Forum: Author Hangout

Physical Description of Characters

PotomacBob 🚫

Many stories on SOL start with a physical description of the main character. How important in a story are physical descriptions of characters? Just thinking about my own favorite stories on SOL, I remember other things about characters (intelligence, likeability, attitude), I remember events in the stories, but I cannot remember the physical description of even one of my favorite characters beyond male or female. I remember that there was a girl - i think in a Michael Loucks story - who had memorable red pubic hair, but I don't remember the name of the character or anything else about her - not even sure it was a Michael Loucks story.
Nevertheless, I suspect that at the time I read the stories, those physical descriptions may have been important to me. And I suspect that, from the author's viewpoint, it is important to know what your characters look like.
Has anybody tried writing a story WITHOUT describing any of the characters?

Replies: Ernest Bywater richardshagrin Dominions Son StarFleet Carl Grey Wolf Dominions Son irvmull QM Uther Pendragon Mushroom Paladin_HGWT stitchescl JoeBobMack

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

In general, most people like a basic description of characters as that makes it easier for them to picture the story in their mind. In my stories the descriptions of characters have gone from very detailed to none at all for some characters as, to me, it depends on what is needed to be described for the story.

How a reader will reconstruct a scene may depend on how well the character is described as a fight scene involving a main character built like Arnold Schwarzenegger would be written different to the same scene with a main character built like Rick Moranis.

While some authors insist on detailing the characters enough you could paint a picture form it, I prefer to give general descriptions and let the reader fill in the details, but I do vary the amount of detail to suit what i want for that character in that story. Often, minor characters don't get described at all as it doesn't matter to the story.

Replies: PotomacBob

PotomacBob 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

In general, most people like a basic description of characters as that makes it easier for them to picture the story in their mind.

Just curious. How do you know what most people like? A guess or do you actually have data?

Replies: Ernest Bywater Switch Blayde

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

Just curious. How do you know what most people like? A guess or do you actually have data?

That depends on what you call 'actual data.' Most of it is from empirical evidence I've collected personally.

I'm 67 years of age and have been an avid reader all of my life. I also used to spend a lot of time as a youngster listening to my mother's 'talking books for the blind' as I was the youngest child and the designated 'book turner' and her 'seeing eye human.' All that meant from an early age I was listening too advanced books and talking about them with mum before I could read. Later in life I spoke with people about books and what they liked and didn't like.

Based on what I learned from others over the years I found:

(a). A small percentage of people want description of the main characters you can use to make a drawing of and any competent artist will give you the same result.

(b). A small percentage of people don't want any descriptions at all, this is so they can create their own.

(c). Most people want a reasonable description so they can picture the character to make a mental image of the story scenes.

In this third group some people want descriptions of every character, and some people want description of only the main characters. Most preferred a basic description so they could add some features of their own to personalize the image.

...............

Over time I've found stories with light descriptions are usually better received than those with detailed descriptions.

Along with all of that I've also found there are times when you have to list certain aspects of a character in their description as it can affect the plot. The main character's basic height can affect how the plot goes as it also affects the way some scenes go.

...........

I don't think I've seen any worthwhile and validated surveys on this subject. maybe it's an open area for someone's thesis.

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Over time I've found stories with light descriptions are usually better received than those with detailed descriptions.

As a reader I can confirm this. Extensive descriptions rarely add to the story. Even worse are the descriptions like "looks like [insert movie star]". Just a minimal description and only a little more if it's necessary for the story.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Keet

As a reader I can confirm this. Extensive descriptions rarely add to the story.

Then we get into arguments over what constitutes extensive.

My experience as a reader is different. While recognizing that there is a point where it becomes too much and detracts from the story, I find that too little description equally detracts from the story.

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

My experience as a reader is different. While recognizing that there is a point where it becomes too much and detracts from the story, I find that too little description equally detracts from the story.

Maybe I should have said "too much" instead of "extensive". A good author describes characters just enough for the reader to get an impression with which he can form an image. I think the most difficult thing for an author is that every character requires a different level of description, depending on the relevance for the story. Some characters need little or no description at all, sometimes not even a name, others need more. For most characters it's often more important to have a description of their behavior and the reasons for how they act than about how they look or dress.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Keet

Maybe I should have said "too much" instead of "extensive".

I wouldn't consider "too much" all that much better.

Again, "too much" is a subjective criteria that will differ from reader to reader. What you consider too much and what I consider too much might be significantly different. Without detailed discussion, we have no basis to compare.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

I dipped into a relatively new serial. The premise is good and I'm going to continue reading it as it appears, but the author goes over the top with elaborate descriptions for characters and locations that will apparently never be referenced again.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

How do you know what most people like? A guess or do you actually have data?

Gotham Writers, who has been teaching writing for twenty years, has an article on what fiction readers want. Under "Visible characters and settings" it says:

Some hope to see people and places they're reading about. They want the description to be so captivating that they feel as though they are seeing the whole ensemble and locale.

I like that.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Some hope to see people and places they're reading about. They want the description to be so captivating that they feel as though they are seeing the whole ensemble and locale.

That was the approach adopted by writers in the 19th century when people didn't travel much and had no idea of what locations mentioned in stories were actually like.

That became deprecated in the 20th century when people became more mobile and it was relatively rare for people in the UK, for example, to have never visited London.

I'd be surprised if there was a resurgence in the 21st century especially with the internet and on-line photos and videos.

