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High Fantasy?

helmut_meukel 🚫

What is the difference between Fantasy and High Fantasy?

If it's about wizards, elves, wereanimals, gods, devils or demons, where do you draw the line between Fantasy and High Fantasy?
Is it the location? Near real world vs. pure fantasy world?

Some examples:
John Ringo's Princess of Wands
P. G. Allison's Missy the Werecat novels
Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories
Wen Spencer's Elfhome novels
L. Sprague de Camp's The Compleat Enchanter (Harold Shea stories)
Mercedes Lackey's The SERRAted Edge novels
Wen Spencer's Eight Million Gods
Wen Spencer's The Black Wolves of Boston
John Lambshead's Wolf in Shadow
High Fantasy or just plain Fantasy?

HM.

Replies:   samuelmichaels  StarFleet Carl  REP  Remus2
      
samuelmichaels 🚫
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

I've read a definition that High Fantasy includes god(s) as significant elements of the story.

By that definition, Missy would not be HF, but Elfhome is probably HF (it features race-creation characters, who would be analogous to gods in many myths).

      
StarFleet Carl 🚫

@helmut_meukel

What is the difference between Fantasy and High Fantasy?

Because of the term High Fantasy, what you're calling plain Fantasy is now called Low Fantasy by some as a way of distinguishing the two.

High Fantasy is NOT set on Earth, even an alternate Earth. Typically you have a hero or quest involved. Lord of the Rings, or the Riftworld Series, are good examples of this.

Low, or plain, Fantasy may be 'epic', but it's primarily set on Earth or a recognizable, real world simulacrum of the real world. Harry Potter or Princess of Wands is in this category.

Replies:   Dominions Son
     
Dominions Son 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

In terms of Dead Tree publisher genre listings, there is also Paranormal. Paranormal covers ghosts, psychic power, magic and any other Low/High Fantasy elements such as Elves, wereanimals, and vampires, generally set in the here and now or near future on Earth. Add romance/erotica elements and you get Paranormal Romance, something that has become a significant category in the Dead Tree world.

      
REP 🚫

@helmut_meukel

What is the difference between Fantasy and High Fantasy?

I don't know. When I read the definitions of the two terms, the definitions overlap, contradict, and are too restrictive or too open. However, high fantasy seems to be a subset of fantasy.

The best definition I found, in my opinion, is fantasy stories include elements that are not real, improbable, or impossible. The definitions of high fantasy are even worse in that some definitions state certain magical element must be present while other definitions indicate the elements can be present, but aren't a requirement. One definition indicated the best measure of determining the difference is, 'I know it when I see it.'

My conclusion is the definitions of the two terms are evolving, so almost any definition will be accepted by some people and rejected by others. :(

      
Ernest Bywater 🚫

For it to be real high fantasy it should include powerful people who care for the general population, or have honest politicians.

     
Remus2 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I don't believe there is a firm definition for either term. From my perspective, what people define them as is subjective at best.

Thanks for that list btw. It contains some works I hadn't seen before and will be acquiring.

      
anim8ed 🚫
Updated:

Were-critters and vampires; are they para-normal or fantasy? I have seen them listed both ways.

Replies:   Dominions Son
      
Dominions Son 🚫

@anim8ed

Were-critters and vampires; are they para-normal or fantasy?

From what I've seen in dead tree publishing, if it's in a medieval style low tech setting it will be classed fantasy. In a modern setting it's classed as paranormal.

Replies:   anim8ed
      
anim8ed 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

You would think that would be the case though I have seen a couple sites list modern vampires as fantasy. ETA but then again I have seen modern erotica listed as fantasy. (wrong type of fantasy people)

Replies:   Dominions Son
      
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@anim8ed

I have seen a couple sites list modern vampires as fantasy.

Perhaps, but I was talking about how the actual publishers classify them.

      
Banadin 🚫

I am from the government and I am here to help you. Supports Ernest's thought.

      
richardshagrin 🚫

High Fantasy is fantasy you read while under the influence of drugs. Or possibly one or more of the characters is. That you will make a lot of money selling marijuana is also a high fantasy. At last highly fantastic.

