diversity adds nothing to the plot of the story. To me it looks like a thinly veiled ploy to draw in a viewership. That is racist to me.
Let's add an ebony skinned elf because it will increase black viewership and make the poor down trodden folk feel better about themselves, is the apparent thought process.
Inclusion for the sake of inclusion is racist.
The worst part is they didn't need to go there. If they wanted a fantasy story, do some damn research. African American people don't need to fit into the Euro/white centric fantasy stories. They have their own mythological creatures in Africa. One such is the west central Africa Aziza.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziza_(African_mythology)
That is totally unrelated to any Euro centric mythology.
They are shoe horning a black person into the middle of a white/Eurocentric fantasy tale.
They may as well have said "African people can't cut it on their own, so us magnanimous white folk need to lift them up."

Pixy 🚫

@Mushroom

Just as humans come in many different shades and colors, why not fantasy races also?

Whilst that is a correct statement, you also have to take into account, that there is a reason, an actual biological reason as to why people are the colour they are. The biggest, (but not just) is sunlight.

We are the diverse colour we are, because of sunlight (and absorbed minerals). That's why people are paler in areas of restricted light and those in areas of abundant natural light are darker.

So to have a 'black' skinned dwarf is not just against 'lore' but also against 'nature' as well. The issue for many, is not the perceived 'racism' of not having a dwarf of colour, but because the biomechanics that require such a situation to exist, is contradictory and immersion breaking for the reader/watcher.

Traditionally in fantasy and lore, dwarfs live and exist underground, so their exposure to sunlight is going to be non-existent. Technically they shouldn't even be 'tanned', but alabaster. Think on it like having a well tanned vampire...

Obviously the only way in which to gain a dwarf of colour is through interspecies sex. But then that opens up a completely different can of worms. Mixed heritage seems to be more prevalent with elves in fantasy than any other race (other than human).

I have always found the fantasy setting of fiction, to be quite liberal. Racism has always been broached/talked about in many of the major works (of fantasy fiction), it's just that it would appear that the majority of readers don't see the subtext and juxtaposition between 'humans', 'elves', 'dwarfs' etc and 'white people' 'oriental', 'people of colour' etc etc. There is a reason after all, why Russians at the moment are called 'Orcs'.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Remus2

One issue with this is the comment 'Changing that sort of thing'. Tolkien was very, very sparing in the use of skin color for description. Some hobbits were described as 'dark skinned', and we get a bit of other descriptions from time to time, but for most of the work in question, there was no established color, so often nothing is being 'changed'.

Second comment: Changing that sort of thing does nothing to prevent advancing the story line. Yes, it doesn't advance the story line, but it doesn't hinder it, either. It might, if this were a story set in America at a time when certain skin tones were frowned upon, but it's not. Unless skin tone becomes a plot issue, it makes no difference to the story line. The difference is in the eye of the beholder, not the characters.

Consider actor X. Being a real person, actor X has a skin color, ethnicity, etc. Under which circumstances is actor X entitled to consideration for a role?
1) A role where the source material or setting explicitly references someone unlike X
2) A role where the source material or setting implicitly references someone unlike X
3) A role where the source material or setting doesn't explicitly or implicitly say whether X 'fits' or not
4) A role where the source material or setting implicitly favors someone like X
5) A role where the source material or setting explicitly favors someone like X

If you restrict it to 4 or 5, actors who aren't in the most common population demographic are going to have a lot of trouble getting a job. If you block 3 (most of Tolkien's work, for instance), you're denying someone consideration for no reason at all.

Even 1 and 2 have exceptions. 'Hamilton', for instance, famously cast against history and is stronger for it.

The whole flap reminds me of the casting for 'The Sandman'. Since it's a graphic novel, we 'know' what everyone looks like. Nevertheless, the creators of the show chose to cast some people who look 'different'. Is that wrong?

Given that the characters in question aren't in any way 'human', but are anthropomorphizations of concepts in many cases (or other supernatural beings in others), I'd say it's not wrong. So would the writer (who made the point in multiple volumes that these characters appear in different ways to different people).

There are times when this matters more, and times when it matters less. In 'Hamilton', as mentioned before, it matters more, because these are real people and we know a fair bit of what they looked like. In something set in America for most of its existence, skin color matters a great deal. That's not to say it's wrong to cast in a different way, but that it's a consequential act for the story (unless the goal is for the characters to ignore the discordance, as the characters in 'Hamilton' do - where the point is the effect on the audience, not the story).

Tolkien is an odd hill to die on over this in comparison, since there's nothing in his work to suggest that the denizens of Middle Earth cared very much at all about skin color.

Replies:   DBActive  Redsliver
DBActive 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

There is a large group of Tolkien fans that believes that the movies should be faithful to the universe Tolkien created. It's obvious from the books that he envisioned the elves, dwarves, Hobbits and men (on the "good" side) are white and northern European. That hard core group is obviously going to be disturbed when the casting doesn't match the universe.

The same is true of followers of any fantasy or science fiction universe: they go crazy when there is deviation from the canon.

Redsliver 🚫

@Grey Wolf

None of your arguments apply to Rings of Power, Grey Wolf. The forced diversity is a symptom, not the disease.

Can changing superficial qualities be neutral? Sure. That is not what being done in Rings of Power. Bad writers failed to create a good product and have armored themselves against criticism by claiming that the issue at hand is racists angry not the creator's own incompetence.

When something is "woke" it means it's not diverse for diversity's sake. It's diverse for politics sake. Art can't just be art. It's either a political tool to advance social justice or it's a tool of white supremacy. Which means the color of the skin is far more important than the content of a character.

It's played out before. Star Wars, M-She-U, Wheel of Time, Rings of Power. It'll play out again. Please not One Piece! The Tolkien fandom was just the first ones to raise the banners and fight against the degradation of their beloved property.

They did it with humor too. There's some really fucking great laughs to be had in the comment sections of the trailers.

Let's explore diversity. What was their reason for it? To make Tolkien accessible? Was Tolkien accessible to persons of color, women, and sexual minorities before Rings of Power? Yes, it is a brilliant universal story that speaks to the content of a person's character, not the color of anyone's skin.

The marketing of Ring's of Power, is that until now, black people couldn't see themselves in Lord of the Rings because they weren't represented. Tolkien was translated into over 60 languages, the story reached far beyond England. Asians, Africans, Latinos, Indians, Middle Easterners: people everywhere were represented and included, because Tolkien represented what it means to be human: Heroism, Loyalty, Adventure, Fear, Loss, Redemption, Overcoming Adversity, and other human universals.

When a show markets itself that it is diverse:

Look at this first Dwarf of color!
Now women are represented and powerful!
Finally we can all see ourselves in Lord of the Rings!

Take note that the creators aren't advertising their story, their characters, their world, their anything beyond the most superficial irrelevances. They do this because they probably don't have any content or characters under their colors of skin.

For the last five years, it's been pretty clear what will be woke-racist-religious fluff that you can just ignore. Rings of Power is just the loudest one of those. It's not 100%, Prey is fairly solid, if unambitious. House of the Dragon surprised me. They advertised it as pretty fucking woke, but the show is competently made. Unwoke is what real inclusion looks like.

The forced diversity is anti-inclusion. People want to see themselves in great stories. That's not what's given. No one should feel represented by sanitized hand-me-downs that neither face nor learn from adversity. Where all the characters we know and love are tarnished and degraded so that the new unadmirably-stoic always-right diversity-hire love-me-or-you're-a-nazi cardboard-cutout can be patted on the back and claimed to have earned a place with (or even above) the beloved characters who we witnessed actually go through hell and come out the other side with earned respect.

No one gives a shit about diversity when the story is good. People don't say: Predator had Carl Weathers, why would you make it political! Sigourney Weaver leading an action movie! Holy shit is Aliens woke!

The good news is more and more people can see the disgusting racism and hatred of the practice of being woke. The online campaigns that claim everyone who disagrees with the changes being made are racists, misogynists, and bigots don't have the legs they had even 1 year ago. A bad show is a bad show, and any representation in a bad show helps no one.

And it's not only the wokeness that's the trouble with Rings of Power. It would be bad even without pissing on Tolkien's legacy as it did by ignoring his hatred of allegory and disgust being of the politics of any moment let alone this one. Rings of Power is slow, it's boring, the dialogue is wooden, and it's four plots with the same story: a woman is warning of a big trouble, the men won't listen, and sooner or later the woman will be proven right.

