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Lowest credible age of boy left while parents go on holiday?

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

Re-reading one of my stories, I can't decide about the best age of a boy. His parents go on holiday leaving him on his own in the house, with just a daily checkup from grandparents. Naturally he instantly throws a party. The flight is cancelled and the parents come home. Dad is enraged and being a strong character he confiscates all the kids' phones. It's slightly marginal for credibility.

I started with the boy being 17, then worried that 17-year-olds might not just give up their phones even to a powerful adult, so I was thinking about revising him down to 16.

Any thoughts about this please? 17 is better for being left but 16 for being intimidated, so which way to jump? It's set in the UK but I think it'd be the same thing in the US/Canada or anywhere. Any opinions appreciated!

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

There is not a fixed answer.

It's going to depend on a lot of factors.

The parent's child rearing philosophy

How long the parents will be gone. The answer could be significantly7 different for a weekend getaway vs a 3 week trip to the US/Canada (since you are set in the UK).

How far away are the parents.

Can they be reached in an emergency?

How quickly can they get home in the event of an emergency?

The law in the jurisdiction where they live.

That last factor matters a lot. It used to be the case in the US that the parents could leave any teenager on their own for a couple of days.

I don't have a handy cite for this, but I've read about cases of parents being threatened by CPS over 16-17 year olds left unsupervised for a few hours.

Then there is this:
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/consequences-of-leaving-a-child-home-alone.html

Some states provide a legal age to leave a child home alone. Most states however, do not. There are, however, some guidelines that have been provided by a collaboration of states and the Department of Health and Human Services to assist parents in making the decision to leave their child home alone. These guidelines include:

A child age 7 and under cannot be left alone at home for any period of the time. This also includes leaving the child unattended in the car, backyard, or playground. This is a vulnerable age and leaving them unattended would be a high risk to their safety;
A child ages 8 to 10 is permitted to be home alone only during daylight or early morning hours for no longer than 1 and ยฝ hours;
A child ages 11 to 12 can be left alone during the day for up to 3 hours but not late at night;
A child ages 13 to 15 is permitted to be left unsupervised, but not overnight; and
A child ages 16 to 17 can be left unsupervised for up to 2 days.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Thanks! Pretty much none of your highly relevant questions are answered in the story, as it stands! He is unruly, and the story suggests they might be trying 'treating him like an adult hoping to improve his behaviour' :)

Replies:   joyR  Dominions Son
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

He is unruly, and the story suggests they might be trying 'treating him like an adult hoping to improve his behaviour'

If he wants to be treated like an adult he must FIRST act like one.

That is rewarding good behaviour. Giving the reward first is basically bribery, as well as being stupid.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Giving the reward first is basically bribery, as well as being stupid.

So true, but more than a few of the latest generation of parents are that stupid.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Thanks, yes good point, and they are not stupid but assertive and successful. Tho also bold. Not illiberal or controlling, and not necessarily any good at parenting. In the story, their tactic doesn't work at all :)

So he takes all the kids' phones, except our hero girl's, who won't give it up.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

If he wants to be treated like an adult he must FIRST act like one.

Isn't there a chicken and egg aspect to it? To show that he can act like an adult is supposed to, the boy has to have the opportunity to show it.

AJ

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Isn't there a chicken and egg aspect to it?

No.

Who gets a bonus before a important project is started?
Who is awarded a medal before going into battle?
You reap rewards, you don't get them before the crop is sown.

An adolescent can remember how to act childish, but has to learn adult behaviour.

It's not a chicken and egg thing, it is actions and consequences.

Replies:   Dominions Son  palamedes
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

It's not a chicken and egg thing, it is actions and consequences.

Opportunity also matters. If you don't give your kid the opportunity to show adult behavior, they won't.

That said staying home alone for an extended period is not the opportunity to start with.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Opportunity also matters. If you don't give your kid the opportunity to show adult behavior, they won't.

That said staying home alone for an extended period is not the opportunity to start with.

Poppycock!

Showing it is easy. Clean your bedroom, do your washing, change your bedding, mow the lawn etc. Without being told, but because it needs doing.

Basically show self motivation and responsibility.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@joyR

Showing it is easy. Clean your bedroom, do your washing, change your bedding, mow the lawn etc. Without being told, but because it needs doing.

Basically show self motivation and responsibility.

I've known parents who wouldn't give teens even that much opportunity.

ETA: The thing is for kids to show adult behavior by those means, you have to stand back and let them do it even if things don't necessarily get done exactly when you wanted them done.

IF you stand over them and make them do it right this minute, because you want it done right now, they aren't learning what you think they are learning.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Clean your bedroom, do your washing, change your bedding, mow the lawn etc. Without being told, but because it needs doing.

There's a huge difference between those tasks and a boy being left unsupervised while the parents go on holiday.

AJ

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Not really. Throw in helping with the shopping and cooking an occasional meal and the kid will know enough be able to fend for himself in house. Boys used to go camping & hunting unsupervised at age 12 to 14.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Radagast

Boys used to go camping & hunting unsupervised at age 12 to 14.

Even in my time that never happened in the UK AFAIK.

I think in real life, responsibility would be bestowed incrementally. Leave the kid a couple of hours. If that works, leave them for half a day including a main meal. If that works, leave them for a whole day, then a weekend, then finally for the holiday.

Unless the parent is a single mother who will absolutely die if she doesn't go to Ibiza with her mates to top up her tan, in which case lock the kid in the house for the week and let it take its chances.

AJ

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

*shrug*
I knew kids who did. Scouts and cadets, also children of farmers who had moved to the city. They would get dropped off by their parents on a friday night and picked up on a Sunday afternoon. Not common, but it happened.
Apart from that I agree with your take on parenting. Incremental increases in expected and demonstrated responsibility is the way to go. I paid for my family's first TV with money earned at age 6 from my job washing a truck. I could walk under the trailer to do the job. So I probably have a lower starting age in mind than you do.

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

You reap rewards, you don't get them before the crop is sown.

There are times when the Government will pay you to not plant a crop. While this might not be as highly profitable it could be a reward as you don't need to buy the seed, fertilizer, fuel, labor, and equipment rental/repair as well as avoid any chance of lost or damaged crop.

And for those who wonder why the Government would pay to not have a crop planted the answer is -

NUMBER 2 (and yes this is actually the second reason though most always believe it to be the first)

Market stability - keeping the price of a crop at a rang where the farmer is able to sell at a price that is greater then the cost to grow.

AN THE NUMBER 1 reason

STORAGE - if the predicted amount of crop is greater then what we are able to safely sell and store then it becomes a hazard. Crops that are not safely stored will cause an explosion in the number of insects and rodents which then can and has caused an increase in diseases. Also crops left to rot can and will cause environmental and health problems threw the poisoning of the soil as well as surface and ground water.

Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

If he wants to be treated like an adult he must FIRST act like one.

There is also people, including (to a degree) kids/teens: "Living Up to Expectations" or "living Down to Expectations."

