Forum: Author Hangout

what a cigarette is

With just a little word analysis they can work it out. Cigar probably will consider to be understood, and "ette" is a suffix that indicates a smaller sized version. They will still have google or something similar to look it up.
"Dictionary
Search for a word
-ette

suffix
1.
forming nouns denoting relatively small size.
"kitchenette"
2.
forming nouns denoting an imitation or substitute.
"flannelette"

I am reasonably convinced that is where cigar ette came from, back when they were new.

"Who invented cigarettes?
December 12, 2010 by 2016 Revision 5 Comments

Cigarettes were invented in 19th century by a French military man during war time. When his only pipe got broken, the soldier took paper from the gunpowder bag that he was carrying, rolled it as a pipe and filled the tobacco inside to smoke. It is also believed that in Seville the beggars used to take out tobacco from the thrown cigars and pipes of the rich people and rolled them into paper to smoke. The tobacco was in use centuries back. Native Americans and people of other countries were consuming it since long back. In U. S. the manufacturing of cigarettes started in 1860 and the famous brand Bull Durham captured 90% of the demand for the product. The cigarettes were then hand made and a costly affair.

In 1883 cigarette making was revolutionized when the automatic rolling machine for cigarette rolling was made by an eighteen year old boy James. This helped in reducing the production cost and increasing the volume of production. The reduced prize brought great demand. In 1952 filtered cigarettes were introduced for health protection reasons."

-ette

suffix
1.
forming nouns denoting relatively small size.
"kitchenette"
2.
forming nouns denoting an imitation or substitute.
"flannelette"

So is a majorette a small army officer?

So is a majorette a small army officer?

By definition 2 of the ette suffix, it would be someone impersonating an army officer.

Of course Mirriam Webster has a different take on it.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/-ette

1 : little one kitchenette
2 : female farmerette

So majorette could be a female army officer.

Is a butte the opposite of a Kardashian?

No, a butte is the back end of a Kardashian. :)

Is an omelette an imitation of an om?

AJ, I believe an omlette is a very short meditation.

And a Obilette is a small Jedi?

So, can you only order half pints at a barrette?

Can you barely hear a dinette?

So, can you only order half pints at a barrette?

Beer shots. :)

A suffragette hardly hurts at all...

:)

If you only work at a tough job for a minette, would that count as toilette?

I guess I'm one of the few to still have a land line. I would substitute "smart phone" for "iPhone," but not "phone."

'smart phone' is better than 'iPhone' because it's generic although there's nothing smart in today's phones :)

because it's generic although there's nothing smart in today's phones

I don't know about that. They are smarter than some of their users.

'm not a fan of authors who use the names of US chain stores and expect readers to know exactly what is sold there.

UK, Canadian, and Australian authors do the same thing.

I'm not a fan of authors who use the names of US chain stores and expect readers to know exactly what is sold there. Not everyone is American.

A very good example. Even though non-US readers might know a specific chain store name they often have just a faint idea of what kind of store it is.
(Why do we always read 'Walmart' in stories and never 'Macy's'?)

Why do we always read 'Walmart' in stories and never 'Macy's'?

Because there are half a dozen to a dozen Walmarts for every Macy's. A few decades ago, it would have been Sears rather than Walmart.

I recently had a character enter a "K-Mart" to buy a rice cooker. Almost gone now, appropriate for the time, and obvious in the context it is a discount department store chain.

You and probably most in the US know what K-Mart is/was. Maybe appropriate for the time but most of the world outside the US have no idea that you wanted to associate with a discount store. If you use the term K-Mart better make it something like 'at the K-Mart discounter..' or something like that if you want your readers to make the association with a discount store.

The only kinds of stores you generally find next door to a grocery store that would have a rice cooker is a discount store.

There have been a few chains in the US were a single chain company operated a grocery store and a department store on the same premise under a single brand name. And while the department stores were not high end, they weren't discount stores in the way that term is typically used in the US.

Most of them were either out of business or had abandoned the grocery side long before Walmart started carrying groceries. These operations had more separation between the grocery and department store than what you see in a Walmart Supercenter.

Would my spending 2 paragraphs explaining what the store is and what kinds of products it sells really matter?

