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Someone thinks my story is good. I think?

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

I have 19 stories on here that mostly, over the years, have built up a few hundred votes. Today one of them gets a new vote: I can tell because the total votes has gone up. Which story is it? Is there a way to tell that I haven't spotted?

I find the story in question. The number of votes has incremented by 1 but the rating average hasn't changed. Well it's an average of 500 votes so it could be a positive rating or a negative one. Who knows. In effect, it's nul feedback. Wasted.

Sometimes the average drops, and then it's just a bad feeling, with no comment and nothing to learn from it. Or it can be a 7.x average dropping by .1 and still a "Good" rating from some kind reader, but there's no way of knowing. They might not have enjoyed it at all.

So, this is a great site and I love it, BUT, if negative reviews aren't allowed, why are negative votes? So much secrecy arises from the need to protect us delicate snowflakes from them.

The Wattpad system allows one positive vote per chapter, binary - vote or not, and it's a lot more positive. No negatives, and more votes for more chapters. Better stories get more votes, and you get notified. It helps you spot a bad chapter.

I know this wretched subject has been discussed a lot, but for me, after 5 years, the current system doesn't work as well as it could. Just sayin :)

I can feel "don't worry about votes" advice incoming :), but we publish hoping that our stories will be enjoyed don't we? Or if you don't care, a simple system is at least simple.

Replies:   joyR  Switch Blayde  REP
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

So, this is a great site and I love it, BUT, if negative reviews aren't allowed, why are negative votes?

As far as I'm aware, negative reviews are allowed. Admittedly I've not posted one so I can't speak from experience, but knowing how Lazeez works, a negative review that was accurate AND constructive would get published.

That a negative review that was simply venom and spite would be rejected is both fair and comforting, don't you think?

As for the 'v' word... Just shoot me now, it's been done to death and if Lazeez does decide to change it, wrap up warm, 'cos hell just froze over.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Negative reviews are strongly discouraged, and rightly so.

Yes it's Lazeez' site and he can do what he wants with it of course. It's a sensitive subject, because writing is exposing, but on Wattpad the voting doesn't get discussed, or hidden, because negative is not an option. And you know what you're getting and get notified even.

Replies:   joyR  Redsliver
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Since you seem to hold up Wattpad as the ultimate benchmark, why not simply confine yourself to posting stories there..?

Obviously the system here isn't acceptable to you, why continue to bang your head against the wall..?

Not all here agree with the voting system, but we (mostly) stopped bitching about it long ago, take a hint, grab a pair of grown up pants and move on.

Oh, and have a nice day... :)

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Since you seem to hold up Wattpad as the ultimate benchmark, why not simply confine yourself to posting stories there..?

No need to get huffy.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

No need to get huffy.

To misquote a certain Aussie...

That's not huffy, THIS is huffy..!!

:)

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Negative reviews are strongly discouraged, and rightly so.

Rightly so? That "and rightly so." really irritates me. I get discouraging open hate or directionless belittling, but negative reviews shouldn't be discouraged and should be strongly encouraged for the constructive ones.

Can you make a case that inhibiting negative feedback is a good strategy? I can't square that circle.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

Well it's Lazeez' policy, and if you look down the reviews they mostly rate 9's and 10's. Ours are (mostly) free stories written by rank amateurs in our spare time, and posted for people to enjoy. We don't post them to get brought down by people posing as smarter.

It's a positive policy that encourages people to write and publish. This site is supposed to be fun isn't it? Not an exam. There are always Comments for being critical, that we can choose to leave up or have deleted.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

This site is supposed to be fun isn't it? Not an exam. There are always Comments for being critical, that we can choose to leave up or have deleted.

Yeah, the choose is what I like. If someone wants to take their critical comments down, good for them. I want them up. I want to get better.

This is reminding me of my board game discussion in Blizzard. Some games are fun to win, some games are fun to play. Monopoly vs Cards Against Humanity. The former requires all players to strive to be the best or it drags out and gets frustrating. The latter requires everyone to sit at the table and pick up the cards. I treat hobby writing as the former.

I want to win. Can't get stronger if there are no weights in the gym.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

Yes okay, my point starting this thread is that quite often a vote is not feedback :)

Over time the vote system has evolved to protect us from itself.

Replies:   REP
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

All votes are feedback. Sometime a vote is not reliable feedback; such as, a voter saying the Author put out the effort so they deserve a 10.

You will need to explain why you think the voting system protects us from the voting system. If the system reported the average of an author's raw scores, it would reflect the reader's votes, and in theory, their opinion of the story. Unfortunately, using raw scores leads to a large grouping of stories in the range of 8-10. Lazeez's system is an attempt to normalize the votes that are grouped close to 10. While I would prefer the average of my raw scores, I accept Lazeez's algorithm for it compares my score against other author's scores. It does not protect me from the system being used.

Replies:   Redsliver  Daydreamz
Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

All votes are feedback.

My opinion exactly.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

Quite often I know there has been a vote but I can't tell whether it was a positive vote or a negative vote, because the average hasn't changed or it was in the 7's and only dropped by .1. Also I don't get notified I have to check and hunt for them.

I understand the system and how it has evolved to be the way it is. It's well-intentioned but a lot of writers react badly to the negative votes, and so over time we have been protected from them, with this element of secrecy.

So the question I'm floating is whether it would be better not to have negative votes, but just the option for the reader to recommend/upvote each chapter. Either vote, or don't vote.

In the end we the authors get the same message about how well received the story is, and even each chapter, but we can see all the votes and even be notified, because we don't need our sensitive souls protecting any more :)

It's what they do on Wattpad and on Wattpad there is no discussion of the voting system. And it would be an easy recode for existing stories.

Anyway this is just a bit of feedback for Lazeez, to do with as he pleases. This is entirely his great, great site and he is not made of glass :)

Replies:   Keet  Switch Blayde  Redsliver  REP
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

So the question I'm floating is whether it would be better not to have negative votes, but just the option for the reader to recommend/upvote each chapter. Either vote, or don't vote.

The current system is way better than this. Only up votes per chapter tell me nothing about the story overall and I'm reading stories, not individual chapters. A story with a score of 5.5, 6.9, or 8.7 tells me something. That combined with the description and the tags gives me enough data to determine if I should start reading the story. Just stupid thumbs up like on fecesbook are useless.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

It's what they do on Wattpad and on Wattpad

But the score is part of the search on SOL. Wattpad has nothing like that. SOL has a much better scoring system.

Scores on SOL are more for readers than authors. So how would a star-system work? Search on stories with the highest number of stars? And back to wattpad, the number of stars is misleading. A 10-chapter story can get 10 stars from the same reader while if it was a single chapter story that reader would only give it one star. Is the story 10 times better because it's broken into chapters?

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Yes true a recommendation by chapter rewards short chapters. But conversely, only one vote per story is pretty limiting as well, when stories can be any length. And in practice readers tend not to vote chapters if they find them too short to be satisfying.