I'll grant an exemption for science fiction and fantasy where locations are purely fictitious and don't follow our laws of science.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Dominions Son Switch Blayde Mushroom

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That became deprecated in the 20th century when people became more mobile and it was relatively rare for people in the UK, for example, to have never visited London.

Despite the increase in mobility, if you pick any major city in the US, you will still find that their are more US citizens who have never been there than there are US citizens who have.

And it gets even worse when you look at it globally. With a world population at 7 Billion, the percentage of the world population that has visited any random location is probably less than 1%.

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That became deprecated in the 20th century when people became more mobile and it was relatively rare for people in the UK, for example, to have never visited London.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That was the approach adopted by writers in the 19th century when people didn't travel much and had no idea of what locations mentioned in stories were actually like.

That was much more description than I think they're talking about.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Switch Blayde

When I edit a story I actually add description. When writing, I'm consumed with the action and dialogue — very black and white. But when I edit/revise, I add description to the story — add color.

Mushroom 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That was the approach adopted by writers in the 19th century when people didn't travel much and had no idea of what locations mentioned in stories were actually like.

I would suspect it was mostly for another reason.

That was an era where books were very long. This is because a lot of books were actually published in "serial" form, with a new chapter being released each week. This is why "The Count of Monte Cristo" was released as 139 chapter installments over two years.

Dumas, Dickens, Melville, Flaubert, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, even Conan Doyle and Stowe normally released their books originally as a serial.

"Uncle Tom's Cabin" was not originally released as a book. It was a serial that ran in "The National Era", an abolitionist newspaper from June 1951 to February 1852. And when released as a book in March 1852 it was an immediate best seller.

And as they were paid per word, this meant they would pad the hell out of things like descriptions. Of everything from characters and clothes to locations and vehicles.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

And as they were paid per word, this meant they would pad the hell out of things like descriptions.

https://dickens.ucsc.edu/resources/faq/by-the-word.html

The popular myth that Dickens's novels are all so long because he was "paid by the word" is not really accurate. Dickens was not paid by the word. Rather, he was paid by installment.

Dickens published his novels in serial form. That is to say, the novels appeared serially, or over a period of many weeks or months (much as a modern-day soap opera appears daily, or a modern sit-com appears weekly). Most of the novels, including Nicholas Nickleby, Dombey and Son, David Copperfield, Bleak House, Little Dorrit, and Our Mutual Friend, appeared in monthly parts following a very specific formula developed by Dickens and his publishers with the release of Dickens's first full-length novel The Pickwick Papers (1836 – 37). The Pickwick Papers appeared in 20 parts over a period of 19 months. (The last part was a "double issue" that included parts 19 and 20). Each part contained 32 pages of letter press, 2 illustrations, various advertisements, and came wrapped in a flimsy green-paper front and back cover. The price for each part was one shilling (except for the last "double issue," which was two). This price was very cheap compared to the standard price of a book, which at the time was 31 shillings 6 pence.

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@Dominions Son

The popular myth that Dickens's novels are all so long because he was "paid by the word" is not really accurate. Dickens was not paid by the word. Rather, he was paid by installment.

And I included many examples. And while that is correct, it is also not.

The installments were typically of a set length, as they had to fit into a segment of the broadsheet. And when a portion is dedicated to repeated descriptions and over minute details, it lets an author pad the hell out of the story, and at the same time not progressing it very far.

Dickens wrote one way, but another was Alexandre Dumas pere, who was often called the "Master of the Serial". The Count of Monte Cristo was published in 139 chapters from August 1844 to January 1846. And this was an international hit, being published for the first time in English from 1845-1856. His last and unfinished work was The Knight of Sainte-Hermine, serialized from 1869-1870. And comes in at over 900 pages (the entire Lord of the Rings series is 1,137 pages).

And Dumas was known for writing the most pedantric novels of the era, as were many other serial writers. Not unlike Tolkien later, going on for page after page about things that would never matter in the story. But doing so let them cut a single chapter of story progression into 2 or 3 chapters.

Stephen Brust even famously famously among Fantasy-DF writers mimicked Sumas pere's style in his Khaavren Romances. With "The Phoneix Guards" emulating "The Three Musketeers", "Five Hundred Years After" emulating "Twenty Years After", and the final three chapters "The Viscount of Adrilankha" emulating "The Vicomte de Bragelonne".

And tongue in cheek tossing barbs at the writing style, going into almost painful detail about things like the texture of a fabric, or long flowering speeches and repeated conversations over and over again.

[quote]Men have invented various names in which to measure distance, and have a certain pleasure in assigning units of one to the other, it is the sense that so many inches to the spans, and so many spans to the league; in the sense that a league in the Sorannah is almost two leagues within the ancient confines of Seawall, that is, within the barony that once held the city of Dragaera, and, at the time of which we have the honor to write, still held a portion of it; yet. for all of this measurement, it is understood by those who travel and by those who listen to travelers that the meaningful unit by which distance can be measured is time.[/quote]

This is the kind of thing that Dumas pere was famous for, and which often would cut segments that he wrote in that style down dramatically. Most modern translations come in at around 400 pages, significantly less than the over 600 pages of the original unabridged version.

Remember, these authors generally had contracts to release the chapters weekly for a year or more. And they were given how much space was reserved for each chapter, and they had to drag out the story for that entire time. So while technically he was not paid "per word", he was paid for example in Pickwick to produce roughly two chapters a month for 19 months, each being of a set length. In total over 800 pages.

