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Side-stories/Interludes: when is the best time for them in the story?

ChiMi ๐Ÿšซ

Granted, you like including side-stories and Interludes.

The current Story I am reading has a massive scope and often dips into other characters and places. (currently 4 million words)

But as a reader, I am not overly happy with the timing of the Interludes. They are sometimes several chapters long, when you just want to know what happens in the mainstory next. Especially if it had a cliff-hanger or a big reveal going on.

I find myself often skipping those chapters (especially if they are not even in the neighborhood of the mainstory) and telling myself, that I will read them later.

Isn't it better to place the interludes when there is not much going on in the Main Story? What do you guys/girls think?

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

I tend to place an Interlude where there's a transition point in the main story so I can use the Interlude section to provide some off stage information and / or set up something for further along in the story. I try to space them so they do not interfere with the main story or plot development, but enhance it during suitable break points.

Replies:   ChiMi
ChiMi ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

Yup. It should add to the story or give another perspective to things that had happened in the main story.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

Why is nothing much going on in your Main Story? That seems like a problem in and of itself, rather than whether or not it's a good place for divergent substory.

Interludes? Side-stories? These should be used to elucidate or to interrogate characters and motivations. Or histories and plot devices, I suppose. The may rule is that any divergence should bolster the main story. One Piece does this very well with its insular flashbacks.

The best writing advice I've ever found: When in doubt, clip it out. - Mark Twain, paraphrased not quoted, possibly misattributed.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  ChiMi
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

When in doubt, clip it out. - Mark Twain, paraphrased not quoted, possibly misattributed.

"Try to leave out the part that readers tend to skip." is one of Elmore Leonard's "Rules".

AJ

ChiMi ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

There is much going on in the main story, but so is everywhere else. But I don't care about things that happen on another continent that will impact the story 2 or 5 million words away.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg ๐Ÿšซ

@ChiMi

There is much going on in the main story, but so is everywhere else. But I don't care about things that happen on another continent that will impact the story 2 or 5 million words away.

As others have noted, if an 'interlude' interrupts the story and takes it to somewhere else, with a completely unknown character, that's not an interlude, it's a completely different story. Maybe the author got bored and decided to try his hand at something else but wanted to keep to his regular posting schedule?

The whole purpose of such 'interludes', as others have noted, is to introduce other information into the story that will have relevance later. In other words, it's supposed to enhance the story, and help establish the main characters' character (so you'll understand their later actions).

If someone introduces an unknown character mid-story, I'd not only recommend you skip those chapters entirely, but question whether the overall story is coherent enough to continue. If the author yanks you OUT of the story, only to stove you into an unrelated story with characters with no (established) relation to the current story, he's only driving readers from his own story.

The way to do this, if it's done at all, is to immediately introduce the other characters relevance to the story, but you don't do it during a crisis point in the tale, typically you do it just after an immediate crisis has been resolved (i.e. during a slow period), to help set up the follow dilemma.

Above all, you ONLY introduce new characters in order to further build your existing characters, not to introduce someone who'll rush in at the last minute and 'save' everyone in the book's conclusion.

If I encountered such a chapter, I'd drop the author a note, informing him that, since I saw NO relevance to the extraneous character, I was skipping the following chapters. If I saw a message like that, I'd immediately start restructuring the entire story, as it's a clear red flag that he (the author) has missed the boat entirely.

That said, foreshadowing is extremely tricky, and difficult to pull off successfully. The 'mysterious character' motif is a common, but largely inefficient strategy. If readers don't have some reason for an entirely new character, they're not likely to CARE who the hell he is, meaning the author has already failed in their technique. That's why quickly establishing a connection is essential (I typically start off such episodes using a third-character, who tells/introduces the main character to the new character, so you immediately understand his relationship to the story (ex: is he suspicious, distrustful, overly protective, defensive or jealous?).

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Redsliver
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

The way to do this, if it's done at all, is to immediately introduce the other characters relevance to the story

Whoa! Introduce all the characters immediately in the beginning of the story?

In the novel I'm about to publish, I introduce a mystery character in the first chapter. The protagonist and another character in the 2nd chapter. Two more significant characters in the 3rd chapter. Another character in Chapter 4. Another in Chapter 6. Another in Chapter 8. Another in Chapter 12. Another in Ch 20. One more in Ch 21.

That doesn't include all the miscellaneous characters. If you notice, one character isn't introduced until Chapter 21 (although he is sort of mentioned earlier).

As to interludes, if I understand what that is (not back story), I often jump around. That's typical in a story written in 3rd-person limited from multiple characters' POVs. But all the stories (sub-plots) tie together.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Vincent Berg

Above all, you ONLY introduce new characters in order to further build your existing characters, not to introduce someone who'll rush in at the last minute and 'save' everyone in the book's conclusion.

Every time you introduce a new character you put an extra cost on your reader's attention. That cost needs to pay off, and the more attention you require, the more payoff you need.