Of course not, often a single extra word is enough to give just that little needed detail to make it understandable for readers not familiar with the used term.

"Shop smart, shop S-mart"

Stole my line...

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

In the UK, for example, we have a chain called TKMax which sells prestige brands for less than the recommended price ie at a discount. However, if you wanted a cheap rice cooker you might go to somewhere like Wilkinson's which sells budget-price household wares ie not at a discount.

Maybe 'budget store' is more descriptive than 'discount store'.

And in the end, does it really freaking matter? This is kind of the reverse of the topic thread now. Where it is like we are almost demanded to try and explain every single detail as we go along, as if every reader does not know what a K-Mart, or Tesco's, or even what a "New Coke" is.

No demand to explain every detail. Just the simple obvious explanations if they are important to the context of the story. I don't care what kind of store K-Mart is if it isn't significant to know what type of store it is. But if naming a (regional) brand or store name is important to the context an author should not expect readers not from that region to understand what he has written. And it's not reverse to the topic, too little is directly connected to too much detail.

Lhkbfbje

Interesting spelling of 'starbux'

he went into Buttfuckers for a burger

Shouldn't "burger" be spelled "bugger"? After all it is "Buttfuckers".

A strange mix of prophetic and pathetic...

Of course, this is another kind of obscure, because if somebody had not seen the 2006 film those references came from they would not get the joke.

Hard to believe it was that long ago...

The story was only written within the last couple of years by a guy who does good military history stuff, as was this story.

That only proves how fast specific brands can expire. Some brands become the equivalent for a product name that can hold up for many years.

This proves that a lot of literature doesn't live up to the test of time like so many other things.

Indeed, and the main things that haven't lived up to the test are intelligence and curiosity on the part of the reader.

As a child, I was a big fan of Sherlock Holmes, yet I never lived in Victorian London. Never heard of a gasogene nor ridden in a Hansom cab. But I didn't let that stop me from enjoying a good story.

By employing a bit of intelligence, a reader can usually figure out some obscure reference, and by being even a little bit curious, can find out.

Without details of time, place, and character, all stories basically boil down to "Joe lived and then died. The End"

Pretty much exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.

but in the UK, BMW and Volvo drivers have a specific reputation diametrically opposed to each other.

BIG mistake using car brands to point out a specific type of driver, car images change faster than the brand itself and those images differ per country/region and period. Where a BMW might be a car for the effluent in one place down here it's almost synonym for asshole. Here Volvo always had the image for the safest car possible and the drivers were mostly good, easy drivers. Nowadays Volvo drivers are almost bigger assholes than the BMW drivers were.

Suburu incidentally, has a stastistically higher percentage of gay (male and female) owners

Unless you count the Prius as distinct from Toyota...

BMW

It a letter, W, made with bowel movements. Pretty shitty.

Science supports your son. When someone is enjoying a story, their reading speed increases.

I have to call bullshit on this. There is no way to objectively measure if someone is enjoying a story. Any "study" that purports to have done something like this is NOT science.

but there are lots of ways of telling whether someone is enjoying a story.

Perhaps, but without objective measurements, whatever you are doing, it isn't science.

Perhaps, but without objective measurements, whatever you are doing, it isn't science.

It wouldn't be difficult to design an experiment to gauge if a reader enjoyed a book, so yes, it could be science.

It's been done so yes, it is science.

Lots of things have been done that are not science.

That some quack called it science doesn't make it science.

That some quack called it science doesn't make it science.

Isn't it also true that if some quack called it "not science," that doesn't make it not science?

Isn't it also true that if some quack called it "not science," that doesn't make it not science?

Technically true, but I didn't just declare it was not science. I have a specific reason why I think it's not science, the lack of objective measurements.

And no, I'm not going to buy claims that you can objectively measure a subjective mental state.

It wouldn't be difficult to design an experiment to gauge if a reader enjoyed a book, so yes, it could be science.

Enjoyment is inherently subjective, even to the individual experiencing it.

You are wrong. It would be nearly impossible to design and experiment that would give you an objective measurement.

Enjoyment is inherently subjective, even to the individual experiencing it.

Just because it is subjective does not mean it cannot be measured.