Race swapping and that kind of superficial shit is mostly a battleflag. It's a way of saying "We're taking what's yours, because we can, and you don't get to have it anymore." It's disgusting, it's anti-inclusion, and it bleeds away the built-in audience that made the IP worth investing in in the first place.

Most people will think "This is shit." and walk away without a word. A lot of the people who try to voice their problem, focus on the symptom: forced diversity, will be disregarded because of the motte and bailey tactics of the woke folk. A lot of people can say "I know there's something wrong here." and not really put a finger on the problem. But there is a problem, they got that much right, and all the name-calling isn't going to fix anything. There's no surprise the people who love Tolkien and his work are disgusted and antagonistic to the vapid creators who shat this mess out.

Hopefully this woke shit will end soon. There's hope. There's good money in things like Top Gun, The Terminal List, and Jack Reacher. All good stories, with good heroes, that focus on the story not the politics. It's been too long since I've seen a great female hero or an amazing black actor take on a really terrifying villainous role. Because women can't be shown to be weak, and only white people can be evil.

Your arguments were about why it's OK to swap races, include different actors, and all the rest? Maybe everything you're saying is sound, but it's orthogonal to the issue at hand.

When you see this woke shit being done, when you hear actors on tour claiming "This is a great stride for women." or anything superficial and not the facets and depths of their character? Keep your money and give your time to some other project. If you must, only look at the viewer score on rotten tomatoes, because there is no such thing as a review bomb campaign.

John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@Redsliver

The good news is more and more people can see the disgusting racism and hatred of the practice of being woke.

That only means that the ones being discriminated against are feeling it more overtly. Sadly that means that in the current culture racism and discrimination has become very acceptable; even encouraged. The "woke" have no incentive to change their ways, on the contrary, these days it seems they have ever more incentives to become more extreme, and like every group gaining power, they will crave more of it.

Do whites have to go through a cultural and hopefully peaceful revolution like blacks did in the past in order to fix the imbalance? Will a cultural revolution by whites be enough?

Let's hope that things can be brought back to fairness and balance without a race war as that would only mean the end of the western enlightenment.

But then again, this may be proof that western style enlightenment is not a good survival strategy long term. Maybe enlightenment and diversity are a severe evolutionary handicap. Has there ever been a truly diverse group that survived the assault of a homogenous group of humans?

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@John Demille

I was saying it was good news because at most 1 in 12 people are woke. When a lot of people are seeing this racism and discrimination, they don't like it, and say something. Bravery begets bravery, more and more people reject them.

There are more good people in the world than there are wokies. We're beginning to see that.

Honestly, I think the enlightenment and diversity, subsets of liberalism, are doing fine. They have their flaws, they're not meanings systems though many have tried to use them as such and been left wanting.

They're excellent conflict resolution strategies. They don't stop you from falling into pitfalls, but they do offer ways back to climb back out that aren't up and over a genocidal mountain of corpses.

mrherewriting 🚫

@Redsliver

I don' think I've ever read a post this long before, in any forum, but . . . yep.

Remus2 🚫

@Redsliver

Agreed.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Redsliver

Now women are represented and powerful!

How is this depicted? I'm interested as the concept of a "strong woman" in fiction has captured my attention. Frequently, especially in fantastical fiction, it's often depicted as a woman who is physically powerful enough to defeat men in physical confrontations, and not just weak, untrained men, but highly skilled combatants. It's an interesting story-device that's often offered up with no explanation for the bizarre deviation from the world as we know it.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@JoeBobMack

That was part of a sarcastic moment of my rant, but it's a fair point to expand further:

I'm for it in some cases: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Kim Possible, A personal favorite: Yvonne Strahovski's character in Chuck - she's a superbadass spy girl that's 100 pounds if you tie ten pound weights to her ankles and she kicks ass. It's fun, the show knows its trying to be fun, and is fun all the way through.

All of these examples: they don't sacrifice the feminine for those pixy girl outfights the 300lb muscle wall with special forces training moments.

So long as the girl can lose, can learn, can grow - good thing, have her punch-fight that helicopter! I'm on board! Keep her flaws, keep her femininity, keep her setbacks, and let her reach out for help and direction. Even from a man! That's where character strength lies.

My problem is the Rey Palpatines, the Galadriels, the Captain Marvels, the Wanda Maximoffs - these characters were the best from before the cameras start rolling. It's the worlds job to catch up with them to find out.

Replies:   DBActive  Remus2
DBActive 🚫

@Redsliver

A personal favorite: Yvonne Strahovski's character in Chuck - she's a superbadass spy girl that's 100 pounds if you tie ten pound weights to her ankles and she kicks ass. It's fun, the show knows its trying to be fun, and is fun all the way through.

Off-topic, but Chuck is my absolute favorite show ever and Sarah Walker is the perfect fantasy woman.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@DBActive

Off-topic, but Chuck is my absolute favorite show ever and Sarah Walker is the perfect fantasy woman.

This is the most true statement in this entire thread.

Remus2 🚫

@Redsliver

A good example of making it work imo is the Witcher series on Netflix.
The elf with romantic interest in Yeniffer is black, as is some of the sorceress.
It's a safe bet that they were never intended to be since the tale is based in Polish myths over a thousand years back.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@Remus2

Also Henry Cavill didn't attack the fans who complained Triss Merigold wasn't the redhead they wanted her to be, expected her to be, and had evidence the original writer imagined her to be. Henry asked for patience, showed understanding for people who had a vision in their head in advance, talked up the actress who was for the role, and promised that everyone on set was working to make the best product possible. That's the response that's needed when people inevitably react to what may be superficial changes, but fear are political ones.

The trouble is that it does only go one way. Male characters can be gender swapped. Straight characters can be orientation swapped. White characters can be race swapped. Double standards are bigotry.

Gods of Egypt actually tried something the other way, having people and races from all over represented in the pantheon. It was a bland movie, but I doubt we'll see its like again soon.

It's also possible that a team could be working on a project is under a higher bureaucracy machine attempting to impose politics and the creators don't have the power to resist.

My example for this is the casting call for Netflix One Piece's straw hat pirates. (The main characters)

Wanted Latino Male to play Brazilian Monkey D Luffy
Wanted Asian Male to play Japanese Roronoa Zora
Open Casting for Female to play Swedish Nami
Wanted Black Male to play African Usopp
Open Casting for Male to play French Sanji

The double standard was clear. The author had a say in the casting and the five actors they got look great for the roles, with energy and excitement I appreciate. Almost everything I see from production is giving me hope. But the clear culture and machinery of Hollywood is on display.

Double standards hurt everyone. If you see a white actor get through the machine: he's the best out of all possible actors. If you see a black actor: he's the best out of all possible black actors. That's not fair. That's not kind. That's not respect.

Replies:   Remus2  Grey Wolf
Remus2 🚫

@Redsliver

Seeing Triss as a brunette did give me pause. She was definitely intended to be a redhead.
On the whole, they've done a good job without sacrificing on the alter of wokism.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@Remus2

I haven't watched season 2, but from what I saw, I'm happy with how they handled themselves.

Replies:   joyR  Remus2
joyR 🚫

@Redsliver

I haven't watched season 2, but from what I saw, I'm happy with how they handled themselves.

Netflix is screening masturbation?

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@joyR

We should be surprised if they aren't. Lotta content on there.

Remus2 🚫

@Redsliver

I've watched all seasons twice through. Season 2 was better than season 1.
Andrzej Sapkowski wouldn't likely complain, but some diehard Polish fans have. Then again, Witcher has an almost cult following there.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Redsliver

If you see a white actor get through the machine: he's the best out of all possible actors. If you see a black actor: he's the best out of all possible black actors. That's not fair. That's not kind. That's not respect.

And, to the point: that's not always true (or, alternately, it's true but deceptive). It could be true, but it could also be false, for every pair of actors. It's a piece of bad logic, in other words.

Assuming that the actor cast is the best actor (which is a huge, and often inaccurate - or at least slanted - assumption), the black actor could be the best black actor or the best actor overall. You don't know. Even if 'black' was 100% a requirement, they could still be better than any actor of another race.

By way of comparison: while the most recent Supreme Court nomination made certain characteristics more prominent, there is really no question, based on the historical record, that when Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed, only a woman would have been, and when Clarence Thomas was appointed, only a black person would have been. Does that mean that Justice O'Connor was the best female judge available, or the best judge available (with similar logic for Justice Thomas)? One can argue that point endlessly, but Presidents Reagan, and Bush the first, are the sole arbiters of 'best' (the Senate's role is simply to confirm 'good enough') for those appointments. Characteristics such as gender or ethnicity may be inherent to one's being the 'best' addition to the Supreme Court from some Presidents' perspectives and not from others.