Not that I am likely to start (with a troublesome teen) by leaving them alone while I (or Spouse and I) left them alone while I/we went on vacation.

In the middle of 70's my mother was in the hospital for protracted periods; she died in the late 70's when I was 12. I was a single child, and I was often alone, prepared my own meals, and going to school, doing homework; while my father was working. Even when my father was home, he was often sleeping, due to working extended hours.

There were times that I would stay with neighbors, or with the family of friends, or with extended family for days or weeks. However, at least half-of the time I was a "Latch-key kid" and given considerable latitude.

I was allowed such a degree of independence, at least in part, because I had been taught to cook, clean, etc. starting around age 5. Also, from 1st Grade I was a "latch-key kid" from the end of school for about two hours a day until my mom returned from work. (From birth through kindergarten she was a "stay-at-home" mom.)

In the late 70's/early 80's many of the teens (12 or 13 and up) kids were either "latch-key" kids, or even "supervising" (babysitting) their younger siblings or relatives. Mostly just after school. However, sometimes if their was an athletic event, or such; "tweens"/teens might be left alone for a weekend while the rest of the family went on a weekend away. Usually, a neighbor or family member would "check-in" but it was no big deal.

Responsibility would be demonstrated in smaller things first. Then more latitude would be given.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

Thanks! Pretty much none of your highly relevant questions are answered in the story, as it stands! He is unruly, and the story suggests they might be trying 'treating him like an adult hoping to improve his behaviour' :)

Here's the really important factor.

Can your kids prepare a hot meal for themselves without adult supervision and without you worrying about them burning the house down?

If yes, you can leave them home alone provided the situation doesn't come to the attention of the authorities.

Make sure you have a trusted adult on call who is aware of the situation and can respond on a moment's notice in the event of an emergency.

If something happens that brings the cops and/or CPS to your house while you are gone and there isn't another adult present, you are screwed.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

A child age 7 and under cannot be left alone at home for any period of the time. This also includes leaving the child unattended in the car, backyard, or playground. This is a vulnerable age and leaving them unattended would be a high risk to their safety;

Crikey, how times have changed! No wonder the current generation is chock full of snowflakes.

AJ

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Crikey, how times have changed! No wonder the current generation is chock full of snowflakes.

Agreed. It's a recipe for 30 year olds still living at home with their parents.

If you want your kids to grow up to become well adjusted independent adults, you have to give them opportunities to be independent while they are still kids.

The good news is that people are starting to push back and have actually managed to change the laws in a few states.

https://www.freerangekids.com/

Replies:   maracorby
maracorby ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

All other things being equal (which, of course, they never are), you'd think that the vast increase in communications technology would give parents more confidence in leaving their kids alone than past generations. Smart phones with GPS, tracker apps, IMs and video calls; nanny cams; content monitoring and throttling on internet and TV services.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@maracorby

All other things being equal (which, of course, they never are), you'd think that the vast increase in communications technology would give parents more confidence in leaving their kids alone than past generations.

The problem is those things come with increased surveillance by the authorities.

The police have been called over a single mother leaving a child in a car while she runs into a store for five minutes.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

No wonder the current generation is chock full of snowflakes.

That's phrasing it mildly. I rode from Indiana to Florida more than once in the bed of our pickup truck with just a topper on it and a couple of lounge chair mattresses for comfort.

I didn't really get left at home alone overnight until I was over 13.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

When I was seven, I spent a week in the woods alone with a .410 shotgun.

My old man along with some elders visited at least once a day to check up me.

Child services of this age, would have taken me away from my parents for that, but it wasn't a big deal back then.

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

I suspect child services would have taken you away given any excuse. Child Abduction Services is the government arm for covert destruction of minority and working class families.
My ex had an aunt she has never seen. Her great aunt was unmarried and pregnant so the child was taken at birth. I also had a half Indian co-worker. The cheekbones and skin tone were the give away. He was told he was abandoned at the maternity hospital by his birth mother who didn't give a name when admitted. Unlikely.
I used to think things changed since the 50s & 60s. These days not so much.

Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Are you defining 'lowest' as the legal 'lowest' or the 'lowest' as in in the 'lowest' parents have been caught doing such a thing? Almost every week there are reports in UK (tabloid) press about parents and single parent's going off on holiday leaving their kids behind. Especially during the summer holidays when it's more expensive to go abroad with kids. In fact, I think there was one just the other day where the kids ages were in single digits.

Replies:   Pixy  awnlee jawking  Daydreamz
Pixy ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Pixy

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-leaves-two-young-kids-26015034

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/04/arizona-parents-left-11-year-old-alone/9087123002/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-58102792

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-57693036

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy

While he was Prime Minister, David Cameron left one of his young children at the pub. I don't know how many beers the youngster had while waiting for his parents to remember him ;-)

AJ

Replies:   samuelmichaels
samuelmichaels ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

While he was Prime Minister, David Cameron left one of his young children at the pub. I don't know how many beers the youngster had while waiting for his parents to remember him ;-)

"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them." -- Rodney Dangerfield

Replies:   ralord82276
ralord82276 ๐Ÿšซ

@samuelmichaels

* cue Sid from Ice Age * Sid:
They migrated without me. They do this every year.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy

It does happen doesn't it. The parents in this story tho are good guys, successful and admirable. So the son's age has to be pitched at something reasonable for being left. My first thought was 17, but then 16 would fit in a bit better later on. There's not really 'an answer' as @Dominions_Son pointed out, I'm just trying to gauge if 16 is received as credible really.

Replies:   joyR  awnlee jawking  Pixy
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

There's not really 'an answer' as @Dominions_Son pointed out, I'm just trying to gauge if 16 is received as credible really.

I think that depends upon the age and location of your readers. Some will shudder at the 17 year old, others will scoff at the parents waiting until he is 16.

Country versus city in part, but also culture to culture.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Yes so true. Honestly I have no idea of readers' ages on here!

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

What's the youngest age at which a person can drive a car on public roads in the culture of your story? If they're deemed old enough to drive a car responsibly, it's not too much of a stretch to deem them old enough to drive a house responsibly ;-)

AJ

Replies:   Daydreamz  Pixy
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Good point! And the answer is.... 17 :)

So perhaps I need to turn the question round? The boy's dominating father demands 17-year-olds hand over their phones! After catching them partying. Is this easier for suspending disbelief? The focus is already on the girl

Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

What's the youngest age at which a person can drive a car on public roads in the culture of your story

I was driving agricultural equipment on main roads at 14 and it was perfectly legal to do so.

Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

I have to admit that I am slightly biased. I was living alone and in a full time job (and then some- I also had an evening job at a local supermarket that would become a Tesco) at age 16, just days after my birthday. I used to walk home from school (alone), along a canal towpath before I was 10. I wasn't allowed in the house, instead, I had a key to a wooden garden shed in the garden for when it was raining, otherwise I was left alone to my own devices. Looking back, there was sooooo many things that could have gone wrong it's unbelievable, but that was the done thing in those days.

