Bear with me, I'm channeling PotomacBob...
How would you describe heaven?
Apparently Heaven isn't as peaceful as it is often portrayed.
As evidenced by the USMC who seem to believe its streets need guarding.
Bear with me, I'm channeling PotomacBob...
How would you describe heaven?
Apparently Heaven isn't as peaceful as it is often portrayed.
As evidenced by the USMC who seem to believe its streets need guarding.
If you're channeling Bob, there needs to be a political hook in there somewhere.
You can't have heaven without hell, nor hell without heaven. Positive and negative, good and evil. All constructs of humans. Maybe it does need guarding but I doubt it would be on a street level, much less have streets to begin with. What does a spirit need with streets?
Edited for spelling
If you're channeling Bob, there needs to be a political hook in their somewhere.
Politics is a major cause of threads being removed.
The most accurate description of the Christian heaven is "empty".
Dante wrote a whole book about it. Il Paradiso.
dull as fuck, I hear. :)
I think you're conflating something there.
There is a painting in the main hall of the Doge's Palace in Venice by that name, but no book I could find.
ETA Dante Paradiso is part of his Devine Comedy series, but not really presented as it's own work.
aren't we picky!
The key word, in your own message is 'series.'
Il Paradiso is one book in the series.
I wouldn't, personally. If it exists at all, it's likely beyond human understanding. Even if it exists as a place that looks like a human place (maybe just for humans), it's still likely only vaguely on the edge of human understanding.
The canonical descriptions of heaven and eternity are either about the best humans can do with actual things that are beyond our limitations or the best humans can do with imaginary things that are at the limits of our imagination.
'The Good Place' had a good take on it (and on a lot of things). If we're still pretty much 'us', Heaven will inevitably wear out and become interminable.
On the other hand, if we're not really 'us', if we've transcended humanity's limitations, it may be perfect, and paradise, but by definition it's no longer a paradise built for humans, just former humans.
Now, if I had to describe it for a story, there would probably be a lot of hand-waving around words like 'unimaginable' and 'indescribable' and 'beyond any comparison'. That, or I'd reduce it to a human-scope 'mini-Heaven' and just make it sound like a really nice place suited to the characters.
Apparently Heaven isn't as peaceful as it is often portrayed.
As evidenced by the USMC who seem to believe its streets need guarding.
US Marine Corps? When/how have they intimated that they're the protectors of the streets of heaven?
AJ
Second half of the third verse of the USMC hymn.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.
Thanks.
Somewhat ironic that Marines are supposedly highly trained, but when they get to Heaven they're condemned to scut work ;-)
AJ
Somewhat ironic that Marines are supposedly highly trained, but when they get to Heaven they're condemned to scut work ;-)
Scut work? Isn't it like the ultimate honor guard?
Scut work? Isn't it like the ultimate honor guard?
Man, this is so annoying. I agree with you, you are completely correct.
Scut work?
In the UK, the streets are 'guarded' by PCSOs, often called chocolate cops because they're not trained police officers and they have no powers of arrest. And they're definitely not trusted with guns.
Guard duty is scut work performed by the untrained.
AJ
In the UK, the streets are 'guarded' by PCSOs, often called chocolate cops because they're not trained police officers and they have no powers of arrest. And they're definitely not trusted with guns.
Guard duty is scut work performed by the untrained.
Ask a US Marine how they feel about Embassy Guard duty and you will get a very different response.
It's considered a prestigious posting.
Ask a US Marine how they feel about Embassy Guard duty and you will get a very different response.
It's considered a prestigious posting.
In that case, they're welcome to it. Standing around in uncomfortable clothing brown-nosing VIPs? I would have thought that to highly trained men (used genderlessly) of action, that's Hell rather than Heaven.
AJ
I would have thought that to highly trained men (used genderlessly) of action, that's Hell rather than Heaven.
You think wrong. Going all the way back to the Revolutionary war, guard duty is a big chunk of what the USMC does, and they take pride in doing it well.
