Forum: Author Hangout

this is on the to-do list

Do you have any liability for images/fonts authors use that are copyrighted and the author does not have permission to use?

Do you have any liability for images/fonts authors use that are copyrighted and the author does not have permission to use?

Switch,

I suspect that's covered by the posting rules where they say:

You are the creator/co-creator of the work or you have explicit written permission from its author to post the work online. OR Submission is in the public domain (copyright has expired - which you may be asked to prove.)

That should cover all items an author posts.

On a personal level I make sure everything I create in the way of stories and artwork are lawful for me to post, thus the artwork is either mine, or public domain, or I have approval from the copyright holder, or covered by Creative Commons Attribution copyright. I encourage all others to do the same.

Are we saying that changes if the story is in a certain font..??

Fonts used on the cover. Lazeez controls the story fonts.

Are we saying that changes if the cover text is in a certain font..??

Yes. Some Font developers copyright their fonts. If you use their Font on your cover without their permission, you are violating their copyright.

If you have purchased a copyright font you have the right to use that font in a publication while not passing the font for others to use.

Depends on the terms. I assume it's the same as it is with images. Some say you can use it for personal use only. Others for commercial. For commercial, some limit the number of novels it's on.

Can you point me to a license that does require different payment if the font is to be used in the creation of a book cover

When I found a font I wanted I would click on the licensing agreement. Some were free. Some had restrictions. Unfortunately I can't find any of those fonts. However, I found these articles when googling "fonts for book covers."

This is from an article at: https://publishdrive.com/book-cover-font-guide/#1

make sure your font is free to use, or pay for the one you really need. You definitely wouldn't want somebody to just use your book however they like – neither want typographers. So make sure you read the small print and check if the font is free to use for commercial purposes.

I deal mostly with commercially licensed font

That's all I meant. I originally asked if you were liable for copyrighted images and fonts where the SOL author didn't pay for the license when one was required. Not all fonts out there are free. But you know that.

I also remember reading licenses where they limited the number of books sold (say up to 100,000). But that must have been for the image, not the font. I don't remember. I don't bother with those.

ebooks (EPUB) font use in the text is totally different from the font used in the cover image.

I was talking about the font on the cover image. But the licenses I remember limiting the quantity must have been for the copyrighted image not the font.

The paragraph concerning ePub's etc indicates the fee covering only one title and the licence linked states you must state the maximum number of copies when obtaining the licence.

I deal with these issues all the time. I've published 15 different books, most with specific font, graphic licenses for images/fonts which match and extend the story. You're thinking of an embedded font license. But for ebooks, the only usage covered, it's really useless since you cannot ADD ebook fonts, you can only replace the already limited ebook font sets, meaning you'll likely screw up other fonts as well.

I've studied these extensively, and even tried to implement them, and it's a non-starter the entire process. Just rely on the generic 'display' license, as the extended license is virtually impossible to implement, anyway.

As long as you're licensed to use the digital file, the end product specifically isn't important.

That's true. Years ago I had to buy a licensed copy of Palatino Linotype for my own use on a Linux system and was told by the licensing people I could put it on any system I was personally using and also use it to create books for and other documents for personal or commercial purposes and sales. I wasn't allowed to sell or give the font file to anyone else.

Edit to add: That was so long ago you couldn't get a free Palatino type of font for Linux.

So I never heard that you need specific licensing to a font beyond the license for the computer or user.

While I'm not sure how much of this is relevant it's worth noting the information on these wiki pages - the bold is added by me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_fonts_for_the_Web

Core fonts for the Web was a project started by Microsoft in 1996 to create a standard pack of fonts for the Internet. It included the proprietary fonts Andalé Mono, Arial, Arial Black, Comic Sans MS, Courier New, Georgia, Impact, Times New Roman, Trebuchet MS, Verdana and Webdings, all of them in TrueType font format packaged in executable files (".exe") for Microsoft Windows and in BinHexed Stuff-It archives (".sit.hqx") for Macintosh. These packages were published as freeware under a proprietary license imposing some restrictions on distribution.

