Forum: Story Ideas

Cautionary Tales

WellAged 🚫

Lazeez Jiddan sent me here and suggested I post the following, after some emails we had, back and forth, between the two of us.

Look, I have an idea for a 'universe' that might be interesting but quasi works against itself in a way. It would be in a way a warning (cautionary tales) of what we potentially are in the process of becoming.

It comes from Trump (USA), AfD (Germany), and related political movements around the world:
--Where population decline below replacement level (USA, Europe, China, Japan, South Korea, UK) is a threat to nations while climate change is a threat to all;
--Where the political women more liberal while men are more 'reactionary.'

Think of rolling back women's rights in a major way in nation after nation to force population growth, forced urbanization with electrical things replacing everything ICE, and limiting travel to within urban areas to reforest all other areas not used for mechanized farming using electrical equipment run by governments that looks more like corporations with boards of oligarchs.

If each author could start with something like that as a premise and create adult/erotic stories based on that type of world, the results might be fascinating.

I gather in YouTube SciFi, there are often many authors, who write audio plays, each starting with some sort of common premise and create their own take with the basics laid out.

Why wouldn't that work here? ... not a 'Halloween competition' type thing but a universe of stories exploring what those sorts of worlds might look like?

This type of thing is not in my normal wheelhouse. I honestly write about what I know and see (as hard as you might find that to believe). And I don't live in a First World' nation, so I don't have a good sense of the at-first subtle changes that might occur only to morph into more extreme things later. :-) I have lived in the Philippines for a couple of decades. So I really don't have a good sense for what is happening in those places now. I can, sort of, see it from afar but not write it.

--- A world in which the age of consent is rolled back to age twelve retroactively, where women have lost the right to vote or own property, rape is decriminalized, and as like in the Bible, if a girl is raped, she is then automatically married to the rapist under laws that allow polygamy. All to 'promote population growth' and stable 'conservative' values.

--- Another worldview where slavery (of women only?) is legalize.

--- Or one where fathers gather at once a year, to present each daughter of a specific age who will be purchased by another and where he will purchase someone else's daughter, for the purpose of breeding, all under the watchful eyes of government minders who register each transaction. All while the rights of some men, if not all, are enhanced while women's rights are wiped out and the world's major nations become fully fascist and neighboring nations find they must follow suit.

Such a thing, spread among a few dozen of capable authors, would make for some gripping stories as all investigate the potential worlds we might really be entering in reality.

If others think the idea has merit. I can either leave it to those of you who do and step completely back or have a hand in establishing the details of each premise to be tackled. In any event, I wish you all well. I am yours respectfully, VeryWellAged

Replies: Pixy ralord82276 JoeBobMack LupusDei REP irvmull Pixy jimq2 Mat Twassel Mushroom

Pixy 🚫

@WellAged

To be honest, sounds like a disaster in the making. If there is one thing that the denizens of this site can agree on, is to disagree when it comes to politics. But we will see. Sometimes it's nice to be proved wrong.

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Pixy

Politics is a compound word, made from poli meaning many and tics meaning blood sucking insects.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

Politics is a compound word, made from poli meaning many and tics meaning blood sucking insects.

Or polite emetics. "The Honourable Member for Chipping Sodemall makes me sick."

AJ

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Ah, is that what he said. I blocked him yonks ago, so I don't actually see his replies, just that he commented.

Good to see that there is no need to change that status.

ralord82276 🚫

@WellAged

While the story is not based in your proposed universe, other than the more extreme regression of female rights the societal background of FantasyLover's Lucky Jim 3: Cajun and Gator is similar to what you propose.
Collapsing economies world-wide led to governmental overthrows, massive loss of life, massive loss of infrastructure, etc with starvation rampant. A good husband became defined as one who can provide stability, safety and regular food. This resulted in men who have successfully proven themselves as providers ending up with multiple wives. The massive loss of infrastructure and mega-deaths due to starvation led to large areas of the country reverting to the wild. Yet there are still large urban areas and technology had regressed in a lot of areas but well advanced in others (hover-bikes for example).

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@WellAged

I think the break-out successes of The Swarm and Naked in Schools universes are fascinating.

Both had:
* A concept. Sort of the super-saturated solution. In the Swarm: pickups. In NIS: the Program. Neither was all that worked out at first. That came later, as authors became engaged and filled in back story and iterated possibilities.

* An apparently abusive setup that authors turned into something more humane. Not all, of course, but enough. In the Swarm, there are lots of stories where protagonists forego test drives to select on other criteria or establish pre-packs intended to be more families than harems. The self-discovery and personal growth stories in NIS.

*A seminal short story or two to kick things off. Average Joes for the swarm. Karen's first story for NIS. I think they have to be short. If the concept requires a novella or longer, it won't both catch the imagination of other authors and give them the freedom to create.

* Then a few talented authors who exploded the concept in new directions. Humane pickups, pre-packs, and Earth First for the Swarm. The self-discovery twist to NIS in some of the early stories.

So, thinking of these models:

*Simplify: Focus on the declining birth rate and the alienation of men aspect. This sets up a dynamic similar to the Swarm. And, yes, it's misogynistic. I suspect it is this tension that could make the universe take off if a few authors tried to take the concept seriously but show good people cooperating in a not-so-good world.

* I would suggest dropping the climate change aspect. For one thing, it sets up two dystopian dynamics, and I think that's one too many. Keep It Simple and Succeed. Plus, I suspect climate dystopia is more controversial with authors on this site than a conception collapse dystopia. And the conception collapse dystopia delivers the sexual tension that the two most successful universes on SOL had.

With that in mind, I'm imagining that this trend starts in Asia. Conception rates are collapsing faster there, and the cultures emphasize going along with the "norm."

Maybe South Korea? Heavily Christian culture that has modeled much after the West. Perhaps "Go forth and multiply" gets prioritized, along with the more patriarchal aspects of the Old Testament? Maybe the influence runs the other way with what starts in South Korea getting picked up and exploding in the good old USA and the rest of the developed world?

I think the principles need to get simplified and codified in the first story:

*Pregnancy (or the pursuit thereof) covers all sins, including rape, child brides (age 14 for SOL), even basically sexual slavery (your idea of fathers selling or swapping daughters would fit here), But remember, there are going to be fathers (and their friends) trying to protect daughters!

*But ONLY IF the male can support mother and child.

A good seminal story that raised these issues and offered one solution for them would get the ball rolling. Wouldn't even have to be the nicest, kindest, most humane solution -- see Average Joes. In fact, maybe better if the first solution left a lot to be desired. More motivation for others to write stories with "better" solutions.

Hope it takes off. Was just thinking today how much fun it would have been to have been on this site as the Swarm stories were dropping regularly!

