For a story, what would be an appropriate age to introduce a small girl to shotguns, and what size shotgun? The small girl, in this case, even as an adult, never quite reaches the height of 5 feet or weight of 100 pounds.
I've heard of a blunderbuss, a 12-gauge, a 20-gauge and a .410, but have no idea what any of that means in terms of how much it would kick or what it would be useful for (shooting squirrels? rabbits? an attacking monster? target practice?)
A blunderbuss is a particular style of short barreled muzzle loading black powder shot gun.
https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=488
Gauge for shotguns works like this: The gauge number is the number of bore sized round ball projectiles that can be made from 1 pound of lead, so the bigger the gauge, the smaller the shotgun.
Today you can get shotguns in Gauges 10, 12, 16, and 20, though it is getting harder to find new 10 gauges.
.410 is a special case, it's actually a caliber, not a gauge (bore diameter is .41 inches). This is the smallest size shotgun readily available today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.410_bore
For a story, what would be an appropriate age to introduce a small girl to shotguns, and what size shotgun?
Depends on the time period and context.
Modern, you can run into legal issues with even supervised temoporary possession of firearms by children below certain ages. 12 is probably a good age for introduction under adult supervision.
Historically, in the US, in frontier / rural areas children, particularly male children could be introduced to low caliber firearms as early as age 6.
In the days of muzzle loaders, there were relatively small bore* guns built to scale for children.
Personally I would not recommend starting a child (of either gender) under the age of 16 that is small for their age on a shotgun larger than a .410. And I'd probably recommend starting with a .22 rifle rather than a shotgun.
* muzzle loaders used by adults went from .50 to .78 and military muskets were pretty much all .78 A children's gun might be as small as .30
I agree with a lot of what DS has to say above. Another factor to you need to know is the length of the shotgun shell as they come in 2.5 inch, 3 inch, and 3.5 inch with the number of pellets and amount of propellant varying between the lengths. By doing a home load of the shell you can create a shell with a lower propellant charge that has less recoil, but it would also have less effective range. Almost forgot, the pellet size varies a lot as well, and that affects the effective range and level of damage as well.
However, a lot also depends on the reason for you wanting the girl to have the shotgun.
There are some .45 handguns into which you can safely load a .410 cartridge for use, the Bond Arms Defender series Derringer style gun is one such gun often used that way as an anti-snake defense gun. You need to be aware of the shell size as against the cartridge size when selecting a handgun for this purpose as many won't accept a .410 shell due to the length of the shell as against the length of the cartridge it's designed to use.
There are some .45 handguns into which you can safely load a .410 cartridge for use
This is true, but firing shot shells through a rifled barrel will eventually damaging the rifling so it will be less effective with a normal .45 round.
IIRC, there are purpose built .410 pistols with smooth bore barrels.
IIRC, there are purpose built .410 pistols with smooth bore barrels.
I've not seen any advertised as such. The reason the Bond Arms Defender and Snake Slayer series gets away with having a barrel under 18 inches without needing a special FTA approval is because they're a rifled handgun without any factory modification when used as a .410 shotgun. And yes, you don't expect to be using a .45 as a .45 after you've used it as a .410 shotgun for a while, that's why most people decide on the usage before they but.
I've not seen any advertised as such.
They aren't currently available in the US, but there were several models available in the early 20th century before the passage of the NFA in 1934 outlawed short barreled shotguns.
Additionally, the NFA defines a shotgun as a long gun designed to be fired from the shoulder, so the short barreled shot gun prohibition may not even apply to a purpose made .410 pistol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun#Legal_restrictions
In addition, some firearm types that would normally be considered to fall into the Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) category might not legally be considered to be a SBS. A shotgun is legally defined as a shoulder-mounted firearm that fires shot. Shotguns and shotgun receivers that have never had a buttstock of any type installed are not shotguns, as they cannot be shoulder mounted. Therefore, cutting one of these below the 18" barrel and/or 26" overall length cannot produce a SBS as the firearm was never a shotgun. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives recognizes these firearms as being a smooth bore handgun which is an Any Other Weapon (AOW). Unlike an SBS, an AOW only carries a $5.00 tax and can be moved interstate without Federal approval.
