Forum: Author Hangout

thanks will post to the link

That's the URL behind the "Contact" link in the upper right hand corner of the home page.

I've noticed that no matter where you go, what forum you read, etc., there's always someone who asks, "Can I go just a little bit younger?"

I'd take this a bit differently. He's not suggesting the girls having sex before age 14. To my understanding, as long as the girl's bodies aren't described in detail and they aren't put in sexual situations before they come back after their 14th birthday, he should be fine per the site rules.

However if he's that concerned about it, he should pre clear it with Lazeez. And by using the contact link he can do so privately and share more details about the story without creating any kind of spoiler.

He's not suggesting the girls having sex before age 14. To my understanding, as long as the girl's bodies aren't described in detail and they aren't put in sexual situations before they come back after their 14th birthday, he should be fine per the site rules.

There is also a stipulation as to NO NUDITY. That might be an issue, depending upon how the period from 13 1/2 until 14 is treated.

Sexualized nudity is a violation of the rule, not what the OP proposes.

2) looks like a typical Earth-born-and-raised human under the age of 14 Earth years is a violation of the rules (to preempt 'she was raised on a planet that rotates the sun every 180 days, so she's 20!')

More to avoid things like: ancient vampire turned at the age of 8 or fae creature that is thousands of years old but looks like an 8 year old human.

I'm just going by what Lazeez has said: reference to nudity that isn't sexual doesn't violate the rule.

The OP proposes:

As Tony examined them he spoke into a tape recorder making verbal notes on everything from their height and weight to vaginal condition and sexual development and response

That's pretty far from: "To test her response, Tony slid two fingers into her warm, tight, hairless pussy: pumping his fingers in and out until her tiny body shook with a massive orgasm."

His proposed language is about as clinical as you can get.

It's also not a graphic description of their nude bodies. As I understand it, such a graphic description would violate the rules regardless of context.

Offhand mentioning that they are nude without a description of their bodies does not.

The funny thing about this is that Canadian broadcast standards actually do make a distinction between sexualized and non-sexualized nudity. It is possible, for example, to see films with non-sexualized nudity on broadcast TV (CBC, CTV, etc) after 10pm.

This doesn't affect affect SOL, of course, just mentioning it in passing since the difference between American and Canadian broadcast standards is something that most people don't think about, but there are subtle differences. In some cases non-sexual nudity can appear even at a PG level, but violence is much more likely to put a film up to R in Canada, even when it's PG-13 in the US.

The first broadcast nudity I remember were topless scenes in Jude the Obscure on PBS around 1970.

In 1977, PBS showed I, Claudius with lots of sex and nudity.

In the 70s and 80s local commercial stations in some markets, frequently showed mainstream films with topless scenes.
Even now the FCC indecency rules only apply until 10PM

I wouldn't extrapolate Cincinnati's climate in the 70s and 80s to the rest of the country. It was a strange place: hard to buy Penthouse or Playboy, but the headquarters of Hustler.

the point of the story is that it starts prior to their 14th birthday as that is the birthday they want the wish for. hence my question. I've seen other examples where things happen 'off screen' prior to the date but wanted a concrete answer before before I wrote 50 k words. It wouldn't kill the story to make it their 15th birthday but puts other things out of whack and I'd need to rethink a lot of the story 'rules'. this is not sex it's a medical by a doctor exam off camera. I've seen notes of pregnancies and child birth happening to ten year olds off camera, I'm not aiming for that just a realistic series of events given the situation and it's timing.

I get it, you want them as young as possible. I don't care; it's fiction, but if the site rule was twelve, you'd probably ask if you could do eleven.

If Laz gives you the okay, go for it, but leaving out "thirteen" and only making them "fourteen" wouldn't derail your story.

Anyway, good luck.

but if the site rule was twelve, you'd probably ask if you could do eleven.

No, no a thousand times no. That's not me. The whole core of this story is that the characters in question have gotten to the end of the time permit for something to be done about a late puberty. I actually did a little research on this and most of the dates that came back were 13-14. by the time they were 16 it was all but a lost cause for any sort of positive outcome.

I actually agree with the 14 rule based on mental maturity. the point of this story is that mental maturity does not match physical. the question was really about two points, the off camera at 13 and the lack of sexual maturity after.

But yes I too have seen many posts of but please just a little lower. I know this site is primarily about fantasy but I'd like just a little more grounding in some sort of fact than most I've seen writing here. Is it a pain that under 14s can't have casual nudity, maybe yes but you work with the rules you have.

I saw plenty of under 14 nudity growing up, absolutely none of it led to any kind of sex or sexual encounter

well I shouldn't say none, as there was a case of male on male rape in the locker room at my school those actors were 15 from memory, jeez did that bring the mood of the whole school down.

but as I said I'd like a pinch of salt of reality grounding in my large big mac meal of fantasy

Damn, nothing like a little man-on-man rape to bring down the mood.

I actually agree with the 14 rule based on mental maturity.

This, and current statistics.

A lot of authors seem to base their age of first sexual experiences based on a series of scare stories published back in the 90s that said that kids as young as 12 were having sex. Those stories misrepresented facts and things have changed in the past generation.

The most recent figures I've seen from a reputable source were from 2018, at which point the average age of first intercourse in the US was around 17.5 years -- slight less for boys, slightly higher for girls, but the spread between the two was under 4 months. And not that that's the average, half of kids will be higher than that. And COVID is likely to have skewed those figures higher.

Just because kids feel horny at eleven doesn't mean they're running out to do anything about it. In the same way, a teenager will occasionally lash out at parents & teachers for treating them "like a kid," but that doesn't mean they really want to be on their own.

The teen years are a time for learning and growth, slowly working towards becoming an adult while still protected by family and other support networks. Too many authors seem to want to throw them into the deep end of sex early then completely ignore the psychological and legal ramifications.

The most recent figures I've seen from a reputable source were from 2018, at which point the average age of first intercourse in the US was around 17.5 years -- slight less for boys, slightly higher for girls, but the spread between the two was under 4 months. And not that that's the average, half of kids will be higher than that. And COVID is likely to have skewed those figures higher.

Would you please post a Link to the source you are siting.

I am more than a little suspicious about the communities they used for their research.

In the Black and Latino communities there tends to be significant reluctance to participate in such research. Or to provide less than accurate answers, due to misstrust of how that information might be used against them.

There are too many Black, Latino, and "mixed-race" girls who are pregnant by age 16. Too many Black, Latino, and some mixed-race girls tend to start having intercourse around age 13 or 14. Some as young as 12; frighteningly a small percentage are having sex as young as 8 or 9 those are outliers, but even if only 3% that is Several Hundred Thousand Girls being Fucked! Often by much older teens or "men" (Males) in their twenties, thirties, or even older.

There are a number of factors influncing the young age of girls having sex in the Black and Latino communities, also Tribal peoples (Souixian, Cherokee, Apache, etc.) and some Pacific Islanders. Some is cultural, a lot has to do with Lack of Fathers in too many families (over 75% of inner city Black Families there is No father in the home!) and Mothers, Grandmothers, and Great Grandmothers who were all pregnant between 14 to 17.

Two of the biggest predictors of Poverty are Failing to complete High School, and getting Pregnant before graduating High School.

In the USA more than 33% of people Fail to graduate high school (before Covid-19); it is an appallingly higher percentage in the Inner-City Black community (Middle Class and even rural poor Blacks tend to do better in education, compared to the inner cities). Reservations, and migrant communities also have tragicly low percentages of high school graduates.

Unemployment and too often Criminality result from failing to graduate high school. Those who beat the odds and do get a job too often get stuck in low paying jobs with minimal opportunities for improvement.

Pregnancy is often a barrier to education and a good job. (Abortion is often soul sucking, and multiple abortions often has health consequences in addition to emotional problems.)

In the four communities I mention above too many accept that basically "normal" males will have sex with a girl as young as 12 or 13 as long as she "appears mature" which seems to mean at least B-cup breasts (and maybe some "curves" to her hips/butt).