Similarly, directors or producers can sometimes be the final arbiter of 'best.' If person X, who is making show Y, think actor Z is the best actor, that's the best actor. It's X's call. It's not your call, it's not some objective judge-of-actor-quality's call, it's the person with the final say on casting's decision.

This is true even if X is 'just plain wrong'. Perhaps X is a director whose talents make Ed Wood or Tommy Wiseau look like Spielberg or Hitchcock or (name your favorite director). That doesn't matter. It's their decision.

Note that I'm not saying that you have to like or agree with the decision. Plenty of people didn't like Sandra Day O'Connor, and a very large number of people have never liked Clarence Thomas, for purely judicial reasons. Doesn't matter. The 'better' judge those people wanted might have never been confirmed or might have worked out poorly.

Back to the original comment: that assertion (that a black actor is merely 'the best black actor' while a white actor is 'the best actor') is a form of the same statement that plagues discussions of diversity: if you see a person from group A (normally a non-majority group), they cannot be the best, but merely the best of group A. In order for this to be true, one must assert that there is always some person from another group who is better than the best person from group A.

Even if that were true, it ignores other characteristics. But, for the purpose of discussion, let's assume an absolute standard. Actor X is a 100. They're perfect. They are literally the best actor who ever acted.

Meanwhile, Actor Y is a 99.9. They're almost perfect, but ever 100 takes, they need a second take.

If Actor Y happens to be from a minority group, and actor X is from a majority group, must casting Y constitute picking 'the second-best actor'? Literally, yes, by definition within the hypothetical.

However, this ignores things like the director/producer/whoever's wishes, the effect the actor may have on the audience, the desires of the audience, etc. Those are inherently not objective characteristics.

On the other hand, suppose Y is 100 and X is 99.9, and Y is chosen. By the original statement, we're seeing a minority actor. Therefore, they cannot be the best, only the best of their minority. But, objectively, this is false. Thus the entire premise fails.

So much of this fundamentally rests on, and also causes, the presumption that, because Western society has always been biased towards the white, and the male, and thus there are far more roles for people who are white, and who are male, that we must in perpetuity recreate those works only with white and male actors. Actors who are of other groups need to find 'new' works, only. Their options are necessarily much fewer than those of white people and males.

This is true, apparently, even if the original author did not specify whether a character was white, black, or some other color. The default must clearly be white if the author was from Northern Europe, even if the character in question isn't even a human being, much less from Northern Europe. Clearly, someone from Northern Europe must have intended all of their characters to be analogous to Northern European peoples - even if the author in question explicitly and repeatedly denounced the idea of his stories being allegory or analogous to Northern European peoples and indeed detested the very concept of allegory.

To steal a quote: That's not fair. That's not kind. That's not respect.

P.S.: Consider 'Hamilton'. The argument here is that casting black actors as Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson (amongst others), while casting white actors as other people who were white (and no white actors as people who were black) 1) must be 'woke' (which is necessarily bad), 2) must mean that some better white actors are out of a job, and that 3) this hurts everyone. The very existence of, and success of, 'Hamilton' makes it clear that these are all at minimum highly debatable and likely false (#3 is objectively false); even if one dislikes 'Hamilton', the points remain the same.

John Demille 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Wow! so many words saying nothing of substance, all in defence of racism.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@John Demille

If you think what I wrote was a defense of racism, you clearly missed the entire point. Perhaps you simply didn't read it, in which case TL;DR would have sufficed. Actually reading it, and getting 'defense of racism', would be a staggering failure in basic reading comprehension.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

It came across that way. Tokenism to increase diversity is a form of racism in its own right.

AJ

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I was arguing against the statement: "If you see a white actor get through the machine: he's the best out of all possible actors. If you see a black actor: he's the best out of all possible black actors."

That statement requires that there is always a white actor better than any black actor. Arguing against such a statement is not racist.

'Tokenism' is in the eye of the beholder, admittedly, but nothing I said was intended to argue for tokenism. I'm not in favor of tokenism.

The thought process seems to me to require the following mental gymnastics: even though the core argument is that members of a minority can be just as good or better at acting than members of a majority, and the decision on how 'good' an actor is subjective and properly made the person doing the casting, casting a member of a minority is 'tokenism' unless the part was explicitly written from the start as being of that minority group, and therefore arguing in favor of casting a minority in any part not explicitly written for a person from that group is racist.

Which is ... absurd.

John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

If you think what I wrote was a defense of racism, you clearly missed the entire point.

No I didn't. Your point is to drown out the arguments in minutia as to make arguing against it tiring.

You're defending racism.

Communists (or woke) have made it controversial to hire a white man for almost anything. England's new cabinet have made waves when they expressed their pride that the new cabinet contains no white men in any significant position. They showed their pride on excluding 46% of the population for no good reason.

You're arguing that it's very justifiable, and not controversial at all to remove white people from every significant white-produced literature. You're all for white erasure.

You're a communist.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@John Demille

By supporting there being more jobs open to people who aren't white, I'm supporting racism.

Got it.

In talking about a show that stars many white people, and for which I haven't once said even a single white person should have been non-white, I'm 'justify[ing] [...] remov[ing] white people' - notwithstanding that not a single white person has been 'removed'.

Got it.

In my own book, virtually all (not all, but nearly) of the major characters are white. Therefore, I'm 'all for white erasure'.

Got it.

In supporting the right of a private business to operate as they choose, I'm a 'communist'.

Got it.

You, Sir, are either quite literally insane, or are simply determined to misquote and misinterpret everything I say so that it suits your agenda. You're a lunatic, either way.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

By supporting there being more jobs open to people who aren't white, I'm supporting racism.

Yes. The fact that you see people's skin colour and care about it, makes you racist. Advocating for anything other than meritocracy in hiring makes you racist. Wanting people who are specifically non-white to have more jobs makes you racist. Treating white people differently because they're white is racism.

A person who is not racist doesn't treat people according to the colour of their skin. Anti-racist is euphemism for anti-white.

Why did the woke deprecate MLK's famous saying:

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character"

In supporting the right of a private business to operate as they choose, I'm a 'communist'.

You only support businesses making decisions that align with your world view.

I would ask what would you think or say if let's say those same studios cast Chris Hemsworth in the role of Black Panther? Would you say they're a business and they're free to run their business the way they see fit? You probably will lie and say yes, but we know what you would actually do if it were to happen.

Your labels have no effect on me. You can call me whatever you want and I don't care. I know what you are, and having come from a country with no freedom (I'm Iraqi), I fight anybody that tries to take my freedoms in the west. The Woke, the feminist, Antifa, BLM are all fronts for the same communist bullshit. All of them work the same way, all are communists hell bent on seizing as much power as they can so that they can impose their sick world view on the normal people.

I'm not white so you can't intimidate me with your racist bullshit. But even as a non-white person, I abhor the shit that communists are flinging at white people. You've cast white men as your token enemy and you fight against them in order to destroy western civilization. It's despicable.

Yes, you are a communist.

If, and that's a giant IF, you really don't think you're a communist, then you should do some introspection into what your thoughts amount to.

Replies:   ystokes
ystokes 🚫

@John Demille

Yes, you are a communist.

Somehow I don't think you know what that word means.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫

@ystokes

I'm sure I don't think it means what you think it means.

Replies:   ystokes
ystokes 🚫

@John Demille

That's your comeback?

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@ystokes

I'll humour you.

To me, when I call somebody a communist what I means is they belong to a (currently huge) group of cultural authoritarians that are using old communist tactics to try to gain as much control over society via a new wave of socialism. They want to control what you think, what you do, what you eat, what you buy. They want to control everything.

They are hopeful to one day achieve old style communist power over the masses. They see theirselves better than us mere plebs/proletariat.

They don't trust us to make the right decisions on our own so they want to take every freedom we have because they think we're too stupid and untrustworthy to be allowed to make up our minds and that we'll always make the wrong decisions. They want us to shut up and listen and be in awe of their superior thoughts and intellect.

Those communists' definitely want to destroy western style freedoms. They are succeeding. They've infiltrated every institution in the west and are actively destroying the whole apparatus.

Now I'm pretty sure that this is not what you understand with the word communist. Just like the human rights movement morphed into an anti-white, anti-equality, anti-justice movement, so the word communist, it evolved to describe these people.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@John Demille

Just like the human rights movement morphed into an anti-white, anti-equality, anti-justice movement, so the word communist, it evolved to describe these people.

