Forum: Author Hangout

Errrmmm... Just sayin'!

Safe_Bet 🚫

I can sympathize, empathize and conceptualize why a writer would be upset over their scores. I get it. I have a story (poem actually) that has never broken 6.0 (it's been sitting at 5.95 for years LOL). I feel especially bad when people "1 bomb" a story (or 2 or 3 it so that the scores stick). That sucks and you feel bad and unappreciated.

What I DON'T sympathize with is when the writer writes a "poor me/you people suck" blog because he doesn't like his/her scores and then proceeds to cuss out his readers.

YOU, dude (and I hope he reads this because it's not aimed at 99.99% of the writers here) need to grow a pair and them tuck them into your big boy panties.

Looking at all of the rest of your story scores shows that they are pretty much in the 5.0 - 6.0 range. That kind of consistency, with tens of thousands of total downloads, tells me that the problem isn't the readers.

Might I suggest that you consider expanding your subject range, utilize an editor and/or think on improving your writing skills?

Of course, you certainly don't need to do any of those things, but, in that case, you need to stop blaming everyone else for responding appropriately (well... at least in my opinion).

Just sayin'.

Replies: robberhands

robberhands 🚫

@Safe_Bet

Authors have to endure scores they perceive as unfair or we suffer from the occasional offensive comment. Readers have now and then to endure an author's rant about those things. Of course, authors as well as readers would be better off ignoring such things but we're all just humans.

Replies: Safe_Bet

Safe_Bet 🚫
Updated:

@robberhands

Readers have now and then to endure an author's rant about those things.

Why?

Ranting/whining is both a disservice to this site because insulting the readership by calling them things like "sad little jackass" hurts the owners of this place a LOT more than it does the readership and is a disservice to every writer who has every received a low score and then actually did something about it.

I DO get the "we're all human" part, if it would have been a response to a specific low score, but when all of them are low (with tens of thousands of downloads) you are kicking the wrong party when you rant at readers.

Dinsdale 🚫

There are (sometimes marginally) justified scores and comments, there are 1-bombs. Some people seem to give out 1 scores routinely.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Dinsdale

Some people seem to give out 1 scores routinely

Guessing from my account I think SOL stores all my votes.
I just opened Oyster50's 'Lena' and went to the bottom of the last chapter. There was displayed my score from back then (end of September 2017).

So because they are stored for the user, I think Lazeez could create and run a script to find those 1-bombers.

How to deal with them is the next question.
- To warn those trolls or to close their account wouldn't do, they would only open another account.
- Simply discard their votes would work if they are not notified of this step. They would happily continue to 1-bomb stories while their score would be shown to them but no longer added to the story's score.

HM.

Replies: Ernest Bywater REP

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@helmut_meukel

So because they are stored for the user, I think Lazeez could create and run a script to find those 1-bombers.

Possible. But how does he differentiate the Haters who vote 1s on a story as against the people who feel the story is worth only a 1? There's already a process in place to counter the hateful 1 votes, so we now need to stop people acknowledging the 1 vote terrorists in their blogs, and hope the haters go away if they don't get their recognition.

REP 🚫

@helmut_meukel

How to deal with them is the next question.

You don't know why they are 1-bombing. They may feel justified in issuing a 1. Then you have the issue of how many 1's can someone issue without being punished. If someone is to be punished, what is an appropriate punishment and how will punishing someone be perceived by other readers. If the 1-bomber is vindictive enough to give you a 1, what do you think they will say in reader's comment, if turned on, about your getting them in trouble with site management.

The best way to deal with them is to just ignore them.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@REP

You don't know why they are 1-bombing. They may feel justified in issuing a 1. Then you have the issue of how many 1's can someone issue without being punished. [...] If the 1-bomber is vindictive enough to give you a 1, what do you think they will say in reader's comment, if turned on, about your getting them in trouble with site management.

I know there are causes to rate a story a 1. Those scores are not the problem. But if a "reader" comes up with more than ten or twenty votes and 90 or more percent of his/her votes are 1-bombs, then (s)he is clearly a 1-bomb-troll.

Did you really read my post or just skimmed it?
I suggested (and this is no punishment!):

- Simply discard their votes would work if they are not notified of this step. They would happily continue to 1-bomb stories while their score would be shown to them but no longer added to the story's score.