I doubt that the overall kid abduction/murder rate has changed much since then, but the reporting of it certainly has.

Age 16 is more than credible as I've known many colleagues that had similar stories, more than a few starting at 14. I also know a few that to all intents and purposes were fully fledged 'adults' at age 12 simply because they were full time carers for their singular disabled parent, and to all intents and purposes, clothed, fed, washed, not only themselves but their parent and younger siblings, along with running the household accounts, all on-top of their regular school work. Looking back with the wisdom of age, what they did was beyond, well I don't have the words for it really.

Nowadays there are awards in the UK for that, and some of the nominees stories are truly humbling, but they are only the tip of the iceberg of child carers in the UK. But I really doubt the UK is alone in that shame full aspect.

So to answer your question, no, 16 is not too young, if anything it's too old. Probably the best bet for the child to still be scared of their parent(s), would have them under the age or near to 14 in age. By 15 they have pretty much grown to almost full height and attitude and are not cowed in the slightest by parental concerns and are actively pushing against them.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy

Thanks for this insight, quite amazing to me as I had the most correct middle class upbringing going. Think I'll try the 16 then for the boy, thanks to everyone for your contributions ๐Ÿ‘

Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

There's a broader point here - it's not just the age at which you can leave a child alone unsupervised (which obviously varies by jurisdiction), but - as many people have noted - the shifting attitudes of society and parents.

The key is really risk-averse policies. This:

A child age 7 and under cannot be left alone at home for any period of the time. This also includes leaving the child unattended in the car, backyard, or playground.

isn't really about the welfare of the average child. I suspect every single person that I know who was a child in the 1960s and 1970s was left alone to play in the backyard at ages under 7. My kids played by themselves that way in the 2000s, for that matter, but we were unusual parents by that point, perhaps.

Somewhere between 7 and 9 I started routinely walking to elementary school by myself (about a 15-20 minute walk, crossing one major street - with no light or crosswalk - and several minor streets). No one thought that was odd or unsafe.

When on road trips I routinely laid down in the back seat (no seatbelt) and read. I can't read sitting up in a car due to motion sickness, but lying down, book held up, worked just fine.

Whether these things are "safe" depends on what you mean by "safe". If 100,000 children are allowed to do them, a few will be seriously injured or die. That will happen. A kid walking to school will be hit by a car, a kid playing unsupervised in the backyard will fall out of a tree or off the roof or antagonize the wrong snake or whatever, and the kid without a seat belt will be killed in an accident.

We are risk-averse and "death or serious injury" is an easy standard. Who wants their child dying or being seriously injured, right? So we put an ever-growing web of custom and regulation in place to preclude behaviors that have a measurable risk of problems.

The thing is, as a society we're lousy at measuring the long-term cost of these things. There was an article long, long ago (late 1990s, I think), in which someone said, "The number of children admitted to ERs with broken bones from falling out of trees is at an all-time low. This is a bad thing." The point was that we're putting so many guardrails on life that children aren't given a chance to learn how to assess and manage risk themselves, so they do incredibly stupid things once they're on their own. Obviously, if it wasn't safe, someone would've stopped them, right?

For the story, I'd say sixteen or the like is entirely plausible given the parents you're describing (as long as this is a parenting issue and not a police/CPS-response issue).

It depends on how you write the child, though. "Unruly" and "throws a party" doesn't mean "incompetent". My kids could've managed just fine at sixteen. They also quite possibly would've thrown a party and trashed the house. But many of their friends would've been utterly lost at sixteen.

My kids could cook (unsupervised) simple meals (grilled cheese, scrambled eggs, etc) at ten or so. Some of their friends can't cook at twenty.

Replies:   Daydreamz  DBActive
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

Thanks. Yes the boy doesn't get a lot of introduction, he's unruly, cocky, attractive and a player. He expects to be the one to take our girl's cherry, and so does everyone else. Then the fun in the story is that his parents do instead.

I suppose, thinking about the issues you and everyone have raised, I could rewrite it as him refusing to go, so they either leave him or lose the holiday.

DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I'm 70 so I grew up in the 50s and 60s. My daughter in the 80s and 90s.During vacations we used to disappear in the morning to come home for lunch. At night we would wait for our parents to call us home for dinner. After dinner we were out until dark.
I think the reasons for the changes aren't just over-protectiveness. We I was a kid there were lots o other kids in the neighborhood - it was rare that we weren't in groups of 3 or more. That isn't true in most places anymore. There just aren't as many kids around in most areas.
When I was young most mothers didn't work (mine did, but not in the summer) so there were always adults around that we could go to if there was a problem. That isn't true anymore so kids are not only unsupervised but have nowhere to go for help.
I work in the suburban town I grew up in and daily see kids walking to and from school - many obviously in the K-3 age brackets. I see kids playing outside, riding bicycles and just hanging around.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I grew up in a suburb of a major city. It wasn't unusual for kids that I knew (including myself), starting at eleven or twelve, to just take off on a bicycle in the morning and be back late in the afternoon. Where? Maybe a friend's house. Maybe the library. Maybe the mall. Maybe one of a couple of dozen stores. Plans might change.

Yes, there were other kids around, but much of the trip (perhaps five miles each way to the mall) would be with no one in particular around. Sure, someone might have seen nefarious activity - but someone might not have, too.

I agree about mothers staying home. On the other hand: cell phones. Most kids can dial 911 a lot faster than they can run to a helpful adult - mine knew the exact steps to cause a one-button emergency call within half an hour of getting their first phones, and we didn't even stress learning it. Ours were relatively late to cell phones, though (twelve when they got their first - very cheap, not smart - phones, and those were only handed out when we would be somewhere where it'd be advantageous for them to have one).

I'm glad you're seeing that where you live, and I hope it continues. We need more of that.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

I do cringe a little at the memory that beginning when I was 12 my parents let me and friends take a bus into NYC by ourselves. We gave my daughter a lot of freedom when she was young but never considered going that far.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

A 16 year old can rent and fly an airplane solo.
A 17 year old can fly with passengers.
An 18 year old can fly commercially.

Of course, the air is not full of idiots texting, so I guess it's safer than driving.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

Firing from hip with no addo I would say twelve.

That would sit about right with taking phone away too, but given a girl is mentioned we want to correct that up to at least fourteen, and sixteen, why not.

Sure, like said above a lot depends on context, from country and culture overall to area and family in question.

I used to play alone in forest before I started school, I believe. I couldn't wander too far as when grandmother yelled my name my answer should be heard, and I should appear in front of her in under a minute or two, or had to explain myself to angry questioning.

And when I started preschool, at five (nominally the autumn of the year I turned six), I was very surprised at some classmates unable to dress themselves. Yeah, the above turned out to not be rather typical, not in the city school I attended at least.

What was typical, starting with first grade I walked back to the flat alone, almost exactly a kilometer (0.62mi) of central city whichever way I would take, across at least three major streets and through one of two parks. For my case there was no public transportation options that would be actually helpful despite the very dense net, although I could possibly ride one stop on a trolley bus, or one stop on a bus along a different street, but would have to go out of my way for the stops and wait, and although dirt cheap back then it wasn't free.