And if a chapter is coming out short on word count, simply throw in more padding.

richardshagrin 🚫

@PotomacBob

It may be sexist of me but I prefer descriptions of female characters, not necessarily their measurements, to ones of male characters. Guys are just guys. Unusual heights or weights might be somewhat interesting, if important to the story, but hair color or most of the time wasting details about his looks are just time wasting. Now I like to spend time on how the girls look.

Dominions Son 🚫

@PotomacBob

For me as a reader, I prefer to have descriptions that include things I could see if I were standing there.

Hair color
Skin tone
Eye color

General build: Is a male broad across the shoulders or narrow? Is a female character a bean pole, an apple (large bust narrow waist & hips), a pear (widest at the hips), an hourglass (Bust & hips roughly even and waist narrower than either) or a beach ball? Fit or fat?

Height at least relative to other surrounding characters. If you have two leading characters and 4 supporting characters I ought to be able to line them up from tallest to shortest in my head.

Clothing. Not necessary in every scene, but often enough to give me a feel for how the character dresses.

Level of detail should vary with how important the character is to the story.

From most detailed to least

Main/leading characters
First string supporting characters
Second string supporting characters
Extras.

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

Level of detail should vary with how important the character is to the story.

This. In most cases just a few main characteristics are needed to allow the reader to form an image in his mind.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

In most cases just a few main characteristics are needed

I'd say 'pertinent' rather than 'main'. If a body characteristic is mentioned once then never again in the story, what was the point?

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Switch Blayde

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

To help give the reader a more complete image of the character. Even if you can't consciously recall it later it still likely affects the picture of the character in your mind.

I've read that the difference between normal memory and "photographic" memory, is not retention, but recall.

Everything you have ever experienced is buried in your mind somewhere, even if you can't consciously remember it.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

To help give the reader a more complete image of the character.

It's debatable whether that's a good thing rather than a bad thing. If you give minimal descriptions, the reader can fill in their own idea of what the character should look like, making them more invested in the story.

A reader who requires a checklist of physical characteristics to be described would be better off with a more visual entertainment medium.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

If you give minimal descriptions, the reader can fill in their own idea of what the character should look like, making them more invested in the story.

In my opinion, and this is as a reader, not a writer, if you leave the slate too blank it will have the opposite effect of what you think.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

if you leave the slate too blank it will have the opposite effect of what you think.

I don't really care if readers think the character looks the opposite of how I'd thought of them unless their description would seriously impair the character's ability to fulfill their role eg if I try to position the character as intelligent but the reader imagines her as blonde ;-)

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Grey Wolf

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I don't really care if readers think the character looks the opposite of how I

Again, my personal experience, as a reader, is that too little description of the characters will leave me uninvested in the story faster than too much description.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

Again, my personal experience, as a reader, is that too little description of the characters will leave me uninvested in the story faster than too much description.

You probably wouldn't like the story I'm reading at the moment then.

The author has mentioned hair colour for a small number of the characters and hinted at the curvaceousness of the principal females but just about everything else has to be inferred from the roles they play. (The story rating is in the mid-8s from over 2000 votes.)

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

You probably wouldn't like the story I'm reading at the moment then.

Probably not. If the author can't be bothered to show me how he sees his characters, why should I bother reading his story?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

If the author can't be bothered to show me how he sees his characters, why should I bother reading his story?

The author does a good job of showing the characters' personalities by the way they interact with each other, and the story itself is an engaging tale of good versus evil.

There's an argument that inserting large doses of telling in order to inform the readers that character X is 5'2", has C-cup breasts, dark brown hair normally tied back in a pony tail, brown eyes, nubile figure accentuated by a slim waist etc would actually detract from the story.

Obviously your mileage differs.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

There's an argument that inserting large doses of telling in order to inform the readers that character X is 5'2", has C-cup breasts, dark brown hair normally tied back in a pony tail, brown eyes, nubile figure accentuated by a slim waist etc would actually detract from the story.

I agree as to the use of actual measurements/bra sizes.

Absolutely disagree as to the rest of it.

And if that would be disruptive to the story, the full description doesn't necessarily need to be dumped all at once the first time the character appears in the story. like other aspects of character background, it can be pieced out as the story develops.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

While I appreciate the joke (and so would several of my characters to whom it applies), I have several highly intelligent blondes as prominent characters. Hopefully not too many readers are having trouble reconciling the two.

One of them frequently plays down her smarts (though it's getting less successful, canonically at least), one of them has mentioned the ability to do so, and one of them is oft underestimated by people who don't know her well. So, in that way, they play to and also subvert the stereotype.

I do have several blondes who are, by most accounts, not all that sharp.

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

If a body characteristic is mentioned once then never again in the story, what was the point?

Depends on the character and description. What if a new character is mentioned once with:

The room became quiet and all eyes turned to the loud noise the door made banging into the wall as it swung open. A man was hunched over, his clothing torn and filthy. His mussed hair hung in his blackened eyes and his puffy cheeks were covered in bruises. Dried blood clung to a split lip and, when his mouth opened, there was blackness where his two front teeth used to be. No words came out, just a grunt, as he staggered into the room dragging his left leg. And then he released his last gasp of breath before collapsing into a lifeless lump.

That was the only occurrence of the man in the story. He appeared and died. But maybe his condition (which was described) is important to the story.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

IMO the description is overblown, but it does serve to slow the story down to increase the impact of the man's death.

Can eyes see a loud noise? Do walls swing open? Do gaps between teeth really look black? Can someone both stagger and drag a leg? And I'm not sure someone on the point of death would release a last gasp of breath. In my experience the last release happens some time after death - on the point of death someone would be more likely to hold their breath or even breath in.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde Pixy

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

IMO the description is overblown, but it does serve to slow the story down to increase the impact of the man's death.