Voting is subjective, are you really suggesting that votes can't be measured..??

Obviously an experiment to measure enjoyment wouldn't be a vote, but that does not mean an experiment cannot be designed that produces meaningful results.

Just because it is subjective does not mean it cannot be measured.

True, but it does mean it can't be objectively measured.

It could be objectively measured... just not using some objective scale. Ordinal ranking is objective.

It could be objectively measured...

No, subjective mental states can not be objectively measured.

just not using some objective scale. Ordinal ranking is objective.

The above statement contradicts itself.

Either the orndinal ranking is an objective scale or it's not objective.

Ordinal ranking is not a continuous scale of measurement. As such, the statistical tests involved in determining whether to accept or reject a null hypothesis are different when using ordinal rankings than used with other objective measures.

As such, the statistical tests involved in determining whether to accept or reject a null hypothesis are different when using ordinal rankings

That has nothing to do with whether or not ordinal rankings are objective measures.

They're objective measures. It's just that if you could measure using some continuous scale, the numerical differences would be inconsistent.
However, you can easily convert data from a continuous scale to ordinal values. It's just not possible to transform data in the other direction. For example, you can use sprinters' times to determine the objective order they completed a race in, but you can't determine the difference in their times from which place they finished in.

They're objective measures. It's just that if you could measure using some continuous scale, the numerical differences would be inconsistent.

They are objective measures if the underlying data on which the ordinal ranking is based is objective, say population ranges for cities.

An ordinal ranking based on people's subjective opinions and/or feelings does not magically make the subjective data objective.

D.S. Your argument seems to be that because the data is based on a subjective assessment, that it isn't science.

Yep.

Quite frankly, it comes across as snobbery rather than anything else.

It comes across a snobbery, because a lot of people with that opinion also seem to think that science is the only valid source of knowledge and/or truth. The latter is an opinion I do not share.

If it helps, just remember that what you are doing and what they are doing is simply applied mathematics.

Untrue. A lot of basic science can be done without any mathematics.

Mathematics is, after all, the only Pure Science

An outright lie. Mathematicians make no use of the scientific method at all. Mathematics is actually a branch of philosophy.

An outright lie. Mathematicians make no use of the scientific method at all. Mathematics is actually a branch of philosophy.

Technically, Mathematics is more properly understood as a language.

I say verily unto thee, Mathematics is a religion.

Religions are fictional constructs designed to control the public and enrich... Actually, you're right. Never mind.

Mathematics is, after all, the only Pure Science :)

xkdc

If it were a sex book, the measurement could be number of strokes per minute.

That only works if the optimum stroke speed is universally constant and all shafts are of equal dimensions.

Experience (mine) shows that this is not the case... Indeed some claims of impressive equipment prove to be wildly inaccurate, not to mention excessively premature....

I only have anecdotal evidence on this one, but.. I've read dozens of 1000-page novels each in well under a day. And there've been much smaller books that took me weeks to slog through. (Dickens was the worst, but a few others.)

And it could easily be tested scientifically: test reading speeds, then survey the test subjects on the material tested. You'd need several sources for each subject to be tested with, to determine baseline speed as well as increase the likelihood that some subject matter appealed and some didn't...

I've read dozens of 1000-page novels each in well under a day.

Some people can do it, most can't. And it isn't just about reading speed, it's about having the free time to do it with no external distractions.

then survey the test subjects on the material tested.

In my opinion objective measurements of all requisite observations are a prerequisite for doing science. Once you bring surveys of people's subjective opinions into it, you aren't doing science anymore.

So you believe psychology isn't a science.
Fact is, psychology as a field is one of the most rigorous in methodology, precisely because it's considered a 'soft science'.

No doubt, one day we'll have tech to measure real-time levels of various neurotransmitters, and skip over the surveys, but...

If you want to show reading speed increases for enjoyable reading material, you only need to know how your test subjects rank the reading material (from least to most enjoyable) and what their reading speeds were for each. As well as having a large enough sample to ensure that you have groups whose 'favorite' covered each position in reading sequence, so you can correct for other causes in speeding up or slowing their reading speed.

So you believe psychology isn't a science.