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫

@JoeBobMack

As I said, in the beginning, it was an idea.

Asia? OK maybe, but probably not.

(A) China's response would not be a good model for anyone outside of China, and unless any of you are knowledgeable China-hands, I would stay out of it.

(B) As to Japan or South Korea, sure if any of you know the countries well enough to weave in the cultural dynamics as they are radically different from that of the "Western World." But their birthrate is in the below replacement range, so that's a maybe. if any on you know the nations and cultures well enough.

(C) Southeast Asia has a healthy birthrate so those countries are not good candidates.

So what are good candidates? France, the UK, Germany, Italy, (and most of the rest of the EU) and the USA. My money it is the very countries where most of you authors live.

As much as you are all seemingly fearful of the politics the growing fascist movements in those countries is very real. It is the very thing that is the catalyst for the societal changes. Think of the fight over the right for a woman's right to control her body and how there are states in the US who are making it illegal for a woman to leave her state to access an abortion. That's not someone else's world, that it possibly yours. Don't like it, then don't play. It's that simple.

These are to be cautionary tales. Sure there is sex in them, and misogyny, and some cruelty, as well as love and caring. But the stage is one of a political world that radically moves to where males hold all the power and women are regulated to different roles... all to 'save those civilizations.'

What else is happening to each of those civilizations? Well. it appears to be climate. Ignoring that, ignore the real world. I am proposing a real world, our world, not a fantasy world, for you to write about. If you can only write fantasy, then yeah, this is not for you. Take a bow and exist stage left. I don't write fantasy and leave that to those of you in whose capable hands it belongs.

Why I am not going to offer any such story? I truly live in a nation with a very stable birthrate at replacement level. And abortion has always been illegal here. So the world I live in is not a model for this. It is why I will not write a story on this concept. It would make no sense here and this is the world I know.

If there are any who are desirous to write about your own world and how the political climate + birthrate might reorder the values, then please raise your hand. Want to throw rocks? I guess you can, but the rocks do not really hit anyone who gives a shit. So, what was your purpose?

This was an idea, not a demand. It is something I would like to read and so it's a proposal. Those who want to play raise a hand and then those of you can vote on whether I should just leave the conversation or remain engaged. It will be up to you, not me.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@WellAged

Umm... Yeah. It's an idea. I was playing with it. Just reacting and playing with possibilities, and especially talking about what I see as key elements of shared universe that have taken off.

If you thought I was throwing stones, then I apologize for not being clear. I certainly didn't mean my comments that way. As I said, I hope the idea succeeds!

LupusDei 🚫

@WellAged

I live in a small, xenophobic country with rapidly declining population because of both deeply negative birthrate and economic emigration on top of it, even though we claim place in the "golden billion" somehow. And luckily we as of yet see very little immigration, and are generally hostile towards it anyhow, even celebrate certain people leaving.

Some guys even allegedly had a hobby maintaining a running tally of all niggers in the city for decades (it's a very small number indeed, and mostly consists of international students of top universities and visible figures such as athletes, doctors and restaurant chefs; actual illegal immigrants of wrong people mostly live in detention camps and try to escape south west as fast as they can, the winters here can be quite brutal for now), but we will deny being racist. It's just the exotic appearance that turn heads and drives attention. And yes, we do look strangers in the eyes here. We also have insanely large personal spaces.

Nobody in their everyday life is taking much notice of the population shrinkage ongoing. Building of new housing is still rampant and expensive, city suburbs, at very least in the capital is still expanding. How, if the country has gone from... without checking the accurate numbers, something in the ballpark of ~2.3m residents in the early nineties (right before USSR collapse) to ~1.9m now, mere 30 years later? Well, part of it is expanding dwelling size from the insanely cramped Soviet mandated norms, part of it is indeed depopulation of countryside away from the capital (with house roughly half of all people), while the region around it see growing exurban areas.

So, the ongoing urbanization mask the effects of the population decline, up to an extent. The labor market is a bit weird perhaps, as it's constantly at a deficit. It's not uncommon to hire someone and see them just not show up at all, because they had in talks with multiple employers or seemingly randomly left country to pick berries in Norway or something. Or if they do show up, they may quit in a week, for similar reasons, or no reason. Then, the inherited and EU updated labour laws are that you basically can't fire anyone any other way than politely asking them quit, so...

Well, you may wonder now, but things get done, mostly, even if not as fast as you might want. And sometimes you have to hire for a job someone who think the country shouldn't exist and we should be exterminated as a nation, and be polite, or wait a month or two for another specialist to become available. At the same time, it's basically impossible to get any work that matters without knowing at least three languages.

Well, there's that, we sort of bid our time until that genocidal attack by the insane much bigger but likewise dying neighbor who already wages a war to steal children against a different neighbor. No, I'm not making it up, that's the current situation. But the very real eventuality of running from killer drones creep into the equation of family planning, unwittingly.

As to the countryside, closing of schools is what people notice, but that wave is mostly over by now, as it all happened quite quickly. After the dissolution of USSR we went from involuntary internal exporter of foodstuffs to involuntary importer, swamped by much cheaper foreign food completely collapsing almost all agriculture for over a decade. When it eventually more or less recovered, it had cut employment by two to three magnitudes, and has no provision for subsistence+ farming that had been the backbone for past six thousand years. Being a nation that tend to self-identify as proud independent peasants that was a very painful adjustment. Well, folks larp it now, distance working white collar in the city from oversized mansions in the exurbs.

Culturally, we're traditionally almost matriarchal pagans, so those dynamics suggested here are rather alien influences. When every other girl is a six feet tall witch who can turn you into a frog or worse... Americans were very shocked when they found out the artillery captain we sent for training was girl. That elite school allegedly had no provisions for women yet then. Now it does. And as to abortion, I have been told by multiple girls that she never intend to use it personally, bug would fight if necessary for such a right. And, remember, they're all witches, it's a moot point, dead on arrival.

Happened I accompanied one guy interested to buy part of a neighboring property, and the owner, an octogenarian woman, randomly showcasing the partially defunct amelioration system installed back in Soviet era casually lifted the three feet wide and inch thick iron manhole cover of a collector up, and kept talking lively, swinging it in her hands. We also have basketball league in 75+ category, and many, even if maybe not most of those guys still work, if not for an employer than as a hobby effort of some sort. Just saying, those who doesn't kill themselves in one way or another live long here.

Over a quarter of kids study abroad. Their kids learn national language online, in remote school. We had that mostly up even before the pandemic, for this reason and the sizeable diaspora around since the previous wars, so when pandemic hit it was like two week mass adoption of an existing system, subsequently ironing out remaining kinks. Kids now use it on sick leave too, remaining in class virtually. The nation becomes increasingly virtual extraterritorial concept.