They guard US Navel vessels. US Government buildings in the US capitol are mostly guarded by US Marines. They don't assign slackers and malcontents to those guard duty posts.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-to-be-a-Marine-security-guard-at-a-US-Embassy-including-the-day-to-day-responsibilities-and-how-it-differs-from-working-in-the-embassy-as-a-diplomat
Becoming a Marine Security Guard was an honor and highlight in my Marine Corps service. The first thing is becoming an MSG. Typically this type of duty is reserved for Marines showing the highest caliber and leadership within their units. You will be required to have a Top Secret clearance for this duty so any issues with your past may prevent you from this duty (graduating MSG School at Quantico). At MSG school you will take a series of Psychological Tests, attend Classes as to the nature of the duty (yes there are tests) and complete PFT's (Physical Fitness Tests). There is also a lot of high-speed, fun stuff like room clearing, rappelling, range time, fire fighting - you get the picture.
If you want a less US centric view, go ask one of these guys if they consider their job to be scut work.
https://www.householddivision.org.uk/guard-at-windsor-castle-overview
But they're guarding the streets of Heaven. Not a lot of need for high-speed, fun stuff like room clearing, rappelling, range time, fire fighting.
I've never been in the military but the stories I've read (some biographical, some fiction) all seem to portray (extra) guard duty as a punishment for not getting shoes to shine in A flat major or whatever.
I'd be bored out of my skull. I'd much rather go on sorties into Hell to retrieve CIA waterboarders etc.
AJ
I've never been in the military but the stories I've read (some biographical, some fiction) all seem to portray (extra) guard duty as a punishment for not getting shoes to shine in A flat major or whatever.
1. So you don't understand the difference between fiction and reality?
2. The US army might(I'm skeptical that this happens in real life) use guard duty as a punishment, but the USMC takes guard duty seriously.
Dereliction of duty while on guard duty in the USMC is a shortcut to a court martial and dishonorable discharge.
In the USMC, fuckups get assigned to KP (Kitchen patrol, i.e. peeling potatoes) or latrine cleanup, not guard duty.
2. The US army might(I'm skeptical that this happens in real life) use guard duty as a punishment, but the USMC takes guard duty seriously.
Dereliction of duty while on guard duty in the USMC is a shortcut to a court martial and dishonorable discharge.
In the USMC, fuckups get assigned to KP (Kitchen patrol, i.e. peeling potatoes) or latrine cleanup, not guard duty.
Same thing for the Army, and from what I see with the Air Force as well. I suspect AJ is confusing REAL guard duty with the stuff that IS punishment during training - guard that rock in the middle of the parade field, as an example. My squad had to guard a telephone pole one weekend. Of course, later on, when they had us guarding ammo bunkers - we had live ammunition for that training.
The Sentinel Platoon is THE highest guard duty the US Army has. 3rd ID has been around since 1784, and HHC, 4th BN, is where the Sentinel Platoon is attached. Tell me if you think the men (and women) who take those 21 steps each way, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, no matter the weather, think their guard duty at the Tomb of the Unknowns is a punishment.
1. So you don't understand the difference between fiction and reality?
I understand the difference between fiction and non-fiction. Did I forget to mention biographies?
AJ
Did I forget to mention biographies?
No, but some biographies, especially auto-biographies are not paragons of truth.
And if you really had a decent, verifiable claim to having seen that in biographies, there was no reason to mention stories.
And if you really had a decent, verifiable claim to having seen that in biographies, there was no reason to mention stories.
Believe it or not, some authors go to great lengths to make their fictional stories historically accurate.
AJ
Believe it or not, some authors go to great lengths to make their fictional stories historically accurate.
No fictional story can be 100% historically accurate (as then it wouldn't be fiction). And you have no real means of determining which bits are accurate and which aren't.
Oddly enough, the older a piece of fiction is, the greater the authenticity of its portrayal of its times is deemed to be. Write a piece of fiction about the 1990s and critics will line up to poke holes in it. But works by the Bronte sisters, Latin and Greek classics and the Christian Bible get a free pass.
I think there are enough people around with actual experience of guard duties and responsibilities to jump on anyone who gets it horribly wrong in fiction.
AJ
I've never been in the military
Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express?
If not, then the only thing you can base your views on is reading, not reality. Those of us who raised our right hands know the reality.
Scut work? Isn't it like the ultimate honor guard?
Exactly what would require guarding?
AJ's "scut work" isn't descriptive of military personnel guarding most places. However, pulling guard duty with no conceivable threat whatsoever could well be seen as "guard that rock" scut work.
Isn't it more germane to ask WHY heavens streets need guarding?
The ROE would be enlightening.