As a search aid, I don't find the 1-10 score works very well at all. My highest-rated story has the second-lowest number of reads!

Replies:   joyR  Switch Blayde
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Bullshit..!!

Yes true a recommendation by chapter rewards short chapters. But conversely, only one vote per story is pretty limiting as well, when stories can be any length.

So you want a vote for each chapter? If that farce was implemented, then how does it help? Do readers skip those chapters with poor scores?

And in practice readers tend not to vote chapters if they find them too short to be satisfying.

Proof? Other than "I just made it up".

As a search aid, I don't find the 1-10 score works very well at all. My highest-rated story has the lowest number of reads!

Your highest rated story will score much lower as more people vote. Stories can have high votes soon after posting because the 'fans' who will high score their favourite authors have voted. Once more readers vote, a more representative score will emerge.

Another sea change in votes often occurs once a story is completed because many readers only read completed stories and therefore don't vote on a story in progress. (Except those who high vote their favourite authors asap)

As an aside, if each chapter allowed a written recommendation to be added by the readers, then short of reading the recommendations for every chapter of every story on SoL, how are you going to find those you want to read..??

Oh wait..!!! Why not add a score..!!! Then we can sort stories by a numerical value..!! Wow...!! Who'd have thought it...???

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

So you want a vote for each chapter? If that farce was implemented, then how does it help? Do readers skip those chapters with poor scores?

He was responding to me about wattpad. The giving of stars on wattpad pretty much happens while the story is being posted. The kids there give the posted chapter a star to encourage the writing of the next chapter. No one's proposing we score chapters on SOL.

Although, on SOL that pretty much happens while the story is being posted. A reader will change his vote based on the last chapter read.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

He was responding to me about wattpad. The giving of stars on wattpad pretty much happens while the story is being posted. The kids there give the posted chapter a star to encourage the writing of the next chapter.

Pardon me, I thought one gained stars there for not using text speak. Correct spelling and grammar being way too difficult to even consider.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

As a search aid, I don't find the 1-10 score works very well at all.

I meant it's built into the search engine. You can sort results by score (ascending or descending).

wattpad is more of a social media site. The stars are like the "like" on other sites.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Well what I mean is that the number of reads my stories get doesn't seem related to their score. So it doesn't appear that score is much of a search criterion.

That fits in with my own experience: that a 9.x story is generally no more rewarding than a 6.x; it is just more likely to be something uplifting for a young man's male ego :)

For my stories the title seems to be by far the biggest factor in how much it gets read.

Yes indeed Wattpad is a very different place, BUT one of the differences that might appeal to Lazeez is that nobody discusses the voting system :))

This system it started out simply, and with the best intentions, as a 1-10 scale. What could possibly go wrong? Well various trends emerged, mainly around the fact that it enabled negativity and this is the Internet. So it was fixed, in stages, to defeat trolling and reduce the whingeing, to be consistent over time, until we arrive at this situation where, again today, people voted two of my stories and I have no way of knowing whether it means they liked them or disliked them.

On Wattpad I'd get a message about each and even know who voted - because they could only be positive. The vote count would increase by one each, or if they didn't like the chapter I'd see a read with no vote (or possibly a comment just like here). I'd even get an estimate of how much of the chapter they'd read.

Not saying it's perfect on WP, but everyone just accepts it and gets on with it, while here this seemingly innocent thread rocks on getting more heated every day.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Keet
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

Yes indeed Wattpad is a very different place, BUT one of the differences that might appeal to Lazeez is that nobody discusses the voting system :))

No, they always complain about nobody reading their stories. They always ask, "How do I get more reads?" That doesn't happen on SOL.

There are 80 million people on wattpad (one of the ambassadors recently mentioned that) and the number of stories is huge.

Also, if I remember right, you can't give a star or comment from the phone app and many (most?) people access wattpad on their phone.

By the way, how do you find stories to read on wattpad? Surely not by the number of stars given. There really isn't much search capability.

I happen to love the SOL search (I remember suffering through ASSTR's). I believe it's one of SOL's strengths.

SOL's scoring system is what it is. However, it's only as good as the readers voting. Some of the weird things about the scoring system are a result of the way people score stories.

Replies:   Keet  Daydreamz
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Some of the weird things about the scoring system are a result of the way people score stories.

Isn't that a 'problem' for every scoring system?

Replies:   joyR  samsonjas  Switch Blayde
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

Isn't that a 'problem' for every scoring system?

Yup.

How readers vote is subjective.

Should a reader be able to score a well written story a '1' just because it includes a certain kink? Or an awful story a '10' to 'encourage' them to do better?

Yes..!!

That is part of the freedom of speech people fought and died to preserve. Enjoy it..!!

samsonjas ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Keet

There at 44k stories and I don't know how many users, but I'm guessing that the few thousand committed users who are reading as many stories as I do probably aren't even finding the stories they would most enjoy. In a sense, SOL is failing us! ;)

I don't propose we change the scoring. In fact, I want to keep the scoring how it is despite my own stories not scoring well.

No, as I keep pleading, we should be using those scores to drive a much better way for people to find stories they will enjoy.

I like romantic stories. Most romantic stories are not tagged as romantic though. Tags are a crap way to find stories.

A normal web shop "people who brought this also brought" is called "collaborative filtering". There are easy libs to do it too, so programmers don't have to do their own.

Collaborative filtering is great.

1) It's easy to list the stories that those who liked a particular story also rated highly. That would be massively more useful than the current "similarly tagged stories" crap we see at the end of a story.

2) And collab filtering is also great for suggesting stories someone will like after that person has scored a handful of stories. The "random" story at the top of the homepage is great but it would be awesome to also have one or two recommendations there too.

3) And, finally, clustering algorithms and self-organizing-maps can crunch all the scores and identify "groups"; I would anticipate clusters by category but also interesting groupings like "stories where the MC has no emotions" and groups we don't anticipate; it would be fun to look at a group and try and articulate what they have in common etc. That would be a great "explore" page that encourages people to discover stories.

If I were given the anonymized vote history for this site I would be happy to demonstrate this and even provide the python code I'd use to do it.

And it would shut me up too. Please??

Replies:   joyR  Keet  REP  Switch Blayde
joyR ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@samsonjas

There at 14k stories

Try 44,977 at time of posting.

ETA

So, a hypothetical question;

How would you deal with someone who makes such a glaring error, would you trust them with code? Do you think that asking for site code as a way to 'shut them up' is childish? What would you expect them to do next.? Throw their toys from their pram.?

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

So, a hypothetical question;

How would you deal with someone who makes such a glaring error, would you trust them with code? Do you think that asking for site code as a way to 'shut them up' is childish? What would you expect them to do next.? Throw their toys from their pram.?