In general terms (re: the 40's & 50's) a 12-ga shotgun was considered a man's gun; the 20-ga as more of a woman's gun (lighter, less recoil) and the .410 was a boy's gun for small game and birds. Also it was very popular as a 'survival' gun with the dual-barrel .22/.410 arrangement. Typically, a youth would be started with a .20-ga for duck or game bird shooting. For those who've not actually fired a shotgun, the recoil of a 12-ga is a very unpleasant experience for the first-time shooter, especially a small-frame person. As the the 10-ga, that's getting into the category of a long-barrelled, tight-choked weapon used for such things as goose guns with long-range, concentrated knock-down shot patterns.
Again, your opinion/experience will most certainly vary, but that's my experience from the 40's & 50's decades, and prior history.
Where in the 1800's the 12ga was considered a gun for women and children while men used a 10ga.
The idea that a 20ga kicks less is not always true, given the same shot weight the 12ga will kick less due to lower pressures and better gas expansion ratios.
Thank you for those points of contention. (Going back to my rocking chair and my shawl, now.)
Since the OP has not said when the story is set in, I added that to prevent an anachronism. 19th century people should not act like 20th or 21st century people because they are not.
The idea that a 20ga kicks less is not always true,
True, but most people bought and used shells of the same length and the same proportional weights of propellant and shot. Thus a 3 inch 12 ga would have a bigger kick than a 3 inch 20 ga simply because the 20 ga shell WOULD have less propellant and shot in it compared to the 12 ga. Which is why I mentioned those items and the shell size earlier.
www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html
Is a chart of the different shot pellet sizes and other information that's helpful with information on shells and performance differences with pellet numbers.
Also it was very popular as a 'survival' gun with the dual-barrel .22/.410 arrangement.
Does that mean the weapon was half shotgun (.410) and half rifle (.22), with the two barrels side by side? And what about the arrangement makes it a "survival" gun?
Over / Under the barrels are above (.22) and below (.410)
Easy to carry, easy to carry plenty of ammo (both cartridges are small), one make at one time was issued as survival guns for aircraft.
Over / Under the barrels are above (.22) and below (.410)
Easy to carry, easy to carry plenty of ammo (both cartridges are small), one make at one time was issued as survival guns for aircraft.
The original M6 aircrew survival weapon was never a .22LR. It was a .22 hornet/.410. Springfield did make aftermarket versions for civilian use in .22LR.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M6_Aircrew_Survival_Weapon
And what about the arrangement makes it a "survival" gun?
If there is a ubiquitous cartridge/round for a firearm, it's a .22LR which can be found in many countries. The .22LR can take down everything from rabbits to deer with proper shot placement. You can carry 100 rounds of it in a very small space as well.
The .410 can take down most fowl as well, and with a slug, many large game species.
Does that mean the weapon was half shotgun (.410) and half rifle (.22), with the two barrels side by side?
No, from what I've read, double barrel rifle/shotgun combos (.22/.410 isn't the only thing out there for this) are always over/under, generally with the rifle barrel on top.
No one else has addressed it, but you'd be better off focusing on usage than arbitrarily picking a firearm for your story. Small boys typically start with pellet guns for shooting at (and rarely hitting) squirrels and mice, but unless she has brothers, it's unlikely a girl would be interested in killing random creatures.
Typically shotguns are reserved for waterfowl (wide dispersal,, small pellets and less chance of hitting others due to limited distance). This is usually how girls are introduced to shotguns/hunting.
If they're after doves (or other small, individual birds), they'd typically go for a smaller rifle, which also allows them to start off with key shooting).
If the interest is self defense, shotguns are easier to master for newbies (again, due to the wide dispersal and limited range). If they're paranoid about sustained attacks, she'd probably get a smaller rifle, though would probably start younger loading shells for older shooters. And of course, you can hunt a wider variety of animals with a rifle.
The key for young children with any two-handed firearms is pressing the stock hard against their shoulder. Most preteens sport respectabbruiser because they're afraid of the gun and don't hold it confidently.
However, a lot also depends on the reason for you wanting the girl to have the shotgun.
Ernest said the above and it is an important point. What someone is shooting at is the key to selecting a shotgun gauge and load.
The load for a gauge is a combination of the size of the shot, the number of pellets in the shell, and the amount of gun powder. There are many factors affecting the shot size and number of pellets in the shell. The amount of powder is related to how far away the target is and the amount of power the pellets need when they hit the target.