As much as I am a descriptive grammarian, this is (again) insanity of the 'a word means what I mean it to mean, no more and no less' style.

I might as well call you a kitten repeatedly, and - when question - explain that the word kitten has morphed into describing someone who claims to know the innermost thoughts and feelings of someone he's never met, and also commonly uses words to mean the opposite of what they normally met.

'Communist' has a well-defined meaning having to do with economics and the ordering of society. It has literally nothing to do with 'anti-white' and precious little to do with 'anti-equality' or 'anti-justice'.

You're welcome to use the word the way you mean it to mean. Call me an aardvark, and explain that aardvark means woke.

Just don't expect anyone to understand or agree with your bizarre redefinitions.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫

@Grey Wolf

'Communist' has a well-defined meaning having to do with economics and the ordering of society.

You're using the words 'anti-racist' to describe actual racism (anti-white). You have no legs to stand on.

Redsliver 🚫

@Grey Wolf

I assume I was unclear.

The point of my follow up was entirely that having bigoted double standards is a bad thing. And it hurts even the people it claims to help.

By advertising the double standards, by showing off the double standard, by defending the double standard, the machine robs actors selected by it of the validity they should have.

The machine disrespects the people who get the job under the shadow of bigotry.

The machine is unfair to the people who are turned away in the name of bigotry.

The machine hurts the project by miring it down in of-the-moment politics that are transparently bigoted.

If the machine, which has loud and advertised double standards, is used, the audience who sees the people go through it and come out the other side will have justified questions about the quality of that actor.

Questions that are likely unfair to the actor, but are more than fair to the machine.

Replies:   Grey Wolf  Marius-6
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Redsliver

You were not unclear. You see a double standard where there is not clearly a double standard. Because you see a double standard where there is not clearly a double standard, you make a number of incorrect assumptions, such as that someone '[got] the job under the shadow of bigotry', or that 'people [...] are turned away in the name of bigotry', or that it 'hurts the project', some of which are - in some cases - objectively false, and the last one of which is entirely subjective.

Again, this started with a discussion of Tolkien, who would have utterly lambasted anyone who claimed his work was 'inherently Northern European' in terms of the physical characteristics of the characters, especially the non-human characters.

You make the completely incorrect assumption that there is always a white actor better than the best black actor, and justify it by referring to some claimed 'double standard'. Whether you meant to or not, that is literally what you claimed, and it's indefensible.

In essence, this is the very same argument people made about flight attendants fifty years ago: "All flight attendants have always been pretty women; therefore, they should be able to continue hiring that way. Anyone who's not a pretty woman (by our standards of 'pretty') must be a diversity hire and is therefore lesser than the pretty woman who they would have hired. It's a double standard - people who aren't pretty women are encouraged to apply!'

Of course, sometimes there are double standards. Those double standards aren't always anti-white, and they're definitely not in all projects - nor are they always unjustified (back to the 'Hamilton' example, for instance, where there's little doubt that the 'double standard' in question helped the project).

Replies:   DBActive  Redsliver
DBActive 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Again, this started with a discussion of Tolkien, who would have utterly lambasted anyone who claimed his work was 'inherently Northern European' in terms of the physical characteristics of the characters, especially the non-human characters.

You certainly cannot know what he would have said about the color if his major characters. He probably never thought much about it, except for Bilbo who appears a a middle-aged, middle class English gentleman. In contrast, he does describe the skin color of the Haradim and orcs as different.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@DBActive

No, but I can say that he argued vehemently against perceiving his work as pertaining to or being allegorically 'connected' to any particular society or culture, which is what most of the 'Tolkien's characters must have been white!' arguments are based on.

Again: these are (largely) non-human characters whose skin color was not given in the original work. Arguing that it is somehow wrong to cast a non-white actor as a character who is not human and is of indeterminate color, in a world where color is not ever seen to be a major factor in interactions, seems ridiculous to me.

Even if they were provided, I could still support casting against the original description, provided it's acknowledged either in terms of the story or as part of the meta-story (e.g. 'Hamilton'). But in the case of Tolkien, the naysayers are inventing arguments contrary to Tolkien's own statements in order to justify opposition to casting a character who was never 'white' as 'non-white'.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Grey Wolf

But in the case of Tolkien, the naysayers are inventing arguments contrary to Tolkien's own statements in order to justify opposition to casting a character who was never 'white' as 'non-white'.

Now you're just spouting bullshit.
https://oldnorse.org/2021/03/11/elves-dwarves-in-norse-mythology/
https://www.worldhistory.org/Edda/
Tolkien used the Edda as a base for the characters.
There is no inventing arguments.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Remus2

Sigh.

Yes, Tolkien 'used' the Edda.

Tolkien also used many other sources.

And Tolkien was adamant that The Lord of the Rings and his other works are not allegorical, nor tied to Northern Europe.

It's 'inventing arguments' to say that Tolkien 'expected' his characters to 'look' Northern European when Tolkien 1) did not describe their looks in that way in most cases and 2) explicitly disclaimed there being some connection to Northern Europe.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Yes, Tolkien 'used' the Edda.

Tolkien also used many other sources.

Thus the characters and races (elves, dwarfs, ...) inherit the properties as described in the sources. If he had intended to change some of the properties he should have done it explicitly in his works. I see his disclaims afterwards as trying to deflect accusations.

HM.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Tolkien 'used' the Edda as a source. He didn't cite it. Why should he have explicitly 'changed' properties he never cited in the first place? Is the theory that one cannot properly understand Tolkien's work (even enough for a surface understanding) without reading the source works?

Redsliver 🚫

@Grey Wolf

You make the completely incorrect assumption that there is always a white actor better than the best black actor, and justify it by referring to some claimed 'double standard'. Whether you meant to or not, that is literally what you claimed, and it's indefensible.

No, I did not claim that. I did not make this assumption at all. I never implied it.

I stated that a black person picked from a pool of all races had more competition than a black person picked from a pool of black persons.

There are more cars than there are red cars. True or false?

I make the statement that there is a double standard. - I even showed a CLEAR example of it in the casting call for Netflix's One Piece adaptation. They were comfortable asking for actors Asian, black, or Latin. They did not (perhaps could not) ask for someone white.

I make the statement double standards hurt people who are denied by them. - Obviously a racist double standard hurts people victimized by racism.

I make the statement that double standards hurt the people who are supposedly benefitted by them. - The optics of someone who was picked by a racist double standard encourages everyone to question if he was chosen for his merits or was he just picked because he was some executive's passing fashion choice.

It's not fair - to the actor of color chosen for the role.
It's not kind - to the ACTOR OF COLOR chosen for the role.
It's not respect - to the ACTOR OF COLOR chosen for the role.

Is it clear now? Because you didn't get who I was claiming was being treated unfairly, unkindly, and disrespectfully.

Apologies for the italics and emphasis. It's not a swell of frustration and anger. I'm a writer and I want my points to be clear I hope this helps focus things.

Also, here's a twitter thread by a researcher, Dr Thala Siren, talking about fan-baiting: the practice of marketing vs imagined racists, and how it's used to coverup of poor writing and storylines:

https://twitter.com/DrThalaSiren/status/1568182048564875265

It's 10 tweets long, with a few extras as follow up, and describes the process and machine I've been opposing this whole thread.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Redsliver

For those who don't like to read, this is definitely TL;DR. Read the first paragraph or so (quote and my reply), then skip to the last two. It'll be fine, and certainly much better than deciding that I wrote the opposite of what I wrote.

I completely fail to see how it's possible to read:

If you see a white actor get through the machine: he's the best out of all possible actors. If you see a black actor: he's the best out of all possible black actors.

as NOT making the assumption that there is always a white actor better than any given black actor. It's inherent in the text. There's no way for that statement to work unless there is always a white actor better than any black actor - otherwise, you would never know if the white actor was the best out of all possible actors.

Converting it to a tournament:

Tournament X has only white people. A wins. A is the best white person.

Tournament Y has only black people. B wins. B is the best white person.

Person Z picks a face for the cereal box. Based on your statement, if you see A, they're the best person. If you see B, they're the best black person.

Suppose now there's a tournament Q in which everyone competes. B wins. B is the best person.

However, Z still puts A on the cereal box. Based on your statement, that means you know A is the best person. After all, you're seeing a white person, and if you see a white person, they must be the best.

Do you see the contradiction now?

I stated that a black person picked from a pool of all races had more competition than a black person picked from a pool of black persons.

You didn't actually state that. You might have implied that. It's certainly true, no dispute there, but it has little to do with anything.

There are more cars than there are red cars. True or false?