It would be for effect.

Eyes turned when they heard the noise. Turned to the sound. The "it" was the door, not the wall. But I wrote that in a minute without editing. It probably should have been "toward" not "to" for example. I was just pointing out it presents a visual in the scene (which as I've said in the past, I call cinematic). And visuals can be powerful.

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Can eyes see a loud noise?

Well, yes, they can. They see the physical manifestation of the sound waves, water rippling, buildings/ornaments shaking, birds suddenly taking to flight en-masse, people all suddenly looking in one direction. Not forgetting other possible tell-tales like flash of light/flame/smoke,etc, etc, as loud noises tend to be the reaction to something else.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@PotomacBob

I don't necessarily start with a description, but I'll make sure an include one so that readers can mentally build the picture in their mind.

An example from 'A True History' would be Beth. I have detailed information on her in my Cast of Characters, but when I've described her in my story, she was first described as 'a tall, young woman, with blonde hair, maybe slightly older than me, wearing … pants? And a shirt, not a dress'. Later on, her father said, "she's gotten my height, and it's made her a bit gangly. You're a good five foot nine, and she's still got you by three inches. We have a girls' basketball team; she'd be on it if she was coordinated. But she's not, and ain't no boys ever actually given her any time, like you've done."

What I actually do, if I'm not picking someone that's a public figure, is go through a large assortment of pictures online until I just say, yep, that's who I'm going to use as MY mental image for the character. Then I find as many pictures as possible - if needed - and take it from there. Reminds me of back when I was role-playing online a few years ago. One of the characters I was playing was physically based upon Marketa Pechova. Her 34DD/E's are spectacular.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@PotomacBob

My descriptions are pretty sketchy, and (so far) I have received few comments on them. There's enough to know someone's hair color, height (in general), and so forth, but it's not a lot.

I have one character for whom it's essential that she be 'beautiful'. Beauty pageant, magazine cover, etc 'beautiful'. Also, that's she's short, petite, and just plain pretty small. And, blonde. Beyond that, there's little point trying to dig into details, and that's in some ways a model. Better that readers know how most people perceive her, rather than trying to make a description that most people will agree fits their standards of 'beautiful'.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking JoeBobMack

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

Better that readers know how most people perceive her, rather than trying to make a description that most people will agree fits their standards of 'beautiful'.

I see two problems with that approach for the scenario you laid out.

1. The fashion industry has a well known (if not terribly realistic) standard of beauty.

2. As a reader, I personally, would be more interested (particularly for the expressed scenario) seeing the author fully express his/her standard of beauty rather than being left with a blank slate.

The less of yourself you share with your readers through your stories, the less your stories will be.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Also, that's she's short, petite,

Petite means small and slim. Beauty pageant beautiful normally means curvaceous, like an underwear model rather than a catwalk model.

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin Grey Wolf

richardshagrin 🚫

@awnlee jawking

petite

Her urine spray is not widely distributed. pee tight. Alternatively, tite is pronounced teat, like a breast.

"Petite
American pronunciation

Sounds like
puh
·
teet"

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

More of a face-model cover standard. She's definitely not curvaceous, but she could do very well in movies, for instance.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Better that readers know how most people perceive her, rather than trying to make a description that most people will agree fits their standards of 'beautiful'.

As a reader, this works for me. A few pointers then a general perception. I can build a mental picture that works for me. Helps if the author will remind me of key details at important moments. For example, if she is a substantial, curvy girl and he is tall and athletic, it helps when that factors in to their first intimate encounter. And if he is later with a tiny girl, I like it when the author remembers to make the description fit those details.

References to public figures often fail for me. That locks me in, and my response to that person may not match the perceptions described in the story.

On the other hand, when I am writing, it helps to find pictures that capture the character for me. It becomes more than just physical, I remember personality characteristics better when I have a clear picture. But I never use an actor out actress because I would be too stuck on my perception of their personality.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@JoeBobMack

@Grey Wolf

Better that readers know how most people perceive her, rather than trying to make a description that most people will agree fits their standards of 'beautiful'.

As a reader, this works for me. A few pointers then a general perception.

As a reader I wouldn't consider it optimal.

Now, I wouldn't want the author trying to construct a description that most people will agree fits their standards of 'beautiful' either.

Instead what I would consider optimal is the author expressing/showing me his/her standard of beauty through the character's description.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Instead what I would consider optimal is the author expressing/showing me his/her standard of beauty through the character's description.

I would have great difficulty conveying that. I mean, I can remember a young woman I worked with a few years ago who was stunning. I could add a few physical details, but that wouldn't convey this woman's attraction. But, why should I try? What does it matter what really makes me react, if I even know? It seems to me that the more important thing for an author to think about is what that reaction was like for them. How they felt physically. What thoughts they had. Wondering if others noticed their reaction. Even questioning why this person, in this moment, lit up all the desire centers in their brain. It is those things that am author can truly communicate, and a reader can relate to those (maybe).

Or, it could be the way others react that matters. The girl that everyone notices and talks about. The guy that always seemed so relaxed and confident. Far more important than a detailed description without those thoughts, emotions, and reactions. A stimulus is just a stimulus. It's the response that matters.

ETA: Typo correction

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

References to public figures often fail for me.

In an on-going serial, the author refers to 'famous' people when describing the characters. I've never heard of any of them, so I have to stop reading every few minutes to Google the names or live with not knowing what they look like.