For uses needing a low-power load, you can usually select a load for any gauge that will give you the same or similar results. Obviously for the same size pellets, the smaller the gauge, the fewer pellets and powder in the shell.
The larger gauges are also suitable for uses requiring a high-power load that the smaller gauges cannot handle.
Recoil is directly related to the power of the load. I used to shoot trap and skeet. These are low-power loads and I was a fairly large person, so I was able to run through a dozen or more boxes with no problem. That might have been a problem for someone having a small frame and body weight. The high power loads are usually for hunting. I never went hunting with a shotgun, so I never had a reason to fire the more powerful loads.
The load for a gauge is a combination of the size of the shot, the number of pellets in the shell, and the amount of gun powder. There are many factors affecting the shot size and number of pellets in the shell. The amount of powder is related to how far away the target is and the amount of power the pellets need when they hit the target.
Here is a list of pellet sizes
To stop a charging boar I would rather use a 12 gauge with triple-aught buck than a rifle – less chance to miss.
HM.
To stop a charging boar I would rather use a 12 gauge with triple-aught buck than a rifle – less chance to miss.
Sure, less chance to miss, but also less chance for a one shot kill.
From what I've read, a lot of feral hog hunters in the US southwest are going to AR-15s in one of 456SOCOM, 6.5mm Grendel, or .50 Beowulf.
To stop a charging boar I would rather use a 12 gauge with triple-aught buck than a rifle – less chance to miss.
I meant coming out of the brush, charging at me!
Sure, less chance to miss, but also less chance for a one shot kill.
I guess my chances at stopping the boar and survive is way better with a shotgun than any rifle. With a distance of only a few yards and the disadvantage of surprise aiming any rifle is problematic. I don't know if I would be coldblooded enough to really aim and hit.
Of course if it's a rifle set on full auto it would be better than any shotgun.
HM.
guess my chances at stopping the boar and survive is way better with a shotgun than any rifle. With a distance of only a few yards and the disadvantage of surprise aiming any rifle is problematic. I don't know if I would be coldblooded enough to really aim and hit.
Of course if it's a rifle set on full auto it would be better than any shotgun.
Only thing a full auto will likely get you is killed or badly injured. The same applies for most shotguns or any other long gun in a charging situation. That's before we get to the fact that everywhere I'm aware of, it's illegal to hunt with a full auto. It'd be kind of stupid to lose your NFA stamp because you hunted with a full auto, not to mention loss of property and fines.
It happens too fast to bring a long gun to bear. At least the ones I've experienced in east TN. If a person is stupid enough to wait on a charge after seeing them first, they are probably dumb enough to wait or try something equally moronic.
The range on a normal shot in these parts is 50 yards on average, but a charge can happen while you're in transit to and from your blind at much shorter ranges. For that, you'd better have a handgun at ready.
I can't speak for anywhere else, so you'll have to get the specifics for somewhere else from someone else.
I have two of the options. One is a pistol, the other is a rifle. The pistol gets under the NFA tag by being slightly rifled and being capable of firing the .45LC cartridge. The 'rifle' is capable of the .45LC and .410 but stays away from conflict by having a barrel 18.5" long.
I have three NFA stamps. Two for autos, and one for a silencer. I have the autos on consignment with an NFA dealer as they are pointless for my current needs. Both are under contract waiting on NFA approval for their new owners. My FN .45 has the silencer. It's purpose is simply to allow me to shoot without going deaf or disturbing anyone nearby.
It is a royal pain in the ass to get or sell anything NFA. I don't recommend it to anyone just now getting into it.
As for arming a little girl, my mother was taught at the age of eight with a .410. My sisters got the same treatment around the same age. Only one of them carried on with any form of shotgun after, and that was with a 20 gauge.
Size can be mitigated however. My wife is 5'2" and shoots a .45ACP, .44 Mag, 12 gauge, and a .308.
One of the dumbest things I've witnessed for teaching a girl or woman to shoot is to teach them to shoot like a man. Their muscles, skeleton, center of gravity, and all around build is different. They can shoot damn near any gun a man can, but they have to do so differently than a man.
The shortest description I can put to it is, where a man power's the recoil, a woman flows with it. Even when taught wrongly, if she shoots a lot, she'll end up adapting to flow rather than power.