True, and also with little connection to anything.

Yes, your original statement might have simply been awful phrasing on your part, but it's extremely awful phrasing, and it absolutely does state, assume, and imply that there is always a white actor better than any black actor.

As for the rest... one casting call might (maybe) imply a double standard in one production. Maybe. I'm not even sure that it's a double standard, considering the two societies for which 'any actor may apply' are statistically more multiracial than the others (with the POSSIBLE exception of the 'African' character, if one includes South Africa and certain parts of North Africa).

Your twitter thread is interesting, but it's opinion, and it's absolutely not an opinion shared by everyone. Some people differ vigorously.

I make the statement that double standards hurt the people who are supposedly benefitted by them. - The optics of someone who was picked by a racist double standard [...]

Yes, you absolutely make that argument. The problem is that it relies on the assertion of 'double standards', which is subjective and on which reasonable people may differ.

I'm going to rephrase slightly to make it more obvious (note: I am using SoL's quote tool to highlight this, but I am not stating nor implying that this is actually a quote):

I make the statement that I perceive there to be double standards. I even showed an example that makes it clear to me that there's a double standard.

Because I see a double standard, anyone who doesn't get the job might have been hurt by that double standard. And because I see a double standard, I think it hurts the people who do get the job, because I'm going to question whether they were chosen for their merits or if they were just picked because they were fashionable.

These double standards that I see aren't fair, kind, or respectful to the actor who got the role because people like me might think they got their role unfairly.

Is it clear now? You are letting your perception cause you to make negative judgments of people who might well be the best possible actor for a role, and you're claiming that makes someone else biased and judgmental.

Suppose person X thinks that black people are always better than white people at sports (there unquestionably exist people like X). Person X thinks there's a double standard in place because sports-team owners believe white fans like having white players to root for (there are unquestionably people who believe that). Person X believes that this means that, when you see a white player, they're the best white player, but when you see a black player, they're the best player, and that, therefore, it's unfair, unkindly, and disrespectful when white players are hired. Does person X's perception of a double standard mean that sports-team owners should stop hiring white people?

Again: I'm not arguing that there are never double standards. Of course, sometimes there are. But I am making the argument that there are not always, or even routinely, double standards, and I'm also making the argument that sometimes (fairly uncommonly) there are double standards which work against members of minorities and for people who are in the majority group (for instance, casting in which all of the 'main characters' are white, but the 'supporting characters', particularly minor ones, can be white or non-white).

It is trivial to find casts which are all, or nearly all, members of a majority group, even where there's no particular reason why a group of people in that setting would be all members of a majority group. It's trivial to find casts where the minority group person was clearly cast to be a token. These are also double standards, but they're completely the opposite of the ones you're citing.

Admittedly, if one twists logic into a pretzel, it's possible to claim this is 'racist' against members of minorities not because they aren't considered for major roles but rather because their minor characters are 'tokens'. Much better for members of minorities if they can't get a job at all than if only minor roles are available, don't you know? No one will think they're a 'token' if they don't even appear at all, after all. Instead of dealing with the real problem - lack of major roles - we can cast an all-white show and claim we're completely free of any racial concerns at all while doing it.

There isn't 'a machine'. There are dozens of machines. Many of them operate completely differently from others. You're inventing an all-powerful machine, accusing it of racism, and using it to form assumptions which are unfair, unkind, and disrespectful to the very people you're claiming are being treated unfairly, unkindly, and disrespectfully.

Again: This whole thread started because some people are upset because characters who were never white in canon (some don't exist in canon at all), but only in some people's imagination, were cast to be played by non-white actors. In what way does this reference a 'machine' which is 'unfair' to actors of color? In what way is it unfair, unkind, or disrespectful to pick a non-white actor to play a not-canonically-white character?

This is not a one-off for Tolkien. Some people (not implying you, personally) went nuts over the inclusion of non-white people in Star Wars, notwithstanding that it's not even set on Earth, we have no idea what ethnicities are common in that universe, and (based on precedent) there do not seem to be significant social differences between people of different ethnicities. How can it be 'unfair, unkind, or disrespectful' to an actor to choose them to act in a Star Wars movie - even if their character was written explicitly to be 'diverse'? Because some fans will think bad things about them? Some fans will make unwarranted assumptions?

Boiling it down, and I apologize for being somewhat blunt: your argument is literally that it's bad to do something (with your own production!), that you think is a good idea, if doing that thing might cause some people to make unfair, unkind, and disrespectful assumptions.

To heck with the people who won't get a chance at a job at all because they're the 'wrong' ethnicity (again: for a character who is not defined to be white!). It's more unfair, unkind, and disrespectful to hire them than to not hire them, because some people will think they were hired due to a 'double standard'.

What is your proposed solution? We can't write new non-white characters for any existing story - that's 'racist'. We can't make existing non-specified characters non-white - that's 'racist'. Surely we can't make existing white characters non-white - that's 'racist'. Is the only way to be 'non-racist' to only hire white people when producing anything based on or resembling any existing work? How should a right-thinking, intelligent, caring production company handle casting in a way that doesn't play into anyone's possible theories of double standards and doesn't alienate anyone who only wants to see people who look like the people they've already seen? How many roles are you willing to completely bar non-white people from even being considered for in the name of treating those people fairly, kindly, and with respect? Is the only place for non-white people to be in pre-existing not-white roles or in completely new stories with no connection to anything existing?

As you said, you might have been misunderstood, and - if so - I'll await clarification. My argument is solely with what you've written, not what you might be thinking. As you said, you want your points to be clear, and I can't find a way to read what your words clearly say without it leading to the conclusions above - that because someone might have a perception of a double standard, that makes it fine to simply refuse to even consider anyone who someone might perceive to have benefited from that double standard, even if the role they are being hired for is a new character explicitly written for a non-white actor, or even if the character was never given an ethnicity at all by the original author.

Redsliver 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Thank you for forcing me to better clarify my position.

However, you are not arguing against that position, so continuing in the argument is pointless.

Replies:   John Demille  Grey Wolf
John Demille 🚫

@Redsliver

However, you are not arguing against that position,

Motte and Bailey. Common leftist tactic.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@John Demille

No, A motte and bailey not what he's doing.

He doesn't have a sane backup to retreat to when I make a claim against an insane forward position.

He is arguing against something I didn't intend. I could uncharitably call it a strawman, maybe. But I think that would be inaccurate as well, and I don't see any reason to be uncharitable.

Morality binds and blinds. He had an intuition against a misunderstanding of my point - which may have been my fault before I clarified it further. However, his morality excited, he tunnel-visioned in on what he interpreted, not what I tried to communicate, and has been having a fight with that intuition and not my argument.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫

@Redsliver

He is arguing against something I didn't intend. I could uncharitably call it a strawman, maybe. But I think that would be inaccurate as well, and I don't see any reason to be uncharitable.

I'll take your word for it. I stopped reading all his drivel once I realized his purpose.

Woke leftist never argue in good faith. They're in it to win and advance their agenda. They'll strawman your arguments and drown you in their bullshit.

Bullshit is easy to make up and expensive time-wise to refute, so their strategy is to throw a bunch of bullshit out and while you're refuting their first bullshit, they have the time to make up more bullshit.

It's best to shut down the argument right away and save your time.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@John Demille

And because you are all-seeing and all-knowing, you 'know' that I am a 'woke leftist'. Therefore, I cannot be 'arguing in good faith', saving you the bother of actually reading anything. It must be nice to just know everything without the burden of actually obtaining information the way regular people do.

However, in the world of facts, I am not a 'woke leftist'. Woke is a nonsense word, meaning 'something I like' to people who are woke and 'something I dislike' to people who are anti-woke. I am a centrist, not a leftist. I am not anti-white, nor am I anti-male.

I am also arguing in good faith.

With that, good day.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫

@Grey Wolf

I am not a 'woke leftist'

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck... You know...

Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@Redsliver

Have you clarified your position? Did I miss it?

I am definitely arguing against your position there is one machine which binds them all, and that there is one double standard and never any other double standard.

I am also arguing against your position that because you perceive there to be a double standard, everyone must therefore act in a way that doesn't make you think someone was disadvantaged.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Tournament Y has only black people. B wins. B is the best white person.

I'm not sure how that's possible ;-)

AJ

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Typo. Sigh.

Marius-6 🚫

@Redsliver

having bigoted double standards is a bad thing. And it hurts even the people it claims to help.

By advertising the double standards, by showing off the double standard, by defending the double standard, the machine robs human beings selected by it of the validity they should have.