I had my own set of keys and usually was alone in the flat until my older sister get home from school a bit later. I had to call mom at work to report arrival and sometimes an old neighbor lady would check on us semi randomly.

You may dismiss it as eighties in Soviet Union, but it is fairly typical to this day around here to see first graders (nominally at age seven) to navigate streets and public transportation unsupervised, with their book bags some "think about children" warriors claim are proportionally heavier than what soldiers carry. Then, we allegedly have a top place among safest countries in the world.

Also, I know twins who not too long ago went to live in their prestigious music school dorms at age ten. One of their classmates was riding a combination of train and at least two other types of public transportation for a ~80 mile commute to the same school, sometimes staying overnight in a city flat nobody was permanently living at the time. Those were perhaps extreme but not too atypical for context of that particular school and the ballet school it share said dorms witch.

Then, my country neighbor actually did burn her house down while her grandmother (the only adult expected home that day) was at work, girl was thirteen or fourteen I think. And everyone was shocked a girl of such an reasonable age could allow such a stupidity. There were no legal repercussions I'm aware of, but that was still in the last century, the land was still effectively lawless.

At sixteen, I went for a three day rafting trip, as it turned out with only my girlfriend and her girlfriend. And that was before mobile phones yet, too.

Then, I still live with my parents... :P

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@LupusDei

Then, I still live with my parents... :P

At some point for adults past 40 who are sharing a residence with their parents (not me personally) you have to ask, are you living at home with them or are they living with you?

Replies:   Grey Wolf  LupusDei
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I write (fairly sympathetically, overall) about a man in his fifties living with his seventy-year-old mother (who does NOT need him to care for her) in VoaT. They're based on real people I met in the 1980s.

I'm not sure that he ever lived (for any significant period of time) away from his mother. I'm really not sure of the details of the real people, though - I could easily have some things wrong (hence: based upon :)).

It takes all kinds. In general, though... get out and live your own life.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I write (fairly sympathetically, overall) about a man in his fifties living with his seventy-year-old mother (who does NOT need him to care for her) in VoaT.

It doesn't have to be about elder care. It could be simple economics. A retired parent on a fixed income living with a working child.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

In this case, I think they were simply best friends, pretty much.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I still live in the same, my childhood's forest, and shovel over 550m2 of snow, not counting the 300m driveway, but it hasn't been a farm since grandmother passed away. The eight feet long diner table now stands where pig pens used to be, and the flat screen tv on the chicken stand. Second floor had been built and rebuilt since, and one of the barns, and there's a new bathhouse. I'm the only son, there's no way I could move away without a betrayal even if I wanted to.

are you living at home with them or are they living with you?

If one wants to nitpick on this, it me living at the father's and mom is living with us. City flats had been sold and bought, but she would still rather call hers home, although, with the pandemic, I doubt there's dozen occasions someone had stayed overnight there in past two years. The other is currently "rented" to my nieces, since they started university.

Dicrostonyx ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

It's also worth noting that there might be a middle ground. There might be a neighbour or extended family member who can check in occasionally but isn't taking care of the protagonist per se.

For example, if the parents are going to be gone a week, there might be a university aged cousin who will come by on the weekend.

Also remember that standards of adulthood are very different in the UK than in the US. In the UK, teens are allowed to drink, but not buy, beer, wine, or cider with a meal at 16, then have full access to alcohol at 18. In the US, drinking age is 21 across the board, no exceptions. Age of consent differs too.

So while parents might certainly be upset with a teen who throws a big party without permission, a group of 16-18 year old teens drinking in the UK is very different culturally than the same party in the US.

Replies:   DBActive  Daydreamz
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dicrostonyx

You're making the same wrong assumption that many non-Americans make: thinging that these laws are "across the board" in the US. The age for purchase are all 21, but for consumption or possession the laws vary widely among the states. Same with age of consent,incest, public nudity to mention the ones people here are interested in

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

The age for purchase are all 21, but for consumption or possession the laws vary widely among the states.

I can't speak to the law in other states, but in my home state of Wisconsin, a minor can only legally possess or consume alcohol in the presence of a parent, legal guardian or spouse(provided the latter is over 21).

https://www.wisbar.org/NEWSPUBLICATIONS/WISCONSINLAWYER/PAGES/article.aspx?Volume=81&Issue=6&ArticleID=1605

Section 125.07. Wisconsin prohibits alcohol possession or consumption by people under age 21 unless they are with a parent, guardian, or spouse over age 21.7 Wis. Stat. section 125.07(1)(a) sets forth restrictions and prohibitions against providing alcohol to such unaccompanied underage persons.8 Foremost among these is that no person9 "may procure for, sell, dispense or give away any alcohol beverages to any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age."10

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

It's gotten more complicated in NJ with the legalization of marijuana. While, technically the possession and consumption of marijuana or alcohol under 21 is still is an offense, there are no penalties. All a cop is allowed to do is issue a warning with a copy to the parents. Needless to say, the open possession and consumption of both has skyrocketed. Since the intent is allowing kids to have access to marijuana, i expect that penalties on alcohol possession will be reinstated.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

In Wisconsin, it goes beyond police/arrest issues.

If there is underage drinking and a death results, not only can an adult who provided the alcohol be found civilly liable, but a property owner who did not provide the alcohol, but was aware of the under age drinking and took no action to stop it can be held liable.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

That's likely true most everywhere under traditional tort theories.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Dicrostonyx

It's also worth noting that there might be a middle ground. There might be a neighbour or extended family member who can check in occasionally but isn't taking care of the protagonist per se.

Thanks yes, this is the sweet spot I think. The story is set in the UK so actually it's not an issue if things are different in the US, tho personally I think our cultures have a lot more in common than not and I wouldn't be expecting much difference in parties and parenting - I mean more difference between individuals than societies, as we've been reading here!

Goldfisherman ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

I must have been brought up wrong or too liberally. Iam 78 now. When I was 3 and 4 years old I wet to a day care as both of my parents worked. My older sister was 8 years older than me. when I was 5, I came home from kindergarten (half day)at noon and had a key. it was a four block walk. I would walk to friends houses in the neighborhood and play. This included doctor with the similar aged girls. We were somewhat discrete though. My sister did not get out of school or home until about 4 PM. My parents got home about 5:30 or later. Clothing was not manditory around the house until high school.
Booze was never in the mix.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Goldfisherman

Sounds great! For myself I am 69 and my parents would never have left me on my own in the house at 16. That is about their sense of duty I would say, and their conventional view of the world. Tho I was allowed to go camping with friends at about 12. But I knew it wasn't safe to generalise from my one experience. Equally at 16 if a friend's ferocious father had demanded my phone I'd have meekly handed it over :)

steeltiger ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Depends on the kid, the parents, time away, where they live & when it's happening. For example, my mother & her second husband would take a weekend away 4 or 5 times a year, back in the mid-1980's. I was 12 the first time & was left to myself from Friday after school until they came home Sunday evening.
That was unusual but not unheard-of in that era. Today the patents would be in jail, the kid in services & CPS would have lawyers involved.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@steeltiger

The issue would be the same now as then: if there was a bad incident authorities would become involved. If nothing happened to you nobody would care.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

If nothing happened to you nobody would care.