Even when taught wrongly, if she shoots a lot, she'll end up adapting to flow rather than power.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
A good thing. There have been several reports of inexperienced women killed trying to shoot hard kicking guns such as the S&W 500 and 460. They hold their body rigid, the gun gets away from them, rotates back and points at their head. At the same time their finger is thrown from the trigger by recoil, allowing the cylinder to cycle, but they are still clenching their finger, which lands on the trigger again...
A woman with enough wrist strength can fire the gun, allow the recoil to flow down their harm and into their torso. The gun will rise, along with their arms, but reacquiring the correct stance / sight picture will occur naturally.
Or they can work out, squeezing tennis balls and doing martial arts will place the top ten percent of women above the bottom ten percent of men. There is a reason USPSA women shooters tend to shoot Open Division guns with gas compensators.
Radagast gave a good answer to this question.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Even when taught wrongly, if she shoots a lot, she'll end up adapting to flow rather than power.
It's better if they had been taught right to begin with.
Sadly, most of them end up learning it from a male who didn't think about the physiological differences in the genders. As Radagast pointed out, in extreme cases, it has gotten them killed.
There are youtube videos where some jackass handed his untrained girlfriend a powerful firearm to shoot just to video them losing control of the firearm. If I were king for a day, those jackasses would be jailed for wreckless endangerment.
Dominion's Son wrote:
"Gauge for shotguns works like this: The gauge number is the number of bore sized round ball projectiles that can be made from 1 pound of lead, so the bigger the gauge, the smaller the shotgun."
And REP wrote:
"Obviously for the same size pellets, the smaller the gauge, the fewer pellets and powder in the shell.
The larger gauges are also suitable for uses requiring a high-power load that the smaller gauges cannot handle."
The two responses sound contradictory to me. Am I reading one of them wrong?
Am I reading one of them wrong?
DS's post was about how the gauge of a shotgun's barrel was determined.
My post was about factors that affected the load of the shells that are used with different gauges of shotguns.
Two different but related topics.
The two responses sound contradictory to me. Am I reading one of them wrong?
You are miss comprehending the relationship between them.
My comment was about determining the gauge of a shotgun.
However, shotguns are not generally used with a single projectile, and when it is done these days, it's not done with a round ball.
Shot guns are most commonly used with "shot" The shell is filled with many projectiles that are much smaller than bore diameter.
A 20 gauge has a bore diameter around 15.6 mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_(pellet)
By contrast the shot ranges in size from 9.65mm pellets for the largest size of buckshot down to just 1mm pellets for the smallest size(often called dust shot).
Modern times in the USA? Remington make a 'Youth Model 11-87' variant of their venerable semi-automatic shotgun. Ditto for their pump action Model 870. These are guns with shortened stocks and barrels, chambered in 20 gauge.
Age that a fit kid could swing one? 12 to 14, being realistic for a boy, perhaps 14 to 16 for a girl.
Below that age a .410 gauge coach gun, that is a short barreled, side by side double barrel shotgun, would be the easiest and therefore safest for them to handle, especially as a'house gun'. Exposed hammers would be out. Just one more thing to slip or catch on.
For hunting then a .410 with full length barrels would be a possibility, these were once common, but have long disappeared from most catalogues.
The .410 is sometimes called a 'snake charmer', for very short range disposal of snakes in the farm yard. The limited amount of shot in the cartridge means the pattern becomes dispersed quickly as distance increases, makng them ineffective for wing shooting birds or running rabbits.
if you are willing to consider other options, author Michael Z Williamson rather famously provided his pre-teen daughter with an AR15 with collapsible stock as her first gun. Low recoil, relatively light weight, and length of pull from butt to trigger was adjustible for her height and reach as she grew up.
http://blog.olegvolk.net/2013/07/01/they-grow-up-so-fast/
A bolt action .22 rifle is usually considered the starting point for kids with guns, shooting with scouts, small bore rifle clubs or at side show alley(many years ago). Currently there is a minature rifle for preteens called the Cricket and a few of the better quality manufacturers such as CZ make cut down versions of their adult rifles for early teens.
The Bond Arms derringer mentioned by Ernest is heavy, has rudimentary sights and a truly awful trigger. I doubt a child could pull it without using both index fingers.