Exactly right. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean I think it's all bunk. I'm not one who thinks "science" is the only source of useful knowledge and/or truth.

Since the whole universe is experiential in nature, even 'scientific' observations are experiential. Therefore science doesn't exist.

Experiential is not equivalent to subjective. No cigar. Feel free to try again.

Me, I take analgesics when necessary even though the evidence for their efficacy is not objective but based on participants subjectively assessing their pain levels.

I'm not one who thinks "science" is the only source of useful knowledge and/or truth.

Yes. Which would make the average reading speed for that story higher than a story they did not enjoy.

Yes, there's ways you could measure realtime reading speed (each page with identical word counts, tracking eye movement to determine progress, etc) but easier to just be logical about things.

I used to assume that someone who read a novel in one sitting because they couldn't put it down was the pretty much the ultimate accolade

1. There's an old saying about what happens when you assume.

2. Few adults have time these days to sit and read a novel all the way through in one go even if we wanted to. Life intrudes. For most of us, that doesn't lessen our enjoyment of a good novel.

What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?

How many people not from North America would know what a porcupine is? Hedgehog would be more universal.

Now an obscure and obsolete item, but at one time very common.

Most of them weren't just holders, many had filters in them. But as you say, the first cigarettes with built in filters didn't come out until the 1950s.

In the James Bond books, Ian Fleming has Bond driving an Aston Martin. I'm not familiar with them, but they were a specific model.

Aston Martin is a make(a specific manufacturer), not a model. It's like saying Bubba drove his Ford.

It's important in the Bond stories because:

1. It's a British manufacturer, and Bond is a British spy.
2. They exclusively make high-end, high-priced sports cars, making it a statement of elite status.

With most items, I don't think brand would matter so much to a story unless it's either an unusually expensive or unusually cheap brand, such that it says something about the character.

With cell phones, I might mention if a character is using an iPhone, because there is a certain culture that surrounds iFans that would say something about the character. I would probably not be so specific about other phones.

If 'camel' was spelt with a small 'c', the author deserves a slap round the chops with a wet cod ;-)

In many cases using a capital letter as in this case could give an indication were it not that many authors here on SOL abuse the use of capital letters where they should not be. Often in the middle of a sentence where it makes no sense at all or starting a new sentence with a lower case letter. Correct use of capitalization of letters and correct punctuation seems to be on a steadily declining path in the last years. It probably has to do with not using proofreaders and/or editors.

It probably has to do with not using proofreaders and/or editors.

Or the proofreader being a damn idiot. (GMW once had a proofreader suggest 'ramada' be capitalized.)

Actually, ramada was a Spanish word that was adopted into English via Mexico. Later, Ramada Inn was founded and grew into a chain. However, the use of the word that I was referencing was in a western Gina wrote.

More to the point, if a story is set in a time and place, items and locations appropriate to that time and place should be used.

There are many businesses that I've never encountered in person, yet am familiar with through reading, and I'm referring to large chains. Hell, I've never seen a Trader Joe's but I'm familiar with Two Buck Chuck. I've never seen a pack of Chesterfields, but if I was reading a story set in wartime Britain I'd expect them to show up several times at least.
When reading a story with a foreign setting, expect foreign details and be prepared to figure out references. In the case of the OP, simply reading long enough for the character to take a drag or blow the smoke out should've been sufficient. Heavyhanded genericism is more 'telling' than 'showing'.

But they gave us a place to sit when we explained we didn't have anywhere to take the food.

Weird, usually when the Fish & Chip shop gives you a plaice, you eat it.

Also, it was a "take away", of course you had a plaice to take the food. Anywhere not inside the shop is "away"..!!

It'd be amusing for a story with some teen kiwi exchange student walking into a store and asking for 'Durex'

"....because I keep making terrible mistakes"

:)

I'd say the condom company had a brand name issue in NZ and didn't use the anme there.

Hmm, something seems not quite right with this sentence. :)

Interesting, when you fixed the original, it fixed the quote. That was unexpected.

Say what? I see the quote as still wrong

Dominions Son

08/09/2020, 22:01:34

@Ernest Bywater

I'd say the condom company had a brand name issue in NZ and didn't use the anme there.