You need just one busybody who informs the authorities and depending on their workload they may interfere, even when they have to delay acting in other known critical cases.

HM.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@helmut_meukel

What would be the basis for authorities getting involved? A 6 year old - yes. A 12 year old no.
And I have been involved in dozens of abuse and neglect cases.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Nowadays with the infantilization of teens in some areas I can see parents being charged with neglect/abuse for not watching their kid who will turn 18 in a matter of a handful of days.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@AmigaClone

Not going to happen. When you do find things like that is when children are left in houses without food, locked inside, chained, ill, without heat, without running water, without clothing. Those things all happen and are what bring charges.

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

News Headline -

Single Mom Of 5 Faces Jail Time For Leaving 4-Year-Old With Her 14-Year-Old To Go To Work.

===========================
As reported Here and many other places

https://littlethings.com/lifestyle/georgia-mom-kids-babysit

===================

-article-

A single mother of five from Georgia is facing jail time for something that many parents are guilty of.

Melissa Henderson needed to go to work. Her youngest son, Thaddeus, was in day care, but his day care was closed for a COVID-19-related reason. After exhausting all her other options, Melissa asked her oldest child, her nearly 15-year-old daughter, to babysit her younger sibling while mom was at work.

The 14-year-old was working on schoolwork when the 4-year-old managed to slip outside of the house. He was playing outside for about 15 minutes before Melissa's daughter brought him inside. What she didn't know was that during that time, a neighbor had seen the little boy outside alone and called 911.

There were no further incidents that day, but two weeks later, police came to the family's home. Melissa was handcuffed and arrested for criminal reckless conduct.

"It was the most embarrassing and humiliating day, honestly, of my life," she told Inside Edition.

The police report about the incident outlines some of what could have happened to the little boy in his time outside alone, including being "kidnapped, run over or bitten by a venomous snake." Many people believe this to be an overreaction, however. If convicted, Melissa faces one year in jail and $1,000 in fines.

"Thirteen years old and older can be left alone and take care of others for up to 12 hours," attorney David DeLugas said of the matter.

The Red Cross also offers babysitting classes for children as young at 11 years old.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@palamedes

I seriously question the veracity of that story. It's appearing two years after the alleged incident and doesn't appear in news site.

Replies:   irvmull  palamedes
irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I seriously question the veracity of that story. It's appearing two years after the alleged incident and doesn't appear in news site.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10491555/Single-mother-faces-year-prison-letting-14-year-old-babysit-four-year-old-sibling.html

Note also that this is in what is probably the safest part of GA, not near a highway or anything. See the photos.

https://reason.com/2022/02/08/melissa-henderson-babysit-covid-arrest-blairsville/

BTW: Ga. law specifies:

Children thirteen years and older, who are at an adequate level of maturity, may be
left alone and may perform the role of babysitter, as authorized by the parent, for up
to twelve hours.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

I said a news site - neither one you post qualifies. They both are aggregating sites.

The is no Georgia law or regulation on babysitting. What you post is merely a guideline issued by the child protection agency.

Replies:   Dominions Son  palamedes
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I said a news site - neither one you post qualifies.

Actually, yes, the first one qualifies. The Daily Mail is a British newspaper. It goes all the way back to 1896.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I said a news site

The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/magazine/a-mother-in-jail-for-helping-her-daughter-have-an-abortion.html

MSN (ok maybe not the best)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/accused-mom-faces-year-in-jail-for-letting-14-year-old-daughter-babysit-her-brother/vp-AATFBU5

The Sun (just a little rag paper from the UK)

https://www.the-sun.com/news/4645636/facing-jail-daughter-look-after-siblings-work/

Independent (another UK paper)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/melissa-henderson-georgia-arrest-daycare-covid-b2011656.html

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@palamedes

The NYT link is a case where the mother illegally supplied illegally obtained drug in a medically unsafe manner. She should be charged. She could have taken the kid to Planned Parenthood rather than risking the child's health.

As to the Melissa Henderson case - there is nothing in these links about the background of the case. Prosecutions of these type of offenses is rare unless there are serious allegations. This may have happened repeatedly - she admits to a prior incident when the 4 year old was found wandering outside. Someone must have reported it before and she was given a warning not to let the kid wander by himself. Her attorney runs an advocacy organization on this issue. Someone must have been concerned enough to report this.

This case is not a felony and the court records are not online, but she does have what appears to be a fairly contentious divorce on record. Given that I wouldn't be surprised that the long gap between the incident and the arrest was caused by the father pressuring for action on the case.

Let me ask - if you repeatedly saw a four year old wandering around by himself in your neighborhood would you be concerned?

Replies:   palamedes
palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Let me ask - if you repeatedly saw a four year old wandering around by himself in your neighborhood would you be concerned?

Yes, I would do something but unlike that neighbor who only called the cops and nothing more I would have went outside to see what was going on and to await for police which by the time police responded the daughter had all ready returned her brother back to his own home.

The thing is that the mother or her daughter isn't being charged with the 4 year old who only went next door to play with his friend. The mother is being charged with leaving her kids in the care of her 14 year old daughter a minor.

If the mother is found guilty then this would set a precedent where parent could not leave their children in the care of a babysitter under the age of 18 because that is what the mother is being charged with endangering her children by leaving them in the care of a minor

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@palamedes

No. The mother is being charged with neglect of the 4 year old. And where do you get that he only went next door to play with a friend?
You are missing the fact that this happened repeatedly.

Replies:   Dominions Son  palamedes
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

No. The mother is being charged with neglect of the 4 year old.

That's not what has been reported.

From the Daily Mail article linked above:

Melissa Henderson, a single mother-of-five, is charged with criminal reckless conduct after she left her children under the care of her 14-year-old

Note that the charge is criminal reckless conduct, not child neglect.

Have you personally read the charge sheet that you would know differently?

If so, perhaps you could provide a link to them.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

No. Georgia has no law specifically involving neglect or endangerment of a child. I assume this is the charge brought:
"(b) A person who causes bodily harm to or endangers the bodily safety of another person by consciously disregarding a substantial and unjustifiable risk that his act or omission will cause harm or endanger the safety of the other person and the disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care which a reasonable person would exercise in the situation is guilty of a misdemeanor."
The basis for the charge would be neglect of the 4 year old.
If the police were called, knowing that it wasn't the first incident, they are required to report this matter to the child protection agency.