If the story setting is in the period from the 1880s to 1950s, then the most commonly found firearm would be a single shot break action shotgun, such as the Harrington & Richardson Topper, which has been manufactured since the 1890s.
The Savage Model 24 is another over under in multiple calibers, most commonly in .22lr / 20 gauge.
In 1977 author Robyn Davidson set off across Australia's western desert on a 1700 mile solo camel ride from Alice Springs to the Indian Ocean. She carried a Savage on that trip, later giving it to an aboriginal elder who helped her.
The book about her trip is "Tracks".
In line with what a lot of people are saying on here, the time period and location determines what's good. Year is pretty irrelevant if you're somewhere like here in Oklahoma, where even today, folks teach their kids to shoot young.
I grew up in rural Indiana. My older brother and sister learned on a .410 in the mid-50's when they were around 7 or 8, so did I a decade later. We'd go squirrel or rabbit hunting with that, Dad would carry his 16 gauge goose gun.
Later on my brother got a nice Mossberg 12 gauge pump, but the loads he used were even too heavy for me.
Bit of trivia. Historically there were some really big shotguns, as big a 1.5 gauge. A few were military, wall guns for fortifications.
However, the most common form for vary large shot guns was the punt gun. A massive shot gun (up to 12 feet long) mounted in a small boat, typically some kind of punt, for commercial duck hunting. Most were muzzle loaders, punt guns didn't last long into the era of cartridge firing guns, as commercial hunting was outlawed in the early 20th century.
Just my own $0.02 on this.
Any weapon is nothing but a tool. The proper tool is based on the job you want to do. The OP has still not stated what the job IS.
Is it just teaching the girl to use a shotgun...and to use it against what exactly? Home defense? Quail? Deer? Snakes? Geese? Watching pretty pellets bounce off of a frozen pond? Blowing up a power transformer to watch the arc flash? (Yes, I had a misspent youth.)
Once we know the details, us gun nuts can probably come to a more satisfying answer.
As for the charging aspect: I've broken down a charging bull with a 30.06, but I had about 100yds to work with. The only boars I ever killed were with a 7.62 on full auto or one time with a mattock handle, but that wasn't in a charge. I would hate to try with a handgun, most boar skulls are THICK.
The only boars I ever killed were with a 7.62 on full auto or one time with a mattock handle, but that wasn't in a charge. I would hate to try with a handgun, most boar skulls are THICK.
Either you're confusing semiauto with auto or you've taken leave of your senses. Then again, maybe I'm missing a learning opportunity. Where is it you've hunted that a full auto was legal to hunt with? Also, you stated it was a .308. How did you stop the muzzle climb?
As for use of a handgun, I've taken several with a .44mag 300 grain bullet handload. They will put down a hog one shot.
Either you're confusing semiauto with auto or you've taken leave of your senses. Then again, maybe I'm missing a learning opportunity. Where is it you've hunted that a full auto was legal to hunt with? Also, you stated it was a .308. How did you stop the muzzle climb?
No, not confused. Pretty sure an M240 is fully auto. You can look it up on the FN website if you wish. And no one said it was legal. As stated earlier, misspent youth...military in this case.
The bull was breaking down his forelegs with a 30.06 not a .308. Three shots to take out both front legs and then a coup after it was down.
Where is it you've hunted that a full auto was legal to hunt with?
Maybe he was hunting in Afghanistan or Iraq!
Where is it you've hunted that a full auto was legal to hunt with?
Who cares about legality on a military reservation? An M-60 has plenty reach for deer that are running across the range. Sort of funny how timing works out on things like that. Would have been nice to actually enjoy the thing for dinner, damned field artillery.
Whole story - I was the range control officer for the M-60 range during our National Guard training. I'm up in the tower, we're ready for a familiarization fire, and at the edge of the wood line on the far side of the range, here's comes about an 8 point buck running in the open. Gentlemen, there's dinner if you can get him. Ready on the Left, Ready on the Right, the line, Open ... HOLY SHIT!
Right where the deer had been were three explosions. I yelled at everyone to get back off the line and on our side of the berm, while they were doing that here came three more explosions downrange, about 25 yards closer. I was out of the tower without touching the ladder and on the radio calling for a "Check Fire". Range control wanted clarification, so I told them we were the Mike 60 range and receiving artillery rounds downrange. There were also a couple of rifle ranges nearby that had also been firing, but once the artillery landed, everyone sort of immediately quit, so there was NO extra noise.