In your explanation, quoted, you are talking about adding saviors to the story. Deus ex Machina. I agree, a garbage move for garbage writers. In my opinion, you don't add ways out for your heroes, you add complications. The thing I try never to do is cold introduce a character after the third chapter. (For me, after 12000 words.) Every piece of the puzzle discovered after that point needs to tie in to the current canon. That isn't to say there won't be a new face in chapter 20, just that the reader will have been expecting her.

That's characters. This thread is about divergences and explorations. If something is going on continents away and you're going to look into it, it better matter. Martin's Danaerys Targaryen and The Nightswatch are divergences from the politics and war of the Seven Kingdoms but you know they are going to come together in glorious fashion at the end of all things. Dany and Jon's chapters can feel divorced from the story but that doesn't mean they are interludes.

After reading Brandon Sanderson's final books in the Wheel of Time series, there is a scene where two of the main characters, Mat and Perrin, meet for the first time in 6 books. Mat walks into the bar, sees Perrin and says "Isn't that the joker I used to catch badgers with back home?" Sanderson used this to open up a conversation between them. If Jordan had still been alive, my brother and I agree, there would've been two pages explaining how you catch a badger.

That's a divergence. It better not be a one off. It needs to be part of your style from page one.

In conclusion, if you're going to write a 5 million word story, make sure at least 4 999 000 of those words are worth reading. You should be able ctrl+f and delete those 1000 justs, verys, and actuallys.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

If something is going on continents away and you're going to look into it, it better matter.

For me, at least in a 3rd person (limited or omni), "Meanwhile, elsewhere, here's what the main antagonist is/was/has been up to" is something that would generally matter.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@ChiMi

But as a reader, I am not overly happy with the timing of the Interludes. They are sometimes several chapters long, when you just want to know what happens in the mainstory next. Especially if it had a cliff-hanger or a big reveal going on.

According to discussions by my writers' group, George RR Martin is guilty of that too(?).

I've just read 'Origin' by Dan Brown. It's his typical chase story littered with cliff-hangers, but every time it reaches one, Brown wrecks it with:

As (insert character name) (insert synonym for 'looked') at the place/building, they recalled (insert clunky exposition or long-winded description to prove the author had been there).

It really shatters the tension and I consider it poor technique.

AJ

REP ๐Ÿšซ

@ChiMi

I don't recall ever including a chapter length interlude in one of my stories.

As an author, I am more inclined to a brief recollection or addition that is several paragraphs in length that adds to the reader's understanding of a character or the plot.

As a reader, I generally don't care for an interlude, but I do understand the author usually had a reason for including it.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@ChiMi

A little diversion:

currently 4 million words

In normal English stories, words average between 5 and 6 characters, so 4 million words be somewhere between 20,000 KB and 24,000 KB. SOL apparently has only one story in that range, weighing in at 22,040 KB.

AJ

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

SOL apparently has only one story in that range, weighing in at 22,040 KB.

Except that story is illustrated with at least one image in every chapter, so it's probably considerably smaller in word count than the raw size would indicate.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

In normal English stories, words average between 5 and 6 characters, so 4 million words be somewhere between 20,000 KB and 24,000 KB

actually, your math is a bit off. 1 KB = 1024 bytes (2^10), not 1000, so 4 million words at a 5 character average would be 19,531.2 KB

There are two non illustrated stories over 18KB.

Arlene and Jeff comes in at 18238 KB.

Deja Vu Ascendancy comes in at 18671 KB

And then Three Square Meals tips the scale at 17255 KB

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

actually, your math is a bit off.

Actually my maths is a bit non-maths :(

I was using some heuristical conversion rates - the 5-6 characters per word was an approximation from doing a reverse calculation, dividing the text size by the wordcount. As a recent thread on wordcounts and technology shows, the correspondence isn't exact.

IIRC, adults with a decent grasp of English should be closer to 5.75 than 5.5. 6 normally means impenetrable English, the sort bureaucrats and professors write when they don't want anyone to understand they're idiots. 5 is baby talk.

The 'candidate' story I found probably wasn't the one the OP was referring to because it has been concluded whereas the OP said 'currently, implying their story is still in progress.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

The 'candidate' story I found probably wasn't the one the OP was referring to because it has been concluded whereas the OP said 'currently, implying their story is still in progress.

Then in that size range, it has to be either Arlene and Jeff or Three Square Meals.

IIRC, adults with a decent grasp of English should be closer to 5.75 than 5.5. 6 normally means impenetrable English

Well, if you want to get that precise, spaces and punctuation marks have to be counted too, so for adults with a decent grasp of English, it would probably come close to 7.

Michael Loucks ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

And then Three Square Meals tips the scale at 17255 KB

My AWLL series is 47,000 KB broken into 20 books for author sanity and reader convenience. It's a single story with the same protagonist throughout the series.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

For me, at least in a 3rd person (limited or omni), "Meanwhile, elsewhere, here's what the main antagonist is/was/has been up to" is something that would generally matter.

That's good.

The other continent is also cursed.

That's bad.

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