The machine disrespects the people who get the job under the shadow of bigotry.

The machine is unfair to the people who are turned away in the name of bigotry.

The machine hurts the project by miring it down in of-the-moment politics that are transparently bigoted.

If the machine, which has loud and advertised double standards, is used, rational human beings who see the Sausage go through it and come out the other side will have justified questions about the quality of that Human Beings regardless of skin color. Worse they too often become Vitriolic (if Covertly) about Race, and too many Inevitably become Racists!

Preach. Brother PREACH!

"They seek Power in Your "god's" name." Manipulation of the masses to Segregate us in increasingly fractured Tribal Minorities, no matter the Cost to Society and Individuals.

Emphasis on Group rights almost always Diminishes Individual Rights!

(To be clear, the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960's eliminated skin color-based Discrimination. Group Discrimination based upon innate qualities, such as skin color is evil.

Consequences, such as the loss of gun rights, or voting rights, based upon an Individual committing a Felony, that have placed them in a group, are legitimate. No one is Born a Criminal. Individuals make Choices that have Consequences. Individuals have several routes to seek the restoration of their rights. Such as by paying restitution, or seeking a pardon, or other restoration of their rights by their good works.)

Radagast 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Are you a trained Marxist?

Replies:   John Demille  Grey Wolf
John Demille 🚫

@Radagast

Are you a trained Marxist?

Do you expect an honest answer?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@John Demille

Do you expect an honest answer?

Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition?

ETA: Apologies, I just couldn't help myself.

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Radagast

Where in my post did I reference class, the class struggle, the proletariat, collective ownership of the economy, or organizing society such that everyone works for the common good and is provided for according to their needs?

In short: where could you possibly have seen the slightest connection to 'Marxism' in what i wrote?

For the record, no, I am not a 'trained Marxist'. Marx was a utopian and, like many other utopians, he made a number of incorrect assumptions about human behavior.

I'm a capitalist, but not a dog-eat-dog pure capitalist. I believe that the regulation of markets is a necessary and essential part of functioning capitalism, and that capitalism without checks and balances will fail (just like every other economic system will fail without checks and balances).

Ironically, the discussion here is based on nit-picking the decisions of a very, very capitalist enterprise (Amazon) because they chose to spend their resources in a particular way.

It's astonishing that somehow saying 'Amazon - and movie/television/etc producers/creators in general - have a right to manage their businesses as they want and cast actors how they choose' somehow transmogrifies itself into 'Marxism'.

Or how saying that 'the best black actor' can also be 'the best actor, period' is 'Marxist', or that any of the other points I made were 'Marxist'.

Again: where is there the slightest, tiniest hint of Marxism in what I wrote?

Replies:   DBActive  Radagast
DBActive 🚫

@Grey Wolf

You're there's nothing Marxist about your rant.
It's simply racialist.
BTW, Marx was no utopian. He viewed himself as both an economist and historian. He saw his writings as descriptive of historical and economic truth. In every respect, he was completely wrong.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@DBActive

I would argue that my rant was anti-racialist - I'm absolutely not at any point making any claim that any race is superior to any other race - but vive le differance.

I didn't say that Marx viewed himself as a utopian. He didn't. He was, however, still a utopian. Most utopians do not view themselves as utopians. That doesn't mean that they're not still utopians.

To clarify: utopian

adjective: modeled on or aiming for a state in which everything is perfect; idealistic.

noun: an idealistic reformer.

Marx was unquestionably idealistic, urged and encouraged 'reform', and his aim was a state in which everything was perfect, or as close to perfect as possible.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Marx was unquestionably idealistic, urged and encouraged 'reform', and his aim was a state in which everything was perfect, or as close to perfect as possible.

No, not at all. Marx, believed that he was describing real history and real economic destiny: he was doing neither.
Every single one of his economic principles has been found to be wrong.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@DBActive

I believe we've moved on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Most utopians believe they're describing reality. Marx is not an exception. All utopians thus far have been wrong (if not, the world would surely be a better place). You may disagree with the word 'utopian,' and that's fine. I contend that the shoe fits. It's not worth further argument.

We are fundamentally in agreement that Marx was wrong about pretty much everything.

Honestly, he was pretty much spot on about nineteenth-century capitalists having quite a lot of rapacious jerks amongst their number. He got that one right. It's just that his ideas about what would naturally happen to fix that were wrong, and his ideas about how people could speed up fixing that were also wrong. Lenin took what Marx wrote and screwed it up a great deal more (not that it was right in the first place; it wasn't) and then we were off to the races.

Replies:   DBActive  richardshagrin
DBActive 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Well, we agree on something.
The trouble is that one side of the political class still accepts him as a prophet and it has control over education and the media.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@DBActive

Not in America, they don't. The number of people in the political class (or, at least, those with any power or control) who accept Marx as a prophet is vanishingly small, unless you stretch the definition to absurdity (far, far beyond calling Marx a 'utopian', for instance).

To get any significant number of people who are 'Marxist' or 'Communist', you need to stretch the definition to the point where FDR and Truman, for instance, would be staunch, dyed-in-the-wool Marxists.

I will say, however, that I do have kids who were recently in public American high schools and have attended a public American university. At no point were they taught anything particularly sympathetic towards Marxism, nor have they been in any way Marxist nor communist nor sympathetic to those who are (unless they're hiding it so skillfully that no one can detect it, anyway).

Overall, I probably got a somewhat more favorable view of communists and Marxists in the 1980s in conservative schools, in a conservative state, during the Cold War than they did in the 2010s, because back in the 1980s it was still at least arguable that the Soviet Union might eventually 'win', while now they're taught as an utter failure.

I'm dropping out of it at this point, as we're closing in on 'politics', which is verboten.

richardshagrin 🚫

@Grey Wolf

utopian

You top Ian.

"Ian or Iain is a name of Scottish Gaelic origin, derived from the Hebrew given name יוֹחָנָן‎ (Yohanan, Yôḥānān) and corresponding to the English name John. The spelling Ian is an Anglicization of the Scottish Gaelic forename Iain. It is a popular name in Scotland, where it originated, as well as other English-speaking countries."

Radagast 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Because you argue like one. I've heard it call Pilpul, nit picking argumentation to try and make people believe what you are saying and not their lying eyes. The word and the and activity is often assigned to Jews, but none of my Jewish friends ever bothered. Upper middle class life didn't require it as quietly agreeeing to disagree is part of the social contract in that strata. My (Stalinist) communist aquaintances, the ones who had practised infiltration and gained real access to power, they never did. They didn't care about convincing the prols and happily worked with 'awful conservatives' to manage their investments.
Marxists though. It was all they did. Inverting society to put the dregs (them) on top means inverting right and wrong, normal sexuality, representation of races via the re-write of the mythology & history of their societies.

BTW claiming to be a capitalist doesn't mean you aren't a Marxist or a communist. My uncle was a life long commie and a ruthless multi-millionaire businessman who made his money out of strip mining, back when a million dollars bought more than a loaf of bread in Weimar America.

I suspect you are fully committed to the cause and at that level of commitment the ends always justify the means. I could be wrong, but your defense via obfuscation of known racist policies in the entertainment industry, including racial quotas for jobs and representation on screen, means I don't care what your actual political & economic beliefs are.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Radagast

This will have to be my last response to you, I think.

Somehow, in your view, arguing that giving members of minorities the opportunity to compete for roles which were written for people who are not white, representing either new characters who are not white or characters who were never white, is 'Marxist.' I can't even fathom the connection. It's like saying that someone arguing that heavy metal is better than smooth jazz must be a Baptist. There is zero connection whatsoever from the one to the other.

I explicitly say that I'm a capitalist; you, in essence, accuse me of lying. I strongly dislike communism or Marxism. I think it's insane and contrary to human nature, has never worked, and will never work.

My entire point is to denounce 'known racist policies' (namely, attacking any production which dares to cast a non-white person for any role not explicitly written as a not-white person long enough ago that no one can credibly argue it's part of some new 'trend'). I never once said that we needed 'racial quotas'. I never once argued in favor of 'racist policies' in the entertainment industry (unless, again, your argument is that hiring non-white people must be an example of a 'racist policy').

Literally every single thing you just wrote about me is either an utter non sequitor, a conjecture wildly disconnected from reality or anything I wrote, or a flat-out untruth.

Unless you can credibly give me some rational basis by which it could be 'Marxist' of me to argue that it's not unreasonable for Amazon (a capitalist corporation, very much non-'Marxist') to allow the people they hired to create this show to, in turn, hire non-white actors for non-white roles (either new to the production, or for characters who never had an ethnicity in the first place), or unreasonable for them to write such roles in the first place (they could've just written them as white roles, after all, right?), I'm done with this insanity.