Just to add: An implementation of such a policy would work best if not made overly public, the 1-bomber wouldn't know nor the other readers and it wouldn't even necessary to inform the author. You may call this sneaky but as far as 1-bomb-trolls are concerned sneaky is the way to go!

HM.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

Did you really read my post or just skimmed it?

I suggested (and this is no punishment!):

Yes I read it and I also went back and reread it. Nowhere did I see "this is no punishment" stated or suggested.

I did see the following:

To warn those trolls or to close their account wouldn't do

Warnings come with consequences (i.e. punishments), specifically stated or implied, and closing an account is a form of punishment.

Simply discard their votes would work if they are not notified of this step.

I would also like to point out that since you made the statement, you had to have been considering forms of punishment that could be inflicted on 1-bombers. The fact that you suggested punishing them by dropping their vote, an indirect form of punishment, also supports my conclusion that you were considering punishing them.

From a practical point of view, your suggestion dropping their vote from the calculation would be difficult to implement in that Lazeez would have to maintain a database of 1-bombers which would have to be constantly updated to be useful. Without the database, every vote on every story would have to be researched to determine if the voter was a habitual 1-bomber before a rating could be calculated.

Being 1-bombed is not enjoyable, but it is also not a life threatening situation. So "ignoring it and moving on" is a better solution.

Minor edits

Michael Loucks 🚫

I firmly believe that the '1-bombers' LIVE for blog posts like the one being discussed. It affirms them and tells them they are able to control the author's mental state. It encourages them to keep it it.

I liken it to when my kids were younger. I kept telling my daughter to stop reacting when she was teased by her brother and he'd stop. It took ten years, but she FINALLY put the advice into action. He stopped teasing almost immediately because he no longer achieved his goal of upsetting her.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I liken it to when my kids were younger. I kept telling my daughter to stop reacting when she was teased by her brother and he'd stop. It took ten years, but she FINALLY put the advice into action. He stopped teasing almost immediately because he no longer achieved his goal of upsetting her.

Asa you are likening it to '1-bombers', in the ten years that you knew your son was repeatedly teasing your daughter, what if any action did you take against him?

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫

@joyR

Asa you are likening it to '1-bombers', in the ten years that you knew your son was repeatedly teasing your daughter, what if any action did you take against him?

I didn't suggest taking ANY action against 1-bombers. I suggested that complaining about them in a blog post encouraged them. In other words, I was suggesting authors simply ignore them and get on with our otherwise too-short lives. Nothing will stop the 1-bombers if they get gratification any more than I could prevent my son from teasing my daughter (he had it so perfected that just walking into the room and looking at her the wrong way would cause her to lose her mind).

red61544 🚫

The real question is "what do we want SOL to be?" Do we want it to be a story site where anybody can post any shit they want or do we want it to be a few steps above other story sites on the net? I enjoy reading a lot of stories on SOL because they are a step above the normal crap you find on other sites. Scoring helps to keep the site a few steps above. If poor writers who don't bother with editing or spell-checking find their scores discouraging, good. Improve or move!
Over the years, I've forced myself to read several low-rated stories just to see if I would rate them as low as others have. I have yet to find a story in the 5's or low 6's that I'd consider worth reading. Crap by any other name would smell as vile!
Scores work: they separate the crap from the gems. Even though you might think that you've written a gem, the odor of the scores tells the true tale.

awnlee jawking 🚫

I don't like 1-bombers but also I don't like the idea of specifically targeting them. They help to offset the voters who rate every story they read as a 10 as a 'thank you' to the author.

As the scientific experiment involving many people estimating the number of objects in a jar showed, the incomprehensible outliers contribute to a more accurate estimate of the actual number when everyone's numbers are averaged.

AJ

Jason Samson 🚫

The way to tackle 1-bombers is something called collaborative filtering.

It's how shopping sites say "people who brought this also brought..."

It's like the "similarly tagged stories" section at the bottom of stories, except much better. People would quickly get used to finding new (to them, old to the site) stories.

People would then find stories that others who scored some stories similarly also liked.

The author then doesn't get fixated on a score, but instead sees the stories that the readers think are peers.

And 1-bombers would end up getting recommended stories that other 1-bombers also 1-bombed...

Safe_Bet 🚫

I'm now curious how many writers here do not think that there are any stories on this site that legitimately deserve "1"s? (I know that I have read dozens.)

