Forum: Author Hangout

anyone else has the same understanding that you do

I've done a get deal of reading on the Internet about POVs during the past couple of years. What I've found basically agrees with Switch's description.

The main problem with that type of "research" is most of the articles are essentially blogs or someone trying to sell you something like a subscription to their newsletter. I found that bloggers have different opinions, and they present their opinions as facts.

As Switch said, there are 3 basic POVs, and excluding Second, there are many variations. Is each variation a separate POV? It would seem so, since we talk about third Limited and third Omni as if they are different POVs.

I found that bloggers have different opinions, and they present their opinions as facts

Hmmmm! Don't let the authors on this forum know about that. They may want to try it.

Don't worry, the most opinionated of use have all decried the abuses of bloggers for years! 'D Blogs are where authors who can't sell books go to die, as they spend ALL their time blogging about writing, so they have NO time to actually write fiction anymore.

Do you have any references

When I submitted my first novel to a traditional publisher, it was rejected with the feedback of "show don't tell and don't head-hop." Back then, I had no idea what those terms meant so I began my research. What I described was gathered from years of studying the craft of writing fiction so I don't have any specific reference to give you.

I find POV the most difficult aspect of writing fiction. So I spent a great deal of time trying to understand it. I've read countless articles and David Morrell's book on writing fiction (he's the author who created Rambo. I highly recommend his book. I found it in the public library in the 800s). I'm sure he covered POV but I can't be sure.

Because I don't like writing in omniscient and needed to provide information the POV character didn't know in my WIP novel, that's why I decided to throw in some omniscient with 3rd-limited. I've noticed that many published authors do it (I saw it in the first Harry Potter and the novel I just read).

So if you know the rule and consciously break it, is it wrong or creative freedom? If it makes the reading better, it can't be wrong.

So if you know the rule and consciously break it, is it wrong or creative freedom? If it makes the reading better, it can't be wrong.

In short, anything that works is, by definition, acceptable. Whereas anything that fails is simply considered 'evidence' that the guidelines exist for a reason.

Again, that's an example of understand the rules before you break them so you know what you're risking. As long as you walk into the situation with your eyes wide open, you're making an informed choice, rather than simply stumbling over your own ignorance.

You have a large set of rules. Do you have any references -- admitting that I do not -- that anyone else has the same understanding that you do?

If you want local sources, I'm pretty sure that Ernest, Ross and I all agree with Switch's overview. His "rules" are simply a more detailed explanation which incorporates ALL the objections which have been raised as we've discussed this, so it's not part of the various definitions.

But there are a TON of online articles and books about POV in writing. There are so many, in fact, that it's difficult keeping up with all the ways they contradict one another! :(

Do you have any references

I found this article that's pretty good. But not perfect. https://thewritepractice.com/point-of-view-guide/

One odd thing about it is that he says there are 4 types of POVs: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and omniscient. But later, under "Third Person Point of View" he says, "There are two types of this point of view" and he lists 3rd-person omniscient and 3rd-person limited. So in the beginning, he has omniscient as a separate POV. Yet under 3rd-person, he has two kinds: limited and omniscient.

In my write-up, I did not list omniscient as a separate POV because there's 3rd-person omniscient AND 1st-person omniscient. But I wouldn't argue against calling omniscient a POV.

Here's my favorite article on head-hopping and omniscient: https://thewritepractice.com/head-hopping-and-hemingway/

Third person limited, in which the author reports the thoughts of only one character

True within a scene. But you can change POV character at a scene change in limited. That's called 3rd-person limited multiple.

Which only proves your point, Uther. There are more than 3 POVs, only they weren't the ones you listed. In short, you're comparing apples to oranges and declaring them both pears. 'D

It would be interesting to list all of the POVs.

There are 3 POVs: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. And then there are variations within them.

1st POV

Uses the pronoun "I". The first-person narrator is a character in the story. He can only tell the reader what he knows, sees, thinks, etc. The world is seen through that character's eyes, so when you describe something, it's the way they see it.

The story is usually told from a single character's POV, but novels have been written with switching the 1st-person narrator at a scene change. I don't believe it's done often.

The narrator can be the protagonist (e.g., Huck Finn) or a secondary character (e.g., Ishmael in "Moby Dick").

The narrator can also be an all-knowing omniscient narrator (e.g., Death in "The Book Thief"). In this case, the narrator can tell the reader what every character is thinking, feeling, etc. But only the omni narrator, not direct thoughts by the character.

The narrator should have a unique voice. Think of the difference between Huck Finn and Holden Caulfield ("Catcher in the Rye").

The narrator can be an unreliable narrator (e.g., "Gone Girl").

2nd POV

Uses the pronoun "you". It puts the reader in the story. It's not common. There are some novels using it, but it's mostly used in short stories. And it's used in games like Dungeons and Dragons and how-to manuals.

3rd POV

Uses the pronoun "he". This is probably the most common POV for novels. Like first-person, there are variations.

In 3rd-limited, the story is told from a single character's POV. It has the same constraints as first-person. You can only tell the reader what that character knows, sees, thinks, etc. And the world is described through that character's perspective.

You can also write third-limited from multiple characters' POVs. It's called 3rd-limited multiple. You change POVs at a scene change. Some say each POV is told with a different voice. I don't agree. If you want to do that, write it in first.

3rd-person omniscient is told by an all-knowing narrator. He can tell the reader what each and every character is thinking, feeling, etc., and even stuff no character knows (which I believe is why it's used in SciFi and Fantasy). His is the only POV in the story. He can tell you what Character A is thinking, but you can't get into Char A's head directly.

second person consists entirely of "he" and "she" pronouns.

No. 2nd-person is the "you" pronoun.

No. 2nd-person is the "you" pronoun.

Sorry. You're correct. I was WAY off base on that one!

I prefer the alternate, which is to simply NEVER reveal what anyone is thinking.

Since I write in closed 3rd-limited, 99% of my POV character's thoughts are in the narrative.

Since I write in closed 3rd-limited, 99% of my POV character's thoughts are in the narrative.

Understood, and I frequently use the technique myself, since it's SO easy, but I've always considered 'telling' readers what someone is thinking to be poor story telling. Instead, it's worth the extra effort to reveal their thoughts through other means (i.e. "SHOW"ing what they're thinking through their actions).

Thus I'm far from perfect, and hardly an ideal candidate for throwing stones are literary glass houses, but ... 'D