It seems to be that a small percentage of males have for generations been getting multiple females pregnant, and too many females have children from multiple males. (Not counting multiple abortions!)

Blacks are between 11% to 13% of the population of the USA, but have roughly Half 50% of the Abortions! White women and girls tend to have more abortions than Latinos and Asians.

I suspect the 17.5 years is for "middle-class" (and above) kids. Partially because it is harder to get access to kids that have dropped out of school and who are suspicious of "White people" who would be conducting such research.

I am also concerned that in the last 20 to 30 years there is significant pressure to Not "produce" "Racist Results" that make Blacks and other minorities "look bad" so the "researchers" make sure they get the "proper quota" of "people of color" from among middle and upper classes, thus getting "data" that is "acceptably similar" to White people (If "neccesary" Asians can be merged with "Whites" to achive the required results.).

In the Black and Latino communities there tends to be significant reluctance to participate in such research. Or to provide less than accurate answers, due to misstrust of how that information might be used against them.

Given the supposed results, I would be skeptical that they were getting honest answers from any group.

I suspect the 17.5 years is for "middle-class" (and above) kids. Partially because it is harder to get access to kids that have dropped out of school and who are suspicious of "White people" who would be conducting such research.

I would expect that "poor white trash" would be equally suspicious of anyone they perceive as an authority figure.

The numbers themselves are not racist.

No, they aren't. That doesn't make them accurate.

These numbers are based on survey answers. Lots of people lie on surveys.

Would you please post a Link to the source you are siting.

Unfortunately it was a print source, specifically a textbook on the psychology of human sexuality. I have no ability to link the citation. I might be able to find the title of the text, not sure.

Generally, I agree with the fact that children in some under-privileged areas engage in sex early. In fact there's a term for this: precocious sexual activity. Specifically, children who are raised in environments such as wartime conditions, extreme poverty, or suffering abuse tend to become sexual earlier than peers from mainstream demographics within the same society. One hypothesis is that this may be a survival response: because the child is living in a situation in which their life is at risk, their body prepares them to breed as soon as possible. Children in this circumstance also tend to engage in risky sexual practices including sex while intoxicated, group sexual situations, and failure to take precautions against pregnancy and disease.

None of this should be considered normal. Precocious sexual activity is often seen as a red flag for abuse.

However, unless an author is specifically writing a story about a character in an under-privileged demographic or taking place in such an area, they would be better off basing their characters on the societal average.

I'm not sure that I agree, for two reasons.

One is that, by inferencing on the available data, it appears that 10-15% of the population is having sex before age 14. Yes, that's not provable by the data that I posted before, but combining a couple of data sets and looking at the results suggests that might be an answer.

My guess is that a lot of that is not triggered by abuse, but I could be wrong. It's very hard to say, and the rate at which children are sexually abused is one of those things that is subject to all manner of sample biases.

The other reason is that most characters in stories aren't 'societal average'. Stories tend to be about exceptions, in one way or the other.

Now, if one states that everyone in a given high school is sexually active, that would raise plausibility issues. However, if even a sizeable contingent of friends are all sexually active, and know that each other are, that's not at all the same thing. Peer pressure (or, phrasing it differently, peer affirmation - 'If X&Y do this, it's fine for us to, too') is a factor. So is access; if a bunch of kids all have access to a safe and comfortable environment for sex, their choices will vary a great deal from those who do not.

Most of my stories focus on Veterans (or those currently serving) often effected by PTS (Post Traumatic Stress)/PTSD, "hyper vigilance" and other issues that effect relationships.

Prostitution is another common theme in my stories. Because it is difficult, sometimes "impossible" to maintain or begin normal relationships, some veterans turn to prostitutes (of various forms).

Prostitutes often have PTS/PTSD, and/or other issues.

While I depict what I believe are some well written sex scenes. I also include dealing with various issues, as well as violence and crime.

A very high percentage of women in the "sex industries" Pornography, Stripping, and Prostitution (perhaps less so for Escorts) lacked a father/"father figure" growing up; then engaged in sexual activities quite young.

Significant numbers of gays and lesbians were molested, mostly by males, often "family" (often a stepfather, stepbrother, or mother's "boyfriend") before they were teens. I believe more homosexuals are "Made" Not "born that way"

We have been exposing kids to "unnatural" sexuallity for a couple decades. Pornography, Rap/Hip Hop lyrics and videos, "mainstream" movies and TV, etc.

Exposure to natural sexuallity was common 150 years ago. Mating by farm animals (and such) was a fact of life, and 80% of folks lived in farming communities. Many homes had a single room, and though under blankets, children were at least somewhat aware of mommy and daddy mating, and where babies came from.

Decadence, such as homosexuallity and lesbianism were mostly engaged in by the wealthy. Globally it was often deadly to engage in homosexuallity.

Conversely, females were often married between ages 13 to 16. Typically to males 4 or more years older.

However, unless an author is specifically writing a story about a character in an under-privileged demographic or taking place in such an area, they would be better off basing their characters on the societal average.

Sadly, too many "middle class" kids and teens are being influenced by Hip Hop/Rap lyrics and videos, as well as "mainstream" movies and TV that it is the epitome of "cool" to be a "Playah" "Ho" "Pimp" or "Porn Star"

I am amazed by the number of "ordinary" girls to perform in "amateur" porn, "Girls Gone Wild" or much more commonly cellular phone or other amateur videos "that would Never get on the Internet "

Because a video with sexual content of any person under 18 is illegal in the "Western World" we probably don't have good stats. Hysteria about such videos is a factor too. Then there the videos and pictures that are not shared.

For those who doubt that, Pornography is what made VHS commercially viable. Camcorders were used to film more sexual activities than weddings or family vacations. Pornography is a major factor in the proliferation of PCs (Personal Computers) and the internet.

In the USA more than 33% of people Fail to graduate high school (before Covid-19); it is an appallingly higher percentage in the Inner-City Black community (Middle Class and even rural poor Blacks tend to do better in education, compared to the inner cities). Reservations, and migrant communities also have tragicly low percentages of high school graduates.

Where did you get that 33%? That is nowhere near an accurate number for the general population.

Synopsis: 85% of Americans have a high school diploma or GED (mostly diplomas)

The article you cite puts the ratio of GEDs/diplomas at around 0.14

So if we back the GEDs out of the combined 85% using that ratio, that gives around 74% graduation and 11% GED.

So the difference between what the article you cite claims for an over all graduation rate vs what DBActive claimed (for 33% fail out the graduation rate would be 67%) is only 7%.

It would be fair to say that DBActive's claim was too high, but "way too high" is, in my opinion, going a bit far.

but when most people discuss 'high school graduates', it includes those with GEDs.

Not in my experience, "high school graduate" requires a high school diploma.

I think Grey Wolf's point was that the two are functionally equivalent for most purposes. Yes, there are differences, most notably the fact that most high schools have special requirements in terms of which classes you take and whether you participate in other activities, but GEDs are generally set at the same difficulty and are treated by (most) employers in the same way.

So while the term "high school graduate" means a different thing than "completed a GED," for the purposes of national education statistics what matters is education level.

So while the term "high school graduate" means a different thing than "completed a GED," for the purposes of national education statistics what matters is education level.

When the specific national education statistic you are talking about is high school graduation rates (mostly used as a measure of school performance), the difference between "high school graduate" and "completed a GED" matters a great deal.

ETA:
1. People do not study/train for the GED test through the normal education system. Thus their success or failure in obtaining a GED does not reflect on the quality of our education system either way.
2. It's probably quite rare, but you occasionally see people who were home schooled and or taught by private tutors all the way through K-12, so they never attended high school. Again, their success or failure in obtaining a GED is no reflection on the quality of the education system.
3. By including people who failed to graduate high school and later obtained a GED you are over stating the quality of our education system (see item 1).