My next question would be do they think readers should be forced to vote?

I ask that because the writers, like the one that immediately pops to mind who has tens of thousands of down loads and only 400 some odd votes, are not being "scored" accurately at all. In his case there were tens of thousands of readers who didn't like the story and either stopped reading or decided it was so bad that it didn't even deserve a reader rating. I'd bet that if readers were required to score a story you'd see a LOT of stories on this site get drastically lower scores.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Safe_Bet

I'm now curious how many writers here do not think that there are any stories on this site that legitimately deserve "1"s?

People have posted (as stories) political and/or religious/anti-religious rants without even the pretense of a story.

If it's clearly not even a badly done attempt at a story, then and only then would it truly deserve a 1 in my opinion.

My next question would be do they think readers should be forced to vote?

Absolutely not.

In his case there were tens of thousands of readers who didn't like the story and either stopped reading or decided it was so bad that it didn't even deserve a reader rating.

You don't actually have any evidence to support that conclusion.

It's just as likely that there were thousands of readers who finished and liked the story and didn't bother to vote. And for those who stopped reading and didn't vote it's likely that many stopped because the story content wasn't to their taste rather than because they thought the story was badly written.

It should be noted that those who stop reading in the middle of the story don't get the opportunity to vote, because you can only vote from the last posted chapter.

To have any idea how many readers actually stopped reading in the middle, you would have to compare the total downloads to the chapter level downloads figure for the final chapter. And that information is only available to the SOL webmaster and the author.

I'd bet that if readers were required to score a story you'd see a LOT of stories on this site get drastically lower scores.

I'd bet that EVERY story on this site would get drastically lower scores, just because many readers would be miffed at being forced to vote.

shaddoth1 🚫

This is their site too. Not just the authors' site. They have the right to vote or not, whatever they choose.

Even if it is to smack an author for past stories.

While we all want more votes, this is A SEX site. Not everyone feels comfie leaving trails behind them on sites dedicated to sex.

Think of the 1-bombers as papparzi.

And yes, some stories on this site do deserve 1s; Blatant miscoding is amoung the worst offense, so too is just plain terrible writing with no proofreading or editing.

Shad

joyR 🚫
Updated:

If people are truly upset at the perceived unfairness of a 1-bomb and wish Lazeez take some kind of action because it is so unfair, why are those same people not crying out for similar actions against 10-bombers?

Surely if it is in fact unfair for a reader to consistently apply a score of 1 it is equally unfair to consistently apply a 10 score as well? Yet it is extremely rare to see anyone here protesting against stories receiving a 10, let alone suggest that Lazeez take action against them.

So, in the interests of saving further endless threads about scoring, how about a filter to exclude any post here that mentions scoring?

Replies: robberhands Michael Loucks helmut_meukel awnlee jawking REP

robberhands 🚫

@joyR

No more threads about scoring, politics, or religion. No more complaints about too much sex in stories, or about bad grammar, and for heaven's sake no more stupid puns. May this forum rest in peace under an umbrella of automated censorship.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@robberhands

No more threads about scoring, politics, or religion.

For good or ill, the scoring system is unlikely to ever change, so bitching about it is not just pointless but repetitively boring.

The three things almost guaranteed to provoke someone is to question their family, politics or religion. Hardly surprising that Lazeez banned politics, is it?

It could be described as censorship, it could also be described as curbing the excesses of children who have not yet learned to behave.

Replies: robberhands

robberhands 🚫

@joyR

And as one of the few adults in this forum, you suggest big daddy should limit the themes the unruly children will be allowed to discuss?

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@robberhands

And as one of the few adults in this forum, you suggest big daddy should limit the themes the unruly children will be allowed to discuss?

Actually, I dislike censorship, but if it is to be avoided, those who are free of it should act with a little common sense and decorum, should they not?

Replies: robberhands

robberhands 🚫

@joyR

I don't read threads which bore me and don't participate in discussions which annoy me. That's the magnitude of common sense and decorum I apply to forum discussions.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@robberhands

I don't read threads which bore me and don't participate in discussions which annoy me. That's the magnitude of common sense and decorum I apply to forum discussions.