Hypothetically ;) What if he didn't ask for site code but just stated "If I were given the anonymized vote history...". There's a difference between asking and wishing and there's a difference between site code and voting data.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@samsonjas

There at 44k stories and I don't know how many users, but I'm guessing that the few thousand committed users who are reading as many stories as I do probably aren't even finding the stories they would most enjoy. In a sense, SOL is failing us! ;)

I read a lot and mostly on SOL. My download count stands at 15489 at the moment. Mind that I mostly download completed stories and convert them to my custom library. The count would be a lot higher if I read them directly on SOL. I do find the stories I enjoy the most. SOL is not failing, I doubt I could find more stories outside of SOL that I like as much as I like a lot of the stories here.

I like romantic stories. Most romantic stories are not tagged as romantic though. Tags are a crap way to find stories.

If you have a premium account you can select the Romantic genre below the tag list. That should get you a lot further.

Collaborative filtering is great.

Yes it is, but SOL is not a web shop. CF is very easy for a web shop but the same is very complex for SOL. There are so many little things that make a story great for a set of readers but just a little twist and a lot of them could hate them.

If I were given the anonymized vote history for this site I would be happy to demonstrate this and even provide the python code I'd use to do it.

I would very much like to see the results of such a test. You will have to contact Lazeez to get his opinion about it and possibly the data or a sub-set to work with.

REP ๐Ÿšซ

@samsonjas

I like romantic stories. Most romantic stories are not tagged as romantic though. Tags are a crap way to find stories.

And collab filtering is also great for suggesting stories someone will like after that person has scored a handful of stories.

How would you go about implementing collaborative filtering?

In a commercial setting, the cost associated with defining the criteria used by collaborative filtering is paid for by the website's marketing budget.

For SOL, there would be costs incurred by Lazeez to establish and support such a system. In a cost-benefit analysis, I doubt the benefit to SOL would warrant the cost. Even more important is, who would evaluate the story and define the criteria used to link a story to other stories? Your basic choices are the authors, the administrators, and the readers. There are problems with all three. Authors assign codes based on how they see their story and readers can view the story differently. The administers don't have the time to read the stories so they could define the criteria. Each reader is going to see the story differently and assign different criteria. Which criteria should be used?

Such a system would result in a story being linked to so many stories that the readers would be overwhelmed by the number of 'you may like' recommendations.

For example: Most stories have an element of humor even though the author did not code the story as humorous. If Humor was used as a collaborative filtering criteria, the reader could receive 10K+ 'you might like' recommendations.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

If Humor was used as a collaborative filtering criteria, the reader could receive 10K+ 'you might like' recommendations.

That's not exactly how CF works. The algorithm would use just the top 3 or 5 to display as a recommendation. If you choose one of the recommendations a very good algorithm would ensure that at least one of the new recommendations was different from the previous given recommendations.
As I replied to samsonjas, it's relatively easy for web shop but very complex for a structure like on SOL.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Keet

easy for web shop

What is a web shop?

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

What is a web shop?

Webshop

ETA: I would have thought you knew that since you're building one of your own for book sales ;)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Keet

I would have thought you knew that since you're building one of your own for book sales

I always used/thought 'Online Store'.

To me a web shop is like a company building web site, of which I'm a one man shop.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I always used/thought 'Online Store'.

To me a web shop is like a company building web site, of which I'm a one man shop.

That explains it. Here in Europe we most commonly use webshop for an online store.

REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

The algorithm would use just the top 3 or 5 to display as a recommendation.

So, if all of my 10K+ potential recommendations were appropriate for recommendation, how would an algorithm go about determining which ones should be recommended? [I mean that as a rhetorical question.]

Using the Humor code and SOL's current search algorithm would give me a listing of stories the author thought were humorous. If the listing is too long, I can add to my criteria to reduce the length of the listing.

I would prefer a Recommendation system that gives me some control instead of a system that just feeds me 3 to 5 recommendations that it thinks I want out of a possible 10K recommendations.

Replies:   samsonjas  Keet
samsonjas ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

Using voting history as input to a recommendation system is not going to prevent you from using a category search. It's not like anyone is anticipating search and random-stories and even the "show similarly tagged stories" mechanisms to go away.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

I would prefer a Recommendation system that gives me some control instead of a system that just feeds me 3 to 5 recommendations that it thinks I want out of a possible 10K recommendations.

Just a few recommendations is how webshops work ("also bought this"). What you want could only be implemented by redirecting to a separate page with all recommendations although I doubt that a good CF system would come up with 10K possibilities. If it did it's not working that well.

Replies:   REP
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

I was referring to stories, not a commercial enterprise.

I was also exaggerated for effect the number of stories on the site that have the Humor code. There is also a difference between a story coded as humorous and a story the readers find humorous. So a CF system could potential result in a very large number of story recommendations if Humor was a CF criteria even though it would only display a recommendation for a few stories.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

There is also a difference between a story coded as humorous and a story the readers find humorous. So a CF system could potential result in a very large number of story recommendations if Humor was a CF criteria even though it would only display a recommendation for a few stories.

You have to understand that a CF system doesn't just compare tags and thus finds stories that are similar. You could get that by using the tag search page. A good algorithm takes multiple indicators in various weights to determine similar stories so there should be much less results. Good CF algorithms are quite complex and usually custom build for each purpose.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@samsonjas

Most romantic stories are not tagged as romantic though.

That's the author's fault, not SOL's.

Many years ago, I designed a system for something new at the time โ€” credit scoring (to assist the New Accounts department in approving whether or not to give someone a credit card).

It was based on statistics. The user plugged in numbers to 6 questions (like how long the applicant lived in their current home) and it came out with the score. Above that score: give him a card. Below it: no card.

The VP of New Accounts asked me what would happen if the person entered the wrong number. I told him he would get the wrong score. That wasn't the system's fault. It was human error. The VP blamed the system.

(btw, they didn't let me talk to users for some time after that.)

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

Some of the weird things about the scoring system are a result of the way people score stories.
Isn't that a 'problem' for every scoring system?

The big one I was thinking about is that many people don't score a story they abandon because they don't like it. Those stories should get a low score. And they pretty much only score stories they like. The result is a lot of 8s, 9s, and 10s. That's why Lazeez adjusts the score.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

The big one I was thinking about is that many people don't score a story they abandon because they don't like it.

They don't score it because they have to take the extra effort to go to the last chapter before the CAN score it.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Well this is a general comparison and of course SOL is vastly better for us. The voting system there just works though. It's simple and positive and hasn't needed any secrecy. Over there it's a non-issue.

I don't personally see evidence that the extra resolution of 1-10 is effective in searches either, even if theory says it should. Perhaps the difference between "good" or even "not bad" and "most amazing" is not really significant, compared with other factors? When it's just other people's tastes after all.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

Well what I mean is that the number of reads my stories get doesn't seem related to their score. So it doesn't appear that score is much of a search criterion.

I would interpret that the other way around. The score is the value your readers put on your stories, the number of reads is just that, a number. The older the story, the higher the number of reads but that doesn't change the value that your readers put upon them. The one exception is that a story with a very high number of reads says that it's a popular story for a greater audience and that it's most likely to be a good story.
Or it has a lot of chapters which influences the number of reads.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

So the question I'm floating is whether it would be better not to have negative votes

Oh, simple question, simple answer. It is always better to allow positive and negative votes, not just one or the other.

REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

a lot of writers react badly to the negative votes

Yes that is true. What you are actually saying is those writers have an ego problem and are unable to accept criticism that does not conform to their opinion of the quality of their writing.

Personally, I think those writers would react even worse if we changed to a system where voters provided a narrative of why they liked or disliked a story.

Either vote, or don't vote.

One of the problems we currently have with voting is only a small percentage of the people who read our stories vote on them; the percentage is arrived at by a comparison of download count to vote count. Changing the method of voting is not likely to cause more people to vote.

So the question I'm floating is whether it would be better not to have negative votes, but just the option for the reader to recommend/upvote each chapter.

If I had a high download count and a very low upvote count, I would consider that to be a negative vote. A system that only has an up-vote option protects the authors from knowing how many down-votes they would have had. I believe such a system is used to protect the author's fragile ego.

because we don't need our sensitive souls protecting any more

An author with a sensitive soul will always need to have it protected. As they say, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

Replies:   joyR  Daydreamz  Keet
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

An author with a sensitive soul will always need to have it protected. As they say, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

They could always simply turn voting off and leave it that way. A more encouraging solution than suggesting they grow thicker skin or stop writing/posting.

Replies:   REP
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Yes that is a better solution.

Part of the problem is a few authors need the adulation that goes with high scores and are unable to handle the implied negative criticism of a low score. Turning off voting will protect those authors from low scores, but it will also prevent them from getting their fix from high scores.

Thus growing a thicker skin, while it may not the best solution, will allow those authors who need it to bath in the praise of high scores while ignoring the negative criticism of low scores.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

what's happened is that so many of us are sensitive snowflakes with fragile egos that the voting has become a bit secret. And as you say a low count of only-postive votes sends the same message, to everyone, but without the downside.

I'd think that a simple yes/no decision would attract more responses than having to decide which of 1-10.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

I'd think that a simple yes/no decision would attract more responses than having to decide which of 1-10.

A yes/no would maybe attract more responses but the result would be useless for both readers and especially authors.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

One of the problems we currently have with voting is only a small percentage of the people who read our stories vote on them; the percentage is arrived at by a comparison of download count to vote count. Changing the method of voting is not likely to cause more people to vote.

I wonder if/how the scores would change if every reader was forced to vote if he has read 50%+ of a story before he could open another story. I'm not proposing this should be implemented, just wondering what it would do to the vote results. Quick guess: ALL scores would be (significantly) lower.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

I wonder if/how the scores would change if every reader was forced to vote if he has read 50%+ of a story before he could open another story.

You might well find readers object to being forced to vote on a half read story. So change you idea to having to vote before accessing another story.

Likely result is a majority of readers (who don't vote now) would simply 'click through' hitting either option, some random, some one or other by habit. Whilst it is an interesting exercise, the likelihood is that the scores that result would be meaningless.

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Likely result is a majority of readers (who don't vote now) would simply 'click through' hitting either option

Yes, I know, that's why I stated that I don't propose such a change. I was just wondering what the scores would become if almost everyone voted, or at least the ones that finish a story.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

Yes, I know, that's why I stated that I don't propose such a change.

Wise man. Since Lazeez has indicated he is sick and tired of assholes bitching about the scoring system (Not an exact quote) Rumour has it that one idiot didn't take the hint. What occurred was;

The idiot bitched yet again. In response Lazeez (allegedly) entered the idiot's desktop, reached out through a space intended for a second DVD, and nailed the idiot's dick to his desk. Then a saw (blunt) appeared. The idiot begged Lazeez to please not cut off his dick. To which Lazeez (allegedly) replied, "I'm not going to, you are. I'm just going to set your computer and desk on fire...

Of course that is only rumour, but... well, there is no smoke without fire....

:)

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Of course that is only rumour, but... well, there is no smoke without fire....

:D

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

The Wattpad system allows one positive vote per chapter, binary - vote or not,

The wattpad vote is mostly a popularity vote. The wattpad voting system and comments don't hold a candle to SOL's.

Be careful how you interpret your SOL score going up or down. There are behind-the-scenes factors in the scoring calculation. For example, you can get a new 10 on a story that causes your score to go down. I've seen it.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

How can a 10 make the rating go down? The help text says a 10 is always a 10. It could coincide with a recalculation perhaps. But then, if it could, how can you say it's a better system than Wattpad?

A Wattpad vote is simply a recommendation. It can always be seen, and you get more of them if people like your chapters. Because they don't upset the authors, they don't need to be hidden. Of course Wattpad gets so many stories submitted that a lot of them get no readers, but that's a different issue, and comments are a different issue too.

A lot of my point is that often I do not know what a vote was - whether it means somebody enjoyed it, or was disappointed. But Lazeez knows of course that being a writer, if I get a 5 I'll burst into tears and message him about it :))

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

How can a 10 make the rating go down?

All of the story's raw scores (less the top and bottom 5%) go into an algorithm that determines its final score. Part of that algorithm has to do with other stories being scored in the same timeframe (I call that the fudge factor). If the other stories happen to have low scores, your score gets a boost.

Now, at a later date, you get one more vote which happens to be a 10. Your story goes through the same calculation as before, but let's say the other stories being scored at the time were all highly scored stories. That part of the algorithm (fudge factor) gives you a lower score.

So even though you got a new score of 10, it's just one of many scores that are being fed into the algorithm. From what I understand, it can be lower if the other stories being scored at the time were higher rated than the stories the last time your story was calculated.

I saw it when we were testing the new scoring system. All stories went through a recalculation when the new system was implemented. Then, to test the system, I gave my story a 10 (I hadn't scored it before that). The score went down when it was recalculated.

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Daydreamz

How can a 10 make the rating go down?

https://storiesonline.net/h/8/how-are-scores-calculated-and-how-does-scoring-work-in-general

The main cause for the effect Switch mentions is the way the top and bottom 5% of votes are cut prior to to the votes being totaled and the score averaged by the calculation on the current votes. This is because the system only deducts whole votes after the percentage is counted. For example: 99 votes are cast so the top and bottom 5% is theoretically 4.9 votes, but the system will only drop the top and bottom 4 votes. When the next vote is cast that makes in 100 votes and the 5% is now 5 votes to be dropped before calculating the average. If prior to this 100 vote you have 4 votes of 1 and 4 votes of 10 with the rest of the votes being 40 votes of 7, 50 votes of 8, and 1 vote of 9 the system will drop 4 votes of 1 and 4 votes of 10 to remove the 8 votes for a total of 44 prior to making the calculation by adding up the remaining 91 votes and averaging them. With the 100th vote is is now dropping 5 votes from each end to remove a total of 61 before calculating the average on the 90 votes. As the number of votes goes higher the number of actual votes making the difference between the 4.1 percent and the 5 percent grows.