All that blunt and mask the downsizing, and as yet only freaks and higley specialized academics make worried noises. I imagine, for a while the thinning out vertical inheritance may be seen as good things by many for quite a while, even.

I don't quite know, but I'm led to believe, the situation might be somewhat similar all across the Europe, maybe with the added difference of the ongoing hostile immigration adding tension.

We had that in USSR as part of colonization effort of the empire, one of the big tension points that led to widespread support to seek independence, and subsequently we disenfranchised roughly a third of residents in a pursuit of the ethno-national state (it has protection of the national language as a goal in the constitution) -- everyone who arrived after 1939 and their descendants. We could do it, legally by "restoring" the state that existed 1918-1939.

All they had to naturalize is a basic exam in language and history. Some ten percent remain who haven't bothered. Well, to be fair, said history exam includes at least one question the correct answer on which is ideologically unacceptable to those holdouts. They also think they should never learn any other language than their imperial slurs. Yes, and before the war they could easier travel to their ancestral lands in that status because of imperial rump providing them special status, and apart from voting rights there's virtually no downside. In a way, we are already post-immigration, the risks of unintegreable immigration are comprehended here and not controversial, despite worker shortage.

We do currently accept refugees from the current war, in significant numbers, but those are seen as both temporary displaced and in many ways "our" people despite being Slavic. But the pre-christian beliefs and traditional lifestyle are similar in the western parts of of that country at least, so we are spiritual brothers of sorts. Still, there's some tension even there.

There's a movie set in Britain in a world where no known kids had been born for 17 years, and yet they wage xenophobic war against immigrants and almost kill the only pregnant (immigrant) woman, who then "escape" with a secretive organization doing human experiments. The title escape me right now, but that's a movie very worth to see for in my opinion very well thought out background details, even if the presentation may be slightly dated already (like, the huge flat panel TV screens were yet extremely limited and expensive when it was made and are used to showcase runaway consumption).

What I'm going at, my reading of European mindset is that population shrinking is to a point acceptable aside of the fears of replacement and that's the most likely short term tension point, and will be tried to be "solved" before intensified breading programs.

I do see where you're coming from, and indeed, it's really likely just a matter of time some emerging fascist regime decides outbreeding opposition is the right way.

Replies: WellAged samt26

WellAged 🚫
Updated:

@LupusDei

Your take on eastern European may be correct. But...

France seems to be worried if this article is reflecting the mood.

Germany is also concerned if this link is correct.

They are worried in the UK according to this article.

France is in the throws of a right-wring, quasi-fascist rise as Marie La Pen's party has successfully force a no confidence vote again the moderate prime-minister, Germany has seen the dramatic wise of the AfD in what used to be East Germany, and the political instability in the UK doesn't argue the proto-fascists of the far-right coming to power and replacing the Conservative party as the one on the "right."

Italy, a nation that is being led by the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini, who is the leader of her grandfather's old political party, is also struggling as this article discusses.

In the US, the incoming administration talks about setting up camps to process millions it wants to deport from the country. While they remain unable to come up with a program that know they need to deal with the issue as this article mentions.

For the record I excluded Russia as their political system wouldn't need to need to change to implement such changes and it wouldn't give the sense of a society breaking apart and being reimagined.

This is a problem that is felt more deeply by those in power in those governments rather than average citizen.

Replies: LupusDei

LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@WellAged

Yeah, we have articles like this in local papers like once monthly for the past two decades with headlines screaming "we're dying out" or other words to that effect. And popular opinion, is, basically, "Meh. So what?"

You can't scare people into having babies. The more you're scaremongering the less children you get. I also think the "economy" is kind of red herring there. I haven't seen data breakdowns by income groups, but won't be surprised by trends being flat for all. Traditionally it's been poor and very poor who had the many children offsetting the planned smaller families of the rich. Now the first world poor are actually rich in practice, and others are catching up. The upper rich actually may already have more children by now, or that's a trend to watch after. The rich should advertise having big families, no matter how disordered.

The big elephant is the "I won't have a baby that turns my life upside down," and ever increasing age of a first child. That trend is even worse news on top of the childbirth rate as such.

The fertility window being roughly 15 to 45, it conveniently divides into 20 childbearing slots of 18 months each. Boys are nearly irrelevant as long we have a few around; to understand population dynamics all we need to know about are daughters.

Compare: a girl having a daughter at fifteen who has a daughter at fifteen who has a daughter at fifteen; in thirty years we have population (46, 31, 16, 1). If each had another child at thirty, the population is (46, 31, 16, 16, 1, 1, 1). Lets add a third child at 45 for a (46, 31, 16, 16, 1, 1, 1, 1) to see how dramatic this can become, as now we have four same age newborns descending from our original woman who had only three children total: a child, a grandchild, two greatgrandchildren, and one great-great-grandchild, all the same age.

(That's about how I have second cousin twice removed who's my age.)

Even having the same three daughters late in life, let's say at 36, 39 and 42 in the same thirty years we have a population (46, 10, 7, 4) and at the same trend will have to wait another 26 years for the next child.

The outcomes in 75 years are now:
(91, 55, 52, 49, 19, 16, 16, 13, 13, 13, 10, 10, 7)
vs
(91, 76, 51, 51, 36, 36, 36, 36, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6)
In the above teen pregnancy case. Yes, that's 12 six year old by each woman having only the same three children (assumed daughters or having available female partner of the same age) at 15, 30, and 45 respectively for a showcase algorithmic case as opposed to having the same three children at 35+. Extending this further it will become more and more dramatic. Having the early child case less spaced out will too, but I wanted to point out how generations overlap. Having three children at 15,17,19 and so on for each of descendants in 75 years will produce a population of
(91, 76,74,72, 61, 59,59, 57,57,57, 55,55,53, 46, 44,44,44, 42, 42,42, 42,42,42, 40,40, 40,40,40, 40,40, 38,38,38,38,38, 36,36,36, 34, 31, 29,29,29,29, 27,27,27,27, 27,27,27,27,27,27, 25,25,25, 25,25,25,25,25,25, 25,25,25,25,25,25, 23,23,23,23,23,23, 23,23,23,23,23,23, 23,23,23,23,23,23, 21,21,21,21,21,21,
21,21,21,21,21,21, 21,21,21,21,21,21, 19,19,19,19,19,19, 19,19,19,19, 17,17,17,17, 16, 15, 14,14,14,14, 12, 12,12,12, 12,12,12, 12,12,12, 12,12,12,12,12,12, 10,10,10, 10,10,10, 10,10,10, 10,10,10,10,10,10,
10,10,10,10,10,10, 10,10,10,10,10,10,
8,8,8, 8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 8,8,8,8,8,8, 6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6,6,6,6, 6,6,6, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4, 4,4,4,4,4,4, 4,4,4,4, 2,2,2,2,2,2, 2,2,2,2,2,2, 2,2,2, 2,2,2,2,2,2, 2,2,2,2, 2,2,2,2, 1, 0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0)

Yes, to reiterate, those all are descendants of a single 15 years old girl if everyone have just the same three children as fast as they possibly can. There's 12, 25, 343 descendants after 75 years all at the same R=3 but different childbirth age. Human population can rebound very quickly if they're going at it. Consider, in this last scenario nobody had any more children after turning twenty, while there's 25 more fertile years, an unused potential for up to 18 additional children for each excluding twin chances. With R=20 arbitrary small initial population can repopulate the world to 10B in a couple centuries only restricted by resource management.