Hmm, something seems not quite right with this sentence. :)

ETA: on the gripping hand, the original post is still wrong, too.

Maybe Ernest ninja edited the ninja edit?

edit: and now is just fucking with everyone.

I wonder if it was Laz...

I wonder if it was Laz...

Or I just had a bad moment and thought it had been edited when it hadn't. I have sleep issues, and the last week has been rough for me sleep wise. I've been pretty tired.

tired.

When you buy tires for your car it is tired. When you do it again, it is retired.

When you buy tires for your car it is tired. When you do it again, it is retired.

You should be punished.

not quite right

"anme" means "name". Like Teh is The and other times enthusiasm causes the next key to be hit before the one that was intended. His stories are well proofread. Forum posts, sometimes a little less. It happens to many people who post.

That's why there is a pencil at the bottom, so additions and corrections can be made, if the writer thinks of something else to say. After making them, hit "Save Changes".

I am a pungent.

So, you stink. Well, admitting it is half the battle.

If Grammar Girl had a daughter, would she be a mignonette?

Is Grammar Girl's brother called Grandar Boy?

Is the grinning dick properly defined as crapette?

Is the grinning dick properly defined as crapette?

No, he's more like Mega Crapasaurus Rex.

So.... not a little piece of shit?

So.... not a little piece of shit?

Not exactly, in the rankings he's in turd place...

:)

Would a trowel be a shovelette or a spadette?

Take your pickette....

:)

Is Bette an uncapitalised 'b' or a 'd' written backwards?

Maybe it's more topical, if not accurate to say that "bête noire matters"

I agree with you, but with that perspective, a brand name with no additional context becomes a problem of too little detail rather than too much detail.

The real issue in your original post, tho, is the fact that your son isn't really culturally aware of smoking like most people who would've been present during the time and place the book was set in.
Anyone who was so aware would've caught the phrase 'lit up a...' and realized it was a cigarette, particularly since well over fifty percent of soldiers smoked in that setting.
Yes, at some point he should've exhaled, tapped his ashes, or ground out the butt, but the reference should've made sense just based on knowing the setting.

My point is that the reference only make sense to those who are already familiar with the reference item and not all cultural references are valid world wide. Without providing details for those unfamiliar with the reference item all you do is confuse the issue by using a brand name only.

A very good description of the problem. Also, don't forget changes in time. In another 50-100 years smokers from today may be regarded as if they were criminal drug users, in some parts of the world they already are.

Is he trying to impress me that he knows the layout of San Fran?

I suspect he was trying to inform me - the uninformed reader - about the streets of San Francisco.

I think you miss one possibility. If it's pertinent to the character (he handloads his ammo, and knows the ballistic characteristics of his rounds with different loads) then it's just as reasonable as any quirk.
If your character had OCD, would you exclude details of various rituals he always carried out, or leave them in to flesh out the character?

I think you miss one possibility. If it's pertinent to the character (he handloads his ammo, and knows the ballistic characteristics of his rounds with different loads) then it's just as reasonable as any quirk.

And all of those details don't matter to uninformed readers - like me - unless you also say why any of that makes a difference (that bullet with that weapon will kill him six miles away - or, it's no more dangerous than a children's toy rifle.)

I didn't have to mention it was green,

I'm fairly certain that there were a couple studies showing choice of vehicle color was of some predictive value as to personality.

A lot of green in the Army.

In 1943 I think most of the uniforms were khaki. They also used olive drab which might barely be considered greenish. There sure were a lot of variations, which makes "uniform" not very descriptive of what was worn.

I'm fairly certain that there were a couple studies showing choice of vehicle color was of some predictive value as to personality.

And most models only came in certain colors. Of course a hot-rod could always have a custom paint job, but that was not that common in that era.

The early Fords, came in "any color you want as long as it's black."

I could have simply said the car was parked there. Would that have made it better? I don't think so. I think the year of the car (it's now 1943 in the story) and the type of car is important. I didn't have to mention it was green, but detail adds color to a story so why not?

Nothing wrong with that snippet. Sure it gives some extensive detail and mentions a brand not everybody might know but at the same time you explained everything to put it in context for the reader. Nobody will have a problem with that piece of story.