The problem isn't that she left the child in the care of a 14 year old or a 12 year old. It is that she left the child with a 14 year old who was not responsible enough to watch the kid and she knew it since the same thing had happened before.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

No. Georgia has no law specifically involving neglect or endangerment of a child. I assume this is the charge brought:

The key work there is that you are assuming. You actually have zero actual knowledge of what the real problem is.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I know that she is not charged with a felony. I know that this is the Georgia statute used by prosecutors to charge child neglect cases. It is also the statute name cited in the articles. I also know that this is not the first time the same child was allowed to wander unsupervised.
If this was the first time this had happened I would agree that charging her is wrong but the same thing happened before and she did nothing to prevent it from reoccurring.

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

No. The mother is being charged with neglect of the 4 year old. And where do you get that he only went next door to play with a friend?
You are missing the fact that this happened repeatedly.

The boy going next door to play with a friend was stated in the news and on the police report.

As for happening repeatedly it reported to have happened only once before and the was 1 year prior to this time.

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I seriously question the veracity of that story. It's appearing two years after the alleged incident and doesn't appear in news site.

I don't see how you can not find it in the news as it is every where. As to the two years well the American Courts system is not always the fastest moving and with Covid thing have become even worse as cases just keep getting shelved to a later date.

But if you want Steve Lehto a lawyer who runs a YouTube channel talks about it here even.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrkLwOxychA

Michael Loucks ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Not going to happen.

Happens all the time in the US. Suddenly, Family Services has decided that babysitting is now the sole province of adults, rather than teenage girls as it was for most of the 20th century.

As @AmigaClone says, it's a product of the infantilization of teens, the main theme of my AWLL series.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Michael Loucks

It simply does not happen often. Sure it happens occasionally but very, very infrequently.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

It simply does not happen often. Sure it happens occasionally but very, very infrequently.

Given I'm in IL, I'll stick to IL:

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/home-alone-unattended-13-year-old-police-can-arrest-the-parents-in-illinois/

IL law is the strictest in the nation.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Michael Loucks

The link you provided lists a few cases where intervention may have been unwarranted - the reason these are news are because these type of unwarranted investigations take place so rarely. They are made in response to complaints - would you prefer that the state ignore complaints of potential child abuse.
The statute sets the criteria to be followed if there is a claim of neglect:
(d) any minor under the age of 14 years whose parent

or other person responsible for the minor's welfare leaves the minor without supervision for an unreasonable period of time without regard for the mental or physical health, safety, or welfare of that minor; or
(e) any minor who has been provided with interim

crisis intervention services under Section 3-5 of this Act and whose parent, guardian, or custodian refuses to permit the minor to return home unless the minor is an immediate physical danger to himself, herself, or others living in the home.
Whether the minor was left without regard for the mental or physical health, safety, or welfare of that minor or the period of time was unreasonable shall be determined by considering the following factors, including but not limited to:
(1) the age of the minor;
(2) the number of minors left at the location;
(3) special needs of the minor, including whether the
minor is a person with a physical or mental disability, or otherwise in need of ongoing prescribed medical treatment such as periodic doses of insulin or other medications;
(4) the duration of time in which the minor was left

without supervision;
(5) the condition and location of the place where the

minor was left without supervision;
(6) the time of day or night when the minor was left

without supervision;
(7) the weather conditions, including whether the

minor was left in a location with adequate protection from the natural elements such as adequate heat or light;
(8) the location of the parent or guardian at the

time the minor was left without supervision, the physical distance the minor was from the parent or guardian at the time the minor was without supervision;
(9) whether the minor's movement was restricted, or

the minor was otherwise locked within a room or other structure;
(10) whether the minor was given a phone number of a

person or location to call in the event of an emergency and whether the minor was capable of making an emergency call;
(11) whether there was food and other provision left

for the minor;
(12) whether any of the conduct is attributable to

economic hardship or illness and the parent, guardian or other person having physical custody or control of the child made a good faith effort to provide for the health and safety of the minor;
(13) the age and physical and mental capabilities of

the person or persons who provided supervision for the minor;
(14) whether the minor was left under the supervision

of another person;
(15) any other factor that would endanger the health

and safety of that particular minor.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

They are made in response to complaints - would you prefer that the state ignore complaints of potential child abuse.

If the receive complaints that are invalid on their face (reporting things that are clearly not abuse), yes, they ought to ignore those complaints.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

How are they to determine if the complaint is invalid without investigation?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

How are they to determine if the complaint is invalid without investigation?

The complaint fails to allege anything that would amount to a violation of the law even assuming all the facts in the complaint are true.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

But in this case there is a violation alleged in the complaint.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

https://patch.com/illinois/across-il/illinois-house-approves-lowering-home-alone-law-age-12

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/when-is-leaving-a-child-at-home-alone-illegal.html

Although some states specify an age appropriate for legally leaving the child home alone. Most states do not expressly state an age. Therefore, states in collaboration with the Department of Health and Human Services have formulated some guidelines to assist parents who are making this decision:

Ages 7 and under: Cannot be left alone at home during any period of the time. This includes leaving them unattended in the cars, backyards and playgrounds. This is a vulnerable age and their would be a high risk to their safety;
Ages 8 to 10: are permitted to be home alone only during daylight and early morning hours for no later than 1 and ยฝ hours;
Ages 11 to 12: can be left alone during the day for up to 3 hours but not late at night;
Ages 13 to 15: are permitted to be left unsupervised, but not overnight and;
Ages 16 to 17: can be left unsupervised for up to 2 days.

solreader50 ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

The British National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) offers the following advice.

The NSPCC, which publishes a home alone guide, advises:

* Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone

* Children under the age of 12 are rarely mature enough to cope in an emergency, and should not be left at home alone for a long period of time

* Children under the age of 16 should not be left alone overnight

* Parents and carers can be prosecuted for neglect if it is judged that they placed a child at risk by leaving them at home alone

* A child should never be left at home alone if they do not feel comfortable with it, regardless of their age

* If a child has additional needs, these should be considered when leaving them at home alone or with an older sibling

* When leaving a younger child with an older sibling, think about what may happen if they were to have a falling out - would they both be safe?

tenyari ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

In 2022 if your kid is under the age of 35 Social Services will greet you at the door when you get home.

But "back in my day" when I was about 5 parents just tossed out the front door with a dollar and said 'don't come back until you've got at least $2.'" :)

Of course these days the biggest threat to 'little Sally' is some perv flashing himself. Back in my day my home town's police were tracking 3 different serial killers and a series of murders they were trying to decide meant 'unrelated' or 'serial killers 4 and 5'. And that was just from one summer. But folks still think it was 'safer back then'.

Put seriously.

Your setting both in time and location matters a lot here.

In 2022 in the USA, people "freak out" if anyone under 18 is alone in public. It's really weird. I have friends who organize "playdates" for their teenagers and I'm just sitting there thinking "no wonder Gen-Z is so weird if they've never even seen the sky..."

In the 1980s, there was a whole thing called "latchkey kids" - that was basically a thing about how society was just noticing that kids were often alone while parents were at work.

Back then it was common to see kids hanging out alone or in 'roving packs' on the streets.