Heard a sound and looked up to see three more rounds flying overhead and landing downrange. Range Control ordered a full check fire for everyone on post. But here's the thing - by the time the artillery got the call and quit firing, they still had four flights in the air. Last rounds hit just barely on the far side of the berm my guys had been firing from.
I may have told that story on here before, I don't remember for sure.
I may have told that story on here before
I don't remember it, and that story is kind of memorable.
I don't remember it, and that story is kind of memorable.
It sure made a lasting memory for me, that's for damned sure. Oh, and no one even bothered to go down range once we got the all clear to check to see if there was anything left of the deer.
They made them freeze their guns to figure out what happened. They'd literally set them up 90 degrees off in direction. Quite a few people got demoted out of it and/or kicked out. One of the reasons was that if they'd gotten one more battery three in the air, it would have wiped out our training area and several vehicles. (We were already in a creek bed by this point.) If they'd continued with four more, they would have hit the battalion area, and wiped out an entire headquarters.
Oh, and no one even bothered to go down range once we got the all clear to check to see if there was anything left of the deer.
Sounds like the artillery very nearly got a direct hit on the buck. If there was anything left, you'd have been picking it up with tweezers and sponges. :)
Do you know what the fuck they were firing? AntiPersonell? HE? HEAP(I have no idea if they use HEAP with artillery)?
Do you know what the fuck they were firing?
I presume just standard HE rounds. Earlier in the day there'd been a mortar that ended up with a tube that one of the legs fell over while firing and it plopped an HE round right in the middle of the road about 1/4 mile up from us. And least they didn't keep dropping shells, they KNEW they'd fucked up right away.
Who cares about legality on a military reservation?
Anyone not a member of the military or on a military post.
Where and when was this incident if you don't mind saying? I've had a similar report tickling the back of my brain except it was from an arty officers pov.
Where and when was this incident if you don't mind saying? I've had a similar report tickling the back of my brain except it was from an arty officers pov.
Camp Atterbury, Indiana - early 1980's
I'm quite certain this isn't the only time field artillery ending up shooting the wrong way.
Camp Atterbury, Indiana - early 1980's
I'm quite certain this isn't the only time field artillery ending up shooting the wrong way.
The incident mentioned to me was Fort Sill early eighties.
It isn't. I'm aware of another incident in the 80s where a 105mm round landed in a main road that followed the base perimeter. Luckily it was Saturday, so no traffic. Even better, a road patrol was out filling potholes that day. They happily filled it in and kept their mouths shut in return for beer.
The officer and sargeant involved were both transferred to somewhere hot, humid and leech infested the very next week.
Back to shotguns. As we still lack guidance from PotomacBob, if he wants his small female character to go deer hunting, to get around the problem of recoil and lifting the gun, perhaps she can lay the gun then stand to the side.
A 12 pounder mountain howitzer has been used to take deer using cannister shot, which effectively made it a shotgun. Google Buckstix howitzer for the story with pics.
For a story, what would be an appropriate age to introduce a small girl to shotguns, and what size shotgun? The small girl, in this case, even as an adult, never quite reaches the height of 5 feet or weight of 100 pounds.
It seems pretty clear from the OP that "introduce a small girl to shotguns" is the objective. So it's hard to get all worked up about "what for?" So... being a rock-ribbed Ol' Fart from the bad old days, I'd start her with an old Mossberg single-barrel, single-shot .410 and let her shoot lots of tin cans off the stump; and then when she was comfortable with that, (stand behind her!) and toss tin cans into the air at different angles out in front of her to let her get an idea of shooting a moving target out of the air.
Later, when she's grown into it and comfortable with it, I'd move her up to a .20 gauge. Simple enough? Probably not. I 'spect lots & lots of flareback on this simple proposal. =GB=
Later, when she's grown into it and comfortable with it, I'd move her up to a .20 gauge. Simple enough? Probably not. I 'spect lots & lots of flareback on this simple proposal. =GB=
Don't see why. Your proposal makes more sense than any others in this string of messages.