If an ambitious and unrestricted ruler seriously wants to rejuvenate the society, they want to see a high school class full of baby bumps.

The original nazi tried to do just that. They coopted FKK (Free Body Culture = philosophical nudist movement) to send school kids to two month summer camps with no clothes allowed, ostensibly to rudge them up, living in tents with minimal oversight. Yes, many girls ended up knocked up, and got called Hitler's Brides.

What a country with repopulating directive should look after is consequences free teenage pregnancy. I mean, the girl gets pregnant in a more or less pre-planned directly or tacitly state supported event, keep going to school with a belly showing with no harassment for that, pushes the baby out and keeps going to school and parties a week or two later care free, proceeding to college as if nothing happened. And yes, they will hate it. The country will have to seek to place the baby with her older relatives or otherwise, or better yet pick it up 100% covered.

So we will have a mandatory childbirth on public high school curriculum for every able female student. So why not learn childcare right there? Roll it all in one, school, daycare and orphanage for the state owned schoolborn shared parentless children who in under twenty years will be independent population reproducing itself effectively. Only really need to mandate one schoolborn baby. Not at all that disruptive, me thinks. After graduation she goes to college or whatever, get married if she prefers, have private babies if so inclined. Only need another R=1 on average there. Can tolerate even less if some of schoolborn girls are rolled into full time human farms with local R=20 producing adoptees or holiday children for rent.

Well... yes, that's like only what crazy commies could possibly attempt.

But consider that many a nazi in Europe are in fact socialist at heart. In very name: national socialist. Yes, the implementation usually soon flip into a kleptocracy oligarchy, in effect even USSR did to some extent only wasn't as obvious about it. But the theory is there, they are for the people, only for people of an in-tribe of some sort. So, the unpacked ideal is a caste system, actually. That offers other interesting possibilities, obviously. All the while formally upholding most of the freedoms (mandatory baby at school asside) for that core desired population, at least nominally.

Or alternatively, consider ultra-liberal backlashes after nazi failure. For the same effect.

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫

@LupusDei

Thank you. I was aware of the Nazi program, though your numbers are optimistic as to achieve three daughters, there would be six children born. And that, while possible, is unlikely in an urban population without a 'breeding program.'

Yes, here in the Philippines, one of my gals has fourteen siblings, and six of them are her sisters. But she grew up in on a rural farm, of two hectares, and the place had no electricity or running water. (There was a stream close by and buckets to haul the water for both crops and human use.) She is an aunt to a woman twenty years older than she is as well as a second cousin to a woman forty years older than she is. That is one of the reasons why the birthrate in the Philippines is not too low. It is why I am not one to write these stories.

The Nazis have modern-day doppelgangers and "nation socialist" = Fascist not true socialist. [It's like being pro-life while supporting the death penalty and failing to provide adequate food, shelter and such to poor desperate children and their mothers. That's just savvy marketing.] So put in the current, or probably soon to be fascist within months, columns: France;Italy;Germany;USA. They are good initial targets for these stories.

It isn't the crazy commies. They tend to be inept at this (maybe with the exception of that "commie/fascist weird concatenation," the Kim dynasty, in North Korea). It's the fascists. They don't have even a fig-leaf of a pretense to care about anything other than the State.

In both China and Russia we see men kidnapping women from other countries as there aren't enough females. Those nations aren't in my list for a number of reasons.

Look at your own nation.

Who wants to play?

samt26 🚫

@LupusDei

the movie you're thinking of is Children of Men, brilliant and thoughtful movie

REP 🚫

@WellAged

Stories of the type you appear to be considering will most likely be the cause of arguments between readers.

Lazeez has terminated many Forum threads because of arguments in the Forum. Political stories will lead to further political arguments on this website.

If Lazeez wants to allow inflammatory political stories to be posted, people will likely violate his ban on political arguments in the Forum.

Replies: WellAged Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

WellAged 🚫

@REP

Well, Lazeez was the the very one who encouraged me to post this initially and I suspect he knows what is posted because he initially had me post the initial piece in another, somewhat long dead forum and then decided to create a new forum and reposted my comments in this one himself.

If he wants to end this, Lazeez being the decent person he it, he will tell me this is not going to work and that wull be that. However, REP, all you had to say was you aren't interested. That's fine.

For the record, I never said, nor am I arguing that a writer should think, any nation was wrong in electing a fascist. You guys are welcome to elect anyone you choose. This is not a knock on anyone's political leanings. It is only an exploration regarding how fascist regimes will come to grips with a shrinking demographic. Hells bells, I live in a nation where the VP has said she has paid a hit man to kill the president, his wife and his cousin, if she eats a bullet. Normal? Normal left the planet. Our world ain't normal.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@REP

If Lazeez wants to allow inflammatory political stories to be posted, people will likely violate his ban on political arguments in the Forum.

I started this forum section because of one thing WellAged mentioned which is shrinking world population.

I believe that world depopulation is the biggest threat to our current civilization. Whether you believe in climate change or not, it's not the big threat.

I want this issue to be more prominent and hopefully participants here may be able to come up with some workable ideas to combat this problem.

For the longest time, overpopulation was highlighted and worried about because people were very short-sighted and humanity had never in its known history dealt with this kind of threat. We know how to resist an external attacks that wants to wipe us out, but we have no clue how to change this death spiral we're on because it's coming from within.

I don't care about anybody's politics, left, right, up, down, individualist, collectivist, libertarian, liberal, conservative, christian, muslim, hindu, etc... We're all facing this civilizational threat.

What people don't seem to realize is that it takes a certain number of people to maintain a certain level of technology and without the big number of people we currently have, many of the things we take for granted these days are not even possible. A simple example, if you're using a smart phone, do you have any idea of the level of investment that is required to produce such a technological marvel? Do you somehow think that such an investment is possible with few millions in sales instead of the billions?