I hope I haven't confused you too much.

Also, over the twenty years SoL has been in operation the scoring system has changed a number of times. To make it possible to relate the scores from the different system used for each period with a different scoring system the scores have been normalized with a median of 6 so they can be added together with reasonable validity of the scores being relatively valid. Thus a vote of 8 from 2001, and a vote of 8 from 2010, and a vote 8 from 2018 would have a slightly different value via the normalization process, but they would always be the same when value relative to all of the other votes during their period, scores, and stories of the same period.

edit to add: The last scoring change was made some years back so all of the stories since that change are part of the current period.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

The main cause for the effect Switch mentions is the way the top and bottom 5% of votes are cut prior to to the votes being totaled and the score averaged by the calculation on the current votes.

My example predates the top and bottom 5% change to the scoring system.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

A Wattpad vote is simply a recommendation.

It just means they liked it. Often to encourage you to post more chapters.

My time on wattpad is spent in the Industry Insider's club and sometimes the Improve Your Writing club.

I learned a lot about the publishing industry in the former. I use the latter to help young authors, but also learn about what readers like and don't like. And since wattpad has such a global membership, I use it to get foreign language translations.

I've tried reading stories there, but they are so poorly written that I can't get through them. What enlightened me most is how dirty teenage girls' minds are. I didn't know that when I was a teenager or maybe back then it was different.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Yes okay but why "just"? People liking my story and wanting more chapters is perfect! :)

Wattpad is totally different otherwise of course. Yes teenage girls - if only we'd known!! :)). But they don't discuss the voting system. It's all positive and the amount of activity on there is ridiculous.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Daydreamz

How can a 10 make the rating go down?

A 10 can never make the score go down.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

A 10 can never make the score go down.

It did on several of my stories when we were testing the new scoring system.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Switch Blayde

It did on several of my stories when we were testing the new scoring system.

It wasn't the 10. It was the recalculation that happened at the same time. An 8 would have resulted in a bigger drop. But a 10 on its own never ever makes the score drop if there was no recalculation coinciding with the vote.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

It wasn't the 10. It was the recalculation that happened at the same time.

I know it was the recalculation. I thought every time a story gets a new vote it's recalculated.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Switch Blayde

No, not that recalculation. The recalculation happens twice per day and it recalculates the general median that stories are compared to.

On average the median seem to change once every 6 months (up 0.01 or down 0.01). So the odd of a story's score dropping with a 10 is that if the recalculation happened right before the vote and changed the median up (usually by 0.01).

So odds are that would happen to each story is about twice per year and considering how stable the median has been, if it changes twice per year it's one time up and one time down and that means one time a 10 drops the score and the other time it actually boosts it.

So what you're referring to is quite a rare event.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

So what you're referring to is quite a rare event.

Got it. Thanks.

Uther_Pendragon ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Be careful how you interpret your SOL score going up or down. There are behind-the-scenes factors in the scoring calculation. For example, you can get a new 10 on a story that causes your score to go down. I've seen it.

The scoring system ccmpares your story with others at the same time.


The italicized term is, of course, impossible. You don't get 2 stories posted a the same time, much less evaluated at the same time.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Uther_Pendragon

The scoring system ccmpares your story with others at the same time.

The same time period.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

The Wattpad system sounds like a nightmare for self improvement.

Honestly, I'd kill for more negative feedback. People are really good at noticing what doesn't work moreso than they are at telling you what is working. Turn up the downvotes! Bring on the negative comments!

REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Daydreamz

but we publish hoping that our stories will be enjoyed don't we?

Yes we do. When our readers vote, they are sending us a message regarding their opinions of our stories. Lazeez's histogram for your stories show you the number of votes in each category.

The rating for stories includes a weighting factor that is based on the votes other authors received for their stories. Your stories' scores are not a simple mathematical average of the raw votes.

Lazeez has already said that he will not change the scoring system and doesn't want to discuss the issue further, so don't ask him to do so.

Some of our readers provide us with feedback. Listen to what they say. If one person tells you about something they dislike about your stories, then there are probably other readers that dislike that aspect of your writing but don't give feedback.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

If one person tells you about something they dislike about your stories, then there are probably other readers that dislike that aspect of your writing but don't give feedback.

Or that one reader's feedback was wrong. When you use Beta readers before publishing a novel you look for that. If one reader thought something was wrong (slow, confusing, etc.) then you should check it out but don't necessarily change it. But if several people say the same thing there's probably a problem.

Replies:   REP
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Or that one reader's feedback was wrong.

That is always a possibility. Of course there may also be readers with the same idea that didn't provide feedback. I take all feedback under consideration event if it doesn't seem right initially. Then I try to understand why my reader had that impression. I sometimes find that I agree with something that initially seemed wrong.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

I take all feedback under consideration

I do as well. I said, "If one reader thought something was wrong (slow, confusing, etc.) then you should check it out but don't necessarily change it." So you should check it out.

Daydreamz ๐Ÿšซ

Well it's been a good discussion, thanks. Though my main point remains unanswered I think: that I get a vote and can't tell what it was.

I remember Lazeez removing the excluded 5% scores from the histogram, after a writer complained to him about getting a 5! Lol. But clearly there had been many such lamentings and naturally he was a bit fed up with them.

Well a lot of us find downvotes upsetting of course. It's not the same as a constructive critical comment, it's just pure undiluted negativity. Not that it doesn't help flag a weak story that needs looking at again, but so does a lower rate of positive votes.

But so, perhaps one step at a time, an unintended consequence has crept in, is my proposition.

Lumpy ๐Ÿšซ

I've seen both voting and reviews mentioned as ways to get feedback, but after comment's on stories was added I've found that the best way to get immediate feedback on how a chapter plays with your audience and how people feel about your story. Reviews being almost universally positive and the weighted nature of votes are workable for people searching for stories, but for an author, turn on and read comments to get actual feedback from your audience.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

I have always found this to be the most informative for a reader:
01 - 3
02 - 1
03 - 0
04 - 0
05 - 1
06 - 3
07 - 4
08 - 10
09 - 12
10 - 8
So no average but an exact display of the different awarded scores. This makes it clear to me that the 1 voters are trolls and that it's overall a good story to read. It also tells me how many readers have voted in total so it's not based on just 3 votes. I can understand why Lazeez did not implement it this way because it needs too big a part of the display area. It wouldn't work in lists for example.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

because it needs too big a part of the display area

The score could be one of those fields you can hover a mouse over and what you're asking for can be displayed realtime in a little window that goes away when you move the mouse.

But authors are too sensitive and that's why that information isn't available to authors. Kids on wattpad constantly ask for advice on writing. I often say, "If you're going to publish your story, grow thick skin." It's advice for adults too.

Replies:   REP  Keet
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

But authors are too sensitive and that's why that information isn't available to authors.

I think you meant to say the information is only available to the author who wrote the story.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

I think you meant to say the information is only available to the author who wrote the story.