Here are numbers from the 2020 report that does not include GEDs

The adjusted cohort graduation rate provides
information about the percentage of U.S. public
high school students who graduate on time (i.e.,
4 years after starting 9th grade for the first time)
with a regular diploma.6 The U.S. average ACGR
for public high school students increased over the first 7 years it was collected, from 79 percent in 2010–11 to 85 percent in 2016–17 (table 4.1).

• In 2016–17, the ACGR ranged from 71 percent
in New Mexico to 91 percent in Iowa. More than
three-quarters of states (40) reported ACGRs that were 80 percent or higher and less than 90 percent (table 4.1).7
• In 2016–17, the ACGRs for American Indian/
Alaska Native (72 percent),8 Black (78 percent),
and Hispanic (80 percent) public high school
students were below the U.S. average of 85 percent.
The ACGRs for White students (89 percent) and
Asian/Pacific Islander students (91 percent)9 were above the U.S. average ACGR (figure 4.2 and

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2020/2020117.pdf

The adjusted cohort graduation

One wonders what adjustments they are making and why.

Your link doesn't work. I get a Secure connection failed error.

It worked for me.

It worked for me.

Still getting the error.

If you just take raw number's it's 82%.

Do a Google search for NCES 2020 dropout compendium report and you'll find it. Or leave off the name of the pdf and you'll get it in the publication list.

The adjustment is:

,

From the beginning of 9th grade

(or the earliest high school grade), students wh,o are

entering that grade for the first time form a cohort that

is "adjusted" by adding any students who subsequently

transfer into the cohort and subtracting any students

who subsequently transfer out, emigrate to another

country, or die

This only includes public schools. About 10% of kids attend private schools with higher graduation rates and are not counted in these numbers.

It's just you - it worked for me, without any issues.

Yes, but even if I trim it back to just
https://nces.ed.gov

I still get the same error. And I have neither the time nor the inclination to try and figure out what the problem is.

It's just you - it worked for me, without any issues.

Yes, but even if I trim it back to just
https://nces.ed.gov
I still get the same error.

Out of curiosity I tried the above link, no problems at all.

HM.

By including people who failed to graduate high school and later obtained a GED you are over stating the quality of our education system (see item 1).

Agreed. That's speaking as one who was home schooled 9th - 12th grade effectively.
Bases on observations of classmates my first year of college, My parents did a far better job than the public system.

By including people who failed to graduate high school and later obtained a GED you are over stating the quality of our education system

Absolutely, Dominions Son.

Also, too many "kids" have to attend alternative schools and are graduating a year or two later, some in their 20s!

I believe that it is better they get educated. However, it is a Failure of "The SYSTEM!"

In the USA the Government-Educators-Union-Complex is focused upon its own benefits, and students are mere Chum for the Grinder.

We should have more "alternative schools/classes" Shop and Voc Tech, "Home Ec" etc. Not just the modern "Prep Schools" (preparation for University) and other alternatives be Damned

So while the term "high school graduate" means a different thing than "completed a GED," for the purposes of national education statistics what matters is education level.

For jobs, and such I agree, a GED is Functionally equivalent to a high school diploma (possibly better, because of consistent standards). However, too many of them are earned by adults in their 20s, 30s, and older!

I absolutely support programs for people in prison to earn their GED (or in other situations).

However, it a National Disgrace that such a high number of students are pushed through the system, like Shit through a Sphincter! So that Educrats can get paid more money for the presence of their warm bodies.

Educrats disdain Voc Tech or practical education, focusing upon a pipeline to Universities for their own agrandizement!

My 33% number comes from multiple sources concerned about "at risk youth" who are unemployable without considerable training and education. While they have their own agenda (and are seeking money 💰 and resources), they are using statistics from various State Departments of Education, in particular California, Washington, Illinois, etc.

There are needs for alternative schools, but I would count a person who earned a GED or diploma at age 22 as one of the 33% who Failed to graduate high school.

There are Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics! The Hell with the K-12 "Participation Trophy considering how many people with a HS diploma are Functionally Illiterate, and Ignorant more so than they should be. I doubt that even half of kids who attend Public Schools in the USA actually know what they are Supposed to have Earned a diploma.

Statistics for how many recent HS graduates must attend a community college to take High School level classes so they can finally take English 101 is criminal negligence!

The problem is that the 33% figure is just plain wrong.

The actual percentage of children entering 9th grade and graduating 4 years later is 85%.

You can find some figures showing higher rates but the way they are calculated is wrong. They take the estimated number of 8th graders in public schools. That figure is problematic in itself since it is developed from population estimates rather than actual enrollment counts. Then they take the actual number of those graduating from public high school the same year.

That stat is wrong because it ignores population growth, pupils who are retained in middle school, pupils who enter private (and in some states charter) high schools.

ETA: I have looked online for the figure you cite. The closest I can get is that there is a 33% drop out rate for college students in the first 3 years of college. I don't think that is surprising.

That figure is problematic in itself since it is developed from population estimates rather than actual enrollment counts. Then they take the actual number of those graduating from public high school the same year.

"They" take several State Departments of Education numbers of Students which are used to determine how much Money the School Districts get from the State and Federal Governments per pupil and compare it to Diplomas awarded.

Scool Districts get money per body in the seat, Not mattering if they Graduate.

So, the Departments of Education have Cash Money 🤑 💸 Incentives 💲 to count noses, and those are verified.

Once their 12th year fogging a mirror... Currently there are no Monetary Incentives to ensure the "student" has Earned a diploma.

In fact, the Governments make Money from alternative schools, and people attending community colleges to learn what they shall have in high school 💰 😎 👌"Cha-Ching, Baby!"

Educrats in the Government-Educators-Union-Complex manipulate statistics all the time. Procuring results calculated to suck up the most Money 💰 😒 🙄 💸 🤑 💲 💵 💰

Want more teachers? Max them Stats. Want more Buildings, Max them Stats!
Criticism about graduation rates, "Work them Numbers, Baby, that's why you took that statistics class at the University!"

No.

Once again you miss the point.

The inflated dropout figures you are defending are from independent groups like teachers' unions and "education advocates "that are looking for higher school funding.

My numbers refer to those who graduated high school on time.

I fully support programs to encourage people in prison to earn a GED. As well as other similar programs at community colleges, Voc Tech, etc.

The Government-Educators-Union-Complex touts numbers to Deceive! Less than 70% of kids FAIL to graduate when they should. Getting a GED later, even in their 40's and 50's is better than nothing. However, it should be an condemnation of our Government-Educators-Union-Complex!

Too many teens who are given a diploma are Functionally Illiterate and ignorant about how to balance a checking account, fill out a job application, etc.

ignorant about how to balance a checking account, fill out a job application, etc.

Since schools don't even try to teach students how to do any of these, ignorance is like ignoring ants. However, don't ignore your aunts. And don't be anti-social.

None of this has the least to do with SoL's age-14 rule, which has nothing to do with when individuals have sex and everything to do with risk management for the site and Lazeez. But it's a pretty interesting topic nonetheless.

Oh, I completely agree. The rule is the rule regardless. My point was simply that I'm getting frustrated with how many stories seem focused on kids having sex on their 14th birthday or just after, rather than having any sort of normal distribution.

Oh, I completely agree. The rule is the rule regardless. My point was simply that I'm getting frustrated with how many stories seem focused on kids having sex on their 14th birthday or just after, rather than having any sort of normal distribution.

There are few or no stories on SOL, or elsewhere about a person working at an Amazon warehouse, or working in a restaurant, a clerk in a government office, or racking up 80 Billable hours 2 years after graduating law school; then having a few beers on Friday night, and maybe softball on Saturday.

No sex, no adventure, just mundane existence.

Who would want to read a story about "ordinary" high school kids, trying to maintain a C average, regulations prevent them from getting a job, not playing sports, or in drama club. Mostly texting their peers at watching TicToc videos...