Or are you alleging that Amazon, too, is really just a collection of 'trained Marxists'? Are we back in the 1950s, when there were 'communists' hiding everywhere, and we had to 'root them out'? Do we need a new blacklist, banning all of the 'Marxists' who dare hire people who aren't white, or support the occasional hiring of people who aren't white?

Replies:   John Demille  DBActive
John Demille 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Or are you alleging that Amazon, too, is really just a collection of 'trained Marxists'?

Many, if not most of them. Anybody that has graduated western universities in the last 15 years is a trained marxist even if they don't know it.

Are we back in the 1950s, when there were 'communists' hiding everywhere, and we had to 'root them out'?

The communists are powerful enough now that they don't even try hiding. So it's actually way worse than the 50s.

Do we need a new blacklist, banning all of the 'Marxists' who dare hire people who aren't white, or support the occasional hiring of people who aren't white?

Unfortunately for the west, the communists are so powerful now that they are the ones doing the banning.

And you keep arguing in defence of wokeness. Wokeness is another word for outright racism + sexism.

So yes, I would definitely call you communist (even if you don't admit or agree) as you are behaving like one. Again, so many words you've written in this thread, more than anybody else, and you are defending and arguing for racism.

Communists use anything they can, racism, sexism, ablism (what a stupid concept) to divide and conquer. You're doing it.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@John Demille

Anybody that has graduated western universities in the last 15 years is a trained marxist even if they don't know it.

So quite a few of the officials of the Trump administration, including a number of judges he appointed, are trained Marxists? Jared Kushner (graduated from a western university in 2007) is apparently a 'trained Marxist'. Lauren Boebert? Trained Marxist. Madison Cawthorn? Also a trained Marxist. So are Tulsi Gabbard and Matt Gaetz. Interesting.

Insane, but interesting.

The communists are powerful enough now that they don't even try hiding. So it's actually way worse than the 50s.

Of course, virtually none of them are advocating for or doing anything to promote communism. Therefore ... sure! Jeff Bezos? Communist! Elon Musk? Communist! Not that they graduated in the last 15 years, mind you, but ... why not? They look even more communist than any of the people I already noted as 'trained Marxists', and much more communist than the Millenials that I know.

And you keep arguing in defence of wokeness. Wokeness is another word for outright racism + sexism.

I believe you were the first person to bring 'wokeness' into this, so ... no, I do not. But, sure. You keep arguing against wokeness, and anti-wokeness is another word for outright Fascism. Makes as much sense as your comment (none).

Of course, you're trying to have it backwards and claim that wokeness actually supports racism and sexism. Why not? Meanwhile, communism advocates for individuals to control wealth, hire labor, and chart their own course. That would make this whole discussion SO much more clear. I just assume that any word you use actually means the opposite of what everyone else thinks it means. Words mean what you mean them to mean, nothing more and nothing less.

So, yes, I would definitely call you fascist (even if you don't admit or agree) as you are behaving like one.

Fascists use anything they can, racism, sexism, communism (what a stupid concept) to divide and conquer. You're doing it.

Yes, that was tongue-in-cheek, but I'm absolutely dazzled by the sheer chutzpah of claiming that somehow opposing racism and sexism is also championing it, that talking about something that has nothing to do with Marxism makes one Marxist, that supporting a capitalist corporation's right to make business decisions also makes one a Marxist, and that in supporting private enterprise and denouncing Marxism and communism I'm 'behaving like [a communist]'. Oh, and since I'm now a communist (because I support private enterprise!), therefore I'm 'dividing and conquering.

No need to reply. You're extremely unlikely to change your mind, and - given that you've already made supporting private enterprise a sure sign of a Marxist, not to mention tarring the Republican far right as trained Marxists - I can't imagine any level of rationality in a reply. You see Marxists absolutely everywhere and will continue to do so, and 'Marxist' means exactly what you mean it to mean, nothing more and nothing less (and certainly absolutely nothing to do with anything Karl Marx ever wrote or said - and, for the record, he was completely wrong about his predictions and prescriptions for the world).

Replies:   John Demille
John Demille 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Again, drowning the discussion in minutia. So many words. All saying the same thing; pushing the same agenda: divide and conquer.

you're trying to have it backwards and claim that wokeness actually supports racism and sexism.

Don't twist my words. I said wokeness IS racism + sexism.

And yes, you're still a communist. You're normalizing anti-white racism and anti-male sexism.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@John Demille

And I said that wokeness is anti-racism and sexism, which is how sane people define it.

Nothing that I have said at any point is supportive of anti-white racism or anti-male sexism.

I am not a communist.

But, again, your comments make perfect sense if you simply assume that your words mean the opposite of what sane people mean them to mean:

Again, you're cutting through the minutia. So many words. All saying the same thing; pushing the same agenda: let's all get along.

Wokeness IS opposed to racism + sexism.

And yes, you're still a capitalist. You're repudiating anti-white racism and anti-male sexism.

See, it works! Reality is restored!

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Grey Wolf

And I said that wokeness is anti-racism and sexism, which is how sane people define it.

Argumentum ad Populum.
Everyone else must be insane if they don't agree with this argument.
You can insert that argument and bounce on it a few days.
Wokeness is just another way to keep victims in line. It uses circular logic to keep victims as victims, requiring 'help' from the woke.
Woke dies when their victims stand up and say "Fuck you, I don't need your help, I am not a victim."

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Remus2

I disagree, both that 'woke' is even meaningful (it does mean about fifty different things to fifty different people), and also that it's another way to keep victims in line.

It's no less accurate to say that anti-wokeness is just another way to keep victims in line. It uses circular logic to define victims of discrimination as, instead, victims of wokeness, requiring 'help' from the anti-woke.

But that's pretty much untrue, too.

'Woke' is a word that means any nice thing you want, if you're 'woke', and every possible evil in the world if you're 'anti-woke'. It's meaningless.

DBActive 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

A question - how to you feel about the controversy over the casting of Gal Gadot as Cleopatra? Or, the casting of Jodie Turner Smith as Anne Boylen? Or even Rachel Zegler (a white actress with a dark complexion) as a character whose very name is a reference to her appearance?
Are all these racist objections?

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫
Updated:

@DBActive

I have no particular opinion about it, nor do I have a strong opinion about (for instance) the casting of Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell.

The point remains the point: the decision of who the 'best' choice is for a role is a personal one made by whoever gets to make that call. They may be wrong - the backlash agaisnt 'Ghost in the Shell' was harsh (not only because of Scarlett Johansson, but she was certainly a factor), but it's their choice.

I certainly don't think either is 'Marxist' or 'non-Marxist' or 'racist' or 'non-racist'. I don't think either comes out of one 'machine' that rules them all.

Perhaps there was a kick-ass Macedonian actress who would've made a spectacular Cleopatra who got left out. If so, that stinks. It doesn't mean that Gal Gadot is 'wrong' or that the producers are 'wrong'.

It's a business decision. Gal Gadot is a well-known box-office draw who has a passion for playing the role. It could still utterly fail, but that's the risk one takes.

(Very quick edit: some of the examples weren't there when I first replied. Same comment as before: it's a business decision, not 'racist', and those actresses may do a terrible job or an amazing job, depending partly on how well the rest of the people involved with the production do their jobs).

Replies:   Remus2  DBActive
Remus2 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Gal Gadot was likely chosen for her appearance. It they were after historical accuracy, Cleopatra would be an ugly women by modern standards.
I base that on an exhibit I viewed in the Louvre of her bust, paintings, etc from the area and era.
Since you've been adamant about the subject, why are you OK with Gadot being cast verses a ugly women/actress more true to form and history?

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Remus2

Because it's the decision of those making the movie, exactly the same way casting of 'The Rings of Power' is the decision of those making the show. I'm not at all arguing that casting needs to be true to form or history. For instance, I've stated more than once that the casting of 'Hamilton' is brilliant, and it's the antithesis of 'true to form and history.'

The point remains the same. It's ridiculous to insist that every historical character needs to be cast by someone who looks as close to the historical person as possible, much less requiring non-historical characters to remain in thrall to the works from which they derive.

The degree to which people are twisting themselves into pretzels to claim that one can only properly cast white people into any role that might ever have been white, or that someone might think might have been white, or where some tangential argument exists by which the original author might be claimed to have thought the character was white, is ridiculous. Casting non-white actors as characters who are not white is not wrong. Casting a non-historically-appropriate actor as a historical character is not wrong either. For that matter, casting a white actor as a historically/traditionally/commonly-viewed-as non-white person may not be wrong, either.