No. Authors don't see their own raw scores. They see a bar chart, but not the scores. And they don't see the top and bottom 5%.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

No. Authors don't see their own raw scores. They see a bar chart, but not the scores. And they don't see the top and bottom 5%.

I thought some authors had promised Lazeez not to bitch about scores in return for seeing their 'raw' scores..?

Also, the bar chart does display the highest number of scores of a given value, so it is easy to calculate the scores for each value. As for the 'hidden' 5%, it does not take a rocket Sรฉance to approximate them, or simply ignore them.

Replies:   Keet  Switch Blayde
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

rocket Sรฉance

Is that like the New Year fireworks?

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

Is that like the New Year fireworks?

Not exactly, but in the spirit, so to speak. :)

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@joyR

I thought some authors had promised Lazeez not to bitch about scores in return for seeing their 'raw' scores..?

I'm one of those. We don't see the raw scores. We see the bar chart with only one number (number of the tallest bar?)

I just looked at one of my stories. The top 5% is obvious. They are 10s since 10 is the second highest bar. But what are the bottom 5%? There's a smidge of 6s. So is 6 the lowest score I got or did I get 1s or 2s, etc.? A rocket scientist wouldn't know so I sure don't know.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

I'm one of those. We don't see the raw scores. We see the bar chart with only one number (number of the tallest bar?)

If you are one of those, then you are seeing the raw scores, so the 5% are included, no need to guess...

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

If you are one of those, then you are seeing the raw scores, so the 5% are included, no need to guess...

Not true.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Not true.

Hmm. So I suggested that in return for certain authors not bitching about scores, Lazeez makes the raw scores available to them.

You claim you are one of them.

I state that in that case you see the raw scores.

You now say you don't see them, so either you are mistaken, or you are NOT one of those authors.

I'm not one of those authors and I see the stats EXACTLY as you describe. (the 5% hidden) So either my belief was wrong, or you are.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

So either my belief was wrong, or you are.

I see the "VA Score" in addition to the "Score" next to my stories. That's the raw average (I don't know if the 5% is included or not). That's what authors got when we agreed not to bitch about the scoring system.

I thought the bar chart was also part of that, but if you also see it, it's for everyone. If you see the "VA Score" then either I'm wrong or you are also being given that privilege.

Although we see the raw score average (VA Score), we don't see the raw individual scores.

I don't look at scores other than when I first post a story so I'm not familiar with them. But when I look at them I look at the VA Score.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

If you see the "VA Score" then either I'm wrong or you are also being given that privilege.

Nope, no 'VA score" visible to me.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Nope, no 'VA score" visible to me.

I know that was given to me when I swore my oath. I thought the bar chart too. So you have those privileges, or Lazeez eventually gave them to everyone.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

I thought the bar chart too.

As far as I'm aware every author sees the bar chart. So presumably only those who 'swore the oath' get the 'VA score' which would suggest your bar chart displays all votes, without the 5% deducted.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

your bar chart displays all votes, without the 5% deducted.

I'm 99.9% sure the 5% is deducted before the bar chart is generated.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

I'm 99.9% sure the 5% is deducted before the bar chart is generated.

One way to know for sure...

But I'm not going to pester Lazeez for anything score related.

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

But authors are too sensitive and that's why that information isn't available to authors.

Maybe some are, but like me an author can determine from my example that the 1's are from trolls. No reason to be sensitive about that. Another advantage is that there's no formula needed. Just plain numbers of votes.

Jason Samson ๐Ÿšซ

The problem I have with the scores are that they aren't a very good indicator of whether I will enjoy the story.

Sure the 8s and 9s are well worth it. I've started reading pretty much all of those. Excellent mostly, and even those stories I didn't enjoy from a plot perspective were obviously well written.

No, my gripe is that a lot of excellent stories have low scores! A story in the high sixes or low sevens may well be both excellently written and appealing to me.

I've said it a thousand times, recommendation systems are a solved problem and it would be beyond trivial for this website to show me stories that, based on my and your voting histories, I haven't yet read but would probably like. Keep the voting 1 to 10, but skip showing scores and instead use an off-the-shelf recommendation system.

Replies:   joyR  Ernest Bywater  Redsliver
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Jason Samson

I've said it a thousand times, recommendation systems are a solved problem

A thousand.. Exactly..??

How would a recommendation system be of more help? For example, a writer posts well written stories that contain a kink enjoyed only by a small percentage of readers, the scores are relatively few, might be low of high, depending on how many morons down vote it due to the clearly marked content.

Same author, same story, few recommend, maybe they don't want their 'name' attached to stories with that kink, add those who trash the story just to vent their ire on that kink.

In both cases the result isn't representative of the story, at least in your subjective view. Or maybe it is, again because of your subjective view.

Unless you desire to be told by other what you should enjoy, howe can any system take the views of others and serve up only what you desire, in toto.

There is only one tried and tested method that is 100% accurate to locate a story you will enjoy. Read it...!!

If you enjoy it, try other stories by the same author, if you don't enjoy it, stop reading it.

Simple but effective, yet seemingly a concept too difficult for many to grasp.

Replies:   Jason Samson
Jason Samson ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

I'm a prolific reader. I've started to read hundreds of stories, giving them a chance. I've finished and voted on probably nearly a hundred too.

So how do I find them? I've been down the sort-by-score list. I've done category search. I've looked down the author pages for those authors I've discovered and enjoyed. I've looked at old threads in the forum, I've blogged and asked for recommendations. I've done it all, and I'm currently just hitting the "random" button.

And I keep coming across stories that I haven't read by authors I don't recognize that are excellent. Below 8, score is a poor indicator in my opinion, and I've sampled a lot of stories to base this conclusion on.

The beauty of mathematical recommendation systems is that they help you find stories with your fetish whilst also making the trolls impotent. A recommendation system that looks at what others who vote like you also liked is just making it so trolls make recommendations to each other instead of polluting the results of those with mainstream or refined tastes.

I've worked a lot with the math and know people who do it for real and it's just an obvious tried and tested solution. When you see it working badly on some crappy webshop it's not a maths failure, it's a programmer failure.

Sol has such a massive amount of votes recorded that the recommendations a normal algorithm like slope1 would make would be really useful to all users.

Replies:   Redsliver  Switch Blayde
Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Jason Samson

also making the trolls impotent.

Has anyone had a trolling problem on this site? I definitely haven't.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

Has anyone had a trolling problem on this site? I definitely haven't.

It was a very significant problem until Lazeez changed the scoring system to eliminate their effect on the scores via the 5% cut method. The most common troll method was to vote 1 on a story with a tag or author they didn't like without actually reading the story. Once it became clear this 1 vote process wasn't having a noticeable effect many of them stopped their troll activities and went to other places where they could get a response from their troll activities. Since the change was many years ago any author who hadn't been trolled by then is unlikely to have been hit since, and if they were the current system would make a minor number of hits invisible to them.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Sounds like the system works.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Jason Samson

Below 8, score is a poor indicator in my opinion, and I've sampled a lot of stories to base this conclusion on.