There are growing numbers who are choosing to remain virgins into their thirties and forties.

"Growing numbers" and "that group is still too small to be statistically significant" are not incompatible.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incel

It's also not clear how many of them are "choosing" to remain virgins.

Incel precludes those 'choosing' to remain virgins.

Incel is short 'Involuntarily Celibate'.

Yes, that was exactly my point.

There is a growing group of 30+ and 40+ virgins, but how many of them (if any) are remaining virgins by choice is very much less than clear.

There is a growing group of 30+ and 40+ virgins, but how many of them (if any) are remaining virgins by choice is very much less than clear.

I believe students in the USA, K-12 and college, are being indoctrinated with "Learned Helplessness"

Boys in particular are punished for normal boyish activities. I saw boys do inappropriate things to girls in the late 70's and early 80's IMHO such misconduct was reasonably dealt with. It seems to me by the 1990's the "pendulum has swung way too far"

In the service I didn't have to deal with females in the course of my duties, for the most part. When I did I tried to have multiple witnesses. I did not initiate social activities with women in the service.

My civilian friends have it much worse. It can be very risky to date a coworker.

Some wealthy and well connected men may be able to get away with outrageous behavior. Ordinary guys not so much. Skin color, in particular Blacks may get away with quite a bit; especially if they are "under represented" at their job.

Guys can get thrown out of a gym for being accused of "looking" at a woman.

I think people use dating apps because many of the traditional places to meet a person of the opposite sex are now problematic.

Churches and religious groups are one of the few places it is "safe" to meet a woman. (4H is a "secret" to most teen boys; often 10 girls for every boy.)

Males have limited opportunities to "learn" to interact with girls. Even in college policies and Mandatory Indoctrination tends to intimate many males.

Obviously, some guys are able to successfully interact with girls and women.

I knew a guy in college who would just ask females, "Do you want to Fuck?"

He was physically fit, and a bit above average looks, but no "Adonis" yet he was successful about 1 in 10, or 20. He usually made eye contact, but he wasn't overly selective. I doubt that technique would work today.

There are professional women who want to progress their career and have a healthy social life but don't want the bother of becoming entangled with men when a BOB is better anyway.

And for every one of those women, there is a man who is reduced to being an incel.

At absolute best, only half of the 30+ virgins are virgins by choice.

And can't men grow beards, put on dresses and stay celibate to honour their version of flying spaghetti monster?

Well sure, but:

Do they do so in any significant numbers. An article in a women's magazine about women choosing celibacy for the sake of career is not evidence for men choosing celibacy.

Reportedly the Catholic church is having trouble recruiting new priests because of their celibacy rules, and even they technically don't require priests to be virgins.

There is a problem recruiting priests, but celibacy is not the cause. The liberal Protestant denominations have the same problem recruiting clergy without such a rule.

There is a problem recruiting priests, but celibacy is not the cause.

Could be the reluctant reluctance to protect pedophiles within the church.

Aren't there slightly more women than men?

Very slightly. IIRC it's something on the order of 104/100 not enough more to make a difference for this discussion.

While I agree with your point, the belief that oral sex isn't sex goes back far before that guy was on the national political map. Anything aside from penetration wasn't 'sex' for a lot of people decades before that. There's a long-standing stereotype about girls who refused intercourse but would do most other things because they wanted to be (and would consider themselves to be) virgins when they married.

In other words, it's easy to blame that statement, but it's also just as likely (perhaps more likely) that he was just repeating the attitudes he'd grown up with. It's not that hard to find instances in movies where the guy pressures the girl to have sex, she refuses but offers a blowjob, and he grudgingly agrees, where the subtext is that they didn't have sex.

On that subject, and both funny and sad, this quote from the Inverse piece that I posted before struck me:

71 percent of people surveyed called oral sex "sex," and only 81 percent of people thought anal sex was "sex," which means 19 percent of the survey respondents think all gay men are virgins.

Trying to define what 'sex' and 'virginity' means is problematic for people who aren't heterosexual, but even for heterosexuals, those two statements by themseves make it so it's really hard to get anything resembling an accurate measure of when even heterosexual people cease to be virgins.

those two statements by themseves make it so it's really hard to get anything resembling an accurate measure of when even heterosexual people cease to be virgins.

Well, there's a way to define it a bit more objectively for females, but that would mean a fair number of girls lost their virginity to a sports injury. :)

Thanks Grey Wolf. Those are some useful links.

It is Not the age of the character in the story. It is the age of the character when they are depicted engaging in sexual activity (or "detailed" nudity).

There is nothing wrong with a story depicting, say a "tween" (~11 or 12) who has a crush on a highschool Freshman say age 14. The precocious girl might even say, "I am going to marry him someday!" or something similar.

Then Ten Years Later the MC has just been promoted and encounters a "Stunning Redhead" who just happens to be that precocious tween girl from a previous chapter.

There are stories on SOL that characters who weren't born at the beginning of the story become full adults during the course of the story.

From the OP: he wants to Show, not Tell a medical issue that afflicts the young girls, that significantly impacts his story at the time they engage in sexual activities a year later (when they are 14).

sisters who at the start are 13 1/2 and have not yet had a recognizable start to puberty (they are malnourished and under extreme stress and exigent circumstances.) They are taken to see a doctor who examines them (off camera)

There are plenty of stories where a Male MC, before he is 14, is fat, or skinny, or has some other affliction, that he must deal with, and typically their determination to improve themselves has an impact upon the story.

It is Not the age of the character in the story. It is the age of the character when they are depicted engaging in sexual activity (or "detailed" nudity).

When a person has to ask: Can I write about someone under the age limit, then it's more about sex (or what can be construed as sexual) than harmless biology.

If the author writes that they are malnourished and underdeveloped for their age (without going into detail, using just those words) I wouldn't even ask if it was "okay."

But, if they go into to detail about breast size, waist size, the fact they look younger than 14 or could be mistaken for a 10yr old, then that's going too far because now, when they are engaged in sexual activity, people are comparing them to a specific age.

Now, I don't know how the author wants to word things, but it could be sketchy, and on every site I've been on, there is always someone who wants to be sketchy.

Not my site though, so Laz may not see it that way.

If the author writes that they are malnourished and underdeveloped for their age (without going into detail, using just those words) I wouldn't even ask if it was "okay."

1. You wouldn't ask. That doesn't mean other authors wouldn't feel compelled to ask.

2. delayed puberty isn't necessarily a malnutrition issue.

1. You wouldn't ask. That doesn't mean other authors wouldn't feel compelled to ask.

2. delayed puberty isn't necessarily a malnutrition issue.

1. I forget that people in forums often interpret sentences as literal as possible.

Replace my "I" with "no one would need to ask."

2. Whatever the cause of delayed puberty, it's all about description and wording.

Below was the OP's reasoning.

(they are malnourished and under extreme stress and exigent circumstances.)

Replace my "I" with "no one would need to ask."

It's still an unjustified assumption. That you believe that no one would need to ask does not make it so.

7. Age restrictions: Your work (stories, poems or blog entries) may not contain characters younger than 14 having sex or being in sexual situations (masturbation and nudism are not allowed). In other words, all characters that engage in any sexual activity must be 14 or older. (Stories posted before September 2011 are not subject to this rule, including new chapters to stories that were in-progress when this rule came into effect.)

I've read the rules. It's not an assumption.

I've read the rules. It's not an assumption.

The assumption has nothing to do with the text of the rule itself.

It is that you know what is in other people's heads, that they understand the rule and how it applies to a specific situation the same way you do.

The assumption has nothing to do with the text of the rule itself.

It is that you know what is in other people's heads, that they understand the rule and how it applies to a specific situation the same way you do.

You're conflating the need, which is what I'm talking about, with their need, which is what you are talking about.

Your conflating the need, which is what I'm talking about, with their need, which is what you are talking about.