Such technology requires a certain number of people to be smart enough to be able to handle its design and creation and a certain number of people is required to be able to produce it. Smaller numbers in population make the number of people who are smart enough too small, and a smaller number of people working in manufacturing makes it also impossible to manufacture the various pieces through an extensive enough supply chain.

A shrinking population means a slow and gradual regression in what kind of technology we're able to produce and at a certain point, there just won't be enough people to handle all the small and big jobs required for this civilization and there would be a sudden collapse that sends us back to hopefully not the Stone Age, but maybe only to the Bronze Age or Iron Age.

I don't know how many young people visit the site or will come across our posts, but it's their world to worry about as most of us here are too old to make much impact.

But maybe we'll be able to help guide them away from the cliff that our civilization seems to be inexorably heading towards.

The west has been dealing with shrinking populations by importing people, but that will only work in the short term. Because at some point, even the productive countries with high fertility rate will drop enough to not be productive enough to prop up a dying world.

Yes, these changes in fertility rates and the methods of handling them will have huge political consequence, but they must be handled. So yes, there will be political stuff in the discussion and the stories that may be inspired and I think that's ok, as long as we're dealing with this main problem.

Here are few links from YouTube about the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahjdeDhP09o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4VpeQsQ1Nw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqHEmCA27hM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk5KoWUwz6Q

So the existential question for our civilization has become: How do we make having more kids appealing to the current generation of young women?

I've now decided to change the forum section's title from Cautionary Tales to 'World Depopulation Discussions'

Replies: Michael Loucks awnlee jawking WellAged samt26

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

So the existential question for our civilization has become: How do we make having more kids appealing to the current generation of young women?

It's more complicated than that — generally speaking (and yes, I know generalizations break down), children are a net bonus with regard to family resources in an agrarian society and a net drain with regard to family resources in an industrialized society.

Extra kids (once they reach age five or six) on a farm mean you can be more productive, and the production outweighs the cost; the same is true for resource gathering (whatever it might be — wood, ore, etc.).

In an industrialized society, because of schooling, etc, extra kids increase costs to the family with no increase in production. This is a deterrent to having large families.

I had five kids despite my wife and I both being professionals. That was so out of the ordinary that it raised eyebrows in the 1990s in Chicago. My grandmother had six kids in the 30s and 40s, and nobody thought twice about it in Cincinnati. Now, having more than two kids is rare.

Think about the net cost of raising a child in the 2000s from birth to graduation from college — it's easily half a million dollars (and that's if they go to a state school). They provide little (and often no) economic contribution to the family.

Compare this with a an agrarian family where having four boys and a girl (my family) would provide significant labor to produce grain, raise cattle, produce milk, eggs, and cheese, and so on. All of which make an economic contribution and make a large family viable.

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Michael Loucks

It's more complicated than that — generally speaking (and yes, I know generalizations break down), children are a net bonus with regard to family resources in an agrarian society and a net drain with regard to family resources in an industrialized society.

I'm aware of the difference. However, I grew up in a non-agrarian society. I was born in the 60s. My mother had access to birth control; however, everybody had more than 2 kids. It was the norm. The vast majority of people in our town had 3 to 5 kids. It was not financially rewarding to have the kids, but our parents still did it even though they were poorer than the current generation.

I've read some research that showed that those who have kids are still having roughly the same number of children as before. So the average number of children per mother is still roughly the same. What the problem is now is that there are fewer mothers/fathers.

So the current generation is failing to start having kids.

Same research showed that there is now a huge number of women who actually had planned to be mothers, but somehow simply failed in their life plans.

So it seems a big part of the problem is the current life plans for women and how it's stopping them from meeting the right person at the right time to have a bunch of kids.

Whether it's the college -> job -> family thing it is, or that women are more educated than ever and aren't attracted to men who are less educated than they are, there are a bunch of circumstances now that conspire against families being formed and children are not being produced in sufficient numbers. Those circumstances need to be mitigated.

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I'm aware of the difference. However, I grew up in a non-agrarian society. I was born in the 60s. My mother had access to birth control; however, everybody had more than 2 kids. It was the norm. The vast majority of people in our town had 3 to 5 kids. It was not financially rewarding to have the kids, but our parents still did it even though they were poorer than the current generation.

It takes several generations for the change to occur, but the statistics line up. There will always be things other then economics which affect the decision to have more children (religion being the primary one), but the overall trend is for industrialized societies to have fewer children per capita (since the advent of child labor laws) and one can see that on a global scale.

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster) awnlee jawking

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Michael Loucks

It takes several generations for the change to occur, but the statistics line up.

Every country that tried to solve the fertility issue through economic solutions (extra pay per child, free day care, extra maternal leave etc...) has failed. Look at the fertility rates of Scandinavia, South Korea, who have those solutions implemented, very low fertility rates.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Since this is now about story ideas, this is off-topic. But could your point be a sort or retrospective justification for man's inbuilt reaction to overcrowding. It's noticeable that as the population of a conurbation increases, so does the crime rate. Is it just coincidence that conurbations are a result of industrialisation?

AJ

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫

@awnlee jawking

China's birthrate was not dropping fast enough for their liking so they imposed their one-child policy, and that was despite being the most populous nation on earth (at the time) and densely populated.

And urbanization is necessary for large-scale industrialization. People flocked to cities for work, and industry needs people, so it was symbiotic.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I've now decided to change the forum section's title from Cautionary Tales to 'World Depopulation Discussions'

For what it's worth, in my putative question and answer session with God, She asserted that there are too many of us. And that was before we broke the 8 billion barrier ;-)

AJ

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@awnlee jawking

This God don't know much.

I took the number from NASA about the space/land area needs per person, I multiplied them by 4, and ignoring all the inhospitable areas of earth, I got the number that earth can support (easily because I divided it by 4 basically.

Ready? The earth can actually support up to 30 Billion people, EASILY.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

'This God' is clearly not the god of Abraham so I reckon you can say what you like without fear of being struck down by a thunderbolt :-)

AJ

WellAged 🚫
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Yes there are societies that have surfeits of population. And yes it is fair to argue that 8 billion is far too many in the aggregate.

However, this planet we live on is not homogeneous and evenly spread-out demographically. Polities come in all sizes and under a myriad number of organizing principles. Polities that find they are challenged by low birthrate are not going to act for the good of the planet. They are going to act to survive regardless of the impact on the planet. In a way, it's much like the climate issue. No one wants to act until they, themselves feel threatened. That is why I highlight the two issues in my initial letter to you.

While I certainly have no complaint about the renaming of the forum, my initial letter was not to solve the population bomb, but to explore how a specific type of polity responds to a specific demographic threat.

Those polities will not give a hoot about your question: How do we make having more kids appealing to the current generation of young women?