I don't have any story with a score of 8 or higher. The raw scores are all in the 8's or close to it but not the score that is displayed.

My stories aren't for everyone, but if someone only reads stories with a score of 8 or higher they will miss out on good stories. And there are plenty of stories rated over 8 that aren't good.

I prefer to sample a story rather than go by the score. I can usually tell the bad ones right away and stop reading. But that's a problem for someone who reads a lot of stories on SOL and only gets (I think) 10 a day. Too bad SOL doesn't have a sample to read for each story, like the first n%.

Replies:   Keet  madnige  helmut_meukel  joyR
Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

My stories aren't for everyone, but if someone only reads stories with a score of 8 or higher they will miss out on good stories. And there are plenty of stories rated over 8 that aren't good.

Only reading stories with a score above 8 would indeed leave a lot of very good stories unread. But it's not only the score. It's also the description and the tags that play a role in the process of determining to read or not read a story. The lower the score the more important the description and tags become, at least for me.

madnige ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

But that's a problem for someone who reads a lot of stories on SOL and only gets (I think) 10 a day.

It's 16 a day

Too bad SOL doesn't have a sample to read for each story, like the first n%.

There is, I think - if you are logged in, the limit applies and you get an error page for any stories opened, BUT, if you are LOGGED OUT you get a sample of a portion of the story - I've seen ten chapters on a larger story. This may apply only if there is no SOL cookie at all as it was on a new install I noticed it, but if so you should be able to delete SOL's cookies to get there. This may apply to just premier-only stories, I don't remember, but it's worth checking.

helmut_meukel ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

And there are plenty of stories rated over 8 that aren't good.

There is a saying "Eat shit. Billions of flies can't err."
Maybe many of those flies voted these stories so high. ;-)

HM.

joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

And there are plenty of stories rated over 8 that aren't good.

I agree, there are also many stories with low scores that deserve high scores.

But scores are subjective and only a small percentage of readers vote, so whilst you may or may not agree with a story's score, it isn't representative of all or even a majority of readers opinions.

Some look at the Mona Lisa and see an enigmatic smile, others see a young woman wishing Leonardo would hurry up and let her go because she's desperate to pee...

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

I agree, there are also many stories with low scores that deserve high scores.

But the opposite isn't true. I don't ever remember a story with a real low score (like 4 or below) that was any good.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

But the opposite isn't true. I don't ever remember a story with a real low score (like 4 or below) that was any good.

If that is true, what you are claiming is that a large number of voters overrate stories, but none underrate them. Curious.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

others see a young woman wishing Leonardo would hurry up and let her go because she's desperate to pee...

And here I always thought she was constipated.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

And here I always thought she was constipated.

You have obviously only seen the cropped version...

For the complete picture see here.

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@Jason Samson

recommendation systems are a solved problem and it would be beyond trivial

There are two significant recommendation systems in place already.

1. Each author has the ability to recommend stories as their favorite stories, so just check the story list pages of authors whose work you like.

2. At the end of each story there's a list of other stories based on the same tags as in the story you just read.

A third option is to go to the Story Recommendation forum page and ask for some.

https://storiesonline.net/d/s9/story-recommendations

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Jason Samson

Sure the 8s and 9s are well worth it. I've started reading pretty much all of those. Excellent mostly, and even those stories I didn't enjoy from a plot perspective were obviously well written.

No, my gripe is that a lot of excellent stories have low scores! A story in the high sixes or low sevens may well be both excellently written and appealing to me.

As a writer of high 6s and low 7s, I take your point. Even more than the 8s and 9s, which time and again I find them rather bland, I've found the best stories are the high 7s. They do something outside the expectations of a subset of the audience, or they have a kink that turns off a different subset.

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

In regards to the thread drift to scores and readers:

I'm a very prolific reader of stories on SoL, Fine Stories, SciFi, other sites, and the huge pile of books in my personal library. As for the SoL, FS, and SF stories I decide on what to read based on the story description, the story codes, and the story size. I never involve the score in my decision on what to read. However, I do vote on every story I finish reading. I've found some very good stories which I enjoyed that had low scores for some reason - I found this out when the system gave me back the score after voting. I look at how much I enjoyed the story and not how well it was written or the technical qualities of the writing.

However, when I'm rereading my own stories it's a different matter because I also look very closely at the technical aspects of what I've written as well as how much I enjoy it again when I already know it so well. I'm not sure if I have the award for the most post first publication of stories on SoL per story or not, but I'm sure I must be one of the top three if not the top position because every time I improve my style to make for smoother reading I revise all of the stories, and I also fix any errors reported to me - that's a lot of changes over time.

edit to add: I don't see a VA score, but I never asked for the extra access as I never worry about the scores as either a reader or writer. I only ever look at them when we have theses sorts of discussions.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

I never worry about the scores as either a reader or writer. I only ever look at them when we have theses sorts of discussions.

Me too. I forgot all about the VA Score. However, I do look at the score for a few days after posting a new story.

Replies:   REP
REP ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

On my bar chart I only see the vote count of the highest bar. As I recall from the discussion in another thread, Lazeez's offer was to display the vote count of each bar. I think that is what you are referring to as the VA score. If my understanding is correct and you have given your oath to Lazeez and aren't seeing those numbers, perhaps you should ask Lazeez.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@REP

Lazeez's offer was to display the vote count of each bar. I think that is what you are referring to as the VA score.

No and no.

I don't remember there ever being a count on top of each bar. Does anyone see that?

The VA Score is on the story stats page (Name, Size, Week, Votes, Score, Cmnt, VA Score).

richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

The VA score would be the votes received in Virginia. Or maybe by the Veterans Administration. Normally a score is 20. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address "Four score and seven years ago".

There are a number of on-line definitions
"mark, grade, score(noun)

a number or letter indicating quality (especially of a student's performance)

"she made good marks in algebra"; "grade A milk"; "what was your score on your homework?"

score, musical score(noun)

a written form of a musical composition; parts for different instruments appear on separate staves on large pages

"he studied the score of the sonata"

score(noun)

a number that expresses the accomplishment of a team or an individual in a game or contest

"the score was 7 to 0"

score(noun)

a set of twenty members

"a score were sent out but only one returned"

score, account(noun)

grounds

"don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful"

score(noun)

the facts about an actual situation

"he didn't know the score"

score(noun)

an amount due (as at a restaurant or bar)

"add it to my score and I'll settle later"

score, scotch(noun)

a slight surface cut (especially a notch that is made to keep a tally)

grudge, score, grievance(noun)

a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation

"holding a grudge"; "settling a score"

score(noun)

the act of scoring in a game or sport

"the winning score came with less than a minute left to play"

sexual conquest, score(verb)

a seduction culminating in sexual intercourse

"calling his seduction of the girl a `score' was a typical example of male slang"

score, hit, tally, rack up(verb)

gain points in a game

"The home team scored many times"; "He hit a home run"; "He hit .300 in the past season"

score, nock, mark(verb)

make small marks into the surface of

"score the clay before firing it"

score, mark(verb)

make underscoring marks

score(verb)

write a musical score for

seduce, score, make(verb)

induce to have sex

"Harry finally seduced Sally"; "Did you score last night?"; "Harry made Sally"

score(verb)

get a certain number or letter indicating quality or performance

"She scored high on the SAT"; "He scored a 200"

grade, score, mark(verb)

assign a grade or rank to, according to one's evaluation

"grade tests"; "score the SAT essays"; "mark homework"

Maybe the "grudge, score, grievance" meaning explains the reason authors don't want to hear their score.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@richardshagrin

Maybe the "grudge, score, grievance" meaning explains the reason authors don't want to hear their score.