Exactly what would require guarding?
Nothing in particular.
You clearly don't understand the concept of an honor guard.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-honor-guards-3343834
AJ's "scut work" isn't descriptive of anything that would happen in a real world military outside of boot camp.
StarFleet Carl mentioned The honor guard for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Do you imagine that the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is under some kind of threat it needs to be guarded against?
Do you imagine that the honor guard for the Tomb of the unknown soldier sees what they do as nothing more than "guard that rock"?.
Do you imagine that the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is under some kind of threat it needs to be guarded against?
Don't you?
A guard at the Canadian memorial was shot and killed. Would you expect the tomb to go respected and untouched if left unguarded?
A guard at the Canadian memorial was shot and killed.
I notice you don't mention the memorial being vandalized by whoever shot the guard.
I notice you don't mention the memorial being vandalized by whoever shot the guard.
Nor did I mention the numerous acts of vandalism at other sites. For example, the National World War II Memorial in Washington DC
None of which actually addresses the need to guard heavens streets.
None of which actually addresses the need to guard heavens streets.
Which isn't what an honor guard is for.
Which isn't what an honor guard is for.
So why did you say;
Scut work? Isn't it like the ultimate honor guard?
Nor did I mention the numerous acts of vandalism at other sites. For example, the National World War II Memorial in Washington DC
An honor guard is by definition ceremonial. The guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is keeping a vigil, nothing more.
They would not be equipped with live ammunition. If the military wanted an armed guard on the tomb, they would be carrying modern arms, not WWII era M1 Garands.
They would not be capable of repelling a real threat that was willing to kill the guards to reach the tomb.
If you are correct then following the Canadian attack no thought was given to a similar attack on the tomb.
Obviously you KNOW all about it. Pity you missed the changes made.
And again, still not germane to guarding heavens streets.
And again, still not germane to guarding heavens streets.
And again, non of your objections are germane to an honor guard in heaven or anywhere else.
And again, non of your objections are germane to an honor guard in heaven or anywhere else.
You decided that the USMC guarding heavens streets are an honour guard.
Guarding a specific place might well be an honour guard, but guarding every street in heaven is almost certainly a police action.
You decided that the USMC guarding heavens streets are an honour guard.
Guarding a specific place might well be an honour guard, but guarding every street in heaven is almost certainly a police action.
Neither you nor anyone here has firsthand knowledge of the situation.
Next time you feel an irresistible urge to argue about something, may I suggest you wait until you have been there and can speak authoritatively about the subject.
You decided that the USMC guarding heavens streets are an honour guard.
Don't Rangers and Seals rate ahead of Marines in bragging rights?
Since Heaven only rates the third best of the best of the best, what are the Rangers and Seals guarding in the afterlife? Or perhaps they are the ones making sorties into Hell to rescue CIA waterboarders ;-)
AJ
Don't Rangers and Seals rate ahead of Marines in bragging rights?
Not if you ask a Marine. :)
Don't Rangers and Seals rate ahead of Marines in bragging rights?
Well, one group keeps the caissons rolling, and the other group weighs anchors ...
;)
Don't Rangers and Seals rate ahead of Marines in bragging rights?
Marine Force Recon is also part of JSOC.
Edit: Joint Special Operations Command.
Marine Force Recon is also part of JSOC.
Edit: Joint Special Operations Command.
How to bring all the US defense forces to it's knees: implement a law with a huge penalty that forbids the use of acronyms :)
It wouldn't just be the military. Most of IT, Business/banking and medical care would be in trouble.
It wouldn't just be the military. Most of IT, Business/banking and medical care would be in trouble.
A prohibition on acronyms/initialisms would bring down our entire government.
Think of all the federal agencies whose names are frequently reduced to TLAs.
Congress loves to create laws whose names are attempts, emphasis on attempt, at cute/clever acronyms.
None of which actually addresses the need to guard heavens streets.
If all those who believe they deserve to go to heaven actually end up there, it would be a pretty feisty place. Islam, Catholic and Protestant terrorists for a start. Plus the odd witchfinder and Spanish inquisitor.
AJ
If all those who believe they deserve to go to heaven actually end up there, it would be a pretty feisty place. Islam, Catholic and Protestant terrorists for a start. Plus the odd witchfinder and Spanish inquisitor.