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@WellAged

However, this planet we live on is not homogeneous and evenly spread-out demographically. Polities come in all sizes and under a myriad number of organizing principles. Polities that find they are challenged by low birthrate are not going to act for the good of the planet. They are going to act to survive regardless of the impact on the planet. In a way, it's much like the climate issue. No one wants to act until they, themselves feel threatened. That is why I highlight the two issues in my initial letter to you.

Each one of us will have a point of view and an area of focus. The way the countries that have a concern about fertility rates have been dealing with this problem has so far led to plenty of political unrest, especially those countries that tried importing people from countries that they had occupied previously and whose populations have a grudge against their colonizers (France and the UK).

If that's your focus, then awesome, write a story that way.

If your focus is more towards the psychological side or practical side like me, well, I focus on that.

My own favourite solution? Pass a law that forbids passports and higher education to women until they have two kids minimum. After two kids, they can do whatever they want with their lives.

One could also write about a society that encourages polygyny to make it possible for the few top men that educated women compete for to father many children with as many women as possible, and one can write about a man who's facing challenges to become one of those top men that women want so desperately.

One could also write about the journey of an African Black man to Scandinavia and his experience in the programs that try to teach those young men to seduce white women instead of raping them. Yes, that's an actual program in Sweden.

Societies that outlaw birth control and abortion as a method of birth control.

Ultra-rich men with basically bought harems. Brutal men with kidnapped harems. Handmaid societies...

etc...

The possibilities are endless.

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

If that's your focus, then awesome, write a story that way.

As I said in the very beginning. This is:
(a) for those who live in those affected locales. I don't, and;
(b) I was wanting to see if there were a series of voices that might take a set of factors and elements, each creating their own stories like it is done in SciFi on audio-only stories on YouTube.

So this has gone off the rails. Enjoy the active forum, I guess. This is so not what I was wanting to engage on as it is useless to pursue it further.

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@WellAged

This is so not what I was wanting to engage on as it is useless to pursue it further.

Alright, I deleted the forum's section and moved this discussion to the 'Story Ideas' section.

Feel free to direct this discussion in whichever direction you want.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Alright, I deleted the forum's section and moved this discussion to the 'Story Ideas' section.

Possibly in future cases, leave a note where the thread used to be, directing people to where the moved thread now exists? I went to read comments and was rather perplexed because it was no longer there and I couldn't remember anything inflammatory that would necessitate it's removal. Then I wondered what had been said that necessitated its removal and was curious to know (FOMO).

samt26 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Shrinking population could well be our saviour. If we can get down to 1 billion or a little less we may be able to live sustainably. At the rate we are going we are poisoning the world very fast, and doing nothing to unpoison it. I can recommend the book The World Without Us, it gives a pretty good feel for what our footprint is on earth.

Replies: Dominions Son John Demille awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@samt26

If we can get down to 1 billion or a little less we may be able to live sustainably.

As Lazeez said, we wouldn't be able to maintain current technology with that low of a population.

The global population hit 1 billion in 1804. Do you really want to go back to a 19th century lifestyle?

John Demille 🚫
Updated:

@samt26

Shrinking population could well be our saviour. If we can get down to 1 billion or a little less we may be able to live sustainably.

Humanity going back to pre-industrial-level technology doesn't guarantee sustainability. More technology does.

At the rate we are going we are poisoning the world very fast, and doing nothing to unpoison it.

That is the problem with the world today. Everybody has been brainwashed by environmental groups (that benefit greatly from scaring the shit out of you to get you to donate to them), along with the governments (who get to tax you to death) to think that somehow we're killing the planet.

If you were to look around you and keep your eyes open, you'll see differently.

Although, if you're living in a major city in the US, you may truly believe it as those cities have turned to shit. So you need to look outside of major US cities.

Go on YouTube and look for the greening of earth videos. The earth is greener than ever due to human effort and due to human activity.

Here are the first three that come up:

https://youtu.be/RlzABuM9-dw

https://youtu.be/WCli0gyNwL0

https://youtu.be/QXQrvT23rPw

We pollute and we clean up. We are not running out of resources. Human ingenuity guarantees that we will find solutions to any shortages. No copper? We'll find a new way to do the things that need copper in a different way using different materials.

More CO2 in the air? That's a good thing in general. Plants love it, which is why the world is greener. It also makes growing food for the world easier (look up air fertilizer). The world is warming up? Since when is that a bad thing? People die from the cold; humanity suffered in the years where the world got colder. It flourished whenever there was a warming period. Look up the reason why the Vikings reached and lived on Iceland.

Human efforts have brought life to undersea areas that couldn't sustain life before. There are huge swathes of bare sea floor where there is too much sand to provide any shelter for fish or foothold to corals. Humans have been building structures under the sea to bring more life to those areas.

https://youtu.be/_EwxAu8IYN0

https://youtu.be/6G8ID53zM-0

Planet Earth does NOT care about you. You have to fight to survive on this planet. Look at any abandoned city or village; wildlife and wild plants will take over in a hurry and erase your previous existence given enough time.

We're not killing the planet. The planet cannot be killed. Life evolves to survive in whatever environment is available. You would think a place like Chernobyl would be a dead zone if you were to listen to environmentalists, but you'd be wrong. Again, go on YouTube and look up Chernobyl; you'll see that life simply goes on. It's the human structures that suffered. Plants, animals, they all adapted.

https://youtu.be/XaUNhqnpiOE

What's the point of Planet Earth without humans? There are billions and billions of planets in this vast universe, and the only planet with consciousness on it that we know of is Earth. Consciousness is us. Human consciousness is currently the rarest thing in this universe. Might even be the only consciousness that has evolved yet. It's our job, it's our duty to preserve our collective consciousness. We definitely shouldn't be risking wiping out a huge number of humans; that's for sure. We must make human existence interplanetary lest we disappear from an asteroid like the dinosaurs.

I can recommend the book The World Without Us, it gives a pretty good feel for what our footprint is on earth.

Yes, exactly. If we were to disappear, Earth wouldn't care, and it would fill our place with some other species. Species come and go. Did humans cause the Megalodon to disappear? No. Did we kill the Paraceratherium or the Brontotherium? No, of course not. Humans weren't there then. Life adapts. Environmentalists always talk about the species that go extinct but never mention the ones evolving. Life doesn't care about humans. Only humans care about humans.

Anybody pushing any anti-humanist agenda is mentally ill and maladapted to the survival of humans.

Why would I care? Let's say that the pandas go extinct? They're cute and funny but totally useless. Would the pandas care if humans disappeared? Would elephants feel upset that we disappeared? I highly doubt it.

Edited to add:

Just to illustrate the level of brainwashing going on. To give an example of large animals that went extinc before humans existed, I asked chatGpt: what mega-fauna went extinct 10 million years ago, and its answer was examples of animals that disappeard 10,000 years ago due to humans. And it added a little lecture about climate change.