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@PotomacBob

There's a dead tree series I follow.

The female lead (There is a male lead), was a top student a music school before events that happened before the start of the series interrupted her life.

At one point in one of the books she recalls an interaction with another student who is also considered one of the top students.

He considers himself a fraud because he can't cross the line from metronome accuracy to true beauty.

Why? Because he is afraid that if he crosses that line, the audience will see him, really see him and he is frightened of what is inside himself.

I agree with this, an artist, any kind of artist, to create true beauty must put their hart and soul into their work and expose it to their audience.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

I agree with this, an artist, any kind of artist, to create true beauty must put their hart and soul into their work and expose it to their audience.

At the risk of appearing racist, that's an issue I have with many of the classical soloists originating from the far east. Technically they're extremely proficient, they've been to top music academies and put in the hard man-hours to master their instruments. But somehow they fail to capture the character of the pieces they play, they don't interpret.

AJ

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Describing everything in agonizing detail is going to be increasingly necessary, due to a lack of imagination, especially in younger readers.

Her paper The Creativity Crisis: The Decrease in Creative Thinking Scores on the Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking was published in the Creativity Research Journal in 2011, and its impact was huge. Its finding that since the mid-90s imagination in the US has been in a 'steady and persistent decline' while IQ continued to rise made the headlines, even the front page of Newsweek magazine. (referring to Prof. Kyung Hee Kim, College of William and Mary)

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2018-09-24/the-creativity-crisis/

I analysed data from the famous Torrance test, since it was originally from 1966 up to 2008. The sample size is almost 300,000. Up to 1990 creativity was going up, then after that, somewhere between 1990 and 1998, something happened and it started declining. In 1998 it decreased and then after that continuously. After 2008 it decreased and then recently, 2018 decreased. Continuously decreasing. Something happened between 1990 to 1998…

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@irvmull

Something happened between 1990 to 1998…

Emphasis on science degrees rather than liberal arts degrees, especially for women.

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Something happened between 1990 to 1998…

"1990s News, Events, Popular Culture and Prices
The Nineties show mans worst side as Ethnic Cleansing is carried out in Rwanda and The Balkans, The Gulf War begins and ends quickly following Iraq's Invasion of Kuwait when Allied Forces led by the US end it quickly, After many years of White Rule Apartheid ends in South Africa, The World Wide Web and the Personal Computer / PC grow in leaps and bounds and together with the growth of mobile phones change our lives forever.

The events listed below we have tried to put a small paragraph on the specific year page providing additional information )

1990
What Happened in 1990 History

Nelson Mandela is released from prison in South Africa and becomes the leader of the ANC.

Tim Berners-Lee publishes a formal proposal for the World Wide Web.

East and West Germany are reunited after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Margaret Thatcher resigns from her position as Prime Minister in the United Kingdom.

One of the most completed T. Rex fossils is found in South Dakota and it is named "Sue" after the paleontologist that discovered it.

1991
What Happened in 1991 History

The Internet becomes available for unrestricted commercial use.

Croatia, Macedonia, and Slovenia become independent from the former Yugoslavia.

The lead singer of the band Queen, Freddie Mercury, dies from AIDS.

Operation Desert Storm takes place in Iraq and Kuwait.

Boris Yeltsin becomes Russia's first elected President.

1992
What Happened in 1992 History

The European Union is created when the Maastricht Treaty is signed.

Democrat Bill Clinton is elected as the United States President.

The Mall of America opens in Minnesota.

Euro Disney is opened in France.

Bosnia and Herzegovina declare independence.

1993
What Happened in 1993 History

Czechoslovakia separates into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

The Hubble Telescope is repaired in space by a crew on the Space Shuttle Endeavour.

NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) is signed into law.

Intel introduces the Pentium Microprocessor.

Russia and the United States sign the START II Treaty.

1994
What Happened in 1994 History

Nelson Mandela becomes the President of South Africa after being elected in the country's first multi-racial elections.

The 1994 FIFA World Cup is held in the United States and Brazil wins the title.

The 1994 Major League Baseball season is cancelled when the Players Association goes on strike.

Genocide and Civil War take place in Rwanda with an estimated 500,000 or more people killed.

The Channel Tunnel is completed and opens, connecting France and England.

1995
What Happened in 1995 History

The American Space Shuttle Atlantis docks with the Russian Mir Space Station for the first time.

The online auction website Ebay is founded.

The Java Programming Language is released.

The first Trans-Pacific hot air balloon solo flight is completed by Steve Fossett.

The World Trade Organization ( WTO ) is created.

Money and Inflation 1990's
To provide an estimate of inflation we have given a guide to the value of $100 US Dollars for the first year in the decade to the equivalent in today's money

If you have $100 Converted from 1990 to 2021 it would be equivalent to $206.72 today

In 1990 a new house cost $123,000.00 and by 1999 was $131,700.00

In 1990 the average income per year was $28,970.00 and by 1999 was $40,810.00

In 1990 a gallon of gas was $1.34 and by 1999 was $1.22

In 1990 the average cost of new car was $16,000.00 and by 1999 was $21,100.00

A few more prices from the 90's and how much things cost

Ford Mustang Convertible $14,289.00

Plymouth Voyager $15,999

Leather Bomber Jacket $99.99

Levi Denim Jeans $34.99

Super Nintendo $159.00

Cellular Car Phone $325.00

Pork Chops $1.98

Frozen Peas 97 cents per pound

Solid Pine Armoire $539.00

Lazy Boy Recliner $260.00

Snowboard $199.00

Childrens Toys From The 1990's
Kids Toys From the 90s
The popular toys at of the decade included Nintendo Game Boy, Tamagotchi virtual reality pet, Tickle Me Elmo, Super Nintendo, Sony Playstation, Furby, Jurassic Park Command Compound, Teacher Barbie, Sega Saturn CD Game System and Nintendo 64 Game System
Vintage Nintendo Game Boy Compact Video Game System
Vintage Nintendo Game Boy Compact Video Game SystemManufacturer: Nintendo
Price: $89.99
A hand-held version of the Nintendo Entertainment System. Features Tetris Game Pack, LCD dot-matrix game screen, and digital stereo sound with earphones for private play. Video Link cable hook-up allows two Game Boy systems to go head-to-head.