They may believe they deserve to go to Heaven however God is the ultimate judge of who actually does.
I think he was referring to this inquisition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj8n4MfhjUc
Isn't it more germane to ask WHY heavens streets need guarding?
No. There's a reason I referred to it as an honor guard. When you finally understand what an honor guard is and why real soldiers and/or marines wouldn't view it as scut work we can discuss it further.
AJ's "scut work" isn't descriptive of military personnel guarding most places.
Apart from active theatres, the hardest thing about most military guard work is staying awake.
I'm sure the guards themselves find it most fulfilling, apart from the lack of anecdotes they can use to attract members of the opposite sex.
AJ
"guard that rock"
I've read a large number of medical and pseudo-medical articles recently about the risk factors for suffering dementia in later life.
For those of working-age, every day mental stimulation and challenges seems to be key to reducing the risk, especially getting a degree.
(ETA: One article named the professions with the lowest dementia risk: actuaries and accountants)
For those reaching middle-age (the UK definition, the 60s onwards) it's not that easy. The recommendation is to learn a new musical instrument and/or an exotic foreign language eg Japanese or Chinese.
It seems strange to me that the articles claim doing these things reduces one's risk of developing dementia by 15-17%, but that appears to be at each stage of life: there seems to be no premium associated with doing them at all stages of life. That may well be to confounding factors eg those getting a degree will naturally gravitate to mentally stimulating activities for the rest of their lives.
Conversely, not doing these things increases one's risk of dementia by 15-17% (strange those numbers are the same), which admittedly is significantly less than the risk factor of playing rugby-like contact sports or even heading footballs.
So when it comes to the career of rock-guarding, where those involved have to walk up and down all day with no stops to do crosswords or solve sudokus, where is the mental stimulation? Is there a correlation between rock-guarding and an increased risk of dementia in later life? Should those outside Buckingham Palace who wear red uniforms and bearskins get danger money because of the enhanced risk?
AJ
Most religions need both hope and fear in order to control their members, thus heaven and hell.
Granted they mostly use fear of hell to make you follow their made up rules. Keep in mind up until a few hundred years ago most people couldn't even read the bible so they had to trust what they were told. Why do you think the catholic church still use mostly Latin?
Interesting points, both of them.
I'll add that many religions (how to quantify 'many' is an exercise for the reader) find their fear in 'FOMO'. Basically, good things happen if you follow along. If you don't, what you lose are the good things; there are not any particularly bad things that happen. Classical Judiasm follows that model: the faithful/chosen live for eternity with God, the unfaithful/not-chosen are destroyed. Many Eastern religions have the devout and enlightened doing some great thing, while the non-so-devout and unenlightened don't (perhaps getting to do it all over again until they become devout and enlightened).
Literacy itself is a major barrier, but the second part of your comment reminds me of Martin Luther. One of his many complaints was a feeling that the Bible should be made available to the people in the language of the masses, so that everyone could read and understand. This was, of course, a huge problem for the Catholic Church.
Fortunately (overall, in my opinion) Luther was enough of a problem to be noteworthy hundreds of years later, and had enough of a following, plus enough distance, to have not been snuffed out.
While not Catholic, it was my belief that many/most Catholic Churches switched to doing mass in the language of the common people with Vatican II. I could certainly be wrong. And, yes, they still use Latin 'behind the scenes'.
While I do not take to him much lately, I'll default to a Jordan Petersonian approach to this.
Heaven is the direction your life vector goes when you're doing meaningful work and handling your responsibilities. Hell is the direction your life vector goes when you're avoiding responsibility and lacking in gratitude. Follow the hero's journey, heaven. Shirk your opportunities, hell.
Then you throw in a mystical/spiritual secondary story to keep the story from losing its value as it's told and retold in a millenia long evolutionary game of telephone. That secondary story is the memes that find cultural purchase: clouds, white robed angels, singing praises, rewarded for living well, sinners get punished. Those memes are peacock's feathers on the core heaven/hell definition that is the peacock's genes.
I think that makes sense. A bit overly materialist though, which means I'm in the habit of plucking the feathers of the peacock.
Follow the hero's journey, heaven. Shirk your opportunities, hell.
This is not true in Christianity, Only those bathed in the blood of Jesus are allowed in heaven. To many not even Jews are allowed in Heaven even if the bible calls them God's chosen children.
