Forum: Editors/Reviewers Hangout

A question of tense

Switch Blayde 🚫

I'm reading a story written in both 1st-person and 3rd-person, but that doesn't matter. The question is about tense. The whole story (both POVs) is written in past tense. The following is from the story:

Sia, aside from a welcoming smooch, was going through her closet. Why? Who the hell knows.

As editors, does anything jump out at you as being wrong? I'll give you a little time to digest it. … Okay, ready?

As I said, the story is written in past tense. However, "Who the hell knows" is present tense. When I catch myself doing that, I change it. In this case I would change it to "Who the hell knew."

Thoughts?

Replies: tendertouch LupusDei Gauthier Dicrostonyx

tendertouch 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Unless it's being said that way as part of a character's thoughts (inner monologue), then I agree with you. It sounds like something a character is saying to themselves, but that's just from this snippet.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@tendertouch

It sounds like something a character is saying to themselves

Because it's 1st-person, to me it's as if the character is saying it to the reader. During editing, I catch myself using common phrases like that. It's like the 1st-person narrator, telling the story in past tense, jumps out of the story to make that expression.

LupusDei 🚫

@Switch Blayde

To my eye, it's either a narrator comment looping the distance, or a character inner monologue in-situ. Both are naturally present tense. Either comment could as well be short for a generalization "who the hell knows why girls ever do that" not necessarily intimately connected to the actual action at all.

Changing it to past tense may be possible, but to me almost more awkward. Unless, it's stressed that there was no decent reason for the actual character's immediate actions... Changes a rather irrelevant flavor comment into what's expected to be of importance inside the story. Like, I would be on edge waiting how she randomly finds the proverbial bomb, instead of chilling observing nonsensical but usual ruffle. Something like that.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@LupusDei

Changing it to past tense may be possible, but to me almost more awkward.

That's why I brought it up. My instinct when writing is to use the present tense version because it's a common expression. But while editing, I change it to past tense to keep the tense consistent (it's not internal thought. It is the narrator, but in present tense it seems he's outside the story.)

Gauthier 🚫

@Switch Blayde

As it stand, it sounds (to me) like a very bad example of addressing the reader.
Not being a native speaker, I'm probably wrong...

"Why? who the hell knows." is creepy or jarring
"Why? who the hell knew." additionally implies he now know.

As I didn't make the query, I expect:
As to the reason why? nobody knew.
Should you ask Why? Who the hell knows.

Better rephrase that. There are plenty of ways to conveying that the narrator is an ill-mannered idiot.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Gauthier

"Why? who the hell knows." is creepy or jarring
"Why? who the hell knew." additionally implies he now know.

"Who knows?" is an idiom. It's often used to express uncertainty, doubt, or the idea that the answer to a question or the outcome of a situation is unknown or unpredictable.

If it was said in dialogue or thought, it would definitely be "knows." But it was part of the narrative from a 1st-person narrator. Since it's part of the narrative, I feel it should conform to the tense of the narrative. In this case past tense. But maybe as an idiom that's not so.

As I said, my instinct when writing something like that is to use the present tense idiom. Then, during editing, I "correct" the tense. But I wonder if that's correct. That's why I asked. But it seems no one knows for sure.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Based on your snippet, I would veer towards the past tense. But I think I'd need more context and idea of the narrator's perspective before deciding. What did the narrator know at the time, since we appear to be receiving their internal thoughts, and what does the narrator know now?

ETA: I would have used 'who knew' as a straight past tense form of 'who knows', but a quick google shows its main nuance is sarcastic or ironic, which is probably not what the author intended to convey. Perhaps avoidance is the best strategy :-(

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

but a quick google shows its main nuance is sarcastic or ironic, which is probably not what the author intended to convey.

I think that's exactly what the author intended. Throughout the story, the father was baffled by his 14-yo daughter's teenage mind.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Throughout the story, the father was baffled by his 14-yo daughter's teenage mind.

I think 'who knew' is normally taken to mean everyone knew eg "So Lance Armstrong was a drugs cheat - who knew!"

AJ

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If I were editing I'd have to read more than a couple of sentences and check CMOS to be sure, but off-hand I'd be okay with this.

The key here is that "Who the hell knows" is being used as an idiom. The entire phrase exists as a unit irrespective of the outside grammar of the sentence (or in this case book). No one ever says "Who the hell knew" as an idiom.

Remember that ultimately the book is talking to the average reader. While "knew" might look correct with the rest of the text in past tense, it would also cause a disconnect for most readers, taking them out of the flow of the story.

I had to memorize several dozen idioms of this kind for a copy editing class, but unfortunately that was about 6 years ago and I have no idea where my class notes are now.

Replies: madnige

madnige 🚫

@Dicrostonyx

No one ever says "Who the hell knew" as an idiom.

Who knew?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@madnige

Who knew?

Wasn't that a rhetorical question? Black Coffee allegedly punctuated it with an exclamation mark.

AJ

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Forum: Editors/Reviewers Hangout

A question of tense

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