1996
What Happened in 1996 History

Princess Diana and Prince Charles get divorced.

The internet search engine "Ask Jeeves" is created.

The Summer Olympics are held in Atlanta, Georgia.

Kofi Annan becomes the Secretary General of the United Nations.

Bill Clinton is elected for a second term as the United States President after he defeats Bob Dole.

1997
What Happened in 1997 History

Madeleine Albright is appointed as the first female Secretary of State in the United States.

Scotland creates its own Parliament.

The first Harry Potter book is published by author J.K. Rowling.

Scientists at the Roslin Institute unveil "Dolly" the first successfully cloned sheep.

The Hale-Bopp comet makes its closest approach to Earth.

1998
What Happened in 1998 History

The search engine Google is founded.

Apple Computers reveals the iMac computer.

The United States has a budget surplus for the first time in thirty years.

Ireland and the United Kingdom sign the Belfast Agreement, also known as the Good Friday Agreement.

Central American countries are devastated by Hurricane Mitch."

QM 🚫

@PotomacBob

I never give a full physical description. I leave it to the imagination. The most you'll get is a shape, basic dimensins and hair colour.

Uther Pendragon 🚫

@PotomacBob

What is important about a character?
It seems to me that, with my characters, at least, it's seldom how they look.
So, why should I introduce them with a physical description?

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

So, why should I introduce them with a physical description?

Why describe the description of a car or a building or a park or a sunset? It's part of the setting. It's to give the reader a visual of what he's reading.

Replies: joyR awnlee jawking

joyR 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It's to give the reader a visual of what he's reading.

If you need to describe what he is reading then details of the car, building, park or sunset are utterly pointless. He isn't reading them, he is reading an ebook, laptop, iPad or phone.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@joyR

He isn't reading them, he is reading an ebook, laptop, iPad or phone.

He is reading the story ON a laptop, tablet, phone.

He's reading the words that describe everything.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Switch Blayde

He is reading the story ON a laptop, tablet, phone.

Your post didn't specify 'on' or 'in'.

Whilst words appear 'on' a page, they are 'in' a book, or an eBook.

:)

ps

If as you stated, "He's reading the words that describe everything." then everything IS described and your original complaint is groundless.

:)

pps

This is SO much better than agreeing with each other..!!
(Unless DS agrees with either of us, thereby fucking it all up again.)

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Why describe the description of a car or a building or a park or a sunset?

Why describe them rather than everything else that can be seen or sensed, unless the descriptions are important later in the story?

Reams and reams of descriptions were all the rage in the 19th century and before, but became deprecated in the 20th century.

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin Grey Wolf Dominions Son

richardshagrin 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Reams and reams of descriptions were all the rage in the 19th century and before.

They often appeared in newspapers as serials and we paid by the publisher based on word count. So more words meant more remuneration.

However it appears that may not be accurate for Dickens, he just had to have enough pages to meet a quota.

"Was Dickens Really Paid By The Word?

The popular myth that Dickens's novels are all so long because he was "paid by the word" is not really accurate. Dickens was not paid by the word. Rather, he was paid by installment.

Dickens published his novels in serial form. That is to say, the novels appeared serially, or over a period of many weeks or months (much as a modern-day soap opera appears daily, or a modern sit-com appears weekly). Most of the novels, including Nicholas Nickleby, Dombey and Son, David Copperfield, Bleak House, Little Dorrit, and Our Mutual Friend, appeared in monthly parts following a very specific formula developed by Dickens and his publishers with the release of Dickens's first full-length novel The Pickwick Papers (1836 – 37). The Pickwick Papers appeared in 20 parts over a period of 19 months. (The last part was a "double issue" that included parts 19 and 20). Each part contained 32 pages of letter press, 2 illustrations, various advertisements, and came wrapped in a flimsy green-paper front and back cover. The price for each part was one shilling (except for the last "double issue," which was two). This price was very cheap compared to the standard price of a book, which at the time was 31 shillings 6 pence.

Dickens's 20-part formula was successful for a number or reasons: each monthly number created a demand for the next since the public, often enamored of Dickens's latest inventions, eagerly awaited the publication of a new part; the publishers, who earned profits from the sale of numbers each month, could partially recover their expenses for one issue before publishing the next; and the author himself, who received payment each time he produced 32 pages of text (and not necessarily a certain number of words), did not have to wait until the book was completed to receive payment. It was largely on the strength of his generous monthly stipend for The Pickwick Papers that Dickens was able to marry Catherine Hogarth in 1836.

For more information on Dickens and serial publication, see "The Composition, Publication, and Reception of Our Mutual Friend" on the Our Mutual Friend Scholarly Pages.

You can also watch this video from Peter Harrington Gallery, London, which provides a great overview of the various formats and bindings of Dickens's works throughout his career."

