Forum: Author Hangout

The initial dialogue has to be sufficiently engaging and intriguing that the reader wants to know what is happening right away.

Yeah, I can see that working.

I was thinking the same thing. It can work. There are some examples in film noir, for instance, and I believe in detective fiction, where the opening is immediate dialogue, spoken before any context can be established for it.

I'd call it a gimmick, but you can get away with it. Once (per work). If you keep doing it, it gets bad very, very quickly.

n which the opening speaker and protagonist still hadn't been identified by the end of the first, rather long, chapter.

I can see that happening in a 1st-person story if the opening speaker is the 1st-person narrator. The narrator is the protagonist and doesn't ever have to describe themselves.

I can see that happening in a 1st-person story if the opening speaker is the 1st-person narrator. The narrator is the protagonist and doesn't ever have to describe themselves.

You're right, I didn't think of that possibility. I even used it myself, but got reader abuse for not revealing the protagonist's name sooner :-(

AJ

More than a few Western novels (and movies) start that way.

In that case you have the images and voices to help with some basic identification of the characters, unlike in a written book without any such help.

In that case you have the images and voices to help with some basic identification of the characters, unlike in a written book without any such help.

I was thinking that too, as in a Western movie, but he specifically said novel.

While I've seen it in movies I've never seen that opening in a western novel, but I've not read them all. I was kind of focussed on the movie aspects.

I described the scene from the movie. However, the beginning of the first chapter is similar. I used the more familiar movie as my example.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10491478-big-jake

tell me what you think.

I think it's confusing. The elf says, "I already escaped your chains ten minutes ago." And then the first non-dialogue is, "I let the chains I'd been carrying fall to the floor."

I was able to tell that it's written in first-person (I let the chains fall to the floor). But who is the narrator, the elf or the human? Was the human carrying chains that he dropped (assuming it's a he) or did the elf drop the chains he got out of ten minutes ago, making the elf the 1st-person narrator?

The reader doesn't know the setting or who the characters are. DeVirgo is the elf. Who is the first person narrator? Is the Guard Captain the person talking to the elf or is he watching. Who is Marcus? I assume it's the Guard Captain talking to Marcus so is it Marcus who is speaking the opening dialogue.

It's clear in your mind because you can "see" what's going on. But a reader reading this with no reference can easily be confused.

I think it's confusing.

That's interesting, because even though I put a prologue with an explanation of sorts in ATH Book One ahead of where the action starts, I consider the book to start at the dialogue.

Alternate universes exist. I know that, and some of our scientists have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I suppose that the fairy tales you've read in those illustrated novels potentially are true … somewhere. Of course, there are also television shows and movies based upon those alternate universe versions as well. For some reason, no one has made an illustrated novel … I think some universes call them comic books … of me. With the clarification that I'm specifically referring to me, myself, and I, NOT the alternate versions of me that exist in some of those other universes.

"Cal, I'm sorry, there's just no time left."

"But … Dad, Mom … what about both of you?"

"I'm sorry, Son. This was only supposed to be a one man test unit. There's not even enough life support for your mother to go, or I would send her with you."

My mother kissed me on the forehead. "Be strong, Cal. At least you'll survive." With that, she led me to the open capsule. "Take your jumpsuit off and get in."

What I'm hearing you say (or reading what you wrote, since, you know ... :) ) is that you like some set or world building first. You'd like to see something first like - 'It was an age of elves and men, when magic lived, and legends were born.' - if I'm understanding you. Something more like this, then:

The end of the world, or at least the end of civilization as it currently existed, started out quite innocuously. The television set in the waiting room was showing a daytime game show, and the contestant was going to bid on a new car. The only reason Jason Williams stopped on the way back to his desk from the restroom to watch was because the car they were showing on the screen happened to match a car on his showroom floor.

You'd like to see something first like - 'It was an age of elves and men, when magic lived,

Absolutely not. I'm not into omniscient narrators.

I just studied your opening more and came to the conclusion that the Guard Captain was marching the elf, DeVirgo, through the palace. Unbeknownst to the Captain, DeVirgo had gotten the chains off and he was carrying them. He then dropped the chains that were no longer binding him so he's the 1st-person narrator. The Captain sees the chains fall and calls for someone named Marcus.

Even if I got that right, it took a lot of work to figure it out. What I'm saying is that at a scene change, especially at the beginning of the story, you need to orient the reader. Where are they? Maybe when. Who is the POV character?

So you could begin the story with an exposition that does that. You can start with identifying the POV character like, "The Guard Captain shoved me from behind as he marched me through the palace." And then you can go into the dialogue. But I'd have a "the Guard Captain said," after "humanity" and before "Give."

The reader doesn't know the POV character is an elf yet, but that doesn't matter. He'll soon find out. But the reader knows DeVirgo is a prisoner and the POV character and they're in the palace. Or you can even set the scene with a description of the part of the palace they're in so the reader can see them walking through the palace.

Or you can do it many other ways depending on your writing style.

I just found an article called "Starting a Novel With Dialogue: Five Dos and Don'ts." https://www.cornettfiction.com/starting-a-novel-with-dialogue/

#4 of the Don'ts is what I was trying to say:

4. Talking in a void. Where is the conversation taking place? What time of day is it? Who else is around? In other words, what's the scene? If you don't paint the scene before the dialogue begins, you'll make it harder for the reader to get immersed in the story.

If you don't paint the scene before the dialogue begins

That troubled me in Cornett's article. The topic is starting a story with dialogue; Cornett says that can work if you introduce the speaker or set the scene first, in which case the dialogue wouldn't come first.

AJ

if you introduce the speaker or set the scene first, in which case the dialogue wouldn't come first.

I noticed that too. She sort of expanded from the title.

My original point was that you have to give the reader more information than untagged dialogue at the get-go. You can't just have people speaking without the reader knowing who is speaking. This article expands that to more things to do and not do when you want to have dialogue early in the story.

There are some good stories that start with that.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,

That's not dialogue. I don't remember "Tale of Two Cities," but it's probably written in omniscient so it's the omni narrator telling the reader. Not dialogue — which would be two characters in the story talking.