How come nobody pointed out why would "All Powerful" God need the Marines to patrol the streets of heaven?
The mythical and spiritual isn't relevant to my argument. In my definition, Heaven doesn't exist as material place.
Heaven is the state toward which you build a meaningful life.
Hell is the state toward which a meaningless life collapses.
The mythical elements are transmission assisting memes that keep the moral kernel from being overly distorted through time.
Jesus's story is a Hero's journey story. It evolved in the retelling of Horus's and other Messianic figures throughout the region. Eventually, Jesus's story was codified and armored against further change. Not against all changes, obviously, dozens of parables and new passages were added to the bible over the centuries.
Therefore being bathed in the blood of Jesus is a sacred ritual reinforcing the imparted wisdom of following Jesus's example. The exclusion of others, such as Jews, - making his story an us vs them - accelerates transmission the message by hijacking some of our worst tribal impulses.
Revelations 21:16 defines Heaven as a perfect square, 12,000 stadia per side in the ancient Greek version. A stade is 185 metres almost exactly (or 1/10th nautical mile). The KJV and other newer texts change stadia to furlong, which is a bit bigger.
Sticking with the Greek, a square that size covers an area of 26,640,000 square kilometres. To put that in perspective, the entirely of North America in 24,709,000 sq.km.
So we'd better hope that Heaven is pretty peaceful, otherwise it's going to take a LOT more dead marines to make it so.
Revelations 21:16 defines Heaven as a perfect square, 12,000 stadia per side in the ancient Greek version. A stade is 185 metres almost exactly (or 1/10th nautical mile). The KJV and other newer texts change stadia to furlong, which is a bit bigger.
Sticking with the Greek, a square that size covers an area of 26,640,000 square kilometres.
It looks like you need to have words with your calculator.
It looks like you need to have words with your calculator.
I'm confused, in what way do you think this is incorrect?
Edit: Never mind, I see there was a squaring error. Should have been 4,928,400 sq.km for the size of Heaven.
However, I think my point still stands. That is way too big to be effectively patrolled by a few million marines.
Aside from arithmetic your point isn't standing so much as it is slumped against a wall of doubt.
The USMC claims to be guarding the streets of heaven, not every square meter. So your calculations should include the number of marines available for guard duty and their SOP. Static, foot patrol or mobile in winged hummers.
There are currently no unclassified documents detailing the number of marines necessary to guard a street of a given length, but once that as been determined you should be able to calculate the total length of all the streets in heaven.
Of course all of that is moot since heaven is currently empty.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Bluebirds fly
Birds fly over the rainbow
Why then, oh, why can't I?
Over the Rainbow lyrics © Emi Feist Catalog Inc.
Now, let's argue about why this is a stupid song.
Birds cannot fly "over" a rainbow, it's an optical illusion.
You can't either, because your arms aren't aerodynamically designed and only have enough lifting power to get your butt out of a Lazyboy recliner.
(I'm sure Joy will get another week's worth of "enjoyment" out of arguing this point.)
I'm surprised no-one has yet noted
Heaven:
The police are British
The cooks are French
The engineers are German
The administrators are Swiss
The lovers are Italian
Hell:
The police are German
The cooks are British
The engineers are Italian
The administrators are French
The lovers are Swiss
Heaven:
The police are British: Incompetent, woke, rune awy from terrorists, working-from-home-idiots
The cooks are French: The world's most xenophobic cuisine, slow to recognise the culinary delights of other cultures eg Asia
The engineers are German: 'If only every car was as reliable as a Volkswagen'. Except that nowadays, Volkswagen are even below Ford in reliability tables
The administrators are Swiss: Just tell that to the Jews trying to recover assets stolen from their ancestors by the Nazis.
The lovers are Italian: Oh the joys of poor hygiene and sweaty armpits, Casanova's renowned seduction strategy/
Still, the honorary street guards are the third best of the best of America's best ;-)
AJ
The Marines think they have a monopoly on "The Corps" but there are lots of Corps. The Signal Corps, the Medical Corps, a military organization between a Division and an Army. And of course if dead you are a corpse.
How would you describe heaven?
A world without socialist liberal morons trying to control everyone else's actions.
A world without socialist liberal morons trying to control everyone else's actions.
Only if that world weren't full of American Calvinists doing the same thing.