Grey Wolf 🚫

@awnlee jawking

'The Princess Bride' (the book, not the movie) contains many notes of the form: "Omitted a five-page description of the princess' gowns."

It's hilarious as a critique of the sort of literature which the 'original version' is purported to be (because also being hilarious of its own accord).

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Grey Wolf

'The Princess Bride' (the book, not the movie) contains many notes of the form: "Omitted a five-page description of the princess' gowns."

It's hilarious as a critique of the sort of literature which the 'original version' is purported to be (because also being hilarious of its own accord).

Hm, sounds like a false dilemma. There must be either ridiculously excessively detailed descriptions, or their must be no descriptions at all.

Personally, I think there is a lot of perfectly valid middle ground there.

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

I certainly didn't see it that way. The critique was of ridiculously excessively detailed descriptions, but the proposed solution was not no descriptions at all. The book uses quite a few middle-ground descriptions.

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

unless the descriptions are important later in the story?

Why isn't it enough that the descriptions are important to the current scene?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

Why isn't it enough that the descriptions are important to the current scene?

Later in the current scene is covered by later in the story. If it wouldn't alter the story by describing a different car or a different building or a different park or a different sunset, is there any justification for describing them at all, except to slow the pace of the story and increase the wordcount?

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

is there any justification for describing them at all, except to slow the pace of the story and increase the wordcount?

Personally, I happen to think a story with no scenery, no props and no descriptions of people is flat and boring, so yes. Action isn't and shouldn't be all there is to good storytelling.

ETA: Think of it this way, which do you think would be more engaging to watch, the LOR movies as they were in their theatrical release, or a film of the actors rehearsing in their street clothes on a bare stage with no costumes, no props, and no special effects.

The latter is how I see your story with no descriptions of anything at all.

Replies: awnlee jawking Quasirandom

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

The latter is how I see your story with no descriptions of anything at all.

Leaving out superfluous descriptions does not mean no descriptions at all - you yourself mentioned false dichotomies.

I can't pass judgement on those LOR scenarios - I'd have to see them first. The result might surprise you - there are reasons why some movies are still shot in black and white, and why some photographers still use sepia.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Leaving out superfluous descriptions does not mean no descriptions at all

So what makes one description superfluous and another not?

And going back to your prior comment:

If it wouldn't alter the story by describing a different car or a different building or a different park or a different sunset

An object can not exist in a scene in a text based story unless it is described.

To some extent, "a car" is a description, because it differentiates from a truck, a bus, or a motorcycle.

After that it's about how detailed the description should be.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

So what makes one description superfluous and another not?

If it wouldn't alter the story by describing a different car or a different building or a different park or a different sunset.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

If it wouldn't alter the story by describing a different car or a different building or a different park or a different sunset.

But it does alter the story. A story with a VW bug is not the same story as one with a Dodge Charger.

I presume you mean it doesn't alter the plot, because your statement is nonsensical otherwise.

Well, I reject that reason. plot is not the end all and be all of good storytelling.

A story that is all plot and no scenery is just less than it could be a shadow puppet play vs a full theatrical movie production.

Of course the other extreme would be even worse, all scenery and no plot is not a story at all.

What I am interested in is how to find a happy medium between those two extremes.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

A story with a VW bug is not the same story as one with a Dodge Charger.

In that case it has altered the story so it is right to include the make and model. But how does it alter the story? Would an accident be survivable in one but not the other? Is it a defining characteristic of one of the cast? For example StangStar06 has plot twists based on protagonists always driving Ford Mustangs.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

In that case it has altered the story so it is right to include the make and model. But how does it alter the story?

Because a character who would own and drive a VW bug (compact economy car) is not the same kind of person who would own and drive a Dodge Charger (muscle car).

Is it a defining characteristic of one of the cast?

Always. What kind of car YOU drive says something about what kind of person YOU are.

For example StangStar06 has plot twists based on protagonists always driving Ford Mustangs.

And again, I reject the idea that plot is the end-all/be-all of good storytelling, that anything that does not directly advance the plot is superfluous.

Replies: awnlee jawking Switch Blayde

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

What kind of car YOU drive says something about what kind of person YOU are.

Given the range of cars I've driven, from huge, barely manoeuvrable barges to rinky-dinky town tiddlers, I must have multiple personality disorder ;-)

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

What kind of car YOU drive says something about what kind of person YOU are.

And what your GPS tells you says something about what kind of driver you are. Like if the GPS says: "In 400 feet, LET ME OUT!"

Quasirandom 🚫

@Dominions Son

The actors make the movie, not the props. I have seen plays put on in a theater with stunning costumes and gorgeous sets and been bored bored bored. I've seen the same plays performed on the street by actors in street clothes and not props and been stunned. Yes, same plays: "Romeo and Juliet" and "Merchant of Venice" — best Merchant performance I've ever seen, period.

Is LOR stunning on screen? You bet. Right actors, right script, on the street, I'll take that too.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Quasirandom

The actors make the movie, not the props. I have seen plays put on in a theater with stunning costumes and gorgeous sets and been bored bored bored. I've seen the same plays performed on the street by actors in street clothes and not props and been stunned.

Yes, but when you have both together...

And the same thing goes for books. Great characters and action can make a good story, but without the background and scenery, it's still less than it could have been.

Mushroom 🚫

@PotomacBob

TO be honest, how I describe my characters can change from story to story. And sometimes, I even "hide" part of a description on purpose.