Once again your post leaves us better informed but no wiser.

Then again, perhaps authors don't wish to be harnessed to their scores..??

Rancid harsh rig = Richard Shagrin

So actually it's all YOUR fault...!!!

ETA

For those interested;

Ernest Bywater = See rant try web

And to lower the tone :)

Awnlee jawking = We wank I jangle

richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

Not scoring an abandoned story (one where the reader did not complete reading the story) is often a logical choice. How much of the story should be read to give others a reasonable score? I didn't finish reading it is not always a reason to give it the equivalent of a "1". It may be a better than average story but other life events may prevent reading the ending of the story. On the other hand if the reader quits the story after the first couple of paragraphs, how could the reader form an accurate review number?

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@richardshagrin

I didn't finish reading it is not always a reason to give it the equivalent of a "1".

Very true, however, the reason for abandoning the story may be the very reason you give it a 1 vote. I've only ever given a story I abandoned a 1 vote on one occasion, and it's also the main reason I gave up on reading stories as they posted. The story was very good for several episodes and then the author introduced some extreme torture that was never coded for in the story. I got half way through that chapter when the very graphically detailed torture made me give on on the story, skip to the end of the chapter, give it a 1 vote, and place that author on my 'never read' list. Some months later when the story turned up on the concluded stories list I checked the codes on it and it was not coded to include the torture at all. That was 7 years ago and I just checked the story to find it now has the torture code added. If that had been on the story at the start I would never have read the story or given it the 1 vote, but it earned the 1 vote by being deceptive in the coding at the time I read it.

Replies:   joyR
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

If that had been on the story at the start I would never have read the story or given it the 1 vote, but it earned the 1 vote by being deceptive in the coding at the time I read it.

As stated before, I really don't care how anyone chooses to score a story. That said, basing a score on how well a story is coded isn't actually scoring the story, it is punishing the author for an error, which could be an oversight.

I doubt I'm alone in disliking stores that have a description a fraction of the size a the huge block of codes. But I don't down-score a story for it because as above, it's not actually part of the story.

Similarly, I know you go to a great deal of effort in the layout of your chapters etc, but again, I don't mark up (or down) for pleasing layout, I mark the story.

My $0.02

(And no, I'm not suggesting I'm right, or that others should emulate me. Nor am I suggesting your (or anyone else's) scoring is wrong or any more or less valid.)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

basing a score on how well a story is coded isn't actually scoring the story, it is punishing the author for an error, which could be an oversight.

No, it is punishing the author for not coding the story correctly in attempt to get in readers who would've avoided reading the story if he did it properly. Because the vote is on how much you like the story to be hit with something you find extremely distasteful to the point you don't like the story at all, a 1 vote is an appropriate response.

I agree in that you should not include a code that covers a single short scene unless it's something that could be a major squick, but to not code for a number of scenes running into hundreds of words on a major squick is not an accidental missing of a minor matter. When I complained to the author he said that chapter was the set up for a change in the main character's behaviour for the next several chapters, so there was no way it was accidental.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@richardshagrin

I didn't finish reading it is not always a reason to give it the equivalent of a "1"

Doesn't have to be a 1. A 1 is "You call this a story?" There probably aren't too many of those. It could be "hated it" (2), "pretty bad" (3), "not good" (4), or even a higher score. I may get bored reading a story and give up on it. That doesn't mean it's a 1. It might even be "not bad" (6). Just not "good" or higher. If it was "good" I'd have wanted to know what happens at the end and finished it.

samsonjas ๐Ÿšซ

Web shop and online store are the same thing. Web shop might be more a uk term perhaps.

Lazeez, if you don't mind sending me the voting history I'd be happy to show what collab filtering makes of it. You know my email ;)

joyR ๐Ÿšซ

Whilst we are discussing art, the following might be of interest;

In July of 1822 to french artists, Louis Daguerre and Charles Marie Bouton overindulged at a newly opened curry house, later the excess of curry and lager they consumed caused the usual results, of which they were until then unaware. The resultant unannounced and explosive diarrhoea caught them and the gallery owner by surprise. To cover their mishap and escape the owner's wrath they claimed they had invented a new style of trompe l'oeil that was in effect a 3D representation.

Thus was the diorama invented.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

Serendipity, perhaps?

redthumb ๐Ÿšซ

I'm not sure how you could expect readers to score a story in a specific way. The reviewers can't agree on scores for plot and/or technical quality. I admit that I 'cherry picked' some stories to show my point. One reviewer agve a story a 10-10 while another gave a 7-7. Another story was a 9-6 and a 10-10. One story had a technical quality of 8, 9, and 10 (the 10 'didn't remember any flaws in the story, while the 8 said that it was fairly good with a few obvious wrrors, but still better than average).

oldegrump ๐Ÿšซ

This may not really apply here, but I have two different commenters that say I write crap, but they read and comment on every story. If you turn your comments section on, take the creative negatives as criticism, not dislikes, but ways to improve your craft.

The two people that dislike my stories have commented on over 15 stories, but keep reading. These two offer no ways to improve my writing, they just don't like my stories. (and still, they read them)

If turn comments on, some people that like your stories will tell you.

CAT the Oldgrump

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@oldegrump

If you turn your comments section on, take the creative negatives as criticism, not dislikes, but ways to improve your craft.

The comments section was added by Lazeez to allow the readers to talk about the stories, and that's why I turn them on for the readers to have their discussion, but I only read them if someone sends me an email pointing out a specific comment I should respond to as I see it as a service for the readers. Than can use the SoL message system to talk to me, and many do.

Michael Loucks ๐Ÿšซ

@oldegrump

The two people that dislike my stories have commented on over 15 stories, but keep reading. These two offer no ways to improve my writing, they just don't like my stories. (and still, they read them)

I've had lengthy correspondence with people who dislike my characters and even dislike main themes who continue to read, comment, and write me. I suspect they give low scores, but I don't know and don't care.

To paraphrase Dale Earnhardt - doesn't mater if the fans cheer or the fans boo, it means they're engaged with you. When they're quiet, then it's time to hang it up because they don't care.

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