My "give em a dollar and toss em out" joke was that, but I did live in one place in '83 where one of the neighbors would just toss their child that was still in a diaper out the door and let them back in some hours later. But that would have gotten 'child services' even back then if we other kids had known we could report it.

It used to be common to let kids fly alone on planes. I think the age limit was 12, unlike the '47' it is now. :)

I'm pretty sure the UK, US, and Canada all have their own takes on this subject. They might seem like similar countries and in many ways they are - but this feels like a topic they would not see eye to eye on.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@tenyari

In the 1980s, there was a whole thing called "latchkey kids" - that was basically a thing about how society was just noticing that kids were often alone while parents were at work.

I was one of those latchkey kids in the late 70s and 80s.

solreader50 ๐Ÿšซ

@tenyari

Of course these days the biggest threat to 'little Sally' is some perv flashing himself.

This is BS. The biggest threat to 'little Sally' is, and has been since statistics were gathered, Little Sally's brother or Uncle or cousin or Father. The whole idea of never talk to a stranger is fairly wrong. Never talk to your male family members is better advice.

As little Sally gets older the danger also comes from boyfriend or friend of boyfriend. In the majority of cases of sexual assault the perp is previously know to the victim.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Marius-6
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@solreader50

The biggest threat to 'little Sally' is, and has been since statistics were gathered, Little Sally's brother or Uncle or cousin or Father.

I'd like to see that statistic rebased to take into account the amount of time the abuser spent in daily contact with 'little Sally'.

AJ

Marius-6 ๐Ÿšซ

@solreader50

The biggest threat to 'little Sally' is, and has been since statistics were gathered, Little Sally's brother or Uncle or cousin or Father. The whole idea of never talk to a stranger is fairly wrong. Never talk to your male family members is better advice.

A significantly more common Threat is "The Baby Momma's" "Boyfriend" or a Step-Father!

Yes, uncles, brothers, fathers, and other family members (not just males) do sometimes sexually, and in otherwise physically, mentally, and emotionally abuse both boys and girls. Statistically it is disturbingly common for Step-Dads, and even more so "Boyfriends" to abuse teen and pre-teen children.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

What Age Should You Start Solo Traveling?

The minimum age for embarking on a solo trip should be 18 years old. Before you turn 18, you don't have the maturity or independence necessary to be completely alone for an extended period of time.

Note the above refers to taking a vacation trip, mostly using public transportation. Meanwhile, in Canada you can "solo" - as in, fly your own airplane all by yourself - at age 14.

Lots of screwy reasoning on this subject, isn't there?

Replies:   Dominions Son  DBActive
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

Lots of screwy reasoning on this subject, isn't there?

What gives you that idea?

I mean you can vote and join the military at 18, but you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol until you are 21. That makes total sense, doesn't it?

Replies:   tenyari  solreader50
tenyari ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I mean you can vote and join the military at 18, but you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol until you are 21. That makes total sense, doesn't it?

When you consider the historical context yes. On it's own no.

The military draft was at 18. I believe people used to be able to enlist even younger around a century ago.

Voting got lowered to 18 only after mass protests during the Vietnam War.

It's an extreme example of 'government action without representation' when the powers that be are sending people off to war who are not allowed to vote those powers out.

Other things were not involved in those protests because the boomers were mostly concerned about shipped off and forced to kill people that only wanted to end colonialism and have their own country (the Communism was just a side effect of who was willing to pay the bill - both sides of the cold war repeatedly funded/backed 'wars of anti-colonialism' as proxies for their agendas), without having any say in the matter.

I'm sure if they were forcing Boomers to die in weird experiments, and the only way to live was a cigarette and a beer, then the ages of those would have gone down too.

(Not slamming Boomers here - just noting that they protested for a specific reason, and the vote age was the result they got. They'd have preferred the war to end sooner. They did also get a semi-end to the draft.)

If you expand this out you can see a LOT of ages have their weird numbers due to situations like this. Rewind the clock back a little over 100 years and you will see pretty much no age limits on labor or taking advantage of children - sexually or otherwise.

Basically a time when "father knows best" was the law - until you married out of the family. "Father" more or less owned his wives and children as chattel property. And "The boss at work" owned father in much the same way.

Court cases, protests, and laws change things one at a time. Thus the oddball inconsistencies.

solreader50 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I mean you can vote and join the military at 18, but you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol until you are 21. That makes total sense, doesn't it?

You need to preface your statement with "In the USA,". Lots of other countries have more logical and sensible ages for the various responsibilities.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@solreader50

Lots of other countries have more logical and sensible ages for the various responsibilities.

That they are different does not mean they are more logical or sensible.

DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

The two situations aren't comparable. To travel alone you have the have the ability to do things like rent a place to sleep and authorize your own medical treatment. You will have a hard time (in the US) doing either of those things under the age of majority.
I you are just speaking of flying alone on an airline - none that I know of require minors to be escorted over the age of 14 and some have lower age cutoffs.

Replies:   Freyrs_stories  irvmull
Freyrs_stories ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@DBActive

Hmm guess I must be an odd one out. I was barely 12 when I was flying international unaccompanied in any way shape or form, my kid sister in tow. To make this more interesting it was to non-English speaking companies where you were exceptionally lucky to see anything in English even at the international terminal. form memory there where two English signs, Customs and baggage claim. in what on a world scale would be a medium / large airport. ~350 flights landings / takeoffs a day + about 30 years ago. another similar trip 4 years longer was much easier as that was into an airport with heavy tourist traffic.

On one trip there was another child who had lost his passport from memory at some point and was accosted by police armed with sub-machine guns, steel helmets the whole nine yards. My local language was spotty at best so I'm not sure what ever happened to him. That said he was accompanied by a stewardess. We would of been similar ages. he might of been 1 or 2 years younger than me.

I guess I had the advantage that I'd been routinely making trips by myself in excess of 300 Mi from the age of about 8 or 9, maybe 10 at the absolute oldest. It was actually a fair while ago and I don't quite remember the exact period the trips took place. it was over about 12-18 months, traveling every 6-8 weeks. there was another period when I was 11 but that was only 2 or 4 trips.

Keep in mind with all this, I've always been very self reliant for my age. by 6 I could change a spare on a car (watching me literally jumping up and down on the wheel brace always had my mother in hysterics). by 7 I could fix a flat on a bicycle the proper way i.e. patching it using a sink full of water to find the leaks, pulling the wheel off and resetting the chain tension right on a single speed. by 8 set tack on a horse and ride normally or bareback. by 9 I could rebuild the carby on a 4-stroke mower. abseil and navigate by compass by 12. sail a dingy and install computer hardware (it was much more involved back then) by 14 by 17 scuba dive proficiently with better air usage than experienced diver/instructors maybe half my size.

Just wondering if anyone else could do anything much younger than the norm?

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@DBActive

There is much more responsibility required of a person renting a room at the Motel 6 than a person piloting a $30,000 aircraft.

I'm sure this makes sense somehow. To someone.