Replies:   helmut_meukel  samuelmichaels  joyR
      
helmut_meukel 🚫

@richardshagrin

High Fantasy is fantasy you read while under the influence of drugs.

You got it wrong. High Fantasy is fantasy you write while under the influence of drugs.

HM.

      
samuelmichaels 🚫

@richardshagrin

High Fantasy is fantasy you read while under the influence of drugs

I just knew you would go there ...

Replies:   Dominions Son
      
Dominions Son 🚫

@samuelmichaels

I just knew you would go there ...

He's gone there every time this topic has come up. It was barely amusing the first time, and it hasn't aged well.

Replies:   Wheezer
      
Wheezer 🚫

@Dominions Son

He's gone there every time this topic has come up. It was barely amusing the first time, and it hasn't aged well.

The Grinning Dick thinks himself amusing and we have never been able to disabuse him of the notion. There have been others attempt to usurp his position as SOL court jester, but they are only playing the part of the Fool. Richard isn't playing...

Replies:   richardshagrin
      
richardshagrin 🚫

@Wheezer

Quoting from your 8-27-2016 Blog:

"Oh well, it is sometimes said that humor which doesn't offend someone isn't all that funny."

Replies:   Wheezer  Dominions Son
      
Wheezer 🚫

@richardshagrin

humor which doesn't offend someone

You are confusing the meaning of offensive & annoying. Several great professional comics have made being offensive a high art form. Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor and others. I can't think of any who made a career of being annoying - except maybe Jerry Lewis.

Replies:   BalRog
      
BalRog 🚫

@Wheezer

I can't think of any who made a career of being annoying - except maybe Jerry Lewis.

Gilda Radner? Martin Short? Rowan Atkinson? Stan Laurel? It seems like a pretty common comedic formula to me!

Replies:   Wheezer
      
Wheezer 🚫

@BalRog

Gilda Radner? Martin Short? Rowan Atkinson? Stan Laurel? It seems like a pretty common comedic formula to me!

I'll concede you Short is annoying. At least Radner & Atkinson & Laurel all had the good graces to be funny. In Stan's case, hysterically so.

      
Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

The "joke" in question isn't the least bit offensive. It just wasn't that funny the first time you used it and it gets less funny with every repetition.

      
joyR 🚫

@richardshagrin

High Fantasy is fantasy you read while under the influence of drugs.

Best avoid mainstream fantasy as well, it seems you've hit a vein...

Replies:   samuelmichaels
      
samuelmichaels 🚫

@joyR

Best avoid mainstream fantasy as well, it seems you've hit a vein...

Some of the models on the covers are smoking hot, though...

Replies:   Wheezer  StarFleet Carl
      
Wheezer 🚫

@samuelmichaels

Some of the models on the covers are smoking hot, though...

I think some of the 'artists' for these books have never been around real women much. This one looks like her breast is located in her armpit!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fW2xyIhML.jpg

Replies:   BlacKnight  helmut_meukel
      
BlacKnight 🚫

@Wheezer

That's nowhere near as bad as some I've seen. My "favorite" was the cover of a fantasy RPG supplement where not only had the artist obviously paid far more attention to rendering the woman on the cover's unnaturally-shaped tits and the cameltoe she was thrusting at the viewer than any other part of the picture, including things like her arms and face, it had multiple serious anatomical fails. The most egregious was that, due to her mincing posture, one of her legs crossed behind the other... and didn't emerge from the other side. It just vanished about mid-shin.

      
helmut_meukel 🚫

@Wheezer

I've seen once one alike but with three tits. I think the artist had that one in mind, but removed the middle tit to have space enough for this blue strip of cloth embroidered with the golden cross.

I remember a picture of a beautiful woman with three pairs of medium sized tits, starting at the collarbone down to just above the navel.

HM.

Replies:   Wheezer
      
Wheezer 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I remember a picture of a beautiful woman with three pairs of medium sized tits, starting at the collarbone down to just above the navel.

Getting ready to have a litter? ;)

      
StarFleet Carl 🚫

@samuelmichaels

Some of the models on the covers are smoking hot, though...

It was great when Boris Vallejo did the covers, definitely!

     
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