Any chance you could infect a few other contributors with that attitude? Please.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@joyR

Surely if it is in fact unfair for a reader to consistently apply a score of 1 it is equally unfair to consistently apply a 10 score as well? Yet it is extremely rare to see anyone here protesting against stories receiving a 10, let alone suggest that Lazeez take action against them.

The 'score leveling' which is being performed to prevent 'score creep', uses an algorithm to trend scores towards the middle. It's easy enough for authors to see this by looking at the provided score bars and doing a bit of estimation (and Lazeez rightly discloses that he does this).

This, combined with lopping off votes from the high and low end helps mitigate the problem. Personally, I'd simply prefer a thumbs-up/thumbs-down scoring system with the raw results presented, as well as percentages of thumbs-up per voter and per reader (e.g. 80% thumbs up from voters; 22% of readers voted thumbs up).

But, given Lazeez has said he's not changing the scoring system, all we're doing is what a good friend of mine would call 'mental masturbation'. And, as I said, complaining publicly about '1 bombs' gives them the feedback AND the power. In the immortal words of Nancy Reagan: "Just say 'no'!"

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Michael Loucks

all we're doing is what a good friend of mine would call 'mental masturbation'.

Masturbation works perfectly alone and without an audience.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@joyR

Surely if it is in fact unfair for a reader to consistently apply a score of 1 it is equally unfair to consistently apply a 10 score as well?

Ahh, NO.
There is a difference.
If a reader consistently applies a score of 1, then this is done to punish the author for something the reader had already known before downloading the story.
Even if he randomly selected the story he can't get always stories deserving the 1. So he deliberately select stories with codes he despises (scat, anal, watersports, m/m, what ever) or from authors he hates just to 1-bomb these stories.

If however a reader carefully selects only stories from authors he likes and actually reads the description and the codes and selects only those he likes, then the probability is high he will read only stories which warrants – for him – scores of 8, 9 or 10.
E.g. I rated all of Oyster50 SmartGirls stories a 10, some of his other stories got 'only' 8 or 9.

HM.
HM.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@helmut_meukel

There is a difference.

Apparently the difference is that in your opinion, a 1-bomb is a punishment or random act of evilness, whereas a 10-bomb is "carefully selected".

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@joyR

whereas a 10-bomb is "carefully selected".

I didn't say this.
Let me try again. Maybe I wasn't able to express what I meant – I'm no native English speaker – but maybe you deliberately misunderstood.
I wrote:

If however a reader carefully selects only stories from authors he likes and actually reads the description and the codes and selects only those he likes, then the probability is high he will read only stories which warrants – for him – scores of 8, 9 or 10.

The "carefully select" is about the stories a reader downloads to read. With more than 40,000 stories here on SOL to choose from, the reader can choose stories within his comfort zone and will very seldom have to give low scores.

But from the discussion here I conclude, you and some other authors expect 'the reader' to select, download and read stories with elements he doesn't like just because he would miss an otherwise "great" story.
I read stories I like, I've never read some of the most famous books ever written. I've tried some and ceased reading after a few chapters.

HM.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

Let me try again. Maybe I wasn't able to express what I meant – I'm no native English speaker – but maybe you deliberately misunderstood.

No, I understood you, however, whilst my comment that you quoted related to both 1 and 10 bombers, you stated there was a difference, but then went on to 'cherry pick' 10 scores awarded under specific circumstances.

But from the discussion here I conclude, you and some other authors expect 'the reader' to select, download and read stories with elements he doesn't like just because he would miss an otherwise "great" story.

I don't expect readers to do anything other than what they wish. It is true that if one selects stories to read based only on the codes and descriptions, you will miss some great stories. But that does not mean I expect anyone to read a story they dislike.

ETA

It is a little like panning for gold. If you dislike finding a lot of worthless sand, silt etc in your pan, you probably won't continue, thus you miss out on finding the golden nuggets. Nobody is forcing you to pan for gold, you could just go buy it instead, but then you pay retail, rather than getting the gold for free.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@joyR

whilst my comment that you quoted related to both 1 and 10 bombers, you stated there was a difference, but then went on to 'cherry pick' 10 scores awarded under specific circumstances

No one knows why some users – I wont call them readers – of this site award consistently ones or tens.
But do you really believe the 1-bombers actually read these stories? A few, maybe.
OTOH, do you believe most of the 10-bombers hav'n't read the downloaded stories?
I strongly suspect there is a difference in the percentage of 1-bombed and 10-bombed stories actually read by the bombers. I admit this is just a gut feeling. Nobody asked all those bombers so we have no data. (Even if asked, would they answer truthfully?)