Anyway, last time I was in a nudie bar in the Yukon, there were a couple of kids who didn't appear to be over 12 or 13 enjoying the view. Probably did them no lasting harm.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

Again, not comparable situations. There's no law restricting a hotel from renting to a ten year old:it's their business decision not to do it.

Replies:   Dominions Son  palamedes
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@DBActive

There's no law restricting a hotel from renting to a ten year old:it's their business decision not to do it.

There's the small problem that the check in creates a contract between the guest and the hotel and a contract with a 10 year old can't be legally enforced by the hotel.

Contracts with minors are risky because they are inherently one sided. The minor can get the contract enforced if they chose to, but the other party can not legally enforce the contract against the minor if the minor doesn't perform.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I know. Same with anyone under 18.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

I know. Same with anyone under 18.

That would be the definition of minor.

Replies:   irvmull
irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

https://www.rocketlawyer.com/business-and-contracts/business-operations/contract-management/legal-guide/can-a-minor-sign-a-contract

Can a minor sign a contract, and if so, would it be enforceable?

Minors can and do sign and enter into many types of contracts, such as for summer jobs, acting gigs, or car purchases. Whether these contracts are enforceable, though, is not as straightforward. Because minors don't have legal capacity as adults, the rules for how certain types of contracts are enforced differ quite a bit from contracts between adults.

In many cases, minors can't be held to the terms of a contract until they reach the age of majority. In other words, a minor has the right to opt out of a contract, even if the other party is an adult and is bound by the terms. Therefore, from the minor's perspective, a contract in most instances is a good faith agreement but not a legally enforceable one.
Which kinds of contracts with minors are enforceable?

Contracts for certain items considered essential to a minor's well-being are legally enforceable, meaning the minor cannot simply opt out of them. Some of these items (referred to as "necessaries") are:

Food
Clothing
Shelter
Transportation
Education

For instance, let's say a 17-year-old enrolls in college and prepays for the first semester. He changes his mind before the first class and tries to recoup his payment, arguing that he did not have the legal capacity to enroll in the first place. Since education often is on the list of necessaries, depending on the state, the minor may not be able to void the contract.

Contracts with minors may also be enforceable when they involve:

Taxes
Bank regulations
Civil and criminal penalties
Military service

palamedes ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Again, not comparable situations. There's no law restricting a hotel from renting to a ten year old:it's their business decision not to do it.

When renting a room you are entering into a contract and the law says you must be of 18 years of age to leally enter into a contract. Sure if a hotel/motel can choose to rent to a minor but then they would not be able to hold the minor responsible if they then trashed to room.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@palamedes

That isn't correct.

While contracts entered into by minors are generally not enforceable, they can be held responsible for torts (basically intentional or negligent acts that caused damage to persons or property.)

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

they can be held responsible for torts.

If they do it again, its a re-tort.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Technically, is minus nine-ish months feasible?
Parent(s) jet off on holiday while mum's eggs are being fertilised in a test tube?

AJ

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

Same with age of consent,incest, public nudity

I first read that to mean there are minimum ages for incest and public nudity ;-)

I guess once post-menopausal, the biological taboo against incest is invalid ;-)

AJ

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Actually there is a minimum age for incest in two states - NJ (18) and Rhode Island (16) do not prohibit adult incest.

The point I was making is that the legal definition of incest varies from state to state with different relationships being prohibited. It's the same with definition of indecent exposure crimes.

Replies:   Remus2  awnlee jawking
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Actually there is a minimum age for incest in two states - NJ and Rhode Island do not prohibit adult incest.

Both of which residents regularly make iincest jokes about the south.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

Actually there is a minimum age for incest in two states - NJ and Rhode Island do not prohibit adult incest.

Both of which residents regularly make iincest jokes about the south.

Here in the UK we joke about those who live in Norfolk. And the royal family, obviously ;-)

AJ

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Here in the UK we joke about those who live in Norfolk.

Nobody in Norfolk marries a virgin. If she's not good enough for her own family, she's not good enough for you.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Nobody in Norfolk marries a virgin.

In the USA, There is a city called Norfolk in the state of Virginia. Virgin(ia) Norfolks are common. However the sailors who are stationed there in the Navy do their best to make sure they are younger than most girls.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@richardshagrin

However the sailors who are stationed there in the Navy do their best to make sure they are younger than most girls.

ie younger than the Norfolk broads ;-)

AJ

Replies:   Pixy  Radagast
Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

I'll give you that, as it was actually quite witty, though I think it would sail by most on here...

Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Younger than five centuries still suggests a lot of sag and wrinkles. "I don't look a day over 100!"

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Actually there is a minimum age for incest in two states - NJ and Rhode Island do not prohibit adult incest.

Wow, I wasn't expecting that. Thank you.

AJ

Dicrostonyx ๐Ÿšซ

I wasn't intending to imply that everything was the same across the US. Of course details differ from state to state.

My point was that differences in culture aren't just a matter of taking out one age and substituting another. The UK, in general, treats teens differently than the US does -- again in general. It's not just a matter of drinking or sex, it's everything.

In the US, under-18s generally have to stay in school or be considered truant, but in the UK students take their vocational exams (A levels & O levels) at 16. So by 17 a non-university-attending teen can have a full time job; school in the 16-18 range is college prep.

Again, this is an oversimplification and not intended to apply to everyone, everywhere, just an example of how the cultures differ in their treatment of teens. You can't just change a couple of ages and place names and expect the same story to make sense.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dicrostonyx

In the US, under-18s generally have to stay in school or be considered truant, but in the UK students take their vocational exams (A levels & O levels) at 16. So by 17 a non-university-attending teen can have a full time job;

You're right that you are over simplifying and generalizing. Again, it true that the age is 18 in some states, not in others and all have exceptions to the age requirement. The ones that drop out generally work - in legal or illegal occupations.

Replies:   solreader50
solreader50 ๐Ÿšซ

@DBActive

Speaking of the UK and Germany where I have some experience, the non-academically inclined can leave school at 16 and enter an apprenticeship which is a hybrid of work, training, and further education. Especially in Germany, it is common to persue this course of action through to becoming a Master craftsman which is considered the equivalent of a univeristy Masters degree.

In parts of both countries you can vote at 16. In the UK you can enter military service at 16 but you will not be sent into combat until you are 18.

In Germany you can legally drink beer or wine from 14 if you are accompanied by a "custodial" adult; from 16 you can legally drink beer or wine; and from 18 you can drink anything.

Replies:   Pixy
Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@solreader50

UK you can enter military service at 16

It's actually 12 (cadets). Where you do pretty much everything an adult soldier does, with the exception of your rifle, which is a modified version that is restricted to single shot .22 rounds rather than a semi automatic firing 5.56 rounds.

Oh, and you can't fire at the usual figure eight target on ranges as it's a human silhouette, you have to use one displaying kittens, or something, instead...

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

A minor not being able to void a contract and recoup money already paid is a different issue than the non-minor party enforcing the contract against the minor if. for example. there is additional money to be paid.

The link doesn't really cover what happens if the minor walks away without paying the second semester fees.

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