In July 2007, Apple announced that it had renewed its licensing agreement with Microsoft for the use of the latest versions of Microsoft Windows core fonts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatino

Linotype licensed Palatino to Adobe and Apple who incorporated it into the PostScript digital printing technology as a standard font.

These are just two of the situations where I know the fonts are proprietary and need to be licensed for use. I also know Crumbly had a big issue with getting licenses for some of the fonts he wanted to use.

These are just two of the situations where I know the fonts are proprietary and need to be licensed for use. I also know Crumbly had a big issue with getting licenses for some of the fonts he wanted to use.

For the most part, I know what's required going in. but ... there are also fonts posted to ALL the font sharing sites, for which there is no known author, or the author is unreachable. Those cases are frustrating, but in those cases, the assumption is that, since no one complains about the widespread distribution, and there is no one to contact, it 'acceptable practice' to use it as long as you put a disclaimer in, specifying that you've searched for the designer, and request they contact you directly. That demonstrates a 'concerted attempt' to contact the designer.

I ran into this was font released by a now-defunct game designer. For such a public source, you'd think the designer would be known, or that the gaming company would have kept records, but alas, neither is the case.

However, that was the ONE case I couldn't resolve.

As for private propriatory fonts, I regularly visit dafont and several other font sites (font designers often cross-post to multiple sites), checking out the latest designs. It's often easier finding particular fonts from freelance designers than wasting time checking out big-name design studios (who often change hundreds for 30 or 40 fonts, when all you need is ONE).

I frequently use cover/title fonts which match the feel of the book (like cowboy fonts for westerns, gun (shot up) fonts for mysteries or sci-fi fonts for sci-fi stories). By giving readers a way of visualizing the story, it helps immerse them. Plus, boring fonts without any real soul are worse than not even including the title on the cover (in my honest opinion, after having done that for quite a while).

But, in the end, using fancy fonts for books is a personal pleasure, as it WON'T add a single sale or increase downloads or increase scores. But as I typically change more for my books ($4.99 - $5.99) than most independent authors do ($.99 to $2.99), I feel the extra effort makes the extra cost worth it.

Use the font for chapter titles and include the ttf (or whatever) font file in a zip or epub. You are breaking copyright by passing on the copyrighted font file(s).

I frequently use a variety of unique fonts, and there are separate font licenses for that 'embedded font licenses'. Unfortunately, they're much more expensive, and are typically on a per-book basis (ie a separate license for Amazon, Sw, Lulu, etc,). In most cases, the chapter title is handled exactly as the cover fonts are, using the generic 'display' license and included as graphic images (just ensure you include 'alt=' instructors, otherwise the book is utterly worthless for sight-impaired readers).

If anyone needs to know the lowdown on font or image licensing issues, contact me privately and I'll help you out.

Same applies to pictures. If copyright is sufficient to stop its use without permission, then that should apply to the story as well. Shouldn't it?

Points to keep in mind:

1. Some fonts are copyrighted and require purchasing or approval, some don't.

2. Images have their own copyright.

3. The cover art is a different copyright to the story.

4. The stories displayed on SoL are done in a font Lazeez has a legal right to use.

5. The author who uploads an image has a legal responsibility to ensure all aspects of the image are legal to use, and that includes any font used on the image.

However, if an author uploads and image that isn't legal to use Lazeez need only to not include it with the story to stay legal. This is because the law sees each as a separate item.

Except for the fonts used in images.

See the other points I made, especially point 2 and point 3.

I believe stories posted to SOL by someone other than the author must either be with the author's permission or copyright must have expired.

AJ

The ASSM/TR attribution of Milady and the Dragon, dated 2001, is to Alexis Siefert, who has a presence here on SOL but hasn't submitted anything recently. It's also present in a collection of Clitorides-winning stories on the same site.

Oldies here may have more details about the author (wasn't she nicknamed Eskimo Boy by cmsix?) but IIRC her writing was terminated by ill-health or worse :(

AJ

There are a number of stories on SoL that are not posted by the author, they often state that and acknowledge the author by name, though not the site they stole it from.

I seem to recall that a couple of months ago, someone did that very thing using his penname. If I recall, he cleaned up the grammar and he gave credit to the original author. Lazeez pulled the story as soon as he was notified and had a chance to confirm the facts.