No, he is talking about you applying your specific thinking patterns to everyone. What you sort of did, seemingly assuming "everyone" would have the assumed line between sexual and non-sexual in exactly the same place, with is demonstrably absurd.

And he just likes to argue.

What you sort of did, seemingly assuming "everyone" would have the assumed line between sexual and non-sexual in exactly the same place, with is demonstrably absurd.

That wasn't what I was talking about at all. That's the way he took it and the point he chose to argue, which had nothing to do with what I was saying.

Example: When I played baseball, we had a pitcher who always asked the coach: "Can I go warm up."

Our coach had already told him, "You don't need ask. Just do it."

There was the rule set by the coach vs the player's need to constantly ask for permission.

Rule 7 makes it clear there is no need to ask, and that's what I was referencing.

What a person feels they need to ask has nothing to do with if they actually need to ask.

See, the rule depends on definition of sexuality. That's why a specific (and outrageous to many) clarification about nudism is necessary. It indicates a particular brand of such definition, one that treat nudity as unconditionally sexual (with is demonstrably absurd). In that light already, but also with knowledge how wildly such definitions may vary, clarification questions anywhere in vicinity of the fuzzy areas are unavoidable.

If it makes him feel better to ask, then I can't tell him he's wrong to ask.

If it makes him feel better to ask, then I can't tell him he's wrong to ask.

Except that's kind of exactly what you did.

LupusDei

And he just likes to argue.

Dominions Son

Hey! I resemble that remark. :)

Dominions Son

Except that's kind of exactly what you did.

I'm kind of done now.

(No, I am done now. I've got sex to write.)

If it makes him feel better to ask, then I can't tell him he's wrong to ask.

It wasn't that hard, was it?

You still seem to remain convinced your interpretation of what is right is the only possible and that you would instinctively know what the rules are exactly, but if that is the case, you simply haven't thought about it hard enough.

The rule is clear, that hasn't changed, and neither has The need vs His need. I can't tell him how to feel, but I can tell him he doesn't need to ask because he doesn't. (Now, telling him he's not wrong to asked based on his feelings vs he doesn't need to ask because the rule is clear are two different things.)

His need to ask (to make himself feel safer) may supersede not having to ask, but Rule #7 isn't ambiguous as written on SOL, and I stated that clearly. If he goes into detail of a 13yo body, he is wrong.

Either you guys wanted to be confused, or you wanted to argue, but their/your interpretation of what I said was wrong.

The rule is clear

Nothing involving human language is completely devoid of ambiguity.

but I can tell him he doesn't need to ask because he doesn't.

You have no idea, you don't know that story in full. And still think you're the only one who knows right from wrong. You don't.

Not related to the OP, but to advance the discussion... it's a rather theoretical example (even if based on a "true story"), and I'm a total pervert, so please bear with me:

It's a Sunday afternoon during a national holiday. An extended family and friends are celebrating a birthday in a country house. Just before the cake, a girl, let's name her Alice, discovers she has a tick biting on her. Ticks in the area carry a number of nasty diseases; the infection chance of several is proportional to the time the tick hangs on, so it is paramount to take it off as soon as possible and do it with the proper care.

However, the closest medical service facility possibly available at the time is over fifty miles away. Alice can't drive, someone else would have to go with her. It would be a major disruption for the party, several hours round trip even not counting possible wait time at the facility, and that's if the service is at all available there. Even if so, there's little trust in the holiday crew they might find there, and Alice is especially disturbed about that for where the tick is on her.

There is a person onsite who can take the tick off immediately. John is a good boy scout and outdoorsman with steady hands renowned for precision in micro motions and has done just that on several occasions, from himself and others. He may say he's not at all that experienced in that, but agree it could be no problem without much pressure... before learning the exact details. But Alice knows and trusts him, and may have asked him to do it herself, and what's all the fuss really about? It's just a tick.

So it's a bit of an ambush in an upstairs bedroom full of women, to discover the damn arachnid is sucking in on the inside edge of Alice's outer labia lip. John mentally distances himself and sets to work under watchful eyes of Alice's older sister Mandy, their mother, his own mother and even the aunt Hanna, all determined to preserve Alice's honor despite the circumstances.

John has no special tools with him and opt to try to take the tick off using a thread loop. Unfortunately, the thread he's provided with is a bit thick and curls easily so to tie the knot around the snot of the tick, deep into the soft flesh takes many tries.

Now, if it was Alice's own [threshold_age] birthday we are celebrating, and John is older, (say, by two years), there's no limitations at all on what and how we could describe.

Like,

Exactly how Alice partly disrobed to reveal the problem to John, what exactly John saw in high resolution and vivid color, what moral struggles, if any, he had before continuing with the task he had taken on, exactly how he stumbled around in the not at all trivial place with it, what his inner monologue was throughout, even how he inadvertently, or not at all inadvertently, gave Alice an orgasm in the process.

How exactly Alice discovered that tick in that place at that time, her anxiety and struggles about the situation, what exactly she thought about John going after the tick there, how she revealed herself, how his fingers felt, how she tried to hide her orgasm from the moms watching on.

How Alice's sister Mandy saw the whole situation, was she jealous, did she fantasize about John's fingers on and in her own cunt, or just distraught and appalled.

Or was it Hanna who struggled to reconcile what she saw regarding Alice as much too young and yet been turned on herself. Or one of the moms.

What Alice's virgin boyfriend imagined happening in the room after overhearing partial conversation between the women mentioning the place of the tick.

What Alice's dad feared after being dutifully informed about the situation.

Or how Hanna's boyfriend Pedro fantasized where the tick could be and how he would go around taking it off while touching the girl in all the wrong ways.

And who of all of them masturbated when and where and how furiously afterwards, and even continue with full on sex between John and Alice the same night, before or after taking her boyfriend, dad, or Pedro, etc, etc, etc.

We couldn't do much if anything of it very well if we had Compelling Plot Reasons (™) for the exact scene to unfold exactly two weeks before Alice's [threshold_age] birthday.

Yes, I hear the screaming already, oh no, just don't go there, there's a million ways to work around it. Sure. And I won't if I used this scene in a story (I may, someday).

However,

The scene doesn't need to be sexual, at all. It could as well be coldly clinical. There's uncountable variety of other reasons the scene could be in a story besides establishing sexual relationship between Alice and John or whomever, not right away anyways.

It might be there just to reveal someone's character, or even to explicitly establish that John doesn't see Alice as a potential object of sexual desires, or to give Alice a psychological trauma, or advance non-sexual relationships between any characters present in either way, like, perhaps that how the friendship between the respective moms ended.

The whole point might be for Alice to contract Lyme disease, perhaps because John fucked up and squeezed the bug, not realizing, and the early signs went unnoticed because of the peculiar place of the bite, so it wasn't discovered before becoming chronic condition.

Nothing of that really demands the girl to be too young, even most moral struggles about inappropriate ages could easily be framed using strictly internal to the character or external locally legal [threshold_age+X] limit instead.

But for the sake of discussion,

The Compelling Plot Reasons (™) for the exact age would ostensibly be unrelated to this situation, if for no other reason than for most directly related reasons to fall under prohibition anything. But would they all?

Secondary situations could be affected too. If Mandy decided to thank John in a very special way, wouldn't the very fact be implying she's been turned on by the scene rendering it questionable?

Or if the mutual embarrassment experience would eventually bring Alice and John together, possibly years later?

Or if Hanna would dump Pedro based on his reaction to her relating the curious situation, even if in an already sanitized form?

And back in the temporary doctor's office, what if John's indeed a medical student or even practicing MD, would a dry medical language allow more detail?

And anyway, while we probably could do most possible stories with minimal details, what exact details are appropriate for with scenario?

It's not at all clear cut, especially if the details seem innocuous and necessary for the author.

And he just likes to argue.

Hey! I resemble that remark. :)

"You know, I like his arguments better than AJ's, and a lot more than when the grinning Dick throws his pun-ishment around."