I then used Grok, same question, and it simply gave me five example without any lecture.

Be careful where you get your answers these days.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@samt26

At the rate we are going we are poisoning the world very fast

I watched an interesting documentary recently in which researchers found that the key to soil fertility and crop yields, even more than using lots of fertilisers, was the quantity and diversity of soil bacteria.

High concentrations of weedkiller or pesticide really does a number on the soil bacteria.

Most commercial GM crops have been modified to tolerate high levels of powerful weedkillers (eg Roundup) and/or pesticides.

Growing such GM crops has diminishing returns. I believe, after about 10 years, yields are no greater than their non-GM versions produced, only the GM crops are utterly dependent on higher and higher levels of fertilisers plus the weedkiller and/or pesticide.

I have no idea how long it would take the soil to recover if left untreated.

AJ

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@WellAged

Such stories don't interest me. If I want to read a biased irrational political rant, every politician will be happy to send me a supply, free of charge.

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫

@irvmull

For the record, I never said, nor am I arguing that a writer should think, any nation was wrong in electing a fascist. You guys are welcome to elect anyone you choose. This is not a knock on anyone's political leanings. It is only an exploration regarding how fascist regimes will come to grips with a shrinking demographic. Hells bells, I live in a nation where the VP has said she has paid a hit man to kill the president, his wife and his cousin, if she eats a bullet. Normal? Normal left the planet. Our world ain't normal.

If you think it's a rant, well you are wrong. I don't give a shit one way or the other.

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@WellAged

If you think it's a rant, well you are wrong. I don't give a shit one way or the other.

When I wrote that, I wasn't thinking about you.
There are a couple of authors on SOL who have written such stories. AFAIK, I've never read anything written by you, other than posts in this thread.

But if the shoe fits... perhaps you were planning to write one, otherwise, why so touchy?

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫
Updated:

@irvmull

Weird response. And no reason to have read my work. I probably have not read yours.

Anyway, no one is forcing you to do anything. I have no idea if anyone would be interested in this idea as a basis for stories. I was just musing about it in a note to Lazeez.

I will not write on this subject as it is not something I have the background for. I have made that clear, here, another of times.

So, I fail to see the value of your comment. This forum is only to see if there are some who want to engage. Since you don't, why are you even engaging? Feeling threatened by reality? Do yourself a favor and move on.

Pixy 🚫

@WellAged

I shall watch Laz's video's later when my headphones re-charge, but this subject has been the topic of much debate amongst academia for quite some time. Lots of people have opinions, myself included.

My personal take, is that in the UK, people can't afford children. It's as simple as that. Personal debt is at such an unsustainable level, that both parties of a biological reproducing pairing need to be fully working just to exist, let alone progress.

Watching old BBC "Tomorrows World's", the consistent trend about the 'future' was always one of, "Things will be so cheap as to be almost free. Nuclear will make electricity so cheap as to be almost free. Automation will make goods so cheap to be almost free and there will be no need for 'work'." In reality, the exact opposite has happened. Everything has become more expensive and the divide between the haves and the have nots, is growing ever greater.

It's also disingenuous to say that populations are declining across the board. They are not. Some are doing very well. But that's the problem. The populations that are doing very well, tend to be of a specific ideology. One where women are to be given no rights or station. Certainly no education. Which is completely at odds with large swathes of the world, where women who are not seen to be 'successful', are publicly scorned and mocked.

There is an argument that the drive for 'equality' between the sexes is one of the major contributing factors to dropping birth-rates. Women simply can't afford the financial and public pressure to take time out of their 'careers' to raise children. Even if it's just for the later stages of pregnancy and the recovery after birth.

Yet, humanity shoots itself in the proverbial foot, because we cannot have a grown up, sensible discussion on the matter because immediately someone will shout out an 'ism'. Whether it be racism, sexism or similar, and because no-one wants to be tarred with the label and become a social pariah, everyone just goes along with it, feeding the furnace of idiocy.

Want to improve birth rates? Simple, just make existence possible for a couple on one salary. As anyone who works or has worked in 'social care' knows, the unemployed have absolutely no problem in having children. Especially if the 'state' pays child benefit for each child born. It's also known that the money meant for the children more often than not, goes to feeding the parents drink/drug habit.

If you look at demographics for the last century, birth rates declined in conjunction with the drive to 'enable' more women to join the workplace/workforce. Having the man as the sole income provider is so terribly outdated and sexist... A woman, staying at home, looking after the children? Don't be so backwards.

However, humanity didn't want to stop just there. It decided to enforce upon young girls that they have failed if their husband isn't at least six foot tall with a six figure salary and the looks of a male model. In America, to be six foot tall (or over) with a six figure salary, puts you in something daft like the ten percent of the population. Simple maths will tell you that 100% of the non-gay females of a population chasing after 10% of a the male population is not going to end happily, for everyone concerned.

This problem is further compounded by social media (of which young women are the largest consumers) basically brain washing the young and fertile, to not lower their inflated expectations and to chase a more realistic partner.

For years, academia has been warning 'The West' that, 'The East' was further advanced socially than the West was, and that all the social problems Asian countries were experiencing, would come to these shores unless steps were made. Derision followed and nothing was done. Thirty years later, the UK is starting to socially be in the place Japan was thirty years ago.

My neighbour is in his early twenties, has a good job (electrician) and in my opinion, is not displeasing to the eye, yet is single. I did politely enquire as to why, and the subsequent replies over the years, combined, make for a depressing trend. Basically, he said he is just too tired. When he gets home, he just wants to relax and play computer games. His experience with women had not been great, stating that all the girls his age want a lifestyle he simply couldn't afford and were too demanding (they expected him to dress a certain way, have a certain car and go on regular foreign holidays). In his words "I can't afford to keep them in a TikTok lifestyle. It's just easier not to bother."

I can see, and understand, how problematic such a phrase could be in modern society, with a large portion of society stating "Why shouldn't she expect to live a TikTok lifestyle?"

Of course, there are fancy buzzwords to explain modern behaviours. Like, Men Going There Own Way (MiGTOW) and similar, but for many of the older generation, such behaviour is incomprehensible. Which is unfortunate, as that older generation, tends to be the policy maker for a nation. In the UK, the average age of an MP is fifty. Yes, with age comes experience, but those fifty year olds have no experience of modern day living or the pressures experienced by the younger generation.

In Japan, relationships between men and women have become so toxic, that they no longer see a relationship as two people utilising their individual strengths to overcome the other's weaknesses and to become something greater in the whole. Women are expected to be better, are told that they are 'better', and 'society' sees men now more as either inferior or predators.