HM.

Replies: seanski1969

seanski1969 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I admit this is just a gut feeling. Nobody asked all those bombers so we have no data. (Even if asked, would they answer truthfully?)

Well as an unabashed "10 Bomber" I have read every story I have voted on.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

Yet it is extremely rare to see anyone here protesting against stories receiving a 10

I like being called 'extremely rare' :)

But the truth is there's no way to protect the scoring system from readers abusing its purpose. But I think its fair to point out the obvious biases eg against new authors.

AJ

Replies: John Demille

John Demille 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But I think its fair to point out the obvious biases eg against new authors.

I would phrase this as 'bias for established authors'.

New authors are judged more fairly as they don't have any fans nor enemies yet. Established authors get high votes from their fans because they're their fans.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@John Demille

New authors are judged more fairly as they don't have any fans nor enemies yet.

Well said. I award your post a virtual thumbs up.

AJ

REP 🚫

@joyR

it is equally unfair to consistently apply a 10 score as well?

I agree. One poster said something to the effect of: I always give every story I read a 10 because the author put in the time and effort to write the story.

The only thing that should be taken into consideration is the rater's opinion of the story in terms of its quality and personal appeal. Handing out a 10 because you like the author or appreciate their effort is inappropriate. Scoring a story in a it's a 1-or-10 fashion is also inappropriate.

The appropriate rating for most stories falls somewhere between the two extremes.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@REP

The only thing that should be taken into consideration is the rater's opinion of the story in terms of its quality and personal appeal. Handing out a 10 because you like the author or appreciate their effort is inappropriate. Scoring a story in a it's a 1-or-10 fashion is also inappropriate.

What anyone considers to be the right or wrong way to vote ends at their own keyboard. Readers will vote how they choose, for whatever reasons they have.

Judging from comments from readers there are those who choose to vote either a 1 or a 10, some because they'd prefer a simple thumbs up/down system, others because they are aware of the algorithm and use the 1 and 10 options to subvert it.

Not so long ago there was a discussion about reviewers and how they scored, that proved to confirm that there is no consistency, each reviewer scores according to their own opinion. Why should anyone expect readers to be 'better' at scoring?

It is subjective, people will vote based on criteria that would drive others screaming naked to the nearest distillery, or reaching for a shotgun. The fact is that people will continue to vote as they choose, regardless of what others think is the right way.

So what is 'appropriate' to you is just your opinion. And just as valid as everyone else's.

Darian Wolfe 🚫

I don't think we need to spend a lot of time protecting either the Author's or the Reader's feelings. We're supposed to be big boys and girls. If I want to be in a PC environment I'll go to Vogue's website or Facebook.

As an Author has a score ever torqued my jaw? Damn straight. Have I ever vented on the forum about it? Once I believe. I had a new insult I had been saving up for a special occasion and wanted to use it.

I know my craft well enough to know that I'm a good solid writer. I'm not great, but not a schmuck either. So fuck them. I'm here FOR the freedom of having almost no limits placed on my art. This creeping PC shit makes me nervous.

If you're not man or woman enough to take the occasional hit. You might be on the wrong site. The scoring system is a little weird but there is no way to have a voting system that someone won't find a way to manipulate. I can live with it. well, that's my quarter.

Replies: Keet Darian Wolfe

Keet 🚫

@Darian Wolfe

If I want to be in a PC environment I'll go to Vogue's website or Facebook.

Ummm, Facebook, the toilet of the internet, a PC environment?

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Keet

Ummm, Facebook, the toilet of the internet, a PC environment?

ayep, anything you say there that disagrees with the political doctrine of the Facebook owner or staff is cleaned out, and so is your account.

Darian Wolfe 🚫

@Darian Wolfe

Lol, Well if I didn't bite myself in the ass. In the story I just posted I went a lot deeper, darker, and intense than I did in part 1. I apparently caught some folks with their guard down due to the switch. So I added some codes.

While I don't believe in being overprotective I did set an expectation with part 1. I then came out from the left field so I should have put in the codes on part two.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Errrmmm... Just sayin'!

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