It may, or may not, be a bad business decision. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Very, very few of the people who've portrayed Jesus of Nazareth look anything like how he probably looked. Mel Gibson doesn't look a whole lot like William Wallace. The cast of 'The Sound of Music' are arguably not that close to the historical von Trapps, either in looks or ancestry.

A fairly significant number of Star Wars fans went into a review-bombing frenzy because a few non-white characters were added. That might (or might not) make it a business mistake; it doesn't make it 'wrong'.

Let artists make art (and commerical artists make commercial art). Like it or don't like it. Judge the performances on their own merit. A bad movie is a bad movie even if the casting is amazing (there are far too many examples of this). A great movie is a great movie, even if the cast is 'too white', or 'too diverse', or whatever.

Don't go into a tizzy because someone's not white enough, or historical enough, or whatever. Or do, but don't pretend that it's somehow for the good of non-white actors that they'll be offered fewer opportunities if every movie that dares cast non-white actors in roles someone thinks are 'whites only' gets review-bombed and attacked.

Or, what the heck, go ahead and pretend that. Free country, first amendment.

What I've been adamant about are things like 'the best actor is the best actor, regardless of what race they are' and 'the best black actor can be the best actor, too' and 'roles that have no historical ethnicity or are new can be written for/filled by any group with equal "validity"' and so forth.

Ethnicity absolutely can matter when casting. 'Hamilton' is very color-aware. It's saying something about race, ethnicity, our perceptions of them, and so forth.

On the other hand, it can also matter very little. In the world of 'The Rings of Power', or 'Star Wars', there's reasonable evidence that no one living in those worlds cares what color someone's skin is. When viewers care, it says far more about them than it says about the people who produced the movie.

I have yet to see a coherent argument why it's wrong to cast non-white people as characters who are not definitionally white in 'The Rings of Power' or 'Star Wars' or many other works. Sometimes someone rants about 'woke wokeness something woke,' but that's just a buzzword meaning 'I don't like it when someone who doesn't look like/sound like/think like I want them to does something.' Sometimes someone claims that people might think the non-white actor got their job 'easier', and therefore is 'lesser', which sounds like a recipe for making sure that non-white actors don't get jobs so that no one can think they got 'special treatment'.

I'm getting tired of the whole thing. I'm getting tired of people claiming I'm a 'Marxist' because I support capitalist businesses making their own decisions. I'm getting tired of people claiming I'm a racist because I think it's fine that non-white actors get acting jobs, or that I'm racist because I believe that the black actor can be the best actor, not just the best black actor, or that existing works can be adapted and expanded to allow more than just the 'traditional' casting to be 'acceptable', or whatever it is about 'acting jobs open to more types of people' that's somehow 'racist'.

I'm probably going to pare down my replies because, as much as I like arguing (and I love to argue), I've probably made just about all of the points I'm likely to make, and probably repeated myself way too much.

I let myself get sucked into this because someone said 'if you see a white actor, they're the best actor; if you see a black actor, they're the best black actor', which I found (and still found) to be utterly ridiculous. It may be a truly awful phrasing, but ... it's a truly awful phrasing.

Still, getting sucked into it was almost certainly a mistake.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Grey Wolf

there's reasonable evidence that no one living in those worlds cares what color someone's skin is.

There is reasonable evidence that Tolkien intended the Elf characters to be white. Tolkien specifically mentioned them as Ljósálfar/light elves; Contrast that with Dökkálfar/dark elves. Both specifically called out in
chapter 17 of the book Gylfaginning from Prose Edda.
Tolkien did not call out Dökkálfar, he called out Ljósálfar and their home Álfheimr.

As for Star Wars, I don't really care, nor do most people with one exception. If it was a soldier from the clone wars, they all needed to be the same. All black or all white. They wouldn't be a clone otherwise. Past that, I don't care.

DBActive 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Cleopatra being played by a contemporary Macedonian would be incorrect- Slavs weren't in the area until hundreds of years after Alexander.
The controversy is that she is not black.

Replies:   Grey Wolf  helmut_meukel
Grey Wolf 🚫

@DBActive

Cleopatra is widely believed to have been of largely Greek ancestry, with some Persian mixed in. While there are arguments that she was black, there's precious little support for that. Contemporaneous accounts and busts of her do not indicate anything of the sort, and some of the 'scholarship' used to claim that she was black is extremely suspect.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@DBActive

Cleopatra being played by a contemporary Macedonian would be incorrect- Slavs weren't in the area until hundreds of years after Alexander.

You imply a contemporary Macedonian would be of Slavic origin.
According to Wikipedia [Macedonia (region)] they are only the second largest group (1.3 million), while Greek Macedonians are the largest (2.5 million).

Because Cleopatra was of Ptolemaic descent, any claim of black skin color is stupid.
Egypt had dark colored pharaohs in early Upper Egypt (Nubia) but there are very few hard facts about later pharaohs.

HM.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@helmut_meukel

People who call themselves Macedonian are Slavs. The Greekss call themselves Greeks. If you are casting a Macedonian you will get a Slav, not a Greek.
I know that Cleopatra was not black, but Gadot was attacked by those who promote that fantasy.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@DBActive

People who call themselves Macedonian are Slavs. The Greekss call themselves Greeks.

Where did you get this? From the Wikipedia article I linked to:

The current demographics of Macedonia include:

Macedonian Greeks self-identify culturally and regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%).

HM.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Where did I get that?
From knowing a lot of Macedonians.
Greeks only began claiming a Macedonian identiy after the independence of, and naming of the Republic of Macedonia - called internationally the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and now, after a settlement with Greece, North Macedonia.

Redsliver 🚫

@Pixy

Jeff Bezos said he wanted his own "Game of Thrones".

He nailed it! As well executed as season 8.

doctor_wing_nut 🚫

@Pixy

I couldn't make it through the first episode.

Social issues aside, I just didn't think it was very good, or interesting.

No loss.

ystokes 🚫

@Pixy

The only reason I won't watch it is because it is on yet another goddamn pay channel.

ystokes 🚫

@Pixy

Is the movie industry racist? Well if you listen to the calls for background actors with cars they always say "No red, white or black cars."

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@ystokes

Movies are a very visual medium. So movies with lots of explosions and chases tend to do significantly better at the box office than those with thoughtful plots.
The actors' jobs are to convince the audience that they are close enough to their characters that the audience associates the two.
Sometimes the race of the character is of crucial importance to the ability to form that association. The best white actor in the world is not going to build a convincing association with Nelson Mandela, Mohammad Ali or Martin Luther King, for example.
Sometimes the character has other vital attributes such as gender, height (although some find Tom Cruise an adequate version of Jack Reacher) etc.

I vaguely remember watching a James Bond movie. James pulled up at a quay in a boat and said to a small group of waiting men something like, "Hello, Felix Leiter." I scanned the group of men on the quay and didn't recognise Felix - I was disorientated when it turned out the previous white actor had been replaced by a black actor. So I'd rate continuity as important too. However, although Ian Fleming wrote James Bond as quintessentially white British, it seems that there's increasing pressure for the producers to pick a black actor for the role sometime soon.

We live in interesting times :-(

AJ

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Sometimes the race of the character is of crucial importance to the ability to form that association. The best white actor in the world is not going to build a convincing association with Nelson Mandela, Mohammad Ali or Martin Luther King, for example.

Agreed. A white MLK would be universally scorned and rightly so.

ETA Val Kilmer in "Thunderheart" stirred a flap in the first nations.

Not so much with me. The only problem I had, was he was depicted white throughout the movie after extensive time in the desert.

Speaking from personal experience, it doesn't work that way, at least not for me. I can pass for white in the winter. But give me a few days in the sun, and I'm brown to red.

Edited for correction

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Remus2

ETA Val Kilmer in "Braveheart" stirred a flap in the first nations.

Um, Braveheart was a movie about the Scottish warrior William Wallace and stared Mel Gibson.

I think perhaps you are thinking of Thunderheart where Val Kilmer plays an FBI agent sent to investigate a murder on an Indian reservation.

Not sure why the "first nations" (a term not used in the US) would be upset about Val Kilmer playing a white FBI agent.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

Thunderheart it was.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Pixy

Too much politics and flaming in this thread.

I'm thinking of locking or even deleting the thread.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Pixy

Thread locked.

Topic Closed. No replies accepted.

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