This trend is happening in the West and can be seen in mainstream media where the male is no longer the 'saviour' of a story and is, more often than not, portrayed as the antagonist. Just look to recent film and TV shows, where more often than not, the female lead is without flaw of any description. (She-Hulk, The Rings of Power, the latest iteration of Snow White, etc etc). Even in computer games, there is a desire lately to emasculate male characters. Such behaviour is not going to find much support amongst male players who will simply vote with their wallets. Which is why so many recent games have catastrophically flopped.

Female role models are good, desirable, in moderation, but the pendulum has swung too far in that direction and a course change is inevitable.

I don't know why 'The West' has decided to militarise the relationship between the sexes. I don't know why they have made existence one of battle, rather than co-existence. Could it be the result of impassioned, same sex attracted minorities getting revenge for childhood trauma?

There is a lot of 'issues' with immigrants not fitting into the cultures they have moved to. In both the UK and Ireland, rapes of young women have trebled in the last few years. Getting a statistical breakdown is extremely difficult with police forces refusing to disclose the ethnicity of attackers. However, there is strong correlation between areas experiencing a surge in sexual attacks with areas where there is a high percentage of 'refugees' from Middle Eastern countries (where, incidentally, populations are not declining).

It may be too simplistic to state, that if you want to increase a countries birth-rate, you have to treat the women of the country more like cattle (as they do in the Middle East). Quite rightly, the existing female demographic is not going to be too enamoured with that idea and politically, and socially, it is going to be extremely confrontational. But simply put, if you want women to become pregnant, you need to provide them with an environment in which they will feel safe and supported during their pregnancy and child rearing.

The Middle East has taken that to extreme's, by the simple expediency of removing from women, their right to education and their right to medical care, their right to do anything other than child bear. Even going so far as to stop women from training to become midwives and requiring that they can go nowhere without a male relative being present. Even to gynaecological appointments, a male family member must be present.

If you type into Google, what the fastest growing religion is, it's Islam. The fastest growing countries? The ones with Islam as the main religion. The fastest growing religious demographic in the UK? Islam. The areas in the UK with the highest rate of births? The areas where Islam is prevalent.

This is where we need to have a sensible discussion about birth-rates and why it's dropping. There is unavoidable correlation between women's rights, their freedoms and what we, as a society, expects of them, and the need of society overall to grow.

Treating them like cattle is not the way forward. Restricting their choices, education, what they can wear, say or do, is not the way forward. A middle ground needs to be found, where they can live, but not be expected to have to work forty hours or more a week, just to eat and have a warm roof over their head and that of their children.

Right, my headphones should be charged by now, so I'm off to watch some links…

Replies: WellAged

WellAged 🚫
Updated:

@Pixy

I made much an argument much in line with some of your comments in my blog on my own website, not the one I have on SOL. I even provide a PEW research chart that shows some of this. As to the UK, with the advent of BREXIT they have lost the additional labor force that protected them from the ravages of low birthrate. I would argue that they are now in trouble.

So, as I am less interested in this as a forum discussion, than I am as a spring board for actual stories by multiple authors using common these and elements like it seen in the audio only Youtube pieces for SciFi, are you up for it?

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@WellAged

are you up for it?

No, basically.

Effective collaboration requires a similar thought process with a similar goal in mind. I have neither the time, nor the ability for such an undertaking.

jimq2 🚫

@WellAged

Here in AZ, I have noticed that the majority of Caucasian and Oriental families generally have no more than 2 children. The Hispanic families generally have 4 or more. The large Hispanic families are usually on some sort of government subsidy* whether they are here legally or not. We have a large population that have come here to have "anchor babies." Since the babies are born here, they cannot be deported even though their parents are here illegally, and that means that usually the parents are not deported. Most of the Hispanics that are here legally do not like the illegals. The illegals with subsidized housing are a major part of the reason that rents have gone up more than 50% in the last 5 years.

* Food stamps, Subsidized housing, Utility assistance, Free medical, Free language assistance for the kids in school, and Welfare money.

Replies: WellAged garymrssn

WellAged 🚫

@jimq2

Yes, and what is negative for you at the same time helps the birthrate / worker replacement concern. Two sides of the same coin.

It, however, is also the nub of a problem for some in your nation as some dislike the concept of the "browning of America". So the demand for deportation, the end of birthright citizenship, et al, leads to the problem of how such a nation adds population while at the same time, deporting those it 'doesn't want.'

Your concern about those folks are getting public money ... is it because it being used by the undeserving not the ones you might want to see get government largess? Why do I ask that?

Because all 'liberal' / and even some quasi-fascist as well as communist governments have offered significant government money to those who add to their families. And that money if fully successful would vastly outstrip what the 'undeserving' are getting in the aggregate. So far the support for the deserving has not worked.

The additional 'liberal' answer was, and probably remains, a more open immigration policy. In Europe that opens to door to those from the Middle East and Africa which means an influx of predominantly Islamic cultures which they don't want. In the US, it seems to be anyone who is not white and christian from anywhere.

So, once again, my concept for stories is how such nations solve that contradiction.

garymrssn 🚫
Updated:

@jimq2

Here in AZ, I have noticed that the majority of Caucasian and Oriental families generally have no more than 2 children. The Hispanic families generally have 4 or more.

The Hispanic families are by and large devout Catholic.
The Catholic faith historically demanded the most efficient population building rules regarding reproduction. Wives were to submit to their husbands in all things and husbands only get one wife. The result of this was wives got pregnant almost every time they were fertile until they died or reached menopause.
It also tended to keep the male population more docile by guarantying breeding rights to the majority of them.

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@garymrssn

All of this info came from my years as a tax pro. A lot of the families only had an unmarried mother and a bunch of children. In some, they were each from a different father. The more children, the more subsidy they received. Many were driving fairly new cars, nicer than I could afford. I know this sounds like I'm just bashing, but it is fact. Not lately, but when I first started, I saw a lot that had an ITIN because they were not qualified to get a Social Security card, but wanted to use a voter registration card for their ID.

Replies: garymrssn

garymrssn 🚫

@jimq2

I know this sounds like I'm just bashing, but it is fact.

It doesn't sound like bashing to me, just a different perspective. My comment was from a historically oriented view.

Mat Twassel 🚫

@WellAged

There's a good novel about population control called "Game Control" (if I remember right) by Lionel Shriver.

Mushroom 🚫

@WellAged

General rule of thumb, most authors in here pretty much avoid politics. After all, this is not a political forum, and doing so is a guaranteed way to lose readers.

I know there have been a few political stories posted here over the years, and most have been severely lambasted (and it did not help they were generally terrible).

The simple fact is, most have little to no interest in reading political stories, or in writing them.

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