I am a Richard (a combination of rich and hard) but I am not a Dick. Other people like puns.

"https://parade.com/1024249/marynliles/funny-puns/#:~:text=101%20Best%20Bad%20Funny%20Puns"

I like funny and amusing puns.

And then there are the ones you post ... :)

My mail today included a Washington state voters pamphlet that said November 8th was the General Election. Does anybody know who is running to be elected General?

If they go into to detail about breast size, waist size, the fact they look younger than 14 or could be mistaken for a 10yr old, then that's going too far because now, when they are engaged in sexual activity, people are comparing them to a specific age.

Now, I don't know how the author wants to word things, but it could be sketchy, and on every site I've been on, there is always someone who wants to be sketchy.

Some of the stories I am writing/posting include Prostitution, including teen prostitution. Most of the women, girls, men, and boys who get involved in Prostitution or making pornography have had some unpleasant experiences in life before that.

Not everyone. It seems that pornography (and to a lesser degree, Prostitution) has been "normalized" in many Western nations. (USA, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, Germany, and some other nations more than others.) From "amateur porn" to Hip Hop and Rap lyrics, pornography is much more "normalized" in the 21st century than it was before the 1990's.

Some of my female characters (14 -18) may appear "waif-like" because that is a Trope, and there is a market for girls like that. Other female characters are "Well Developed" looking like they were 18+ before they were 14 (similar to the "infamous" "Tracey Lords" (her stage name, and one of the few porn starlets to get serious mainstream roles).

My stories tend have aspects of soldiers, Marines, or others who have experienced trauma; encountering women who are dealing with their own issues.

My stories don't always have happy endings (at least not for all characters); few have "happy" endings, more often the story will end with an Improving situation...

I also try to include some hot sex.

Sex can be many things. Too often there is not be as much of a beneficial connection as many wish. Yet, there can be positive aspects of sex, even if less than ideal.

I follow these threads because I am aware of circumstances that in real life influencedsome people to get involved in making pornography, or Prostitution. While my stories are fictional, even fantasy/fantastical, and yet I try to add some realistic aspects to my stories. While still being engaging reading

Whatever is in my stories, I Comply with US Law, and the conditions set by SOL.

I hope that people enjoy my stories, some for the sex. Others for the redemption arcs of some characters. ("Why not Both?")

Some of my female characters (14 -18) may appear "waif-like"

I almost didn't see you there. As far as the rules go, there is nothing wrong with "waif-like."

It's when people start throwing around ages younger than 14 in a sexual manner that things can get dicey.

And on the other side of things, my wife has a cousin that's 4'5", maybe weighs 80 pounds, with AA cups at best - and she's 27 and married.

That describes my wife's sister except she is 45 and married.
Somewhere in the story, the age should be specifically mentioned to stay within the bounds of the rules.

refer to this as the "Bovine Growth Hormone Phenomenon".

I am leary about BGH, however, in the Netherlands, where they have regulations against BGH and GMO crops, etc., they have some of the tallest and early developed kids/teens, many over 6'/188cm.

Good nutrition (despite too many calories, "junk foods" etc.), and the prevention of nearly all childhood diseases; as well as good genetics are probably more responsible than BGH for many girls developing "early" compared to previous generations.

British "commoners" from the Yeoman Longbow men of Agincourt, to the "Beefeaters" at Waterloo, were significantly larger than many Continental soldiers of their era.

Yet, the British soldiers in 1915 were, on average, several inches shorter, 25 pounds lighter, and less muscular than 100 years earlier at Waterloo. Mostly because of diet, and living in cities, rather than rural areas. (Based upon records of the British Royal Army.)

For all of the hysteria about the environment and the economy, we are better off in the 21st century than we were in the 1960's and 70's, and even the 1980's. Certainly better off than folks in the 1930's.

Yet, US soldiers were typically larger than the average British, German, or French soldiers and civilians during World War Two.

150 to 250 years ago, 13 and 14 year-old "Women" were typically married, and pregnant with their first child. Males were considered fit to be "Men" by age 16 to 18. Both took a decade more to "fully" develop.

It is as much the way they dress, and act, that we consider teens to be "children" until they graduate college, or at least spend 5 or 6 years in academia.

I've noticed that no matter where you go, what forum you read, etc., there's always someone who asks, "Can I go just a little bit younger?"

Just make them 14.

Amen to that - or make them 15 or 16. I'm usually as liberal as you can make them but what is this fascination with the sexualisation of children. To me its a sign of relationship inadequacies.

Even when it is relevant to story, and I conceed that sometimes it is, there should be no details written.

The only details I want are how the bastard's dick is put into a bacon slicer and his scrotum cut so his balls fall the to floor where they are allowed to trail around.

I personally would like to write stories that have "18+ only" sex.

But since I write Real Life, and in this world there are plenty of 13 year old mothers, it is hard to do.

Really though, it's not hard to do. I've seen too many true crime shows where the plot is the same: Young girl (18/19/20/etc), new to college, promising life, everybody who knows her loves her, great memories, real connections with with more friends than most people have ever had and it's all cut short by an possessive ex-boyfriend, or deranged sexual predator, or an obsessive friend.

Since it's fiction, she doesn't have to die, but the traumatic effects of her abuse could destroy her as a person until she gets whatever revenge she desires or maybe she'll never be more than a ghost-like projection of the potential she once had which causes someone else to take revenge or have their justice in their own way.

There are a lot of horror stories in the real world, and the age of the players doesn't make it grittier just because one is younger.

There are a lot of horror stories in the real world, and the age of the players doesn't make it grittier just because one is younger.

A lot of truth in that statement. However, there is a shock factor for middle class types when someone their daughters or sons age gets slaughtered by a psychopath.

The media is usually all over what I call the 'Little Heidi' stories.

https://nypost.com/2022/08/16/what-we-know-about-california-teen-kiely-rodnis-disappearance/

That's the most recent one floating around the media.

An older Heidi story:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/natalee-holloways-father-shocked-human-remains-found-aruba/story?id=49414517

In my personal opinion, the media killed her. As soon as her case went public in the media, the kidnappers feed her to the sharks.

In all of them, the victim was young, usually blonde, and easy on the eyes.

If anyone knows of a Hispanic or other race that got as much attention as those two girls did, I'd be interested in reading it.

A lot of truth in that statement. However, there is a shock factor for middle class types when someone their daughters or sons age gets slaughtered by a psychopath.

And for all the fret over stranger danger, the biggest danger to kids, the most likely culprit in any sexual abuse, kidnapping or murder of a child, is a family member or friend of the family.

It's like the panic over Halloween candy being tampered with. The tiny handful of actual documented cases were of an adult targeting one specific child to whom the adult perpetrator was not a stranger.

It's like the panic over Halloween candy being tampered with. The tiny handful of actual documented cases were of an adult targeting one specific child to whom the adult perpetrator was not a stranger

It's coincidental you bring that up. I just read (or re-read, because it sounded familiar) of a father who put cyanide in the Pixi Stix he was giving out with the intent of murdering his son so he could collect the life insurance money he had taken out on his boy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Clark_O%27Bryan

A lot of truth in that statement. However, there is a shock factor for middle class types when someone their daughters or sons age gets slaughtered by a psychopath.

True, but I'm saying Justin Case can write real-life stories with 18+ characters for the rest of his days. No one is forcing him to write stories where underage abusers get their comeuppance.

He has a choice.

but I'm saying Justin Case can write real-life stories with 18+ characters for the rest of his days. No one is forcing him to write stories where underage abusers get their comeuppance.

He has a choice.

Agreed

Can't lie, there are a lot of great revenge stories in the world.

The number of young Mexican girls who get raped and abducted into sex slavery by cartels and the Illegal Alien smuggling trade is mind blowing.
Nobody knows how many due to the lack of information, but the ones recorded are overwhelming.

You do realize that crap starts long before the Mexican border right?
It's a fact of life in Central America along with large parts of South America. Why the focus on Mexicans?