Cheers
You're welcome. I did forget to discuss the age part. Going back (many decades!) and remembering our mispent youth in that Cascade mountain valley and hiking the ridges with my rifle I got as a gift on my 12th birthday... I felt pretty grown up. I never got into trouble with my gun. I shot a .410 frequently, and sometimes a .20 gauge along the river bottoms and nearby reed marshes for ducks. My size and weight was adequate at that age; but I hated firing a 12 gauge; it always came close to knocking me on my ass. Same for the damned .30-06 'loaner' Springfield army surplus the ol' man borrowed from the local American Legion. Flinching before pulling the trigger was my usual reaction.
So... girls. They're typically far more mature at 12 years than most boys; and their size should easily be adequate for a .410 shotgun. To teach her to become a sharp-shooter, I'd have her shoot a few thousand .22 long-rifle rounds with an old Remington clip-fed bolt action rifle (I can drive nails at 30 yards with mine) and then for a deadly shooter, I'd get her a really nice Winchester lever-action .22 magnum! Those are sweet! And I'd be far more fearful of a grimly-dedicated girl, than any skittle-brained boy.
Based on my ol' memories from the days when all us kids 12 and older had guns, hiked all the hills around with 'em, and went to school with 'em hung in the rack mounted in the rear window of the pickup (and the school authories paid no notice.)
I'd start her with an old Mossberg single-barrel, single-shot .410
Why not an old Fox .410? I recall shooting one once. It was choked down like a .22 and kicked like a mule.
One gauge that hasn't been mentioned is a 28. Not surprising and not really a candidate here unless the guy already owns one. They're rare and unless you "roll your own", ammo would break a low end millionaire.
Lenny McGill (Troy McClure of guns) never did understand that using large breasted bimbos to shoot the machine guns in his videos was a failure. The breasts obscured the guns.
Best gun porn was the centerspread in American Handgunner. Ichiro Nagata was a master at posing them. Bob & Hefner could have taken lessons from him. You had to like Mormon girls though. It was always a 1911. Sometimes a bimboed 2011. Sometimes a black 1911. Always America's darling.
perhaps she can lay the gun
Or perhaps she is laid by the gun.
If repeatedly, then once more unto the breach would be descriptive.
ps
In that situation does 'rimless' = circumcised ??
If repeatedly, then once more unto the breach would be descriptive
The gun's breach or her breach?
The gun's breach or her breach?
Hers.
Hopefully both girl and gun practise safe gun porn, otherwise there might well be an accidental discharge and she'll end up with a round in the chamber.
As for true gun porn;
"This is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful vibrator in the world, and it could blow your head clean off. You've got to ask yourself one question, Did I load all six batteries, or only five..?"
get a sybian or Hitachi massager
You -really- think I don't own both...??
You are strange...
:)
You -really- think I don't own both...??
Ah, but do you have the 'Tim the Toolman' special build with the 10 hp motor?
Ah, but do you have the 'Tim the Toolman' special build with the 10 hp motor?
Why bother when I have you...? :)
Why bother when I have you...? :)
Okay. Time for the 20 hp diesel power driver with attached 14" dual dildos.
Okay. Time for the 20 hp diesel power driver with attached 14" dual dildos.
Someone overdose on testosterone, much..?
Look, get serious, whilst "the 'Tim the Toolman' special build with the 10 hp motor" suggested would fuck my body for hours, depending upon throttle settings and fuel capacity, Ernest Bywater can fuck with my mind for life...
So, in terms of a graduated scale of fucking, I have to choose EB every time.
Does EB stand for "extra big"?
Whilst I appreciate your earnest question, I need the real thing. No imitation EB's could get close enough for me. It just has to be the real Ernest Bywater.
As for "extra big", sorry, size DOES matter, although too big is verging on the impossible, or perhaps impossible on the virgin.
hand grenade.
Thats for rabbits of the vorpal kind.
Shotguns at very close range act like rifles, in that there is very limited spread of the shot. Not having to aim is an urban (rural?) myth.
Another is that shotguns are safer as house self defense guns as they penetrate less than rifles or pistols. Any typical apartment or house fitted with dry wall is a 'shotgun shack', a round fired in it will penetrate every interior wall in its way.
For PotomacBob's edification, a basic 410 shotgun shot shell has around 700 foot pounds of energy. a 20 gauge has around 1000 foot pounds and a 12 gauge around 1500 foot pounds. All go higher when shooting heavy loads. A .223 rifle such as the AR15 is around 1300 foot pounds, but mitigated by the energy absorbing semi auto action and straight through recoil of the design.