Ages is often a part of that, but other times it has been race. Oh, I always had the individual in my mind when I first started writing about them, but as I largely see race as "inconsequential", it often is only barely mentioned. I often do this, as I rarely make a "fetish" out of race.

And actually, this is something I picked up from Robert Heinlein. Even over 60 years after he wrote "Starship Troopers", a great many miss that Johnny Rico is from the Philippines. As he only included that in an almost throwaway line literally on the last page of the story.

Replies: Switch Blayde Paladin_HGWT

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Mushroom

I largely see race as "inconsequential"

Unless it's not. Like in my novel "Lonely War Widows", which takes place during WWII, the fact that someone living in Oklahoma is of Japanese descent is very consequential.

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Unless it's not. Like in my novel "Lonely War Widows", which takes place during WWII, the fact that someone living in Oklahoma is of Japanese descent is very consequential.

Or my own, "Sally the Welder", with a young black woman from South Carolina working in the war industry in Oakland.

I have done both, but there are times it really is not all that important.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@Mushroom

That Johnny Ringo is of Philippino heritage was mentioned at the end of Starship Troopers.

Near the beginning it is mentioned that he is from Brazil. It is also mentioned that the city that was his home (Rio, as I recall) when it is destroyed by the Aliens ("Bugs" /Arachnids) and he believes his family is dead

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@Paladin_HGWT

That Johnny Ringo is of Philippino heritage was mentioned at the end of Starship Troopers.

Near the beginning it is mentioned that he is from Brazil. It is also mentioned that the city that was his home (Rio, as I recall) when it is destroyed by the Aliens ("Bugs" /Arachnids) and he believes his family is dead

Actually, that was never mentioned in the book. And most clearly he was not from Buenos Aires, which was the city destroyed in the book and movie.

Because when he learned the city was destroyed he thought nothing of it. It barely got a mention, until he discovered at a later date that his mother was there at the time and was killed.

From this, his nationality and where he lived was changed in the movie. But it was very different in the book. In reality, they never said where he was from in the book. He might have actually been a 3rd generation Pilipino-American in a family which had kept their home language alive. But ultimately, it does not matter. He did not know his mother died until months later, I want to say as he was recovering from injuries on Klendathu. But he knew of the attack before he landed on Klendathu.

If his home city had been destroyed, he would have suspected his family and all his friends were dead also. But he did not think that, as his mom was only visiting.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@PotomacBob

My story Aztlan Portal is primarily set in the Mexican state of Chihuahua. Mexico is not as racially diverse as the USA. However, there are people of African, Asian, etc. heritage.

More importantly, in Mexico there are preconceptions of "Class" (status) based upon appearance and typically people with a fair complexion, blond hair, blue eyes, or "classic" European Spanish appearance often get preference. People of "Indio" appearance are often discriminated against.

Mexico City is at least as culturally dominant in Mexico as Paris is in France, or Beijing is in China.

Language dialect is also important.

These tendencies may not be known by many readers in the USA, even less readers from other countries.

I provide some of this information in the Glossary, and occasional snippets in the story. I depict many instances throughout the story, but rarely explain the details.

Descriptions of characters from the USA on a covert mission in Mexico are important. How well they speak Spanish, and if they have a dialect is important. Several who are ethnicly mixed Yuma, Apache, high ranking officers or NCOs in the US armed forces, are looked down upon by some Mexican officials.

Another individual who was born in Cuba, would be discriminated against, except he looks, and speaks like a person born in Spain (and of "high class").

Another main character born in Durango, was tutored, and went to a prep school to make him seem like a person from Mexico City (and he has a BS from Texas A&M) along with his appearance, advantages when he encounters people from Mexico City, bankers, and when dealing with ICE and other "gringos" but a handicap when dealing with fellow Mexicans to get false ID, and other interactions with impoverished Mexicans.

Descriptions matter, and set the tone in various interactions between Mexican bureaucrats and officials, or Mexican police and refugees.

I show this far more than I tell about these prejudices, that have significant impact throughout the story.

stitchescl 🚫

@PotomacBob

For me, unless the story is about weight or breast size, I don't need more than hair color and a general description of height, I can allow my imagination to supply any further descriptions, since I do that until I get slapped with too much detail, again. Then I have to try and get back into the story that was in my imagination

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

How important in a story are physical descriptions of characters?

I begin with an admission: there are gaping holes in my reading background. So, there. But, one I just filled - Pride and Prejudice. I actually like the occasional romance, even Regency romances (though paranormal are more often my choice), plus I thought to maybe gain insight into writing by reading an acclaimed novel new to me.

Anyway, to the point of this thread - Wow! The character descriptions are spare to the point of virtually disappearing. The only description of the female MC, Elizabeth Bennett, for most of the book is that she is "second-prettiest" of her sisters with "fine, dark eyes." Readers also learn that the male MC, Fitzwilliam Darcy, is unimpressed by her looks on first meeting, and and that her figure lacks perfect symmetry but is still light and pleasing. As for Mr. Darcy, he is "tall" and "handsome" and widely admired for his looks until his aloof, dismissive, and taciturn public behavior turns everyone off. Other characters get similarly brief descriptions based mostly on the impressions of others, not physical characteristics.

I note that we do get Elizabeth's description as an impression of Darcy, and Darcy's (IIRC) as sort of the combined impressions of the attendees at the ball where he is introduced. That seems meaningful to me - the male making a personal judgment and the female absorbing the judgments of those around her.

Just observations. I've enjoyed this thread.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Physical Description of Characters

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...