Not totally true.
To say the "rape culture" is a normal part of their culture is just asinine.

Show me where I said anything of the kind?

People can deny the plight of Mexican people trying to come to the US, and the criminal enterprise that exploits them.

They can deny the need for eliminating the cartels/gangs and sealing our borders to stop the human and drug trafficking problem.

No where did I deny that.

Further, the majority of my working career was spent outside US borders. The lions share of that being points further south. I spent four years living and working in Mexico. They have problems, severe problems with such as you described.

However, the majority of people crossing illegally are not Mexican. They are trained by their traffickers to say they are so they don't have to start over in South or Central America if they are caught.

From your post, I'm gathering this is a personal issue for you. I'm not trying to slight that. However the cold hard facts are, Mexican citizens are in the minority of those crossing.

I've personally aided several people in getting here from Venezuela, Brazil, Honduras and other points further south. The Favelas of Rio are every bit as harsh as anything you'll find in Mexico if not worse.

I cannot control what you take personal. I will give you an instance to consider though.

In 1999 I was working a gas pipeline project in the jungles of Ecuador.

The company was required to employ 2 locals for every expat working. The guy they saddled me with seemed alright. However that changed fast when their economy died almost overnight. One day everything is fine, the next there are rebels and rioters in the streets because the Sucre (currency at the time) valuation went to shit.

Raul asked if he could borrow $500 to help get his family by. We got that much in per diem each week, so I made the loan. Two hours after, we got the word the project was being mothballed and all expats were to be sent home as it was no longer safe for us.

By 2000, I was packing in my apartment making ready to leave when I got a knock on the door. It was Raul's 12 year old daughter. The story I got from her was that He'd went on a bender after getting home. He killed his wife, then beat and rapped her. He packed her up and dropped her on my door step as payment for the loan.

After calming her, I made some calls and found a mission 25 miles south of me that would take her in.

It took ten hours getting there. Once inside, I was stopped by a colonel of their police forces and questioned why she was with me. After telling my story and waiting three hours under the drawn weapons of his men he came back. She had backed up my story or I wouldn't be here typing this.

Apparently there had been a rash of such incidents that day.

He packed me up in his jeep to see to it I left the country. On the way he was sure to show me where Raul had been given what you may know as a Mexican neck tie or at least the Ecuadorian version of it.

For those of you who don't know what that is, the victim is gutted with his head chopped off, and stuffed inside the body cavity upside down. Then strung up by his feet. I was informed that if she hadn't backed up my story, it would have been me instead.

So yes, I know what it is to take such events personally. The crime bosses in the Rio Favelas made that action look tame. They were fond of cutting your arms of then burning the stumps. The body would be stuffed in old tires then the tires set on fire. Seen that one a few times working for Petrobras.

It's ugly, but a damn sight uglier when you witness it directly and not be told about it.

You're therefore singing to the choir with this line.

But they will NEVER be able to erase the truth from those who know.

Or silence us from telling others about it.

That line is also not entirely true. There were several people I knew personally given the tire (aka necklacing) treatment. It did in fact silence them.

Edited spelling errors

I've kind of been standing on the side lines for this discussion. Not for any reasons other than I wanted to see where it was going etc.

this is currently the 'explicit' version, but I'm trying to make it more shall we say vague.

As Tony examined them he spoke into a tape recorder making verbal notes on everything from their height and weight to vaginal condition and sexual development and response. Lastly he took a full frontal of each girl with the prior consent of all three siblings. The photo was clinical and did not show anything above the shoulder or below the knee

I have noted the current wording that gives me most pause and it should be understood that the wording in this sample was essentially a train of thought and not written with any consideration of the 14 rule. It will likely actually go through many revisions before I consider it 'safe'. it's just that I know this situation, which is important to the plot. I have avoided as much 'description' as possible but am looking for a way to 'sanitise' it with regards to the rule.

I write in large contiguous blocks and then much later go back read the edit. I've read this section a few times and know it needs fixing but am not sure of the 'how' to go about this.

If anyone interested can make consistent with 14 rule suggestions that still evoke the intimacy and embarrassment the girls are willing to go through for just a small chance that their desire to look like a normal pubescent teen then I am open to suggestions

To get back to the original question:

From the FAQ

What kind of stories can I post?
You can post almost anything. We have one restriction: Characters under 14 years old can't be sexual or sexualized. Characters under 14 can't masturbate, can't be described nude and can't participate in any explicitly described sexual manner.

If you must have those characters, then anything sexual to do with them must be described in a clinical manner. Think how they would do it on public television. So never in any sexualized manner or salacious descriptions.

In that vein, you can't have fictitious characters that are supposedly older and yet somehow behave or look like underage children. That will get you booted off the site.

Given that description of the rule, I can't see how your proposed story violates it.

Set firm boundaries and rules, and people immediately start working on how to get around them.

Why any need for clarification, just specify the age of 14 and move on.

Exactly.

There is no reason to make any character younger than 14 if they are going to be engaged in any scene/activity/discourse where even the smallest particle of inference can be rendered as sexual.

The only reason to make a character younger than 14 on a 14-is-the-limit site is because the author wants to.

Isn't there an argument that 'coming of age' stories should start with the protagonist young and asexual then slowly getting older and becoming sexual?

That argument is made by people pouting in the corner with hyperbole because they can't have their way. No one needs to know that a twelve year old was masturbating to a pair of thirteen-year-old tits because she was his sister's best friend, and the first girl to ever give him a hard-on.

If a writer can't be satisfied with saying, "My first crush was a couple of years ago," and describing it with child-like innocence and wonder, then that writer should start their own website.

A "coming of age" story is about the experience of leaving your childhood behind. On a website where the rule is 14 minimum, start at fourteen and move forward. It's not that life didn't exist before 14, it's that at 14, the opportunities for personal growth (sexual on SOL, at least) came, were embraced, and matured our protagonist into a more worldly character.

The sex can't start before 14 because of Canadian law, not because of realism, but the story can start with the protagonist younger than 14.

From reading Bookapy's rules, I thought the Canadian law cutoff point was 16.

Is that what Laurie Lee said about her book? I'd like to read the quote.

Isn't there an argument that 'coming of age' stories should start with the protagonist young and asexual then slowly getting older and becoming sexual?

I personally thought you were talking about people on erotic forums who get pissy when they can't write under the age limit and argue that: "Sex doesn't exist until a character reaches a certain age."

Link me the article on this argument you speak of. Not just a book that you've read where the protagonist starts off as asexual, but an actual discussion amongst writers, authors, etc. It would probably be a good read.

No, it's made by people who want to write a complete story showing the coming of age transformation rather than telling.

I get the feeling you don't know the difference between show/tell because you can show anything despite not being able to sexualize events in a person life.

I don't understand what your problem is. A coming of age story should show the whole journey.

AJ

If your imagination is limited, that's not my problem.

Great. Never read any books because you can imagine it all.

AJ

We're not talking about reading books.

We're talking about your ability to craft a story where sexualization doesn't begin until the age of 14. If you can't write under that age without sexualizing it, then that's your problem to work around.

If you actually read what I wrote,

I followed our conversation, post to post, each one building off the next, referencing a previous. Did you follow our conversation? (Because if you had, you would have corrected me as to your meaning right away.)

If you want to change the meaning of your posts because you're stuck, that's up to you, but the entire conversation is there.

Nowhere did I suggest graphic underage sex.

You did. A huge part of your argument is that the age limit handicaps a writer's ability to "show" an entire story.

What you said, in regards to being unable to write sex with characters under 14, it becomes a "tell" not "show story.

That's the stance you took.

I said, "If a writer or you can't show underage people (in regards to SOL's rules) having a non-sexual relationship, than that's your problem.

My quote, below, to you, from earlier in our conversation:

We're talking about your ability to craft a story where sexualization doesn't begin until the age of 14. If you can't write under that age without sexualizing it, then that's your problem to work around.