A .30-06 rifle, commonly used for deer hunting, runs just under 3000 foot pounds
So for a little girl a .410 is probably the practical limit. The weight of the gun and length of pull from butt to trigger then come into play, the shorter the overall length, the less weight that is hanging out in front of her. A pump or semi auto will be longer than a double due to the reciprocating action in the middle.
I just checked and Remington do make their pump in .410. I still feel that a short barreled double such as a Stoeger Uplander Youth Shotgun is more suitable.
One thing to take away from this thread is that internet gun nerdery is a powerful force. Don't get into specifics about firearms once you have the correct basics. ".410 double" would be about the most description I would give, as long as it fits the situation.
Marko Kloos, Peter Grant, Larry Correia, D. Lawdog, Tamara Keel and I think Michael Z. Williamson (could be wrong about him)are all working authors who got their start moderating gun forums and sharing their tales. Mike Kupari is another who started on the gun forums. Gun Nuts tend to read a lot and tend to be loyal to their own community, which helps new authors get a leg up. They also get rabid about errors, so its best to go with broad strokes and let them fill in the blanks from their own imaginations.
A .223 rifle such as the AR15 is around 1300 foot pounds, but mitigated by the energy absorbing semi auto action and straight through recoil of the design.
I'm perfectly happy with my 5.56 AR-15, which has the same energy but has the higher pressure.
I've gone hunting wild pigs with friends. The only time one of them even looked like it was thinking of charging at us, three of us dropped it at 50 yards. If you're actually going into woods after them, you're carrying a pistol, not a shotgun or rifle.
If you're actually going into woods after them, you're carrying a pistol, not a shotgun or rifle
Like I said upstream, I've read articles about feral hog hunters, professionals* not hobby hunters, getting in to AR-15s, but not 5.56mm NATO, .458 SOCOM, 6.5mm Grendel and .50 Beowulf for feral hog hunting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5mm_Grendel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Beowulf
*Basically pest control brought in to clear feral hogs off farm land.
For anyone writing a story and thinking about having a character use one of those .410 derringers; you need to know that the shells have three pellets of buckshot in them, when fired they are not a huge cone of total destruction to all in front of them.
those .410 derringers; you need to know that the shells have three pellets of buckshot
Actually, you can get .410 cartridges with other than buckshot loads.
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ammunition/shotgun-ammo/.410-bore/
#6 Shot
#9 Shot
Buckshot
Slugs
BB Shot
#5 Shot
#7.5 Shot
#4 Shot
#8 Shot
#8.5 Shot
#7 Shot
Yes, that's correct you can even get.410 rifled slugs.
True you can get other loads, though the buckshot is the load often recommended by the derringer makers.
All of the shot charges are very small, the slugs are lighter than .45 Long Colt bullets and no faster.
the slugs are lighter than .45 Long Colt bullets and no faster.
Well duh, it's only .41 caliber, of course it's going to be lighter than a .45.
The main reason it is lighter is because it has a hollow base, like all conventional shotgun slugs.
The main reason it is lighter is because it has a hollow base, like all conventional shotgun slugs.
Bullets (proper bullets, not round balls) for muzzle loaders are the same way. They are marginally sub bore in size, for ease of loading in the case of a muzzle loading rifle. That hollow at the back causes the round to expand slightly in diameter as it accelerates so it engages with the barrel better.
Sorry, but I rarely use shotguns for small girls, as that's not very sportsmanlike. Instead, if you kiss 'em quick, that'll generally shut 'em up for a bit, and you save a few shells for actual huntin'. 'D
There's also a 28 gauge available, mostly used for skeet shooting. My son is a gunsmith and I asked his opinion. He says there's an Italian gun maker that has a shotgun chambered in the same size as the 9mm, that uses low powered rounds with very light shot. Apparently they were designed to hunt birds and not damage them too badly. He recently purchased a single shot model in .410 gauge that folds completely in two. He shortened the barrel, shortened the stock, making sure it was still legal by a quarter of an inch, put a heavy recoil pad on it, and presented it to a friend's daughter. She was ten, fired it with no problem, and loves it. He also put rifle sights on it and bought her a .22 caliber insert so she can use it as a rifle. Now she's bugging mom top get her more inserts, in .357 and .44. She blames my son.