I am quite certain that Lazeez would like to know about the stories you reference.

Such a strict interpretation would require all true fan fiction to be removed.

SOL's liberal interpretation of copyright law is based on the commonly accepted fan-fiction exception (i.e. few authors object, since it sells more of the original). As long as he doesn't extend that to other copyright works, it's considered safe (i.e. If the author objects, he'll file a complaint).

When recently discussing copyright and stories posted by persons other than the author, it was made clear that it is acceptable on SoL

Are we saying that changes if the story is in a certain font..?? Really?

Nope. SOL uses it's own fonts (ie. it ignores anything you specify), but the general rule (for ebooks, at least, since they involve complicated distribution licenses, is to purchase a simple 'display' font license, and then publish using an image, rather than including the actual fonts. Even if the author's font license is questioned, SOL is in the clear since it's not using the fonts directly.

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, font copyright is taken seriously. More so than the story being posted by someone other than its author. I say this based on the fact you addressed the font issue, not the plagiarism.

It gets tricky, since there is no legal copyright exceptions, but with fan fiction, since so few copyright holders ever object, most simply look the other way. But despite big names like MS, Adobe and others charging hundreds for fonts, few font designers earn much of anything. The best source of information on font licensing is fontspring, though I can't provide a link. They detail the different licenses, explain the legalese, and also detail the options for each of their fonts (and insist that everyone abide by their 'no-surprises' licensing. (But, for choosing uncommon fonts, dafont is the easiest to manage, offering many free fonts too.)

But the fonts are a different story, they mostly come from large companies tied to the publishing industry. Companies that employ small armies of lawyers to protect their IP.

Not really. This was true at one time, back when big-name corporate sponsors called all the shots, but those sources stopped producing contents several decades ago. If you've ever held a MS Word/Office license, then you have access to most of the 'big name' fonts you'll ever need (the $1,000+ ones). But for most publishing concerns, the vast majority of new font designers are dirt cheap. I always stick with the free to $50 variety, but even many of the 32-font collections can be purchased for a couple-hundred or cheaper.

As for joyR's concern about font designer's getting more copyright respect than authors, that's clearly not true. With few large-scale design houses (at least providing fonts), few can afford to file lawsuits.

But these cases fall into a legal gray zone, where the author either granted previous legal waivers to freely distribute their works, or sites they did post to retain the authority to promote their work, until the authors (often deceased) take it away. Thus many legitimate sites (and I'm not counting Amazon in this category, since they don't monitor who owns which rights to the works they 'publish'), have adopted the 'authors, if there are any retaining their rights, will let us know if we can't use their works.

Most sites that allow users to post their own copyrightable material have terms of service that include a grant to the site of a perpetual (non-expiring) non-exclusive license to distribute anything that any user posts to the site (frequently explicitly allowing distribution through other sites under the same ownership).

That only occurs at scam sites and those associated with Amazon who initiated that wording. Even then, due to that wording it is NOT a grey area in the copyright laws, it's the copyright holder being stupid enough to give up a large portion of their rights in regards to the work.

Nope, that setup actually originated with photo sharing sites that were not scams and some of which are older than Amazon.

I've not looked into the photo sharing sites all that much, but the ones I did look into were:

(a) scam sites where they charged you a small fee or subscription to use the images, many of which were either public domain or copyright by people not involved with the site; or

(b) owned or affiliated with Amazon and had the same scam type rules; or

(c) true sharing sites with conditions of service and rules like here at SoL where you did not give up your rights in the manner described above.

And if anyone understands that

Ye Worlde Literature e-Bookshoppe is not yet a reality. So we can download the 'professional' quality eBooks now. Although, I would question the quality of the product a few authors would produce for sale. There are a few professional authors (i.e. authors who have sold their stories) that currently produce a grammatically poor product. I won't read their stories for free, so I certainly wouldn't pay to download their 'professional' quality stories from Ye Worlde Literature e-Bookshoppe. From a marketing point of view, Lazeez will need to address that issue.

When Ye Worlde Literature e-Bookshoppe does become a reality, if I were Lazeez, I would prevent the download of the eBooks that are being sold in the store from being downloaded for free as ePubs.