You can't reverse what you said, anymore than you can apply your need to show underage sex so that you can show complete story, to me.

And now, since you're back peddling and gaslighting, I'm going to call this conversation finished.

Found it interesting myself. I once knew a guy that could have whole arguments with himself. If you got him started, at least three different personalities would get involved.

I like a good argument now and then myself. There's a reason I dropped out of this one. This guy is like arguing with a brick wall.

Found it interesting myself.

I pointed out that AJ was now using my own words "against" me. That's the "I'm rubber, you're glue" defense.

He has nothing left to say at that point.

The conversation is therefor over, but I know, for the three or four people who live in this forum, they'll ignore those details and "claim" victory. It's like any other forum.

Since nothing in his proposed story remotely violates the site rules I can't understand why there was this much discussion on the issue.

Is that what Laurie Lee said about her book?

Laurie Lee was a man.

Laurence Edward Alan "Laurie" Lee, MBE was an English poet, novelist and screenwriter, who was brought up in the small village of Slad in Gloucestershire. His most notable work is the autobiographical trilogy Cider with Rosie, As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning, and A Moment of War.

That explains why, when I looked up "Laurie Lee nude," the search returned with many pictures of an older man with glasses.

Thanks!

I personally think that forcing children to wear swimsuits is sexual violence. I also may have a sexual fetish for school uniforms.

Therefore any story that describes a child under 14 as wearing either a swimsuit or a school uniform is sexual and therefore should be prohibited by your definition:

There is no reason to make any character younger than 14 if they are going to be engaged in any scene/activity/discourse where even the smallest particle of inference can be rendered as sexual.

I have two problems with this. If you would have said something like:

There is no reason to try to publish on this site any story with a character younger than 14 if they are going to be engaged in any scene/activity/discourse where even the smallest particle of inference can be rendered as sexual by broadly accepted definition of sexual.

I would actually agree, in principle. We then could go into discussions of fine detail about what the site's definition of sexual is, what the broadly accepted definition is or should be, etc.

The exact threshold age is irrelevant (at least as long it is same smaller than believable legal age of consent within a hypothetical story world. I would have whole another set of problems with it otherwise).

My personal ideal threshold age for fiction would actually be 16, but only if given rather narrow, clearly limited definition of sex that includes penetrative sex, oral sex, and any deliberate touching of another or instruction to touch with intent to trigger sexual response, but certainly exclude nudity for any persons of any age in any context. Almost anything else is negotiable, but the checklist for that is long.

I personally think that forcing children to wear swimsuits is sexual violence.

So you either think children shouldn't be allowed to swim or that they should be allowed to swim naked?

Why, if they do want to swim with clothes on, that's fine too, within reason. But the default for most recreational water activities should be nudity, that should be suggested and encouraged, but never strictly demanded either. There's exceptions, but we don't talk about swimsuits in those anyway.

In principle, there's no reason for swimsuits to even exist at all. In almost all cases and contexts those are in use, people would be better off nude, with no other change.

I personally think that forcing children to wear swimsuits is sexual violence. I also may have a sexual fetish for school uniforms.

Your personal feelings/problems have nothing to do with what is actually considered the sexualization of a person (no matter their age).

By whom? You? Some scholars? This site's rules resulting from owner's interview with legal consultant about how far he can go while the host country's laws it formally breaks would remain unenforced?

To learn what is actually considered sexualization in any given case, the questions are asked.

This site's rules

We are talking about SOL so those are the rules we play by.

If you want to expand the scope of the conversation, start a new thread because your personal feelings, opinions, and fetishes mean nothing in the context of SOL's rules.

Are you the person who sets and enforces those rules? If not, you don't know what the exact interpretation might be in every edge case.

Yet you talk like you had monopoly on truth everyone else should magically know and interpret the exact same way, and claim nothing outside that should even exist or be considered, while also showing remarkable reluctance to discuss what your secret truth actually is. Just so you could remain falsely righteous in your own eyes.

re you the person who sets and enforces those rules? If not, you don't know what the exact interpretation might be in every edge case.

I've already stated the SOL rules are clear.

Yet you talk like you had monopoly on truth everyone else should magically know and interpret the exact same way, and claim nothing outside that should even exist or be considered, while also showing remarkable reluctance to discuss what your secret truth actually is. Just so you could remain falsely righteous in your own eyes.

We are talking about SOL and the websites clearly stated rule #7. That is the conversation, everything else is superfluous. The parameters have been defined.

As far "secret truth" and "righteousness"...what? (As in, what are you talking about?) Why are you trying to pull this conversation as far away from the actual/real topic as possible?

Why are you trying to pull this conversation as far away from the actual/real topic as possible?

In the contrary, it's you who still haven't comprehend what the topic even is.

I've already stated the SOL rules are clear.

I'm sure in your own mind, as narrow it might be, there's clarity of how that rule should be interpreted. So I may have in my own, and definitely whomever enforces that rule have in theirs. Unlike you I'm not delusional those interpretations agree. The identification and discussion of such differences would be what this topic is.

If you want to expand the scope of the conversation, start a new thread because your personal feelings, opinions, and fetishes mean nothing in the context of SOL's rules.

Why should I start yet another thread with exactly the same title?

Because the only way I might have wanted to expand the topic would be with additional examples.

Because the topic is exactly about where and how the personal feelings, opinions, and fetishes and thus different interpretations and/or doubts about what the possible interpretations could be clash or agree with what the stated or observed interpretation of said rule of the site is.

Are you 14 at 12am the day of your 14th birthday

The 'story' comes in around 6 months before the triplets birthday. there may be a swapping of twins and triplets as the trio contain a pair of identical twin girls and a fraternal brother. Why is it 6 months. well the family is quite poor and there needs to be consideration given to the triple birthday. there's actually a lot of kids in the family, 7 kids from memory, they are orphaned early in the opening paragraphs, the 'children' range in age from 13 to 20ish in those opening pages. Everyone gets asked what they want for their birthday before it occurs but there is not a standard lead in time for this conversation.

Right now I'm trying to work out a scene actually on their birthday but it has always been intended to occur in the evening of the day. Say around 8pm or so, maybe a little later. I'm hunting for the wording of a 'reveal' without actual nudity on 'the day'.

The first actual proper nudity comes in weeks if not months after the birthday. (I don't have a calendar for this story yet and I'm busy implementing one for what will be the first story I do hopefully publish. It's proving complicated as I was writing in a series of gushing streams of thought with only a general concept of the flow of time. I was fortunate that things lined up almost to the day with the calendar I picked) I find it really hard to put in dates and then write to them in general and find the idea that getting as much down on paper as possible as quickly as possible then going back and 'massaging' it to fit an existing calendar from wherever I can find one that suits the purpose of the story.

speaking of leap years, 2021 Tokyo was the second time a modern summer Olympics was held on a year that was not a leap year. What was the first? (no cheating with google, though it may not be as helpful as you hope)

I don't spend time trying to architect sex/nudity within seconds of how every you define turning 14 as possible. I try to have it 'after' the birthday, where after is arbitrary and it's description is of minimal importance other than to set the time frame. Which is one of the main reasons I asked about the 13 1/2 start 'date'.

speaking of leap years, 2021 Tokyo was the second time a modern summer Olympics was held on a year that was not a leap year. What was the first? (no cheating with google, though it may not be as helpful as you hope)

Paris 1900 - since 1900 is a year evenly divisible by 100, but not by 400.

Note that Athens 1906 was a Summer games considered to be an official Olympic (Summer) games at the time, but has since had that status removed.

very good

A few authors just keep submitting stuff that it seems should be in violation, if for nothing else, describing characters as clearly being very, very young. It seems that Lazeez either gets tired of policing them or he gets inured to them and they get more and more leeway.

If you are dachshund making noise at the moon, you are a howling wienie.

Al ask ya to knock it off with the state name puns.